397 réponses à ce sujet

[Fade9wayz]

Most probably aren't stationary though, just like most, if not all, black holes probably spin as momentum is conserved when a neutron star collapses.

If, or when, we ever find or create a wormhole, their utility of transport through space would probably come with the catch 22 of also transporting through time.

Which creates some interesting situations, if you think about it. For example, if you have a wormhole that connects our solar system to an inhabitable system in a galaxy a billion light years away and several billion years in the future, and if it is a traversible wormhole and you can go both ways through it, you would technically have an interstellar and intertemporal (for lack of a better word) civilization.

(/laughs) Damn, I would hate being the director trying to explain all that in a few cutscenes

[MrFob]

Most probably aren't stationary though, just like most, if not all, black holes probably spin as momentum is conserved when a neutron star collapses.

If, or when, we ever find or create a wormhole, their utility of transport through space would probably come with the catch 22 of also transporting through time.

Which creates some interesting situations, if you think about it. For example, if you have a wormhole that connects our solar system to an inhabitable system in a galaxy a billion light years away and several billion years in the future, and if it is a traversible wormhole and you can go both ways through it, you would technically have an interstellar and intertemporal (for lack of a better word) civilization.

 

That would be very neat. If they are exactly 1 billion ly apart and 1 billion years apart, at least one civ can theoretically "directly" communicate to the other via light signals without using the wormhole at all.

 

"Hey Mike, Johnny from the other side just signaled a billion years ago that you should bring a six pack of beer on your way back through the wormhole."

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I still say that since they're going with no canon ending....

 

The Illusive Man has had full access to the reaper tech needed to get us there. His team on the Derelict Reaper in ME2 could have taken scans of the reaper's mass effect core and FTL drive. Thus we would have the means of doing this lengthy travel without discharging. If we have the plans, we can build it. An ark to preserve the remnants of galactic civilization is something TIM would get behind, and he was banging an Asari Matriarch weekly.

 

I know it's a bit of a stretch, but since Bioware is weaseling this plot to get out of dealing with the endings anyway....

 

Asari Matriarch (smoking cigarette): That was great, Jack. Say, you haven't happened to come across anything new lately in your study of the reapers, have you?

 

TIM (taking a drink of bourbon): As a matter of fact, dear, I have. Let me show you. (grabs remote shows reaper drive and mass effect core drawings on the screen)

 

Asari Matriarch: What if I told you that the Council really did take the warnings about the reapers seriously and are working on a contingency plan to save galactic civilization? A drive like that would make it possible.

 

TIM: Really? What exactly are they doing?

 

Asari Matriarch: They determined that there is no way to defeat the reapers conventionally, so they're building an ark and will select the 100,000 of the best and brightest from each race and go to Andromeda if the reapers invade. We even have the cluster selected.

 

TIM: An excellent contingency plan, but I have other ideas. I think we can stop the reapers. But I'll give you the plans, and I'll also send a team of scientists, engineers, and workers to help with the project: The same team that built the SR-2 on one condition - that they're among those going to Andromeda.

 

Asari Matriarch (running her fingers up and down his chest): Thank you.

 

TIM: (Smiles that evil smile and lights a cigarette)

 

This solution solves two of Mac Walters' problems: Getting us to Andromeda, and getting Cerberus to Andromeda. Cerberus is an idea. You can't kill an idea. Besides, we need human mooks to kill and not feel bad about it.

[MrFob]

<assumes James Earl Jones voice>Noooooooo!!!! Please don't make Cerberus that basis for the new setting.

 

Besides, even if he wasn't indoctrinated, I don't see TIM taking all the other races (including Krogan). If he were to build the ark, he'd not just do it with the council and put us in direct competition with all those pesky aliens again.

[LinksOcarina]

<assumes James Earl Jones voice>Noooooooo!!!! Please don't make Cerberus that basis for the new setting.

 

Besides, even if he wasn't indoctrinated, I don't see TIM taking all the other races (including Krogan). If he were to build the ark, he'd not just do it with the council and put us in direct competition with all those pesky aliens again.

 

Cerberus will be involved in some form. They are too much of a good, human antagonist to throw away so easily.

 

Of course, they need to make them less than they were. Keep the moral-grey veener seen in Mass Effect 2, however fabricated, intact. 

[MrFob]

Cerberus will be involved in some form. They are too much of a good, human antagonist to throw away so easily.

 

Of course, they need to make them less than they were. Keep the moral-grey veener seen in Mass Effect 2, however fabricated, intact. 

 

Ok, this is derailing the thread but I just want to say, if the point of Andromeda is to leave baggage from the MW, like the endings, the reapers and the old team behind, I'd want them to definitely also leave the inconsistent plot-device fabrication cancer that is Cerberus behind.

 

If we need human enemies, rather give me merc bands and other criminals to fight again, like in ME2 or whatever. But I'd rather see the reapers gain than these idiots.

 

Ok, back to wormholes though. Sorry (see what they do to me )

[Iakus]

Cerberus will be involved in some form. They are too much of a good, human antagonist to throw away so easily.

 

Of course, they need to make them less than they were. Keep the moral-grey veener seen in Mass Effect 2, however fabricated, intact. 

Well, they're a human antagonist, anyway...

 

But frankly, I'm sick of Cerberus being the go-to human villains, changing their appearance to be whatever the writers need them to be in a given situation.

[Kabooooom]

That would be very neat. If they are exactly 1 billion ly apart and 1 billion years apart, at least one civ can theoretically "directly" communicate to the other via light signals without using the wormhole at all.

"Hey Mike, Johnny from the other side just signaled a billion years ago that you should bring a six pack of beer on your way back through the wormhole."

That's a very interesting idea. I hadn't thought of that. And causality would never be broken. Even though you use the wormhole to travel "to the past", you could never use it to your advantage since both ends are set relative to each other.

It truly highlights just how relative time really is - the constancy of the "present" is pure illusion.

[LinksOcarina]

Ok, this is derailing the thread but I just want to say, if the point of Andromeda is to leave baggage from the MW, like the endings, the reapers and the old team behind, I'd want them to definitely also leave the inconsistent plot-device fabrication cancer that is Cerberus behind.

 

If we need human enemies, rather give me merc bands and other criminals to fight again, like in ME2 or whatever. But I'd rather see the reapers gain than these idiots.

 

Ok, back to wormholes though.

Assuming the point is to leave anything behind. That is again expectations put forth by the fanbase, not BioWare. Who knows what the real point is, were projecting and speculating.

 

As to the problem of Cerberus, it's a named band of criminals to fight. That gives them more marquee value, than something like the Black Dynasty or whatever weird Merc band they create.

 

It honestly doesn't matter too much in the end, since it all depends on how such elements are used, but i'm not discounting anything except two things from the transition to Andromeda, that Shepard is gone, and the Reapers are not in the picture. Everything else is fair game. 

[Dantriges]

Cerberus will be involved in some form. They are too much of a good, human antagonist to throw away so easily.

 

Huh what?   Their troops were ok. When they were involved in the story, logic jumped so fast out of the window it broke the lightspeed barrier.

[Kabooooom]

Assuming the point is to leave anything behind. That is again expectations put forth by the fanbase, not BioWare. Who knows what the real point is, were projecting and speculating .

Well, I've said it before and I will say it again - we correctly predicted the move to Andromeda a year ago based primarily on the assumption that Bioware would want to completely divorce the setting from the prior trilogy to avoid the ending debacle.

And I don't think that was a lucky guess. It ended up being correct, and the most logical reason for the change of setting is exactly that reason - otherwise they could just set it in the Milky Way. But they don't want to deal with the endings.

[Il Divo]

Ok, this is derailing the thread but I just want to say, if the point of Andromeda is to leave baggage from the MW, like the endings, the reapers and the old team behind, I'd want them to definitely also leave the inconsistent plot-device fabrication cancer that is Cerberus behind.

 

If we need human enemies, rather give me merc bands and other criminals to fight again, like in ME2 or whatever. But I'd rather see the reapers gain than these idiots.

 

Ok, back to wormholes though. Sorry (see what they do to me )

 

Honestly, I'm treating ME:A as a complete reboot as much as is possible. Outside of the bare minimum knowledge (Ex: what  Krogan is), I'm going to treat it as a completely new franchise without regard to past codex entries, plot, or characters. 

[Kabooooom]

I'd just like to reiterate that using a wormhole to get to Andromeda is the least space magicky way to reach Andromeda. In fact, zero space magic is actually involved as wormholes are real predictions of general relativity (and so far every single prediction has been verified and zero have been disproven...it is only a matter of time til we find a wormhole).

If anything, it would just be space-convenient. Too convenient. Which would mean Bioware would have to explain the convenience away with regards to the story or it would be a huge elephant in the room. My guess is the Remnant will somehow be involved with it.

[Farangbaa]

So, the Remnants.

Leviathan...

[MrFob]

@Kabooooom: Yea, though it only works if the destination of destination of the wormhole is far enough away to "compensate" for the time difference, right? If the destination was one light week closer to the origin, the origin civ could effectively communicate the numbers for next weeks lotto jackpot to the destination civ.

Kinda makes you wonder if there would be some physical limitation to where wormholes can go and to what time.

 

@ LinksOcarina: Gonna shelve this discussion for now and leave it for another thread.

[Il Divo]

The trilogy ending wouldn't be an over cooked burger as it's not broken, it would be a burger with banana's, maple syrup pancakes and a patty of soy. You don't have to go back to fix anything, just adjust how you move forward after eating it. So in this case, in order for the galaxy to continue you need to choose the ending choices that make the most sense for continuing on with the MW as canon. This is what Bioware / Mass Effects future needs to be.

 

 

Well, you'll have to tell that to the Retake movement. The outrage caused, at least here on the forums, indicated pretty well that the endings were beyond charred, especially after the EC. 

 

But my point is, if you're still interested in exploring MW galaxy, that's completely fine. But that's a completely different beast from saying "Bioware needs to learn from their mistakes, stop running away, and fix the Mass Effect endings". That's not likely to happen, to anyone's satisfaction. The best case scenario would still be forgetting about the ending and moving on to whatever independent plot they would decide to focus on in the MW. 

 

In other words: I think you're operating from a very different premise than Drone. His is that ME4 needs to fix ME3. Yours seems to be to forget about the reception and focus on other stories told after ME3, as I understand. 

 

Turning off some players will happen no matter what choice they choose, specific canonized ending to going to another galaxy. But out of it all what is best for continuing the IP? If they are going to continue with the universe, then the decisions of the MW had to be made, and it would have to be a canonized choices to determine how it fits with the stories in other galaxies, because eventually there will be contact. 

 

 

The problem here is that we're assuming we have to return to the main universe at some point. That's not required at all, especially depending on ME:A's reception. If ME:A is released to an outstanding reception (I know, try not to laugh), the push for going back to the main universe will be diminished.

 

So for all the choices that survive the Reaping, they didn't just mysteriously forget they sent off an Ark to Andromeda. You don't think they would then try to reach out to that Ark to say we are ok, but more so to set up a support structure of communication? We are willing to wait months or years to communicate with our own probes of our system that are far out, and sure it wouldn't be a problem here. Because now we have just won the Reaper war and also sent out an Ark to another galaxy which is now a great extension to our empire.

 

 

Possible, sure, but this still has a number of assumptions, namely that we'll even be able to contact the main universe. Until we know how we even get to Andromeda, neither of us can say.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

So, the Remnants.

Leviathan...

 

"You're just a big stupid cuttlefish!"

[Il Divo]

 

If BW decided to never make another game then your decisions would stand for how that IP was left off. The issue arises when they decided to continue the universe and decided to ignore what has already happened, as they occurred and they would effect both galaxies at large. Because if the MW survives the Reapers then I would believe that they would not abandon their people of the Ark, with reasons why depending on ending choices.

 

 

Again, see my previous post. At this time, we have no idea of Andromeda's context. We can't say anything about what relation we will (or won't) have to this alternate galaxy. And even if we do somehow make contact, I suspect they'll have a much easier time dealing with the ending variations in a completely new galaxy rather than throwing us smack dab in the center of the MW galaxy with the Citadel, etc. 

 

So if they continued Jade Empire, I would fully expect them to take into account the previous game otherwise what's the point of using that IP? They might as well just make stand alone games that are all variations of each other but not the same world. Just like the next ME game, it makes far more sense that if they want to keep it in the same universe then address the ending of the trilogy and move forward, or just create it as a remake, retake variation with no connection at all new game, aka completely different game.

 

 

This doesn't address my criticism though. Once more: how is a spin off any different from simply leaving a franchise alone? 

 

Mass Effect 3's ending, terrible or not, has a series of implications in terms of what happens to the universe. Those implications are completely untouched whether Bioware never makes an ME4 or whether they create a spin off so far removed that they can't have any relation to each other. Bioware has not invalidated your decisions or told you that they don't matter with respect to the MW galaxy (see the Rachni decision in ME3). Sequel or spin off, your story is left in the exact same state, hence why it's a nonsensical criticism. The implications of your decision-making still exist in both scenarios. 

[Kabooooom]

@Kabooooom: Yea, though it only works if the destination of destination of the wormhole is far enough away to "compensate" for the time difference, right? If the destination was one light week closer to the origin, the origin civ could effectively communicate the numbers for next weeks lotto jackpot to the destination civ.
Kinda makes you wonder if there would be some physical limitation to where wormholes can go and to what time.

Well, in that situation (if I am understanding your scenario correctly), causality would still not be violated as neither party could ever communicate information back in time relative to each other. Ie - people in the past could find the lotto numbers, send that info to the future through the wormhole, but the future travelers could never arrive through the wormhole prior to the information being sent and the lotto being won.

Unless, of course, there were two wormholes.

Causality does run into issues if you stumble across a wormhole. Lets say that 80 million years ago, a wormhole is created somewhere in our solar system. The other end connects to somewhere near a supermassive black hole. That mouth of the wormhole would age more slowly, relative to the one in our solar system. The effect, over time, is that both ends are disconnected in space AND time. If the effect is large enough then the wormhole could be utilized for travel back in time. And the effect would become large enough very quickly.

Now, lets say that human beings stumble across the wormhole in the solar system. They enter it, and emerge near the black hole...somewhere around 80 million years in the past. Lets say they can't re-enter it, so they decide to make a relativistic journey back to Earth. Well, if the black hole is in the Milky Way, they could make the journey and arrive long before they ever left Earth. They would discover, potentially, an Earth in the Cretaceous period.

Stephen Hawking has written about time travel via wormhole, as the laws of physics do not expressly prevent time travel into the past via wormholes. The implications of that are...unsettling to say the least. It was known long before that, that weird temporal alignments in relativity can be observed - such as when two distant travelers on other sides of the universe move relative to each other in different directions. It is likely that past, "present" and future exist simultaneously and the present is an illusion. But I have no idea how nature prevents causality violations if backwards time travel is possible.

Perhaps your explanation of limiting where wormholes can connect to is the correct one. It would certainly be the most elegant.

[MrFob]

I was actually still running with this scenario:

 

Most probably aren't stationary though, just like most, if not all, black holes probably spin as momentum is conserved when a neutron star collapses.

If, or when, we ever find or create a wormhole, their utility of transport through space would probably come with the catch 22 of also transporting through time.

Which creates some interesting situations, if you think about it. For example, if you have a wormhole that connects our solar system to an inhabitable system in a galaxy a billion light years away and several billion years in the future, and if it is a traversible wormhole and you can go both ways through it, you would technically have an interstellar and intertemporal (for lack of a better word) civilization.

 

I think in order not to have causality issues, one of these 3 conditions must apply:

- The wormhole doesn't transport you through time at all

- The wormhole is only one directional and takes you into the future

- If a two way wormhole does transport through time, the two end-points must be more light years apart than the years of time travel that the wormhole allows

 

Because if none of these conditions are satisfied, we couldd have something like the following situation:

Place a = 0 ly at timeframe a = 0 y

Place b = +1 ly at timeframe b = +2 y

 

Now, Johnny can go through the wormhole, from a to b and thereby go 2 years into the future. There he tells Mike that exactly one day from now, he should receive a light signal from sent place a. He than sticks around for 2 days and writes down the numbers for the lotto jackpot, then he travels back to place and timeframe a.

Once back home, Johnny waits 364 days and then sends the light signal with the lotto numbers to Mike. That signal takes 1 year to travel to place b where Mike can receive it exactly at the time that Johnny told him to. That way, Mike will get the lotto numbers for the next day in his timeframe b.

One year and one day later, Johnny will come through the wormhole again to collect hiss share.

 

It's the perfect scam.

 

But yea, the whole time travel thing could cause really weird phenomena.

[Linkenski]

I think this won't be incorporated into ME:A's premise. I think the means of getting from Milky Way to Andromeda is via. a contrived, vaguely explain wormhole and Bioware misses every opportunity they have to make it seem more plausible than that, unless they've been lurking here and in the ARK theory threads (sorry, haven't read ARK theory yet. TL;DR)

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Impossible. Reapers don't have wormhole tech, or it wouldn't have taken them a year or so to get to the MW. They wouldn't even need to rely on mass relays at all, which would negate all of ME1's plot, and the Arrival dlc in ME2.

 

Edit: I amend that. If they were hiding one light-year away from  the MW, it would have caused one year to pass for us while they are in the wormhole, with the time dilation. But why use wormhole when you're only one light-year away? I'm pretty sure their FTL drive can cover that measly distance in one jump only. So that means they are hiding much further away. Time dilation still applies. I suppose they could wreck relativity even further with space magic to reduce time dilation though. That wouldn't make me happy. Oooh the inconcistencies piling up

I never said anything about wormhole technology. I was commenting on the finding ancient technology that gets us there. If that tech was Reaper in origin, the Reapers overlooking it makes sense since it is theirs and then the biggest problem of the ancient tech route is dealt with. 

[Nethershadow]

 

This solution solves two of Mac Walters' problems: Getting us to Andromeda, and getting Cerberus to Andromeda. Cerberus is an idea. You can't kill an idea. Besides, we need human mooks to kill and not feel bad about it.

But, but, I love Cerberus.

[Kabooooom]

I was actually still running with this scenario:


I think in order not to have causality issues, one of these 3 conditions must apply:
- The wormhole doesn't transport you through time at all
- The wormhole is only one directional and takes you into the future
- If a two way wormhole does transport through time, the two end-points must be more light years apart than the years of time travel that the wormhole allows

Because if none of these conditions are satisfied, we couldd have something like the following situation:
Place a = 0 ly at timeframe a = 0 y
Place b = +1 ly at timeframe b = +2 y

Now, Johnny can go through the wormhole, from a to b and thereby go 2 years into the future. There he tells Mike that exactly one day from now, he should receive a light signal from sent place a. He than sticks around for 2 days and writes down the numbers for the lotto jackpot, then he travels back to place and timeframe a.
Once back home, Johnny waits 364 days and then sends the light signal with the lotto numbers to Mike. That signal takes 1 year to travel to place b where Mike can receive it exactly at the time that Johnny told him to. That way, Mike will get the lotto numbers for the next day in his timeframe b.
One year and one day later, Johnny will come through the wormhole again to collect hiss share.

It's the perfect scam.

But yea, the whole time travel thing could cause really weird phenomena.

Ah, gotcha. Now I understand. Yea, it would almost necessitate the existence of a multiverse or parallel timelines, as otherwise a lottery jackbox paradox could potentially occur.

Alternatively, free will doesn't exist and Johnny could never actually decide not to write the letters down, therefore the way it happens is the way it happens.

A similar issue would render the grandfather paradox moot - your grandfather never actually died, therefore you know you never travelled in time to kill your grandfather - even if you had the intention to do so. This would imply like a trans-temporal flow of causality where time travelers actually interact with the timeline at all levels and no "change" could ever actually occur.

[SSV TBILISI]

I guess I have to stop reading this forum, there is a lot of possible spoilers.