397 réponses à ce sujet

[shodiswe]

I can't say it makes any sense....

[CrutchCricket]

Didn't one of the sources in the Citadel DLC basically say that the Reapers did exist? I would presume some of that tech salvaged by Soverign would be confiscated, as we saw in the Leviathan DLC, for other purposes as well.

Indeed. There is a marked lack of mention as to what happened to Sovereign's core or drive. We know the turians got the thanix, and we know random pieces are still being cleaned up by the time of ME2  with one eventually ending up in Bryson's lab. Obviously they didn't plan for this but the gap is there for their use.

 

1) Eezo degenerates with use and it doesn't generate propulsion, it just increases the local speed of light that technically enables FTL speeds. In order to actually move you need conventional fuel like helium 3 or antimatter, both of which require storage. This is in the codex, have you tried reading it?
 
2) Never said it's absolutely impossible, I said it's impossible in the timescale you posit. If ME:A takes place 1000 years after ME3, I am more than willing to believe the galactic level of technology has progressed to a point where they can reliably reverse-engineer the Reapers most complex technology like drivecores.
 
3) If they don't wake the crew, the increased power draw from the cryopods will negate any power conservation gained by shutting off the FTL drive, making the "burst schedule" completely pointless. I even said this in the quote you selected, though you seem to have ignored it.
 
4) If they're in cryo all the time, it draws power. Power is a consumable resource, just the same as food, water or air. You need not look further than Javik and Ksad Ishan to see excellent examples of why such extended cryosleep for viable populations would not work.
 
5) That requires surrogates. Babies can't be born and raised without human contact.
 
6) Have you tried googling it?
 
7) I am not sure how I am supposed to keep up with this level of mental gymnastics and headcanon using only the scientific principle.
 
8) Innovation takes a long time. EUREKA-bursts of innovation are exceedingly rare.
 
9) They haven't mapped anywhere close to the entire relay network yet, so to say they're not interested in exploring beyond it is ridiculous.

This part alone makes it very clear that if it was possible to slap discharge tech on everything that moves, they would've already done so to make exploration easier. You assume complacency is the culprit because that's what supports your argument.

 

10) Ingenuity is not the magical ability to solve all problems in a short span of time. Time is ultimately the most important factor, and the one you ignore the most, as made evident by your earlier "Time is irrelevant"-comment.

 

Can they reverse-engineer the tech in the span of the Reaper War? No. Can they reverse-engineer the tech in the span of a few centuries or a millenia AFTER the Reaper War? Absolutely.

1. No need to get snippy. Did I not already say there would need to be a huge amount of storage?

2. Funny how it didn't take 1000 years to reverse-engineer the thanix. Not to mention that there's fully reverse-engineering it to the point where you know exactly how it works and can build one in your sleep, and then there's figuring out just enough about how it works to strap it to your ship and go.

3. Where are you getting this increased power from? If there's no change in cryo status, the power would be constant.

4. Funny you should mention Javik. 50,000 years and I don't remember a full power plant needed to keep him on ice. Let's say our methods are not quite as efficient and we obviously need more than one person to survive. We don't need them to do so for tens of thousand of years though. There's too many assumptions to calculate the required power with any accuracy but I see no reason to just assume it's impossible. Oh and by the way Javik's plan fell because of sabotage by indoctrinated agents, not because it fundamentally couldn't work.

5. Debatable. Do we know how the Shepard clone was created? Obviously not the paragon of sanity, but if they can be grown in a tank from the start and intellectually stimulated by an AI/VI, I don't see the problem.

6 Have I tried googling your assumptions on how and when technological advancement would occur? No I haven't. The Wait Calculation doesn't matter. Why? Because in this case waiting loses incentive. The Ark as a means of getting away from the Reapers makes sense. The Ark launched after the Reapers does not, for several reasons. Not to mention that from our perspective it renders the whole move pointless if it happens after the ending.

7. If I do it, it's headcanon. If Bioware does it, it's lore. You can ignore the former. You'll just have to deal with the latter.

8. There is precedent that the innovation we need has taken an appropriate time for this to work.

9. Is that why they get so freaked out by activating a new relay or laugh so hard at creating their own? Because they just can't wait to explore more? Whether it's fear or complacency, the majority of the Citadel races really don't get very far in terms of breaching new ground.

10. Again, precedent. And time is only irrelevant relative to the destination. I don't care when Andromeda is set. I do care when they leave though, and how.

 

The roots are there for how it can work. It is not impossible in the least. Might it require a few more tweaks, maybe even asspulls? Possibly. But again, it's better than the alternative so some level of asspulling is acceptable.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Does this prove IT?

[LinksOcarina]

Does this prove IT?

No

[Ahriman]

The two are related, in the sense that you are overlooking that another species that utilizes the mass effect could make contact and thus spread the technology with ease. There are several examples of this exact thing happening in the lore.

If a relay network exists, then mass effect tech is the easiest to develop. There would be minimal time for another species to develop an entirely different tech prior to making contact with an advanced species. Case in point: The elcor

Relay network makes moment of first contact closer and stimulates colonization of systems with relays. On the other hand eezo naturally exists in many star systems making development of eezo-based FTl natural. If there is no eezo in home systems, they can send colonists to nearby star systems on relativistic speed. Even if there will be no eezo, there is a great chance that more lucky race, which found eezo, will stumble upon them. Eezo way of travel is much more simple to develop than creation of transport wormholes.

When one race will be spending thousands of years to develop such technology, the other race will be traveling between stars all this time.

[Kabooooom]

Relay network makes moment of first contact closer and stimulates colonization of systems with relays. On the other hand eezo naturally exists in many star systems making development of eezo-based FTl natural. If there is no eezo in home systems, they can send colonists to nearby star systems on relativistic speed. Even if there will be no eezo, there is a great chance that more lucky race, which found eezo, will stumble upon them. Eezo way of travel is much more simple to develop than creation of transpoty wormholes.
When one race will be spending thousands of years to develop such technology, the other race will be traveling between stars all this time.

I think you are hugely underestimating how rare eezo actually is in mass effect. It is commonly found because the relay network links systems that have eezo, in addition to linking inhabitable systems. The purpose of this to ensure that the species of the galaxy utilize eezo and develop along the paths that the Reapers wish.

It has to be made within the core of stars that go supernova. Such phenomena are commonplace in space, but it doesn't mean you can find eezo around every corner. Even in the relay network it is relatively rare and valuable, which should tell you how uncommon it probably is in the galaxy at large.

[Ahriman]

I think you are hugely underestimating how rare eezo actually is in mass effect. It is commonly found because the relay network links systems that have eezo, in addition to linking inhabitable systems. The purpose of this to ensure that the species of the galaxy utilize eezo and develop along the paths that the Reapers wish.

It has to be made within the core of stars that go supernova. Such phenomena are commonplace in space, but it doesn't mean you can find eezo around every corner. Even in the relay network it is relatively rare and valuable, which should tell you how uncommon it probably is in the galaxy at large.

And I think you underestimate how common eezo is. Bioware never gave any actual statistics on this matter, so it's subjective on both sides.

And then there are systems which have eezo but don't have a relay. Relays allow easier access to all resources, not just eezo.

[Dantriges]

Hm we´ve only seen one statsis pod at all to run 50.000 years, the Ilos ones ran only a few hundred years.

[Nethershadow]

 

On the other hand, on a purely narrative point of view, you could have entire sections of the pods being shut down during the travel. It would bring interesting tension, especially if it endangers one of the species' chances of survival in Andromeda.

 

While I can get behind the idea of a wormhole subjected to time dilation, I still prefer the relativistic journey for now. The only real problem I have with the wormhole, is not how to create one, but how to ensure we get to the chosen destination. We haven't any inkling as to how it would be done yet. How do you control the location of the white hole? We can't send a probe, it wouldn't come back, and even if it could, it would be 2 500 000 years later... It's been largely ignored in any wormhole theory for now. the refugees could end up so close to a nova they'd be toast. Why would the Council, or refugees hoping to survive, finance a project with such a big, glaring unknown?

 

Assuming they are doing this to get away from Reaper extinction, then any method available really would be a blind leap of faith at survival as there would literally be no time to figure it out. So even with a wormhole, it would make sense to send an Ark, so where ever they end up they have all the stuff they need to survive.

 

If the time dilation is in the millions of years, then I have a hard time believing that there wouldn't be many species that far are vastly technologically superior.

 

So the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, but it didn't take humans that long to get to this point in ME. Humans going from caveman to advancing to where they are now took what, 3-6 thousand years? And with the most significant parts of that change within the last few hundred years? So giving a galaxy of sentient species already at space travel 1, or 2 million years to advance, I would think even with wars, and natural disasters that it wouldn't be difficult for majority of systems / clusters ext in Andromeda to have already been contacted by MW species, let alone where the advanced ones in their own galaxy would be at.

 

Taking Earth as an example of multiple empires / nations which have gone to war, had a couple world wars and natural disasters but ultimately the world is much more advanced and continuing to do so regardless of drawbacks. I think of it similarly for a galaxy, multiple empires that make up the MW, given millions of years from space travel to advance and considering Andromeda is the closest major galaxy to us, I can't see how we wouldn't have had made strong contact / impact on there.

 

So depending on how much time dilation they go for will also change my whole opinion on how I respect their writers image of ME universe. I will still play it, but it will greatly reduce my respect for the franchise as a whole and I will just play it more how I do with the MP, that it doesn't need a story, just cool theme and leave it at that otherwise it will make no sense trying to explain it.

[Kabooooom]

And I think you underestimate how common eezo is. Bioware never gave any actual statistics on this matter, so it's subjective on both sides.
And then there are systems which have eezo but don't have a relay. Relays allow easier access to all resources, not just eezo.

"Relays allow easier access to all resources, not just eezo".

Right. I agree. Thank you for proving my point. Eezo is rare in the network. Therefore it is even more rare in the galaxy at large. Exact numbers are unnecessary to demonstrate the logic there.

[Fade9wayz]

Assuming they are doing this to get away from Reaper extinction, then any method available really would be a blind leap of faith at survival as there would literally be no time to figure it out. So even with a wormhole, it would make sense to send an Ark, so where ever they end up they have all the stuff they need to survive.

 

If the time dilation is in the millions of years, then I have a hard time believing that there wouldn't be many species that far are vastly technologically superior.

 

So the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, but it didn't take humans that long to get to this point in ME. Humans going from caveman to advancing to where they are now took what, 3-6 thousand years? And with the most significant parts of that change within the last few hundred years? So giving a galaxy of sentient species already at space travel 1, or 2 million years to advance, I would think even with wars, and natural disasters that it wouldn't be difficult for majority of systems / clusters ext in Andromeda to have already been contacted by MW species, let alone where the advanced ones in their own galaxy would be at.

 

Taking Earth as an example of multiple empires / nations which have gone to war, had a couple world wars and natural disasters but ultimately the world is much more advanced and continuing to do so regardless of drawbacks. I think of it similarly for a galaxy, multiple empires that make up the MW, given millions of years from space travel to advance and considering Andromeda is the closest major galaxy to us, I can't see how we wouldn't have had made strong contact / impact on there.

 

So depending on how much time dilation they go for will also change my whole opinion on how I respect their writers image of ME universe. I will still play it, but it will greatly reduce my respect for the franchise as a whole and I will just play it more how I do with the MP, that it doesn't need a story, just cool theme and leave it at that otherwise it will make no sense trying to explain it.

Well, yes, but allow me to illustrate how I see it. For me, it is like being on a bridge with an oncoming train and blindly jumping without knowing if it's water or rocks lying under, while you could hide under the bridge instead. If the white hole is situated too close to a nova or massive black hole, the ship will be disintegrated. If the white hole is situated somewhere in intergalactic space, you'll be stuck in the middle of nowhere. The resources you brought won't ensure your survival in these kind of cases. And how come when I propose relativistic travel, I have to justify each and every point of it, but when it's wormhole we magically end up in a convenient place without having to find plausible explanation for that feat? The tech for controlling the location of the white hole has no foothold in ME lore, we only have explanation on how to create the entry end of the thing.

 

I'm not sure why time dilation should matter to you in regards to the development of andromedan sapient species. The galaxy is 9 billion years old. It is far from inconceivable that extremely advanced species could exist. It isn't completely inconceivable that previous civilisations from our galaxy tried escaping there as well either. We'll just have to wait and see, but I fail to see what time dilation has to do with it. Unless you're hoping for future super-drive core and a welcome party from some of our descendants?

[Kabooooom]

Well, yes, but allow me to illustrate how I see it. For me, it is like being on a bridge with an oncoming train and blindly jumping without knowing if it's water or rocks lying under, while you could hide under the bridge instead. If the white hole is situated too close to a nova, the ship will be disintegrated. If the white hole is situated somewhere in intergalactic space, you'll be stuck in the middle of nowhere. The resources you brought won't ensure your survival in these kind of cases. And how come when I propose relativistic travel, I have to justify each and every point of it, but when it's wormhole we magically end up in a convenient place without having to find plausible explanation for that feat? The tech for controlling the location of the white hole has no foothold in ME lore, we only have explanation on how to create the entry end of the thing.

I'm not sure why time dilation should matter to you in regards to the development of andromedan sapient species. The galaxy is 9 billion years old. It is far from inconceivable that extremely advanced species could exist. It isn't completely inconceivable that previous civilisations from our galaxy tried escaping there as well either. We'll just have to wait and see, but I fail to see what time dilation has to do with it. Unless you're hoping for future super-drive core and a welcome party from some of our descendants?

The inability to know or control the destination of the wormhole is the biggest problem - arguably a bigger problem than any that an ark would face. Honestly, I see no way around it unless it was known that the wormhole was created by an intelligence - such as having it associated with a technology (that relay-like concept art, maybe?). Only in that circumstance would the travelers know that the destination would not immediately kill them upon arriving, as the wormhole was deliberately constructed.

[SilJeff]

And I think you underestimate how common eezo is. Bioware never gave any actual statistics on this matter, so it's subjective on both sides.

And then there are systems which have eezo but don't have a relay. Relays allow easier access to all resources, not just eezo.

 

I don't know about actual statistics, but the sample size we got in ME2's mining tells me it is the rarest of the four materials ME2 needed

[Iakus]

I don't know about actual statistics, but the sample size we got in ME2's mining tells me it is the rarest of the four materials ME2 needed

Based on the codex, it's rare, but not that rare.  Just hard to mine:

 

Eezo is generated when solid matter, such as a planet, is affected by the energy of a star going supernova. The material is common in the asteroid debris that orbit neutron stars and pulsars. These are dangerous places to mine, requiring extensive use of robotics, telepresence, and shielding to survive the incredible radiation from the dead star. Only a few major corporations can afford the set-up costs required to work these primary sources.

[shepskisaac]

Can they reverse-engineer the tech in the span of the Reaper War? No. Can they reverse-engineer the tech in the span of a few centuries or a millenia AFTER the Reaper War? Absolutely.

The issue is having a good reason to go to Andromeda. Resources? Milky Way has 400 billion stars, most with planetary systems. There's no need whatsoever to invest in Andromeda expendition after the Reaper invasion is not a threat anymore

[Iakus]

The issue is having a good reason to go to Andromeda. Resources? Milky Way has 400 billion stars, most with planetary systems. There's no need whatsoever to invest in Andromeda expendition after the Reaper invasion is not a threat anymore

 

Which is why if Bioware insists on going this crazy route, to have the trip to Andromeda being a result of Mad Science before the war makes the most, err, least nonsensical explanation.

 

Not fleeing something, not looking for resources.  Just some people with more courage than common sense trying something new.  Bucking the complacency of the rest of the galaxy.  Perhaps not even intending to reach another galaxy.  

[shepskisaac]

Which is why if Bioware insists on going this crazy route, to have the trip to Andromeda being a result of Mad Science before the war makes the most, err, least nonsensical explanation.

 

Not fleeing something, not looking for resources.  Just some people with more courage than common sense trying something new.  Bucking the complacency of the rest of the galaxy.  Perhaps not even intending to reach another galaxy.  

Personally I find REing reaper tech as less out-of-blue and convinient than Mad Scientist Volus' billionarie's dream of exploration. Asari Councilor even TALKS about some kind of a worst-case-scenario preservation plans in ME3, Liara makes info-drone capsules in worst-case-scenario and Raloi actually pack up and flee right at the beginning

[Fade9wayz]

The inability to know or control the destination of the wormhole is the biggest problem - arguably a bigger problem than any that an ark would face. Honestly, I see no way around it unless it was known that the wormhole was created by an intelligence - such as having it associated with a technology (that relay-like concept art, maybe?). Only in that circumstance would the travelers know that the destination would not immediately kill them upon arriving, as the wormhole was deliberately constructed.

I can't either, unless we go with ancient tech (again), of possible extra-galactic origin, conveniently found by our organics, and conveniently overlooked by Reapers... which doesn't sit well with me.

[Drone223]

Which is why if Bioware insists on going this crazy route, to have the trip to Andromeda being a result of Mad Science before the war makes the most, err, least nonsensical explanation.

 

Not fleeing something, not looking for resources.  Just some people with more courage than common sense trying something new.  Bucking the complacency of the rest of the galaxy.  Perhaps not even intending to reach another galaxy.  

tbh no matter how hard Bioware tries they'll never have a good in game reason to go to another galaxy. They're only doing it because they don't want to deal with the mistakes they made in the trilogy simple as that.

 

Bioware shouldn't sugar coat it they should up front why they are moving to another galaxy.

 

OT: A wormhole is a lot more feasible (even if its a contrived coincidence) than continuous FTL for a few centuries since it'll still fit with the galaxies current technology level and wouldn't break any established lore regarding FTL capabilities.

[Nethershadow]

Well, yes, but allow me to illustrate how I see it. For me, it is like being on a bridge with an oncoming train and blindly jumping without knowing if it's water or rocks lying under, while you could hide under the bridge instead. If the white hole is situated too close to a nova or massive black hole, the ship will be disintegrated. If the white hole is situated somewhere in intergalactic space, you'll be stuck in the middle of nowhere. The resources you brought won't ensure your survival in these kind of cases. And how come when I propose relativistic travel, I have to justify each and every point of it, but when it's wormhole we magically end up in a convenient place without having to find plausible explanation for that feat? The tech for controlling the location of the white hole has no foothold in ME lore, we only have explanation on how to create the entry end of the thing.

 

I'm not sure why time dilation should matter to you in regards to the development of andromedan sapient species. The galaxy is 9 billion years old. It is far from inconceivable that extremely advanced species could exist. It isn't completely inconceivable that previous civilisations from our galaxy tried escaping there as well either. We'll just have to wait and see, but I fail to see what time dilation has to do with it. Unless you're hoping for future super-drive core and a welcome party from some of our descendants?

We actually see much of it fairly similar.

 

I'm just saying that regardless of which way they go, they both will have crazy amounts of time required to reach destination.

 

A wormhole has the benefits of it being instant travel for the travelers though the peril is they have no clue where they are going or as I agree with you that there is a good chance they just end at a destination that kills them. They have no time to study wormholes and figure out how and where they go if they are escaping the Reapers. You would only choose this option if the situation is extremely dire, aka you think the Reapers are going to annihilate you shortly.

 

Relativistic travel has the benefit of choosing where your going and seeing what lay between you and your destination. The drawback with it is trying to survive building a ship to incorporate everything you will need and still be functional to reach destination and having good enough technology to survive an insane amount of years on board travelling to location.

 

Both are bad choices for how we get to Andromeda, and the fact that the fanbase here is all pooling the minds to figure out a way to make this work and see nothing very good, which I will take the side of the fanbase over Bioware's select few writers coming up with something that hasn't been discussed here.

 

Now if you mix the two, the Ark and the wormhole, you have the ability and resources of the Ark and quick travel of the wormhole, with the exception of where your going and how safe the destination is. But they are doing it in desperate times so it's somewhat justified to try and escape the Reapers. And since we end up in Andromeda it is assumed that the gamble pays off.

 

If, if it is 100's of thousands of years then I'm thinking wtf, because galactic civilizations would be growing and taking more turf, and if that's the case we would be drastically behind those civs or the MW would have advanced enough to much more likely develop ability to go to Andromeda in a much shorter time. So yes to what you said at the end, I could see us arriving at destination to find our descendants in a welcome party, and then we are the caveman in comparison.

 

Sidenote, I wasn't really giving you a hard time on all your relativistic theories, and your input has only furthered good discussion.

[In Exile]

Hmm, bad news, guys. Looks like these reports are all fan made. Cerebus News Network pretty much stopped running regularly in January of 2011, and these were all made in September

Doesn't mean they wouldn't use this idea. It's like blasto or the term "quad" - fan made stuff has gone into ME in the past.

[In Exile]

The issue is having a good reason to go to Andromeda. Resources? Milky Way has 400 billion stars, most with planetary systems. There's no need whatsoever to invest in Andromeda expendition after the Reaper invasion is not a threat anymore

RBG. There's no way this happens before the reapers. The point of going to Andromeda is to avoid RBG. Whatever handwave they use to get us out of here will be pre- or during Reapers.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I can't either, unless we go with ancient tech (again), of possible extra-galactic origin, conveniently found by our organics, and conveniently overlooked by Reapers... which doesn't sit well with me.

Unless said tech is Reaper in origin, like the Citadel Relay. 

[Iakus]

Doesn't mean they wouldn't use this idea. It's like blasto or the term "quad" - fan made stuff has gone into ME in the past.

 

YEah, as in-jokes, side content inspired by player memes.  THis would be something considerably bigger and more important.

[Kabooooom]

tbh no matter how hard Bioware tries they'll never have a good in game reason to go to another galaxy. They're only doing it because they don't want to deal with the mistakes they made in the trilogy simple as that.

Bioware shouldn't sugar coat it they should up front why they are moving to another galaxy.

OT: A wormhole is a lot more feasible (even if its a contrived coincidence) than continuous FTL for a few centuries since it'll still fit with the galaxies current technology level and wouldn't break any established lore regarding FTL capabilities.

I think they pretty much have been up front about it. They've said there is "no canon ending" for ME3, that they "respect player choice", and they wanted to explore a story "far away in time and space" and "completely separate from Shepard's story, which has finished".

They were never very ambiguous about it, in my opinion. It's just that people hoped beyond hope that they were feeding them BS.