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Why the Indoctrination Theory is not Correct


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#1
mcglsr2

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(NOTE: of course, spoilers ahead, if you haven't played this already really old game.)

 

I have just completed a replay of the Mass Effect series, and like many before stood agonizing over the "Final Choice."  I made my choice.  I then decided to look up what others have said, their interpretation of the meanings.  It would seem that the Indoctrination Theory has gained quite a foothold (it's been a long time since I previously played the games).

 

I started thinking about the Indoctrination Theory, and while it's very compelling, I don't buy it.  And the reason I don't buy it comes down to a single question.  If the Indoctrination Theory is to be believed, the whole Citadel section was a charade, placed into our minds by Harbinger/Reapers as they solidify our indoctrination.  The "correct" solution then, according to these theorists, is the "Destroy" option, and all other options are wrong and imply Shepherd succumbing to indoctrination.  To prove this out, the theorists point out that the color of the Destroy option is Red, thus Renegade, thus Harbinger trying to trick Shepherd into picking something else.

 

Question: does the color of the Destroy option change if you are playing a Paragon Shepherd vs a Renegade Shepherd?  No?  Okay, the Indoctrination Theory is bunk.  Because: if the whole point is to trick Shepherd with the opposite, and if you have been playing a Renegade Shepherd, well guess what: you have been picking red the WHOLE GAME.  So making the Destroy option, in this case, Red is simply affirming what your character should do, exactly the opposite of what the theorists are saying (and supposedly what the Reapers want you to do.  Catalyst: "Oh crap, it's a Renegade Shepherd.  Sorry Reaper buds, but he's going to pick the Red.  If only he was Paragon!").  If Shepherd was indeed indoctrinated, and indeed Renegade, then the Destroy option would be BLUE - because that is counter to how Shepherd has been the whole game.  But it's not.  It's Red.  Oops.

 

Here's what I think happened, and at the end what my choice was and why I chose it.

 

The Citadel: Shepherd really did make it to the beam and up to the Citadel.  You hear on the radio chatter that no one made it - that's because as far as they know, everyone *is* dead.  I mean, on the battle field, everyone always know the exact state of every soldier?  No?  Oh, then why are we putting so much faith into this one radio message?  I think it's there for drama for the player.  Player: "Holy crap did I just die...?  Now what????  Oh!  Shep! You *did* make it to the Citadel!  You are a BEAST!"

 

Shepherd did meet TIM and Anderson.  And so what if the Citadel is shifting?  It's a frickin' floating uber space city that can travel and have Mass Effect Relays inside of it and has been around since before the Reapers - and you accept all that but then get freaked out because of some moving walls???  It must be a hallucination!  Walls just don't disappear!!  Doesn't make sense.  More likely, Shepherd made to a part of the Citadel he had never been to before, and the walls here for whatever reason do in fact move.  Before the events of the first game, if I told you there was a Mass Effect Relay there, would you have shouted "Hallucination!" at me?  So moving walls does not a hallucination make.

 

TIM: I don't think TIM was in fact indoctrinated.  I think he was bat$hit crazy, and finally figured out a form of indoctrination and was able to apply to Shepherd and Anderson.  From the beginning, TIM wanted to control Reapers.  That didn't all of a sudden come out at the end.  He was like that the whole time.  And when would he have been indoctrinated anyway?  He hid away on his space station the whole time.  He wasn't near any Reaper stuff until the very end, after he let *other* people figure out how to make it work.  No, I think he was just nuts, and took the whole "save the human" race thing too far.  (He was essentially the antithesis to the Catalyst - where the Catalyst took saving life to one extreme, TIM took saving humans to a different extreme - but just as extreme).  Shepherd convinced him he was indoctrinated to get rid of him as an obstacle (he was about to kill Shepherd).  Now, Kei Leng was indoctrinated - but by whom?  All we know is the Prothean VI detected indoctrination.  Was it Reaper?  Or was it TIM?  It could be either way, though I think it was TIM - once he figured out how, he did over Kei Leng so he wouldn't get another Miranda situation.

 

Anderson: Why is it so hard to believe Anderson made it there?  He's a tough SOB.  He survived 3 games of ME - not even some of Shepherd's squad mates can claim that.  And he spent most of the last game surviving the Reapers decimating Earth.  Anderson was bad a$$.  Not so hard to think he wouldn't make it as well.

 

The Boy: It's not hard to believe that no one, in a war zone as bad as Earth being razed, would take notice of one little boy.  How many children have died in wars?  Do you remember them all?  While a sad thing, it's also very true.  So the fact that no one pays much attention to him is not sufficient justification that he wasn't in fact there.  I think he's a real boy, and he really dies.  And it really affects Shepherd (what reasonable person wouldn't be affected by watching a child they tried to save, albeit briefly, die in front of them?).  The dream sequences are indeed used to foreshadow something, but I don't think it's Shepherd's indoctrination - it's his death.  We are seeing that Shepherd is going to die.  The fate of that child is in fact our fate.  As evidenced by the end when they are together, and both go up in flames.  Shepherd, like the boy, will die.

 

Dream State Running:  The theorists claim that Shepherd "running" towards the beam is just like the Dream Sequences, thus they are fake.  Orrrrrr....he just almost got killed by a big laser beam, is in fact dying, and just can't run fast.  I think it's the latter.  I think he survived the beam (why not, all that armor has to be good for *something* - it's not like he was naked), but it really took the Micky out of him.  Thus he runs like he's dying - because he his.  The damage we see on the armor is in fact real.

 

The Catalyst/Boy: So why the boy again?  Because the Catalyst is a construct, and picked something out of Shepherd's mind that he can relate to.  He watched this kid die, and has been having nightmares about it (in fact, the only nightmares we see in any game, so he must have been strongly affected) - so it's not unreasonable for the Catalyst to latch on to that image.  Plus, it's poetic license from a Story Telling POV - I think people tend to forget that there are IRL people trying to tell a poignant story here, so there's not necessarily hidden meaning in everything.  Some things are done purely to illicit an emotional response from the viewer.

 

The Choices: Destruction is Red because it is a Destroy Choice.  Control is Blue because it is a Build Choice.  Synergy is Green because it couldn't be Red or Blue.  That's all there is to it.  The colors don't change depending on what Shepherd you play, because you are not indoctrinated.  You are really there, and you really have a choice.  And it's a way for game devs to identify the different choices to prevent gameplay being confusing - after all, if they were all the same color that wouldn't really make sense.  Now, we as players might not like any of the choices, but then again, if it were IRL, sometimes the choices we have to make are all bad choices.  That's called life.

 

The Catalyst/Reapers: I think they are exactly what they seem to be.  The Catalyst is a construct that controls the Reapers.  It's got a single program to follow, Preserve Life.  It has read too much into this directive (much as I think the Indoctrination Theory has read too much into the ending) and took it to extremes.  The Catalyst/Reapers are not inherently evil.  They are just following their programming.  If I programmed a robot to kill people, is it the robot's fault?  We will hate on the robot, want to destroy it, but it will be confused, and not want to be destroyed, because it was just doing what it was told.  It doesn't know any better.  Humans know better.  Robots don't.  The Catalyst is a robot.  Of course it doesn't want to be destroyed, it's just doing what it's told.  That does not make it evil (even though it has done atrocious and evil things).  So because it does not want to be destroyed is not justification that Shepherd is being tricked.

 

The End is Not Real..?: the whole ending being a dream doesn't make sense if Shepherd wasn't really there.  How did the Citadel arms open?  How did the Crucible work?  What was the Catalyst then?  How can we say Shepherd couldn't survive the laser and walk to the beam when at the end we see Shepherd survive the very laser we just said he couldn't (if we accept the theorists statement that the Destroy is the "correct" option and our score is high enough)?  We are prepared to accept aliens and space flight and inter-species sex and Mass Effect magic but as soon as he is beamed up to the Citadel near where he needs to be we apply 2012 Science Logic and call shenanigans?  No way could *that* have happened!

 

So I chose BLUE.  Here's why:

1) Shepherd's goal from the very beginning was to STOP the Reapers, not kill them.  Over and over he's said "don't worry, we'll stop them."  Controlling the Reapers *is* stopping them.

 

2) Through all 3 games, Shepherd has demonstrated his will power.  He has the ability to stay true to himself.  Killing the Reapers is not staying true to himself, STOPPING them is (killing them is a way of stopping them, but not the only way - we have choices, the point of the game).  Furthermore, he has the willpower to be the Catalyst.  Shepherd has been making sacrifices since the beginning.  He has been putting EVERYONE else before him, regardless of race, color or species.  He has done for the Geth, the Quarians, the Krogan, the Rachni, all of the races.  He has defended all forms of life, newly self-aware/sentient Geth not-with-standing.  If there was a single individual better suited to be a Catalyst I don't know who it would be.  Who better to introduce the Human aspect to the blind robot programming.  Who better to correct that mistake?  Hell, he's been fixing every other mistake in the universe, why not this one too.  And he does it like a hero, by sacrificing himself.  The easier solution, the easy way out, is to just to Destroy everything and oh look, I get to live afterwards.  So selfish and self-serving - everything my Shepherd has NOT been up to this point.

 

3) Earlier, Hackett ordered Shepherd to Kill the Reapers - it's a mistake to think this is what Shepherd has been groomed to do.  No, Shepherd has been groomed to do what is *right.*  If all he did was follow orders, there wouldn't have been a 2nd game.  He would have immediately turned himself into the Alliance at the start, RATHER THAN GOING AGAINST THEM WITH CERBERUS.  Why did he do that?  Because it was the right thing to do.  NOT because he was following orders.

 

4) At The End, we get to watch the Reapers help rebuild the civilization they were bent on destroying.  The Geth were redeemed.  Why not the Reapers?  Plus, what better way to just so convincingly and undoubtedly defeat your enemy them to bring them to your side.  The Indoctrination Theory says the Reapers were working Shepherd over - with the BLUE option I maintain that Shepherd indoctrinated the Reapers.  *That's* the Shepherd I know.  Isn't that EXACTLY what control is?  Look at them.  Reapers are rebuilding Relays.  Helping everyone out.  What, are they faking it?  Why?  They could have just as easily continued killing everyone.  They were doing what they were doing because their programming told them to.  Shepherd introduces a new programming, a new way to look at the world.  One can liken it to Reapers as children who don't know any better, and Shepherd as the parent burdened with the responsibility (but very able and capable) of rearing them into something better.  After all, he's been doing this very thing with every single squad member.  And this is no different than the Geth - were the Geth really evil the whole time?  Or were they just robots doing what their programming told them to do.  Which we find out was Reaper control.  Hmm.  And then, through Shepherd's intervention/efforts, they attain heightened awareness (thanks to Reaper code none-the-less).  In fact, they *help* the Quarians, the very entities they have been at war with for 300 years!  The Reapers are no different fundamentally.  They are just different on scale - they are much more powerful than the Geth.  If the Geth can be brought around, as we see for a fact, we have every reason to think the Reapers can be too.  If the Reapers were independent life, not a mechanism controlled and programmed via the Catalyst, then it would have been a very different situation - Destroy would have been a much more plausible solution, because controlling people never works well.  But Reapers aren't people.  Which leads to:

 

5) My Shepherd does not spend a good portion of the game setting a Peace with Quarians and Geth just to throw it away on mass genocide of the Geth.  My Shepherd doesn't do that.  He spends valuable time WHILE EARTH IS BURNING on making sure Joker and EDI hit it off.  Because it's the little things that matter.  It's what we fight for.  If we ignore those base emotions, forsake them for something we claim is bigger, more important, then we are no better than the Reapers.  As ridiculous as it may sound, I fought through 3 games so that Joker and EDI can have a first date.  And for it to mean something.  I am NOT going to just throw that away because it's easier to Destroy everything.  Which also leads to:

 

6) All of a sudden, the population of Earth just exploded.  By A LOT.  Like, by every single alien orbiting Earth.  And Shepherd amassed a LARGE number of people around Earth, for all intents and purposes the largest number of beings together ever seen up to that point.  Even larger than the Protheans.  LOTS of beings.  The Relays are down, they are not getting home anytime soon.  Earth will be way overpopulated, resources will become very scarce, and the Earth will be no better off.  The Reapers might as well have destroyed it.  Think about the shear number of lives floating in orbit.  Earth cannot possibly accommodate them.  Where does food come from?  Medicine?  What happens when they all start having babies?  Wait, you mean I can make the Reapers help rebuild the Relays which means they get done way faster?  Why would I *not* do that?  Destroying the Reapers seals Earth's fate almost as soundly as Refusing to Choose.  Except that everyone gets to die slowly of starvation, poor sanitation, illness, riots and overcrowding, rather than being atomized into Reaper goo almost immediately.

 

I think TIM was on to something - meaning a potential solution to stopping the Reapers is controlling them.  We are appalled at this idea because of the means TIM goes about doing it - which is evil, he (unlike the Catalyst) should know better.  But, that doesn't mean he isn't on to something.  I think the end of the game is exactly what we see.  There's no mirrors.  There's no tricks.  Everything goes down just as we see it.  And the choices are exactly as we see them: Destroy or Control.  (I don't really consider Synergy as a choice because that's anti-Shepherd and the Refusal is just a joke, what did I play 3 games for, so that's not really an option either.)

 

I think people got upset that Shepherd dies in all but the "Perfect Ending" (I don't blame them, I was upset too.  I invested a lot into him just to have it taken away.  It hurt.  But it also makes for a good story.  And hero's die.  That's what they do, that's part of what makes them a hero, they are willing to go above and beyond what a normal person would - and unfortunately a lot of the time that means putting their life on the line, and IRL it's not always rainbows and kittens).

 

Anyway, that's my thoughts on it.  I could be wrong, and it's open-ended enough such that the ending can be written however the devs want in the next installment, if there is one.  The Destroy ending just doesn't sit well with me.  And I can see how one might agree with the Indoctrination Theory, but it can be just as easily spun a different way too.  In addition to that, the Indoctrination Theory just tastes too much like Paranoia.  Black helicopters and everything.  Sometimes, things really are as they seem.

 

But because the colors for the Choices do not change despite the Shepherd standing there (Renegade or Paragon), there is no trick.  If there is no trick there, it calls into question all the "conclusions" claimed by the Indoctrination Theory.


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#2
Ithurael

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"There is a realm of speculation so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it, they are beyond your speculation, they are ITers"


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#3
Excella Gionne

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The endings are what they are. IT thinks that there are secrets behind almost every action--a concealed truth. If you keep thinking something is there then something is going to be there. 

 

About Control: Shepard wants to "destroy" the Reapers, but Shepard has also been given other possibilities besides  "destroy". "Control" is a chance to change the purpose of the Reapers towards another solution or towards a purpose that Shepard thinks is right. Shepard makes the Reapers into guardians and protectors of the galaxy. This is an ideal solution if you think the Reapers are better off being useful for another purpose than simply destroying them. Synthesis can be reached eventually with time, but it is still a long way from now. Like the Catalyst said "It is inevitable we will reach Synthesis." 



#4
mcglsr2

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"There is a realm of speculation so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it, they are beyond your speculation, they are ITers"

 

Yah, that's kind of my Black Helicopters Paranoia comment at the end.  If you have to work that hard at it, it's probably not what you think it is.

 

 

The endings are what they are. IT thinks that there are secrets behind almost every action--a concealed truth. If you keep thinking something is there then something is going to be there. 

 

About Control: Shepard wants to "destroy" the Reapers, but Shepard has also been given other possibilities besides  "destroy". "Control" is a chance to change the purpose of the Reapers towards another solution or towards a purpose that Shepard thinks is right. Shepard makes the Reapers into guardians and protectors of the galaxy. This is an ideal solution if you think the Reapers are better off being useful for another purpose than simply destroying them. Synthesis can be reached eventually with time, but it is still a long way from now. Like the Catalyst said "It is inevitable we will reach Synthesis." 

 

Agreed.  I felt the Control option was ideal - everyone gets to live and my efforts aren't wasted.  We have no indication that the Reapers can't be controlled and every indication that they can (the purpose of the Catalyst).  If things go South, I figure Catalyst-Shepherd can step in one last time for the Galaxy and end his (and thus the Reapers) quasi-life.

 

Synergy should happen on it's own timeline, not be forced.  Which is why I didn't really consider it an option.



#5
Dantriges

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The Shepalyst sounds a bit too independant for that.



#6
Abraham_uk

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Only the player sees red for renegade and blue for paragon.

 

Renegade Shepard doesn't see red all the time.

Paragon Shepard doesn't see blue all the time.

 

This is mere artistic representation of red and blue.

Think of it this way. Does Commander Shepard actually hear the game soundtrack?

You know when Normandy is making a lot of noise in space, is the Normandy actually making noise in a vacuum or is this just added for cinematic reasons?

 

So here is another explanation.

 

Red in this scenario implies danger. This colour was chosen because this was the colour that Shepard was supposed to avoid.

This colour is a trick. Avoid the danger and don't pick red. This has little to do with morality and more to do with psychology.

 

If Shepard is undergoing indoctrination, the Reapers would understand the power of colour psychology. A useful tool to convert people...

 

 

 

As for the Star Child. The voice of the Reapers is a disembodied voice that sounds nothing like a child. Shepard is not only suffering from Reaper Indoctrination but also PTSD. So perhaps Shepard projected this fear onto the Star Child. Perhaps this is Shepard's subconscious warning him/her of danger.



#7
Coyotebay

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As for the Star Child. The voice of the Reapers is a disembodied voice that sounds nothing like a child. Shepard is not only suffering from Reaper Indoctrination but also PTSD. So perhaps Shepard projected this fear onto the Star Child. Perhaps this is Shepard's subconscious warning him/her of danger.

 

Yeah that was the unintentionally funny part about that whole scene.  The Catalyst takes on the persona of a young boy so as to be less unnerving to Shepard.  Except the young boy looks like a ghost, and talks with an echo.  Yeah that's really relaxing.  And even if he was in the flesh and spoke normally, how would that not be unnerving?  I don't want to have the Catalyst talk to me with the voice of doom and I don't want him looking and talking like a ten year old kid.  Just look like a normal freaking adult human being for crying out loud.  And if I'm a male Shepard just make it be Kate Upton or something.  Doesn't the Catalyst know anything about people?  Sheesh!  And if this really is just a PTSD projection of Shepard's fevered brain, you KNOW it's going to be Kate Upton.  Just saying.



#8
mcglsr2

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Only the player sees red for renegade and blue for paragon.

 

Renegade Shepard doesn't see red all the time.

Paragon Shepard doesn't see blue all the time.

 

This is mere artistic representation of red and blue.

Think of it this way. Does Commander Shepard actually hear the game soundtrack?

You know when Normandy is making a lot of noise in space, is the Normandy actually making noise in a vacuum or is this just added for cinematic reasons?

 

So here is another explanation.

 

Red in this scenario implies danger. This colour was chosen because this was the colour that Shepard was supposed to avoid.

This colour is a trick. Avoid the danger and don't pick red. This has little to do with morality and more to do with psychology.

 

If Shepard is undergoing indoctrination, the Reapers would understand the power of colour psychology. A useful tool to convert people...

 

 

 

As for the Star Child. The voice of the Reapers is a disembodied voice that sounds nothing like a child. Shepard is not only suffering from Reaper Indoctrination but also PTSD. So perhaps Shepard projected this fear onto the Star Child. Perhaps this is Shepard's subconscious warning him/her of danger.

 

Yah, come on, that's a bit esoteric, right?  We all understand that the player and Shepherd are the same.  What the player sees is what Shepherd sees.  If we try to say that Shepherd doesn't see the same things that we do, then we might as well attach any random explanation we want to these conclusions.  The fact of the matter is that ME3 is a game.  Made by people.  To be played by people.  Shepherd does not exist outside of this context.  To start saying "But Shepherd sees it as different colors!" is stretching things quite a bit.  So for 3 games the player, the one making the choices (not Shepherd, as Shepherd does not actually make any choices, the player does) has been picking blue or red options.  I mean that is practically a staple of this game.

 

But to then have the colors at the end, and now all of a sudden buck the trend and say "well, these colors don't mean the same thing, but only in this one time." doesn't make sense.  And of course there are effects for the player that Shepherd can't see/hear, like the music.  Obviously.  It's a game.  The problem is that same reasoning can be applied to arguments in favor of IT.  That grass after the beam hit?  Dream grass?  Or maybe it's just grass and the devs reused the objects rather than spending time and money in creating different ones.  The Citadel with bits that look like the Shadow Broker ship?  Yup.  More dev reuse to save time and money.  Nothing sinister there.  See where I'm going?

 

So I'm supposed to believe that Shepherd, who has given no indication to any observance of color significance (while we, the player, have been doing it for 3 games), is now supposed to observe "Red is Bad, Blue is Good" at the very end?  And the player, the person the makers of the game are really targeting, is not supposed to be fooled here?  The best trick the Reapers can come up with, assuming Shep here is indeed just about indoctrinated, is to throw a "Red means bad" sign at him?  That's really thin and very hard to believe.  I won't say you are wrong, because I honestly don't know - maybe that's exactly what the devs were trying to pull.  But talking it out, it seems *highly* unlikely.

 

I would sooner believe that the colors are there for artistic purposes only.  If ITer's didn't say it was Reaper trickery, then I would accept they just happened to be that color.  But to try to spin it into Reaper trickery and completely outside of the realm of the game I have just been playing, is frankly a bit ridiculous.

 

And read what you typed out loud: "If Shepard is undergoing indoctrination, the Reapers would understand the power of colour psychology. A useful tool to convert people..."

 

Reapers worst weapon against humanity!  What could it BEEEEE???  Oh no, not color psychology, we are soooo screwed!  Okay, I'm poking a little fun.  But seriously.  Mega powerful Reaper mind control.  No one survives it - they are either indoctrinated or killed.  We have not seen a single person survive it.  And they employ color psychological at this most critical movement?  No, if they really were doctoring the Shep, they would have shown the Destroy option killing his friends and the galaxy and stuff.  If we are going to say they can implant a fake boy *at the beginning of the game* certainly they can totally illusion him into picking the wrong choice at the end.  Hell, all they had to do was swap choices.  Make Shepherd see the "Destroy" option where "Control" really was and vice versa.  Give him some grief so he doesn't think it's too easy, and let him pick "Destroy (which is really Control)."  Boom.  Exactly what the Reapers wanted.  Easy peasy, and no color psychology needed.

 

Now, I can totally agree with PTSD.  He has literally been through hell.  And I think we see him getting worn down.  But that does not mean indoctrination.  Look at all he's been through.  He doesn't need indoctrination to get depressed.  But just because he might be feeling a bit beaten down, does not automatically mean he's indoctrinated.

 

Now, for the record, I am not saying I am anti-IT.  I think it's an awesome concept and kudos to the person with the out-of-the-box thinking that was like "Hmm, I wonder..."  What I am saying, however, is that while it's an awesome idea, there really isn't any concrete evidence that proves IT as fact.  Rather, I get the vibe that it's one of those "Hey, this idea is just toooo good to not be true, how can we make it true, cause that would be awesome." rather than an honest appraisal of what we are actually seeing in the game.  Is it a cool idea?  Sure.  Do elements of the game support it?  Ah, well, sure, i guess some elements do depending on how you look at them.  Does the game actually go to any effort to enforce this as a hidden sub-plot?  Absolutely not.  Last but not least, the whole Shepherd Indoctrination thing is pure gold, and I bet the devs were like "dayum I wish we thought of that."  And if they had, do you really think they would go to such lengths to hide that?  To make it so hard to find?  Because ME isn't that kind of game.  And all that flak they caught for the ending, could have been like "Hey, you idiot players, we so got you the Shep dude was under the influence."  And everyone would have bowed down.  Why do you think they remain silent on the ending?  Because what the community has cobbled up is better than what they actually had in mind, and why would they ruin it.


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#9
mcglsr2

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Yeah that was the unintentionally funny part about that whole scene.  The Catalyst takes on the persona of a young boy so as to be less unnerving to Shepard.  Except the young boy looks like a ghost, and talks with an echo.  Yeah that's really relaxing.  And even if he was in the flesh and spoke normally, how would that not be unnerving?  I don't want to have the Catalyst talk to me with the voice of doom and I don't want him looking and talking like a ten year old kid.  Just look like a normal freaking adult human being for crying out loud.  And if I'm a male Shepard just make it be Kate Upton or something.  Doesn't the Catalyst know anything about people?  Sheesh!  And if this really is just a PTSD projection of Shepard's fevered brain, you KNOW it's going to be Kate Upton.  Just saying.

 

That just reinforces the lack of understanding that the Catalyst has about living things.  If it was indoctrination, why would the Catalyst be the very creepy boy Shepherd watched "die" and have nightmares about?  It would have been Kate Upton, and Shep (female or otherwise) would have been like "I'll push whatever button you want.  Just point to it."

 

But instead we get a creepy a$$ kid.  Which just reinforces that the Catalyst doesn't understand Humans (much less life), which is why it's trying to always kill it to save it.  Because it's a robot.  It doesn't get it.  If Shep was indoctrinated, Harbinger/Reapers would have massaged that totally differently.  it's like the Reapers are awesome at indoctrination the whole game and then eff it up really bad at the end with Shep.  It just doesn't make sense.  What makes sense, is that Shep was there, and the Catalyst was telling the truth. 



#10
Abraham_uk

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Garrus: Hey Shepard. Why did you punch that reporter?

Shepard: I saw a red star and I had to activate it to find out.

Garrus: Huh?

Shepard: Sometimes I see a blue wing sometimes I see a red star. I just have to find out. Heck I often see dialogue in blue and red options too. The white dialogue options are a bit dull though. I often skip those.

Garrus: Right. You sure you haven't been hitting the meds?

 

Case in point. What Shepard sees and what the player sees are not one an the same.

There is no evidence that Shepard sees red renegade options and blue paragon options. This is just game play design.



#11
mcglsr2

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Yah, just played through the ending again.  Shep-dude is totally not indoctrinated.  If the worst possible outcome for the Reapers is the Destroy option, why even let Shepherd know it's an option.  If he was being indoctrinated, why not just present him the Control/Syngery and say "that's all you got to choose from."  Why even tell him of the option that kills the Reapers.  He's never been there before, he wouldn't have know any different.

 

Thus the kid is telling the truth.  Thus this is really the true Choice of the game:

 

1) Pick Destroy: Reapers are gone, friends are killed (EDI, Geth, others?), and you get to live

2) Pick Control: Friends all survive, Reapers help rebuild, but you die

3) Pick Synergy: You force your will/changes onto innocent lives, whether they want it or not.  But you get to sort-of live.

 

There it is.  It comes down to whether Shepherd is willing to live, or die.  He can live, but at the expense of friends/whole races of lives.  Or he can die, and save everyone.  I don't know about the Shepherd's you all played, but I know what mine picks.


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#12
Dantriges

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Why would they waste time with all that? The starkid let him upstairs and without his explanation Shepard wouldn´t know what to pick and how to do it anyways.



#13
mcglsr2

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Garrus: Hey Shepard. Why did you punch that reporter?

Shepard: I saw a red star and I had to activate it to find out.

Garrus: Huh?

Shepard: Sometimes I see a blue wing sometimes I see a red star. I just have to find out. Heck I often see dialogue in blue and red options too. The white dialogue options are a bit dull though. I often skip those.

Garrus: Right. You sure you haven't been hitting the meds?

 

Case in point. What Shepard sees and what the player sees are not one an the same.

There is no evidence that Shepard sees red renegade options and blue paragon options. This is just game play design.

 

Of course - this just proves my point.  Shepherd's actions are a result of you, the player, whom is prompted by the game.  If you take your hands off the keyboard/controller, does Shepherd go about his business completing quests for you?  So of course Shepherd is not aware of the Paragon/Renegade Interrupts.  But YOU are.  And YOU are Shepherd.  But fine - let's say then that the colors at the end are just that, colors.  Because they needed to be colors, and just so happened to be Red and Blue.  Okay, fine.  But then to turn around say that Harbinger was using those colors to trick in-game Shepherd - what's the point?  What purpose does it serve when Harbinger just could have bald-faced lie to the Shepherd through the Catalyst and tricked him into any answer they wanted?  Why even give him a choice?  It's not like Harbinger was like "Yo, peeps, about to indoctrinate yo a$$, you okay with that?" to the people he was about to indoctrinate.  He just did it.  Hell, there could have been only 1 choice up there, and Catalyst could have told him it would make cows pop out of his a$$ and he would have believed it BECAUSE HE COULDN'T KNOW ANY DIFFERENT  Shepherd didn't know what the Crucible was for.  He didn't even know the Catalyst was the Catalyst!  So why all the hoops?  Why the run around?  If it was Indoctrination, that would have all been completely unnecessary.  I mean the whole IT thing is just so convoluted when it didn't have to be.  Thus, it's probably not very likely.

 

So, if you want to say the colors at the end had no significance, fine.  I agree.  But then IT people cannot say they were used as tricks - because we just agreed they have no significance.  You can't have it both ways - you can't say they no significance to undermine one argument and then say they do to support another.  Either they are significant, or they are not.  And to say it was significant to in-game Shepherd when there is NO precedence of that even being a thing in this game or any of the previous games, it's a bit deus ex machina.  And not to be trusted.



#14
mcglsr2

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Why would they waste time with all that? The starkid let him upstairs and without his explanation Shepard wouldn´t know what to pick and how to do it anyways.

 

Yes, exactly!  Why even go through the Charade?  Shepherd would have believed anything.  So why the Charade?  Because it wasn't a Charade.  It was real, it happened.  Shep-dude was there.  The Catalyst was there, and it telling it straight up BECAUSE IT'S A FRICKIN' ROBOT.  Why would it lie?  It didn't even think it was doing anything wrong.  So why cover it up?  Why lie?



#15
Excella Gionne

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Synthesis is the ultimate choice where you can solve the galactic problem of Synthetics vs Organics. It is a forced change, yes, but if it's the only way to solve the problem and the choice is available now, why not choose it to avoid future conflicts? You can choose to have the organics evolve to synthesis on their own, but that will be thousands and maybe millions of years away. Synthesis is change, but it is not one that will kill nor harm anyone. Synthesis is merely what organics want to achieve.


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#16
Abraham_uk

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Colours do have significance. My entire argument hinges on this one statement.

 

Red implies: aggression, passion, impulse, pride, evil, strength, might etc...

Blue implies: calm, collected, heroic, strategic etc...

 

This is why blue was chosen for paragon and red was chosen for renegade.

Shepard does not see red for renegade and blue for paragon.

 

However Shepard does see red for the destroy option, green for the synthesis option and blue for the control option.

At the end of the game (where Shepard does see the colours): Red means danger. Blue means long term strategic advantage. Green means harmony.

 

Throughout the games the colours were significant. However sometimes it's a game design decision and other times it is quite literally part of the plot.

 

 

The player is not Commander Shepard. The player has some leeway to make choices as Commander Shepard. This is not the same as actually being Commander Shepard.



#17
mcglsr2

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Synthesis is the ultimate choice where you can solve the galactic problem of Synthetics vs Organics. It is a forced change, yes, but if it's the only way to solve the problem and the choice is available now, why not choose it to avoid future conflicts? You can choose to have the organics evolve to synthesis on their own, but that will be thousands and maybe millions of years away. Synthesis is change, but it is not one that will kill nor harm anyone. Synthesis is merely what organics want to achieve.

 

It's okay if Synthesis is takes forever.  Part of the "learning" is the journey.  Besides, just because Shepherd is ready to usher in that era now doesn't mean everyone else in the Universe is also ready to accept it.  Not all organics necessarily want to achieve it right now.  Would you be okay with all of a sudden turning into a part synthetic right now?  Maybe yes, maybe not.  Would you still be you?  I'm not sure I want it right now, and while yes, thank you Shepherd for saving the Galaxy many times over, I don't need you to make this decision for me, where I don't even get a say.  So while it's maybe the best in the long run, that doesn't people are ready to accept it.  However they will get there.  Catalyst said it's the end state.  Which means we do get there eventually.  Maybe not right this second, but we do get there.  In our own time, when we are ready, and we choose.  Choice is important to people (sort of the whole premise of the game).  Shepherd choosing Synergy for people is taking away their right to choose.  It sort of defeats everything he was fighting for.

 

 

Colours do have significance. My entire argument hinges on this one statement.

 

Red implies: aggression, passion, impulse, pride, evil, strength, might etc...

Blue implies: calm, collected, heroic, strategic etc...

 

This is why blue was chosen for paragon and red was chosen for renegade.

Shepard does not see red for renegade and blue for paragon.

 

However Shepard does see red for the destroy option, green for the synthesis option and blue for the control option.

At the end of the game (where Shepard does see the colours): Red means danger. Blue means long term strategic advantage. Green means harmony.

 

Throughout the games the colours were significant. However sometimes it's a game design decision and other times it is quite literally part of the plot.

 

 

The player is not Commander Shepard. The player has some leeway to make choices as Commander Shepard. This is not the same as actually being Commander Shepard.

 

Okay, fine, I will concede this to you.  I don't totally agree, but that's okay (I totally agree that colors have significance.  I don't agree that they are applied in this game the way you are describing).  I won't belabor the point anymore.  None-the-less, it's a pretty weak argument for Indoctrination.  So you are saying Red is bad, Blue is good.  Why can't that be the truth?  Destroying is in fact bad, Controlling (and rebuilding) is in fact good.



#18
mcglsr2

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From the Control Ending, Shepherd-Catalyst monologue:

 

Shepherd: And throughout it all, I will never forget.

Shepherd: I will remember the ones who sacrificed themselves so the many could survive. (Images of Legion and Mordin)

Shepherd: And I will watch over the ones who live on.  Those who carry the memory of the man I once was.  The man who gave up his life to become the one who could save the many.

 

 

THAT is my Shepherd.  Not the guy that destroyed it all.  How is the control ending not good? (Apart from the fact that Shepherd had to die of course).  If he's Indoctrinated - why the elaborate ruse?  He already chose wrong.  Torment him.  Enslave him.  Make him feel good about his choice...? o_O  Doesn't make sense.  No. I chose correctly.  The Indoctrination Theory is a good story to have on your coffee table as a conversation piece.  But that's all it is.  A conversation.  Nothing more.

 

On the Destroy ending, Hackett narrates.  Shepherd, in control this whole time, is no longer in control.  Food for thought.  And oh, the Citadel is totally blown up with the Destroy ending.  How is that good?  How many lives were lost?  Zakera Ward?  Probably gone.  Good bye numerous efforts in first, second and third game.  I'm telling you, the Destroy just doesn't feel right.  It feels very Reaper-ish in it's solution.

 

 

Note: Oh, further evidence that TIM was on to something - if you had decided to keep the Collector Base intact (I did not), the war asset was worth more (not much though).  Point is, the reward, by the game, for saving the base (control) was greater than killing it.  More food for thought.  Unless, of course, the ITer's want to say all of the 2nd game was in fact an indoctrinated hallucination...?



#19
S.W.

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I quite like an adapted version of IT where Shepard actually did make it onto the Citadel, and where a destroy ending = Shepard actually succeeds, whereas the other endings = Shepard finally succumbs to Reaper control. This makes up for how contrived the control/synthesis choices are (you spend an entire trilogy where the good guys insist that destruction of the reapers at any cost, at any sacrifice, is necessary, and now you tell me there's an easy way out? psssh), whilst also not throwing all visual evidence under the bus by saying "it was all a dream". I think it's quite possible that Shepard made it - heck, even the TIM/Anderson conversation isn't totally implausible.

 

Is IT fun, interesting, and probably a better ending? Yep. Is it true? Nah. The EC kinda blows it apart.



#20
mcglsr2

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Is IT fun, interesting, and probably a better ending? Yep. Is it true? Nah. The EC kinda blows it apart.

 

Agreed.  

 

Though I must say, I am not disappointed with the Control Ending.  I mean, it wasn't all sunshine.  While I think they sort of threw the endings together without really giving them serious thought, I have to admit I am not disappointed with it.  I think the mistake with Control would have been letting Shepherd live.  That would have been happy path, and unrealistic.



#21
dorktainian

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OP.

 

did you pay much attention to the game at all?  I'll throw in an example.

 

"Anderson: Why is it so hard to believe Anderson made it there?"

 

BEFORE YOU?  ARE YOU NUTS?

 

"So I chose BLUE.  Here's why:

1) Shepherd's goal from the very beginning was to STOP the Reapers, not kill them.  Over and over he's said "don't worry, we'll stop them."  Controlling the Reapers *is* stopping them."

 

Did you not listen to starjar?  TIM could not control the Reapers because 'they' already controlled him.  What makes you think Starjar is going to let you control the reapers?  roflmao.

 

"The Catalyst/Reapers: I think they are exactly what they seem to be. "

 

oh dear.  Oh dear oh dear.  

 

yodawg.jpg

 

That's how much sense it still makes - even taking into account the EC.

The EC blows nothing apart, bar the people who think IT isn't legit.  Slideshows mean nothing because,

 

1.  The Breath Scene still exists.

2.  The narrator still says there is one more story.

3.  A singular ending can not have 4 different flavours.  One of them MUST be canon.  

4.  Organics create Synthetics to stop organics creating synthetics that kill organics...... err yep.

 

But hey, i'm a conspiracy Theorist and ITer.  I do think theres more to the ending than IT on its own tho.  Always have.


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#22
NeonFlux117

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If you believe in narrative cohesion and you believe in the ESTABLISED lore of the series. Then the conversation, and more importantly, WHERE it takes place, with the Catalyst is NOT possible.

And the very FACT that the Catalyst takes form as the child from Shepards dreams means.....


The Catalyst has access to Shepard s subconscious.

The Catalyst created Harbinger....

Harbinger was created out of the Leviathan species....

The Leviathan have the ability to put organics in a super induced thrall... That can last for years....

Shepard and the Leviathan Communicated via dreamscape and telepathically..... In fact, Shepard was asleep in the mech, then "freed" by the Leviathan and woken up.

The Leviathan thrall can last YEARS.


Fact, fact, fact and.....Fact.

All you have to do is think and connect the dots.



Why is Shepard even alive after the high ems destroy?

Shepard had no breather.... Nor barrier/shield or armor.... How is Shepard alive?

What's with the 1M1?
Why do all the bodies have phoneix armor and Shaved heads on the Citadel?
Why does Shepard's carnifex have unlimited ammo?
Why is Admiral Anderson, all of a sudden, CAPTAIN Anderson.

Does Shepard think this is ME1?

Does Shepard think he is on the Citadel during ME1.
Is Shepards Carnifex really a HWSGX with level X Frictionless Material mod?

Has gameplay mechanics suddenly reverted back to 2183 and NOT 2186?

Why does TIM "need" Shepard to "understand"?

Why can't TIM activate the Citadel Control panel?

Why is Shepard bleeding profusely in the same spot as Anderson was Shot in?

What does the Geth Prime at the FOB in London tell you about how the Geth view the upcoming battle and the, "old machines"

How does EDI feel about the Reapers?

Who wants control?
Who wants a "perfect" union between man and machine?

Have these people played a prominent role in the games?

Wake.Up.Shepard.

Or.... It's just bad writing and a Deus Ex Machina rip off with a Dash of The Matrix 3 ending thrown in.


It's probably the latter.


Probably.
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#23
mcglsr2

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My comments below, in red ( ;) ):

 

OP.

 

did you pay much attention to the game at all?  

 

Well, since I draw different conclusions from you, clearly I must not have paid any attention at all.

 

I'll throw in an example.

 

"Anderson: Why is it so hard to believe Anderson made it there?"

 

BEFORE YOU?  ARE YOU NUTS?

 

Okay, so let me get this straight.  You are willing to believe everything else in this Universe: aliens, magic mass effect fields, ancient civilizations, but you all of a sudden can't believe that Anderson made it?  And Anderson says in the narrative that he arrived in a different location from Shepherd.  Even that he arrived in front of him.  Why is that so far-fetched?  Why do you choose now to all of a sudden stop believing in the universe, why question now?  I mean, did we question Shepherd being brought back to life after being brain dead for like 2 years?  Oh, no, *that's* okay, but NO WAY DID ANDERSON MAKE IT THAT IS JUST TOOOO MUCH!  I do believe you are lacking perspective.  You are all of a sudden removing the suspension of disbelief because doing so supports a hypothesis, when you are content to accept it for even more ridiculous things.

 

"So I chose BLUE.  Here's why:

1) Shepherd's goal from the very beginning was to STOP the Reapers, not kill them.  Over and over he's said "don't worry, we'll stop them."  Controlling the Reapers *is* stopping them."

 

Did you not listen to starjar?  TIM could not control the Reapers because 'they' already controlled him.  What makes you think Starjar is going to let you control the reapers?  roflmao.

 

Okay.  First off, I may be wrong there.  Secondly, you call BS on everything that kid says, he's a hallucination.  But NOW he's telling the truth.  Seriously.  You can't pick and choose which parts you choose to believe and not.  If you are going to maintain that whole segment is Indoctrination, then that calls into question the validity of every single thing that happens.  You can't then use it to support a statement.  The fact that you say "it's all a dream!" and then use it to point out facts is more roflmao-worthy than my mistake.  Having said that, I'm probably wrong here, I guess TIM was indoctrinated.  My bad.

 

"The Catalyst/Reapers: I think they are exactly what they seem to be. "

 

oh dear.  Oh dear oh dear.  

 

yodawg.jpg

 

That's how much sense it still makes - even taking into account the EC.

The EC blows nothing apart, bar the people who think IT isn't legit.  Slideshows mean nothing because,

 

1.  The Breath Scene still exists. - only if you Destroy everything.  It's one of the slideshows you just said that means nothing.  It's a consequence of your choices.  You sacrifice friends for your life.  The other endings do NOT have this scene, thus it does not exist.

2.  The narrator still says there is one more story. - no, the narrator says that he will "tell one more story" before the kid has to go to bed.  It does not mean that there is only 1 more story.  And what does it matter?  What does this prove?  The story could have been of any number of exploits while Shepherd was alive that we didn't see.  He has the blitz that we saw nothing about.  You can't just assume that this is proof he lives.  There is nothing that asserts the next story is in chronological order.  You are making that assumption.

3.  A singular ending can not have 4 different flavours.  One of them MUST be canon. - agreed.  and one will be canon.  As it stands now, none are canon because there aren't more stories yet (that I know of).  The devs will pick something, and canonize it.  And hey, they may pick the IT ending because it *is* a cool idea.  That's not my argument.  My argument is that all the proof the IT folks say exists is actually faulty logic and supposition.  There is no proof.  Period.  End of statement.

4.  Organics create Synthetics to stop organics creating synthetics that kill organics...... err yep. - because everything else makes perfect sense in these games.  Sure, Mordin, you create that cure in a couple min when other people have been working *years.*  If you don't like that, then get mad at the devs for creating a stupid idea.  That does not prove Indoctrination.  If you argue that it does, then you have to say ALL 3 GAMES have been nothing but one big trip.  You can't accept that logic about the Reapers for almost 3 full games and then all of a sudden at the end say "WAIT - it doesn't make sense, it must be Indoctrination!"  It didn't exist in the beginning.  Why wait until the end of the 3rd game to now say it's all a lie?  That makes no sense.

 

But hey, i'm a conspiracy Theorist and ITer.  I do think theres more to the ending than IT on its own tho.  Always have.

 

Sure.  Maybe there is.  I doubt it though.  The problem is that you are completely leaving out the real world.  This game is not an unlimited budget, in production for 10 years with every single detail noodled out.  The devs themselves say that the ending was a bit rushed.  They have deadlines.  They have a budget.  They threw that $hit together man, and you are trying to find something that isn't there.  You have decided that the IT is the way it should have ended (and I don't disagree) and then you witch hunt through the game trying to find facts to support this, and twist the facts and create faulty logic when you don't find it.

 

The reality is this: if the whole ending was Indoctrination - then what was the point of it!  Why even show it.  Why would the Reapers even go through the exercise?  They would have presented Shepherd with the choice they wanted.  That's what Indoctrination *is.*  Why even give the choice?  The fact that the whole thing is so convoluted when the "solution" for the Reapers could have been so easy MAKES NO SENSE.  None at all.  No, most likely, it really happened the way we saw, and we, as players, were allowed to make a choice that doesn't follow a linear path (the different endings) which was a goal of the game IN THE FIRST PLACE.  There is nothing magical about it.  It's just choice.  Pure and simple.


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#24
CrystalXPredator

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So then is there someone who can explain me why the "reapers shouldn't or "CAN'T" indoctrinate Shepard?

hmm because Shepard has a strong will nothing can stop him/her? is that the explanation? Since nobody can explain it to me I will say that Shepard got some trouble while he is fighting about indoctrination and since the reapers build the mass relays with conduit and concrete and not with high metal tech stuff I believe in the destroy ending and IT makes sense. B) :P

 

Why makes IT sense?

 

Because Shepard killed some reaper (Sovereign, proto human reaper, arrival, Reaper on Tuchanka, Rannoch) s/he stopped the Reapers to came from a backdoor. And also the Reapers see him/her as a real threat, thats why the Reapers try at least to indoctrinate him/her.

or why the hell only Saren, some Geth, Illusive Man ecetera got indoctrinated by the Reapers explaining?

 

And the breath scene proofs that. Then everything after the hit from harbinger is the indoctrination process it's up to you how you pass it.

Thats why I always goes for destroy ending it is the most ending that makes sense to me.



#25
Fixers0

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The thing witht IT is that it was created by fanboys who were so shocked by the ending and just couldn't accept that bioware could write such rubbish.


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