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Eezo turns black holes into wormholes, apparently


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#101
Hanako Ikezawa

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Maybe there was some possibility of this before the trailer, but I dont really see any other alternative now. In the trailer, on the destination screen in the lower right is a destination labeled "ARK" in big, easily readable letters.

What's the more likely scenario here? Coincidence? Or that Bioware chose the most obvious narrative of all possibilities?

You give them too much credit, dude. Their stories are excellent, especially with regards to the characters, lore, and little details - but the underlying plots are NOT that deep.

Considering it was in all caps, an acronym comes to mind first. 

 

It's not the most obvious. Well, maybe to you it is since you think everything falls under Ark Theory, even things that have nothing to do with an ark. The Indoctrination Theorists thought that way too, and look how that turned out.

The most obvious possibility is going there after the Reaper War. 

 

Don't worry. If the go with Ark Theory, or at least have it happen before or during the Reaper War, I'll know better than to give them any credit when it comes to storytelling. Plus you give them credit to their lore yet hope for something that goes completely against it. 



#102
Fade9wayz

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He was probably referring to the possibility of creating micro black holes, which can occur when matter collides at extremely high energy levels, but quickly evaporate due to Hawking radiation. And thus far, no evidence of their existence has been found.

I am aware, It's hard not to be when living not so far from the particle accelerator  :D  The scale of what he was suggesting wasn't anything near micro though



#103
rapscallioness

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Yes, the possibility of creating black holes by the time of the ME series, and within the context of the fictional MEU. I'm well aware it has not been accomplished yet irl.

 

Come on, now.



#104
JoltDealer

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"Na’ali Vasir, president of the Asari Physical Society, responded today to the press release issued by physicist Darik Zol, who claimed a black hole can be turned into a galaxy-crossing wormhole merely by surrounding it with a thin layer of element zero. “There are a number of problems with this theory. First of all, element zero must be electrically charged to provide a negative dark energy field—where’s all that electricity going to come from? Second, to make this work, you would have to cross into a high time dilation zone of the black hole, rendering it a one-way gate. And finally, what about peer review? There has been no article submitted to a reputable journal to describe this research, and without such vetting, we must remain highly skeptical of the results.”

 

"Responding to recent asari criticisms of his black hole theory, Dr. Darik Zol vowed that he will personally confirm it by venturing towards black hole A0620-00, in the Attican Traverse. Calling for element zero donations from the rest of his clan, the scientist professed his readiness to die for his cause. “By spreading the element zero dust in a spherical shell near the black hole, I will open a gate to whatever spacetime point this black hole is connected to. Not only will I usher a new era of discovery and wisdom for the galaxy, and honor for the volus race—I will also be the first to enter this wormhole.”

 

Physicist Darik Zol, claiming he has received “not ideal, but sufficient” donations of element zero dust to open a wormhole around black hole A0620-00, departed today amid fanfare and heartfelt cheering from the general public on Irune. Ten Volus merchant scouts accompanied Dr. Zol as honor guards to the nearest mass relay. Dr. Zol is attempting to open a wormhole to another part of the galaxy by spreading charged element zero dust in the vicinity of the event horizon. Responding to public worries, council representatives noted that that due to gravitational time dilation around the black hole, the results of Dr. Zol’s experiments will not be known for another one or two million years. “He is essentially going on a one-way suicide mission,” said the statement from the council secretariat, adding: “it’s a sad day for science.”

 

You know what,  this is an explanation I could accept for being in another galaxy, why it's a one way trip, and even why the Reapers didn't follow (they're not that crazy)

 

Yes, they've used worse plot devices.  :D

 

Pity he only took ten other volus with him

 

Can you imagine running into a planet populated by nothing other than delusional, so-called "biotic gods"?


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#105
Hanako Ikezawa

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I wonder if we'd be able to make primordial black holes. Unlike normal black holes, that form from the gravitational collapse of massive neutron stars, primordial black holes are created by just creating a very dense section of matter. Since the Mass Effect is capable of increasing or decreasing mass, if it was focused enough it would be able to increase or decrease density since density is merely the measure of mass in an area. So keep feeding the area mass to be crushed down by the mass effect, and eventually a primordial black hole should be able to form.



#106
rapscallioness

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Well, the mass effect energy is supposed to be able to manipulate the "fabric of both space and time". So far, we have not seen it used in relation to time.

 

There may, and should, be more to it than simply a faster way to get around the MW. If you're talking about something that can manipulate both space and time.



#107
rapscallioness

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Ah, the sad truth, though, is that this is all fan made spec. I think it has possibilities considering what we have to choose from, but God only knows what BW is coming/came up with..



#108
Anacronian Stryx

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I had an idea about Bioware using Haestrom's star and the weird happenings there as an explanation - you know the star was dissolving and ejecting dark energy because a natural wormhole is forming inside it or something like that.



#109
Hanako Ikezawa

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I had an idea about Bioware using Haestrom's star and the weird happenings there as an explanation - you know the star was dissolving and ejecting dark energy because a natural wormhole is forming inside it or something like that.

If there was a wormhole in Haestrom, wouldn't the dark energy be sucked in rather than ejected?

I guess if the dark energy was coming from the other side of the wormhole it would be though. 



#110
rapscallioness

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I had an idea about Bioware using Haestrom's star and the weird happenings there as an explanation - you know the star was dissolving and ejecting dark energy because a natural wormhole is forming inside it or something like that.

 

Oh, I forgot about that.

 

Wouldn't it be funny if they actually did do something with all that dark energy stuff they were building up to? Gianni in ME2 talking about the rise in interest of dark energy, or dark matter...I forget the exact terminology. But she was a corporate cop. So, there could have been some private corporate interests looking into it.

 

It would not be a motivation for the Reapers and all that stuff from Drew. However, BW could tie it in.



#111
Anacronian Stryx

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If there was a wormhole in Haestrom, wouldn't the dark energy be sucked in rather than ejected?

I guess if the dark energy was coming from the other side of the wormhole it would be though. 

Or maybe wormholes create dark energy - who knows *shrugs*



#112
Anacronian Stryx

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Oh, I forgot about that.

 

Wouldn't it be funny if they actually did do something with all that dark energy stuff they were building up to? Gianni in ME2 talking about the rise in interest of dark energy, or dark matter...I forget the exact terminology. But she was a corporate cop. So, there could have been some private corporate interests looking into it.

 

It would not be a motivation for the Reapers and all that stuff from Drew. However, BW could tie it in.

I do have a suspicion they at least wanna address the dark energy stuff in some way.



#113
N7Jamaican

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Even if this theory is true, doesn't mean ARK isn't.. I mean, one of the dev's tweeted the ARKCON logo on a t-shirt.  One can support there is an "ark" of some sorts, perhaps this "ark" went through the "wormhole" either sometime before ME3 but end of ME2 (which would make it interesting, because, we would have NO clue have happened) or we flee in ME3.



#114
MrFob

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We're not creating a black hole....  Cheese holes on the other hand...   <_<


But if the holes are in the middle of the cheese and no light can get to them, aren't they black holes as well? :? :o
 

(/Scratches head) There were some very good points made in previous posts, but if we are going to suffer from time dilation, and be stuck in Andromeda anyway, I fail to see what advantages it brings compared to a relativistic near-light speed travel in cryopods, beyond ''Ooh lookit! Shiny wormhole!" . 
 
Either by wormhole or the long scenic route, the ship sent to Andromeda will be massive, just accounting the safe required population for each organic species and the colonization logistic. Just the task of selecting the "lucky" travelers is a major political and financial headache demanding the utmost secrecy. 
 
The tech for a relativistic travel seems available, and we'd be sure not to end up in the middle of some sun/pulsar/black-hole/whatever else that would crush and cook us beyond any Lazarus project silliness. Let's remember that an asari dreadnought can have a crew up to 10 000, and that includes fuel tanks, living quarters, food and water, etc. 
Building a ship of that size, or sightly bigger to accommodate a safe number of selected genetically diverse and fertile refugees, isn't so inconceivable, a retrofitting might be enough, for all we know so far. Hide the expenses for the Ark amidst the Crucible's, which is officially known as a massive drain of resources; build the Ark so that it has stealth and can transport everything the colonists will need, including food, water, fuel, vehicles, tools, grain, weapons...; conserve energy and resources with keeping the refugees in cryopods, only awakening a selected few from time to time for maintenance; and sling-shot the Ark around some black-hole towards Andromeda to get to near-light speed without using up fuel. 
 
I'll admit at least, that this eezo-created wormhole theory has the merit of not being pulled out of absolutely nowhere at the last moment. Viva Volus and goofy space magic!
 
About the proposition of some convenient wormhole appearing out of nowhere and conveniently sending the right amount of ships with a convenient genetic diversity for all species directly to Andromeda? How about we have Dr Who and Santa flying in to the rescue instead? It's shiny and goofy too.


The reason why I like the wormhole idea better then the long route is the following:
1) The ME universe has no power sources we know of, which can sustain relativistic speeds for 2.5 million years. Even the prothean power sources failed after 50.000 years.
2) If we were to retro-engineer reaper tech to get us there within 230 years, that opens up a whole slew of other questions, that would need to be answered and the game would basically have to take place after the ME3 ending (which I am still convinced it won't).
3) Converting a black hole to wormhole via eezo - while still an obvious plot device - at least uses the one familiar substance that is capable to make everything work in the first place in order to handwave another contrivance. I find this preferable, especially since the current theories of wormholes and black holes are not unrelated anyway.

So, it's just my personal opinion but I consider the wormhole thing the least inelegant solution for a necessary contrivance within the ME universe.

BTW, why are people discussing how to make black holes? There are plenty of them around in the Milky Way of the ME universe, so there is no need to make one, "just" to convert one.

#115
N7Jamaican

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But if the holes are in the middle of the cheese and no light can get to them, aren't they black holes as well? :? :o
 

The reason why I like the wormhole idea better then the long route is the following:
1) The ME universe has no power sources we know of, which can sustain relativistic speeds for 2.5 million years. Even the prothean power sources failed after 50.000 years.
2) If we were to retro-engineer reaper tech to get us there within 230 years, that opens up a whole slew of other questions, that would need to be answered and the game would basically have to take place after the ME3 ending (which I am still convinced it won't).
3) Converting a black hole to wormhole via eezo - while still an obvious plot device - at least uses the one familiar substance that is capable to make everything work in the first place in order to handwave another contrivance. I find this preferable, especially since the current theories of wormholes and black holes are not unrelated anyway.

So, it's just my personal opinion but I consider the wormhole thing the least inelegant solution for a necessary contrivance within the ME universe.

BTW, why are people discussing how to make black holes? There are plenty of them around in the Milky Way of the ME universe, so there is no need to make one, "just" to convert one.

 

I would like wormhole with a time dilation.



#116
CrutchCricket

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That is a load of crap. By virtue of existing in our universe, they are subject to the same laws of physics that govern us and our technology. That means they cannot be perpetual motion machines who run forever and ever without restocking on fuel, power, ammunition for their weapons and material to make repairs and make husks.

Element zero is not used up as fuel during the reaction/whatever makes it work. Care to try again?
 

Nowhere has it been stated they CAN adapt Reaper drives OR Reaper cores, which is completely beside the point because at Reaper speeds the journey will take 230 years, which is still way, way, WAY too long.

Your proof that it's impossible? The thanix was reverse engineered. Cronos station is powered by the core of the baby Reaper. Lore would seem to indicate the opposite of what you want to claim.
 

And "flying on a burst schedule"? Do I understand you correctly that what you actually mean with this is that they will stop now and then and generate more power over a few centuries, then continuing? If so, you do understand that this will only increase the power draw from the cryopods, completely negating any benefit to stopping in the first place?

Hardly, if it's all automated. I didn't suggest waking the crew at any point.
 

The people who has to increase the ship's size to accomodate for another millenium of consumables would care. Time is definitely not irrelevant. If anything, time is THE most relevant factor. Time is what causes the resource requirements to balloon to impossible levels. The only way to reduce time is to increase efficiency, and that requires, ironically, centuries if not millennias of innovation.

If they're in cryo the whole time, the resources are nowhere near as exorbitant as you claim.

There is one other possibility- there are no people going at all. Just fertiziled embryos, or DNA sequences allowing for the regrowth and population of species. I think it's unlikely they'll go this route, but this would cut down on supplies even more.
 

Which brings me to the "Wait Equation" - there is no point in building an enormous, resource-hogging intergalactic ship many times more expensive than the Crucible that will take 500 years to reach Andromeda when 250 years later a ship only a fraction of the size and many times faster will be produced, catching up to and racing past the first ship.

Source?
 

And sending the ARKCON colossus during the Reaper War? That implies all the relevant tech was developed in a manner of months (unlike the Crucible, which was based on ancient blueprints millions of years old), that all parts were fabricated and then assembled in a manner of months. Simultaneously with the Reapers systematic destruction of the galaxy's infrastructure and economy. Concurrently with the construction of the Crucible, which was noted for being an astronomical drain of money, materials and personnel.
 
You. Cannot. Be. Serious.

I assure you I am.

The Ark developed in a matter of months? Not necessarily. It could've started years ago as a pet project that was appropriated and repurposed once the Reaper threat emerged (and I mean before the war. It'd be nice to retcon the Council as less than total idiots). The relevant tech to make it actually feasibile (Reaper drive, core, maybe even Crucible components/theory) were the finishing touches.
 

It's not a waste of material when you consider the time expense in consumables and the fact that a lot of star systems may be ineligible targets for drive discharge, for example star systems with planets that lack magnetic fields. The size of the planet also determines how long discharging takes, and the size of the ship determines how often it has to discharge. The ARKCON monstrosity would have to stop to discharge as often as a pregnant woman has to stop to go to the bathroom.
 
This is of course beside the point that discharging tech and better long-range FTL comes really handy when you're charting unknown space in search of relays to unlock, thereby enabling faster travel across the galaxy. You know, what Mass Effect: Andromeda could have been about if it was called Mass Effect: Milky Way instead.

You continue to ignore potential innovation in that area. The rest of your point would apply if the pre-Reaper war galaxy was interested in exploring and advancing beyond the relay network. Clearly they were not. Or at least it wasn't the mainstream school of thought. The relays were convenient and numerous enough, as were the discharge points. The point remains, the fact that no one bothered to invent alternatives that saw widespread use does not mean they couldn't or that someone didn't, in relative isolation.
 

Even with any of those parts, the Reaper tech is so advanced in comparison that it's not like Earth is going to just say hey, lets reverse engineer this because we can? None of the races even understood anything about the technology of the gates, which strongly suggests they would know jack about dissecting Reaper tech. And even if they could, how many years do you think it would take them to reverse engineer such advanced tech? Then they still need the time to add it into the design of the Ark and adjust for that. 
 
Cerberus had to allow themselves to get indoctrinated among a host of atrocities to even learn from Reaper partners that were partially willing.
 
So no, the Ark would still not have Reaper tech if it was to leave anytime before the trilogy.

Turians managed to reverse engineer the thanix just fine. Despite pretty much everyone in the series being complacent morons, you underestimate human ingenuity.



#117
rapscallioness

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Even if this theory is true, doesn't mean ARK isn't.. I mean, one of the dev's tweeted the ARKCON logo on a t-shirt.  One can support there is an "ark" of some sorts, perhaps this "ark" went through the "wormhole" either sometime before ME3 but end of ME2 (which would make it interesting, because, we would have NO clue have happened) or we flee in ME3.

 

Well, yeah. We would still need an Ark to get through it. With all our stuff. As much as we can carry, at any rate.

 

I would actually rather flee. Just because it would be more dramatic for me. They kind of did that in the ME3 intro. It was sad and all, but I didn't really feel much connection to that ME Earth. Even with the kid. It was sad, but--eh.

 

Leaving the ME/MW, no Fleeing for our lives from the MW--that's gonna be emotional for me. Precisely because I do love that ME MW. But we'd be leaving Shep to handle all that madness, just as Shep had to leave Anderson on Earth to handle that madness.

 

It would bring alot of emotions such as anger at having to leave. Sadness. Guilt. Feeling like we're abandoning the entire ME/MW, and all we've come to know and love. Heading out towards who knows what..



#118
shepskisaac

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Why? The level of technology required for such a journey hasn't been achieved in the Mass Effect universe, not even by the Reapers, and they're 1 billion years ahead of everyone else.

? Reaper engines power is seemingly unlimited and they don't need to discharge. I mean, it doesn't mean it was well explained or introduced, but it already is part of ME3 lore. Reverse-engineering of Reaper tech has been a constant thing in the Trilogy. Last remaining thing is cryo-freezing which has been brought up multiple times. All of this has been at least mentioned compared to possible wormhole methods. Obviously Bioware never thought about Andromeda during the developement of the trilogy, but they actually do have all the "ingredients" in it to make the journey to it plausible.


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#119
BabyPuncher

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Space is also transparent, allowing unhindered vision for billions and billions of light years

 

This would only be the case if you had an ideal vision mechanism, which only exist in textbooks. All real vision mechanisms have limited resolutions. Even massive objects such as stars become invisible at enough distance.



#120
Kabooooom

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Considering it was in all caps, an acronym comes to mind first.

It's not the most obvious. Well, maybe to you it is since you think everything falls under Ark Theory, even things that have nothing to do with an ark. The Indoctrination Theorists thought that way too, and look how that turned out.
The most obvious possibility is going there after the Reaper War.

Don't worry. If the go with Ark Theory, or at least have it happen before or during the Reaper War, I'll know better than to give them any credit when it comes to storytelling. Plus you give them credit to their lore yet hope for something that goes completely against it.

*eyeroll*. First off, as myself and others have pointed out to you countless times, the most reasonable lore-based explanations for how a true intergalactic ark would work do not, by definition, break the lore.

Second, as I have again pointed out to you countless times, ark theory is NOT about an intergalactic ark, but rather the CONCEPT of utilizing an ark to preserve galactic civilizations in the face of an uncertain fate from the Reapers. Getting there via wormhole is perfectly consistent with the idea. Really, I am rather quite tired of knocking down your straw men since you can't construct a reasonable argument to the contrary without one.

Finally, I apologize for giving the impression that I am an absolute supporter of the concept of an ark. Yes, I was one of the first people here to predict both an ark concept AND the move to Andromeda long ago. But, truth be told - like you I would have preferred a true sequel set in the MW and a canonized or homogenized ending...at least at first. At this point, my objection to you is not because I support that I think the story should utilize an ark concept, but that I think at this point it is rather quite naive to believe that Bioware will NOT choose the ark concept when there is very suggestive evidence that they will. Including, for Christssakes, a destination labeled "ARK".

Railing against it, honestly, kind of comes off like a four year old throwing a tantrum. Best accept it, man, or you will hate Andromeda.

Hope that cleared some things up.

#121
Dantriges

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Eezo breaks down after centuries of use. Not a problem during normal operations but you are going non stop for centuries. Also you still need fuel for the engines and your fusion reactor doesn´t work, just because the mechanic screams bosh´tet at it.

 

Most of the stuff we know about the Reaper has the "it seems" tag attached to it. Even the don´t discharge is written as"it appears that reapers don´t need to discharge."



#122
The Hierophant

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Pity he only took ten other volus with him

Fight me.

#123
Iakus

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Ah, the sad truth, though, is that this is all fan made spec. I think it has possibilities considering what we have to choose from, but God only knows what BW is coming/came up with..


"Resources"

It'a all a matter of resources.
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#124
LinksOcarina

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That thing's important, whatever it is.

 

My guess, it's the gateway to Andromeda.

 

Perhaps it's found technology; or re-purposed tech after the fact. Who knows. 



#125
dreamgazer

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My guess, it's the gateway to Andromeda.


I think so too. Have since the first time I saw it. Something about the light in the center screams "super-relay that's totally not a relay" to me.