123 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Eh, I'm okay with Shepard dying.  What I don't like is watching him stand there with a stupid look on his face while he's getting lectured by a hologram of a ten year old kid who is in fact the greatest homicidal monster the galaxy has ever known.  It literally would be like having Hitler lecture you in his bunker at the end of WWII about how killing the Jews seemed like a great idea at the time, but now it's time to come up with a better solution.  And you just dumbly nodding your head to it all.  So sure, let him die if that's what it takes, so long as he stops the Reapers and their little punk general.

I didn't have a problem with this, myself; there'd be no point in getting into an argument in either situation. Wouldn't have minded an interrupt to make Shepard roll her eyes a bit, though.

[mcglsr2]

I played through all three games in couple of months, and also I had all the DLCs. The way I see it -- perfect paragon choice is "Control", perfect renegade is "Destroy". Renegade "Control" is creepy to be honest. Paragon "Destroy" is contradictory to the very essence of paragon and a easy way out. "Refuse" is a bratty choice for angry fans and "Synthesis" is for people who want to remove themselves from a strict morality choice and is basically a compromise (albeit a terrifying one).

 

I was lucky I've played this without knowing all the drama and with all DLCs and the extra content. I was quite happy with my choice and the end scenes (Paragon control). It was chilling, bittersweet, with horrible implications, but ultimately done the same way as all my paragon choices. I often see the argument "you should pick destroy bc that's what you've been told to do throughout the game". Yeah, but if anything, Shepard has proven that they are flexible & adaptable, and only because of that did they ultimately even reach the end.

 

And on a selfish note, Control is worth it just for the voice of my Shepard. Yeah, it's technically AI now, but it still turns to Hale's voice when speaking about protecting the ones she loved, it's chilling and touching at the same time, and it's the most SF ending of them all (Synthesis is not as believable). Honestly, I wouldn't want EDI or Hackett's voiceovers to babble on during my ending, at least with Control I get to hear her one more time and get some closure.

 

EDIT: And honestly, do you really believe Bioware would just make one ending that is "the correct one"? After all this time playing the game differently, with dozens of different Shepards? 

 

Agreed.  Very well put.

 

The IT was debunked when there was no DLC ever confirming it as the correct interpretation. The Extended Cut and Leviathan DLCs were the final nails in its coffin. 

 

And agreed again.

[dorktainian]

The IT was debunked when there was no DLC ever confirming it as the correct interpretation. The Extended Cut and Leviathan DLCs were the final nails in its coffin. 

No they were not.  Nothing was either confirmed or denied.  The extended slide shows left more questions than they answered, as did Leviathan.

 

If anything Leviathan was the final nail in the coffin of the ending being quite literally as you see it.

[The Heretic of Time]

No they were not.  Nothing was either confirmed or denied.  The extended slide shows left more questions than they answered, as did Leviathan.

 

If anything Leviathan was the final nail in the coffin of the ending being quite literally as you see it.

 

It also has never been confirmed or denied that Shepard is a pedophile. If anything, Shepard's dreams in ME3 were the final nail in the coffin of Shepard not being at least slightly pedophile.

[Han Shot First]

No they were not.  Nothing was either confirmed or denied.  The extended slide shows left more questions than they answered, as did Leviathan.

 

If anything Leviathan was the final nail in the coffin of the ending being quite literally as you see it.

 

Bioware doesn't do subtle. If IT was intended at any point there would have been the in game equivalent of a flashing neon sign in one of those DLCs, confirming beyond a shadow of doubt that the end sequence was an indoctrinated dream sequence. That didn't happen in any of the DLCs, and the Extended Cut epilogue narration thoroughly demolishes an IT interpretation.

 

Andromeda also throws a final spadeful of dirt over the carcass of IT.

 

If the Indoctrination Theory was the correct interpretation of ME3's endings, Bioware would not need to move the setting to another galaxy. IT would be a gift to anyone who doesn't want the series to move out of the Milky Way, because it effectively canonizes Destroy. Synthesis and Control are variations of a Critical Mission Failure in IT. Bioware wouldn't have to worry about multiple endings, because only one of them would be the correct ending.

 

That Bioware is moving the setting to avoid having to deal with ME3's endings confirms that the IT interpretation of ME3's endings is nothing more than fan head canon. 

[themikefest]

If Shepard were to be indoctrinated, wouldn't Garrus be indoctrinated as well? Take away the Arrival dlc, Eden Prime mission in ME1, Freedom's Progress and Mars, Garrus can be with  Shepard for nearly the entire trilogy

[AlanC9]

Bioware doesn't do subtle.

This. So much this.

[prosthetic soul]

This. So much this.

Nor do they do well thought out, coherent endings that fit in with the theme of the series. 

[Eryri]

If Shepard were to be indoctrinated, wouldn't Garrus be indoctrinated as well? Take away the Arrival dlc, Eden Prime mission in ME1, Freedom's Progress and Mars, Garrus can be with Shepard for nearly the entire trilogy

It depends on how Shepard was resurrected. It wouldn't be too far fetched to imagine that Cerberus used Reaper nanotechnology to do the trick, since they thought they had enough control over it to use on their troopers. In which case he / she would have been exposed to Reaper tech for every minute since the beginning of ME2 - which would actually provide a plot justification for the, otherwise completely superfluous, Lazarus Project.

I apologise for not reading the rest of this thread, but I would like to throw in my two cents worth. I think it's a real shame that Bioware isn't using something like IT in the new game. It just seems odd to write a group of villains with terrifying mind control powers, and not let them actually use them on characters that the audience cares about. Benezia was the only remotely sympathetic victim of indoctrination in the series. I couldn't really care less about Saren or TIM.

I find it a wasted dramatic opportunity not to have Shepard, or even another member of the Normandy crew, succumb. Bit of a Chekov's Gun, really. My favourite parts of Star Trek TNG were Picard's assimilation by the Borg and subsequent trauma. For me, it would nicely subvert the typical videogame power-fantasy to have our seemingly invincible hero fall from grace and be put through hell.

Ah well... What might have been...

[Han Shot First]

 

Indoctrination isn't supposed to obvious

 

That's the point. Bioware doesn't do stories that are subtle and require paying close attention. If indoctrination were intended, we would have had a DLC that hit the player over the head with the "It was all a indoctrination hallucination" hammer.

 

A great example of Bioware not being subtle is Solas.

 

The big twist of DA:I was that he was the Dread Wolf. Rather than drop subtle clues that would only reveal his identity if you were paying close attention, instead you get a epilpgue scene where his secret identity is outright confirmed. That's not intended as criticism with how Solas was written by the way, but it is a good example of how Bioware tends to roll. They don't create stories that require a lot of thinking and interpretation. 

 

The same holds true with the finale of ME3. It is exactly as it seems. The Extended Cut also confirms that with the epilogues.

[Rhaenyss]

And I highly doubt that they would punish the fans who chose something other than destroy as their canon ending. It's cool to speculate, and by all means headcanon it as your own ending, but I don't think it was intended in the slightest. 

[Seboist]

Bioware doesn't do subtle. If IT was intended at any point there would have been the in game equivalent of a flashing neon sign in one of those DLCs, confirming beyond a shadow of doubt that the end sequence was an indoctrinated dream sequence. That didn't happen in any of the DLCs, and the Extended Cut epilogue narration thoroughly demolishes an IT interpretation.

 

Andromeda also throws a final spadeful of dirt over the carcass of IT.

 

If the Indoctrination Theory was the correct interpretation of ME3's endings, Bioware would not need to move the setting to another galaxy. IT would be a gift to anyone who doesn't want the series to move out of the Milky Way, because it effectively canonizes Destroy. Synthesis and Control are variations of a Critical Mission Failure in IT. Bioware wouldn't have to worry about multiple endings, because only one of them would be the correct ending.

 

That Bioware is moving the setting to avoid having to deal with ME3's endings confirms that the IT interpretation of ME3's endings is nothing more than fan head canon. 

 

No kidding, everything from the bizarre contraption David was hooked up to in Overlord,the Michael Vick biotic school in Jack's LM, vent brat's death and humans being slurpeed to make space terminator, are examples of Bioware's try-hard attempts at shock value and emotional manipulation. ME is as subtle as two trains crashing into each other over a bridge and falling in the water below.

 

Then there's "indoctrination" never being anything more than a plot device to generate mooks to kill or to linearize the story(ex. Cerberus and Geth plots in ME3). Not to mention that the moronic IT belief of Shepard breaking free of indoctrination through of his awesomeness violates the lore ,as there's only one case of someone being free of indoctrination, and that's Shiala due to the Thorian(RIP).

 

Anyone still sticking with the fanboy desperation called the indoctrination "theory"(calling it such gives it far more credit than it deserves) is largely doing so out of ego these days. They don't want to face facts that they've spent all this time on a complete fantasy that has zero basis in reality.

[Han Shot First]

The funny thing about Bioware not being subtle, is that even the 'twist' of the Illusive Man being indoctrinated is painfully obvious. Did anyone actually not think he was indoctrinated at Mars, when you are maybe 15 minutes into the game?

[Seboist]

The funny thing about Bioware not being subtle, is that even the 'twist' of the Illusive Man being indoctrinated is painfully obvious. Did anyone actually not think he was indoctrinated at Mars, when you are maybe 15 minutes into the game?

 

I already knew he was from the way Bioware was evasive about the whole thing pre-release, with their saying that there's "more" to it than that(there wasn't).

[The Heretic of Time]

The funny thing about Bioware not being subtle, is that even the 'twist' of the Illusive Man being indoctrinated is painfully obvious. Did anyone actually not think he was indoctrinated at Mars, when you are maybe 15 minutes into the game?

 

Yeah, the whole "they aren't husks, they are improved" line when talking about Cerb's soldiers was the obvious final nail in the coffin of The Illusive Man being anything but indoctrinated. 

 

I'm sure the idea of controlling the reapers started before TIM was indoctrinated, as is shown at the end when it turns out that controlling the reapers is indeed a real possibility, so TIM wasn't completely wrong or completely crazy, but Starchild confirms that while TIM was right, he wouldn't be able to control the reapers because they already controlled him (aka he was indoctrinated).

 

It's just not BioWare's style to keep things ambiguous or a mystery. Solas was the Dread Wolf which eventually gets flat-out revealed in the epilogue. TIM was indoctrinated which eventually gets flat-out revealed at the end. Even the reaper's motives which were previously a mystery are explained in detail at the end of ME3. Like you said, BioWare just can't do subtle and they always show their cards at the end, no exception.

[KaiserShep]

Maybe it should just be called Indoctrination Fanon. 

[dorktainian]

 

Then there's "indoctrination" never being anything more than a plot device to generate mooks to kill or to linearize the story(ex. Cerberus and Geth plots in ME3). Not to mention that the moronic IT belief of Shepard breaking free of indoctrination through of his awesomeness violates the lore ,as there's only one case of someone being free of indoctrination, and that's Shiala due to the Thorian(RIP).

 

 

 

 

Woah wait a mo.  Who says he broke free of indoctrination?  Shepards fate (even in the breath scene) is certainly no guarantee he broke free of indoctrination.  In fact it could be a very bad thing that he wakes up.

 

And there you have the straw that breaks the literalists back.  The breath scene.  

 

[The Heretic of Time]

 "literalists"

 

You do realize that using slurs like that to describe any normal person who accepts the endings for what they are makes you and your fellow ITers look like a crazy doomsday cult, right?

 

PS: Mass Effect stopped making sense long before the ending of ME3. The breathing scene at the end of just BioWare throwing us a bone because some people can't accept Shepard's death.

[KaiserShep]

If the reapers are dead, how can one not break free of indoctrination? What's left to indoctrinate anything? Unless the person is reduced to a drooling nut job, like those salarians on Virmire, I don't see the person still being under the influence of anything. 

[Seboist]

Woah wait a mo.  Who says he broke free of indoctrination?  Shepards fate (even in the breath scene) is certainly no guarantee he broke free of indoctrination.  In fact it could be a very bad thing that he wakes up.

 

And there you have the straw that breaks the literalists back.  The breath scene.  

 

Basically, what you're suggesting is that ME3 has no ending and an indoctrinated Shepard continues to serve the reapers or goes on to off himself ala Saren or TIM. That's supposed to be better than the "literal endings".... how exactly?

 

You do realize that using slurs like that to describe any normal person who accepts the endings for what they are makes you and your fellow ITers look like a crazy doomsday cult, right?

 

I always get a kick out of the ITers using "literalist" as if it's akin to a racial slur.

[Monica21]

I always get a kick out of the ITers using "literalist" as if it's akin to a racial slur.

 

"Literalist" is not a slur and can only be taken as such if one is marginally insane. Also, I wouldn't hang my hat on anything Heretic says, what with him comparing IT'ers to holocaust deniers.

[The Heretic of Time]

"Literalist" is not a slur and can only be taken as such if one is marginally insane. Also, I wouldn't hang my hat on anything Heretic says, what with him comparing IT'ers to holocaust deniers.

 

Which was a valid comparison, you just don't like it because of "muh feelz".

[Monica21]

Which was a valid comparison, you just don't like it because of "muh feelz".

 

It's a completely invalid comparison because real life is not a game.

[The Heretic of Time]

real life is not a game.

 

Irrelevant. It's still a valid comparison.