123 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

"Literalist" is not a slur and can only be taken as such if one is marginally insane. Also, I wouldn't hang my hat on anything Heretic says, what with him comparing IT'ers to holocaust deniers.

 

Sure fooled me with all the contempt they express when using said term and when speaking of them.

 

And I personally prefer to compare ITers to Japanese holdouts in the pacific that lasted into the 60s and 70s and whom thought the war still going on. In this case, the ITers are still holding out for a "reveal" to their make believe 'theory".

[KaiserShep]

"Literalist" is not a slur and can only be taken as such if one is marginally insane. Also, I wouldn't hang my hat on anything Heretic says, what with him comparing IT'ers to holocaust deniers.

It does come with a certain negative connotation though, as if to say that the people who take the ending's presentation at face value are somehow too simple-minded to really see some deeper meaning, when Mass Effect, up to this point, has been anything but deep. Heck, the DLC's basically bolstered the literal interpretation.

Auld Wulf could provide examples, if the mods didn't burn him at the stake.

[Monica21]

Sure fooled me with all the contempt they express when using said term and when speaking of them.

 

And I personally prefer to compare ITers to Japanese holdouts in the pacific that lasted into the 60s and 70s and whom thought the war still going on. In this case, the ITers are still holding out for a "reveal" to their make believe 'theory".

 

 

It does come with a certain negative connotation though, as if to say that the people who take the ending's presentation at face value are somehow too simple-minded to really see some deeper meaning, when Mass Effect, up to this point, has been anything but deep. Heck, the DLC's basically bolstered the literal interpretation.

Auld Wulf could provide examples, if the mods didn't burn him at the stake.

 

Why can't we all just get along?!

 

But no seriously. I came into all this several years late so I don't have any idea what kind of bad blood there is between IT'ers and... uh... "non-IT'ers." Taking the term literally though (no pun intended) it just seems pretty straightforward. There is a literal interpretation of the ending and a non-literal interpretation. If you're familiar at all with the "Loghain committed regicide/no he didn't" threads then you'll know there's no changing anyone's mind at this point.

 

Personally, I think IT is a cool theory. I think it's more interesting than the ending, but I don't really care what other people think nor do I think it matters what other people think.

[Monica21]

Irrelevant. It's still a valid comparison.

 

It's not even close. You seriously need to take a rhetoric or logic class.

[KaiserShep]

Why can't we all just get along?!
 
But no seriously. I came into all this several years late so I don't have any idea what kind of bad blood there is between IT'ers and... uh... "non-IT'ers." Taking the term literally though (no pun intended) it just seems pretty straightforward. There is a literal interpretation of the ending and a non-literal interpretation. If you're familiar at all with the "Loghain committed regicide/no he didn't" threads then you'll know there's no changing anyone's mind at this point.
 
Personally, I think IT is a cool theory. I think it's more interesting than the ending, but I don't really care what other people think nor do I think it matters what other people think.

I have no dog in this fight really; just telling my thoughts on why people might get a tad salty over "literalist".

Wasn't here for the most heated DA:O debates in the past. I'm several years too late.

[Rhaenyss]

I guess it would be a real slur if people being called "literalists" actually gave a s*hit.

[The Heretic of Time]

It's not even close. You seriously need to take a rhetoric or logic class.

 

Coming from you, that is quite funny. :')

[Seboist]

Why can't we all just get along?!

 

But no seriously. I came into all this several years late so I don't have any idea what kind of bad blood there is between IT'ers and... uh... "non-IT'ers." Taking the term literally though (no pun intended) it just seems pretty straightforward. There is a literal interpretation of the ending and a non-literal interpretation. If you're familiar at all with the "Loghain committed regicide/no he didn't" threads then you'll know there's no changing anyone's mind at this point.

 

Personally, I think IT is a cool theory. I think it's more interesting than the ending, but I don't really care what other people think nor do I think it matters what other people think.

 

ITers were the most obnoxious users back during the early ME3 forum days. They'd come into a thread and try to make it revolve around their grasping at straws nonsense and mock so called "literalists" for not buying into it.

 

Much like how calling the IT a "theory" gives it far more credibility than it deserves, so does calling it an "interpretation". The IT wouldn't have ever existed if these fanboys got their little happy endings with space waifu/manfu at the beach.

 

Personally, I think IT is even more retarded than the (real) endings.

[The Heretic of Time]

ITers were the most obnoxious users back during the early ME3 forum days. They'd come into a thread and try to make it revolve around their grasping at straws nonsense and mock so called "literalists" for not buying into it.

 

Much like how calling the IT a "theory" gives it far more credibility than it deserves, so does calling it an "interpretation". The IT wouldn't have ever existed if these fanboys got their little happy endings with space waifu/manfu at the beach.

 

Personally, I think IT is even more retarded than the (real) endings.

 

Hell, I bet the IT wouldn't even exist if the breathing scene for high-EMS Destroy never existed.

 

A lot of people realized that the endings of ME3 didn't really make much sense. Obviously to those who are objectively paying attention to the series the nonsencial endings are nothing significant, because the smarter people among us realized that Mass Effect stopped making sense long before the endings, but the real butthurt fanboys who believed that Mass Effect was "perfect" until the last 10 minutes of ME3 didn't want to accept that ME3 would end in such a way, so they started clinging to the nonsensical breathing scene in the hope that it would be "proof" that Shepard's story wasn't over yet, in their mind it couldn't be over, not like this.

 

And thus the "Indoctrination Theory" was born.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Maybe they stepped up their game for ME3. There was a lot of subtle things in ME3.

 

If the first game tell us its subtle, they aren't going to switch it around to obvious because as you said Bioware doesn't do stories that are subtle and require paying close attention. If indoctrination were intended, we would have had a DLC that hit the player over the head with the "It was all a indoctrination hallucination" hammer.

 

If the ending is any clue, you might see a lot of this stuff in the next game. Things that aren't completely obvious and require you to connect some dots and pay attention.

 

If that turns out to be the case, I would stay away,

 

I agree. Mass Effect 3 had some of the more subtle writing in games so far. I spend hours wondering over the meaning of the nightmares with the kid. Or what about the issue of genophage? Bioware really did a phenomenal job presenting a counter arguement to the cure in the form of the Dalatrass. Same with the Geth consensus mission, it really showed how things weren't as clear cut as "oppressed robots and evil Quarians" as one would believe.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Hell, I bet the IT wouldn't even exist if the breathing scene for high-EMS Destroy never existed.

 

A lot of people realized that the endings of ME3 didn't really make much sense. Obviously to those who are objectively paying attention to the series the nonsencial endings are nothing significant, because the smarter people among us realized that Mass Effect stopped making sense long before the endings, but the real butthurt fanboys who believed that Mass Effect was "perfect" until the last 10 minutes of ME3 didn't want to accept that ME3 would end in such a way, so they started clinging to the nonsensical breathing scene in the hope that it would be "proof" that Shepard's story wasn't over yet, in their mind it couldn't be over, not like this.

 

And thus the "Indoctrination Theory" was born.

 

The ME3 ending was the logical conclusion after the schlock that was the Lazarus project.

 

Funny how people ate that **** up, yet when served the same plate at the end they refused to accept it and instead conjured up a mass delusion in the form of IT.

[The Heretic of Time]

The ME3 ending was the logical conclusion after the schlock that was the Lazarus project Mass Effect 2.

 

Funny how people ate that **** up, yet when served the same plate at the end they refused to accept it and instead conjured up a mass delusion in the form of IT.

 

Fixed that post for you.

But yeah, I agree.

[Dantriges]

It was more a "I can go along with that or uninstall" in my case.

[q5tyhj]

Why the Indoctrination Theory is not correct... Hmmm...

 

1. Its patently retarded, much more so than the actual ending- that's saying quite alot

2. Its inconsistent with the actual game.

 

Do we really need to say any more?

[Rhaenyss]

Yeah, I agree. Isn't it possible to headcanon IT without resorting to "it was all a dream"? When did this particular trope ever sound like a good idea to resolve endings of any sort?

[Seboist]

Yeah, I agree. Isn't it possible to headcanon IT without resorting to "it was all a dream"? When did this particular trope ever sound like a good idea to resolve endings of any sort?

 

It does to those desperate for their little happy ending/wish fulfillment with space waifu and whom want to think BW didn't screw up. The idiotic IT was never anything more than a "get out bad endings free card", which is why these ITers trying to pass off their little fantasy as a legit "theory" always made me LOL.

[Ithurael]

It does to those desperate for their little happy ending/wish fulfillment with space waifu and whom want to think BW didn't screw up. The idiotic IT was never anything more than a "get out bad endings free card", which is why these ITers trying to pass off their little fantasy as a legit "theory" always made me LOL.

 

While I do largely agree on the "get out of bad ending free card", I am not sure if it had anything to do with the happy ending/wish fulfillment concept.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am sure we have both seen many ITers clamor that they wanted a happy ending for shep and crew - this I know.

 

However, I think the predominant aspect of IT - in how it came to being - was a culmination of a few things:

- Disgust or repulsion from the vanilla ending and the presentation

     - Disbelief of the event and possibly feeling tricked or cheated

     - Lack of narrative coherence in the ending that caused too many questions and implausibilities

- Brand strength of Bioware's products (and the ME series as a whole)

- Post-Purchase Rationalization*

*=http://www.jstor.org...an_tab_contents

*=https://en.wikipedia...rationalization

 

Now, that - along with the power of the internet and the ability to form communities will inevitably lead to group think. Add to this we now have human nature taking over (in that humans do desire to have a sense of community and validation and we have the sense of superiority from 'figuring it out' when everyone else did not). I reason this out because many IT arguments seem to follow the core belief (or assumption) that: "It HAS to be a dream, there is NO WAY that is/can be real". Add to that a strong sense of community from others who agree with you and validate your statements, and the confidence/ego boost that was the idea that you somehow figured something out that no one else did and you have a great social study.

 

That is what I at least observed. I am sure there are outliers, but from what I saw, yeah, those were the strongest pointers.

 

I should note that ITers aren't crazy or delusional people, nor are they bad. They are humans - susceptible to the same things anyone is susceptible to. Hell, I know I have been in a situation like that at an earlier time in my life lol.

[Seboist]

If the fanbase(not just the ITers) truly cared about quality of the writing/narrative, then things like Cerberus Sith Empire, Lazarus, Space Terminator and ME2 as a whole would get as much as ire as the ME3 endings. ME2 did irreversible damage to the franchise by not advancing the plot one iota(galaxy is no better prepared than in ME1, nor is any means of stopping the reapers found) and by ending with the reapers at the galactic gates. This all paved the way for Crucible and ME3 endings.

 

Another common gripe is "Muh choices didn't matter in the end!", gee, took them that long to figure out they were playing a linear third person shooter with faux-choices that only result in "choose your five second cutscene" and interchangable throwaway dialogue? There's never been a lick of real difference between paragon vs renegade or import vs default state.

 

So yeah, happy ending wish fulfillment is all this is ultimately about based on this.

 

As to the ITers not being nuts, well, if you've seen the stuff I've seen, saying that they "grasp at straws" would be an understatement.

[mcglsr2]

Woah wait a mo.  Who says he broke free of indoctrination?  Shepards fate (even in the breath scene) is certainly no guarantee he broke free of indoctrination.  In fact it could be a very bad thing that he wakes up.

 

And there you have the straw that breaks the literalists back.  The breath scene.  

 

 

Why couldn't it make sense?  Where you there when it exploded?  Who knows?  Explosions in space would expand flame quickly as it blew out.  Just because you see a large cloud of flame does not mean everything within in consumed in flame (and in reality I doubt we'd even see that much of the flame on an explosion in space, that just isn't how it works).  Shepherd could have easily survived that, indoctrination not required.  And it doesn't matter, I don't even need to justify this - the point is, who knows?  You cannot claim indoctrination theory because of a breath cut scene at the end of high-EMS Destroy with something wearing an N7 tag.  That is just ridiculous.

[mcglsr2]

Why the Indoctrination Theory is not correct... Hmmm...

 

1. Its patently retarded, much more so than the actual ending- that's saying quite alot

2. Its inconsistent with the actual game.

 

Do we really need to say any more?

 

Yah, that was pretty much what I said in my original OP, just with more words to backup my conclusion (so people don't think I just pulled it out of my ass; rather I gave it actual thought).

 

Not all ITers believe it was a dream.

 

Then what does that sect believe?  Isn't the point of IT to say that it is a "dream?"  Perhaps the word "dream" is the hangup - too literal?  "Hallucination" here is meant the same as "dream."  If some ITers don't think it was a "dream/hallucination" - then what's the point of IT?  Not trying to be a jerk, I'm legitimately curious what stance an ITer has if it wasn't a dream/hallucination.  Just because I don't think IT stands on its own doesn't mean I can't learn something new about it.

 

 

I didn't realize the other side of the camp had a label - Literalist. Makes sense though.  I guess I am one of those, as I accept the ending (for better or worse) as it is, with my resulting "choice."  I don't mind being called that, I didn't realize there was any significance or condescension wrapped up in the word "Literatist" - it's no different to me than "ITer" and neither, IMO, is inflammatory.  If someone is calling me a Literalist (or even vice versa with ITer)  and intending it to be degrading or derogatory, well I am totally going to lose like 0 sleep over that.  Really, zero effs given, it doesn't even bother me.

[DeathScepter]

i can tell that the OP is indoctrinated. so listen to yourself, you are indoctrinated.

[mcglsr2]

For me, there is nothing in the game that says that shooting a tube resists indoctrination. That part is fan fiction.

 

So, everything from Harbinger's beam to walking towards the tube happens as they claim. Except for the resisting indoctrination, and actually finishing off the Reapers later. You shot the tube, destroyed the Reapers, and you finish the game.

 

If you think about it, they would have to create a special ending sequence where only 0.0001% of the people could see. Not everyone picked destroy, and even less got their EMS high enough to see the breath scene. The other endings, Shepard dies, so only those who pick destroy would be able to see the actual ending. From a business standpoint, this is impractical. Yet, people clinged to the idea, hoping that Bioware would follow through and make this the real ending. It didn't happen. Why? Well, as they said many times. There is no canon ending to ME3, you the player decides. So I didn't really expect them to tell people the real meaning.

 

From a business standpoint, it actually makes sense.  Think about it this way: look at the game from the perspective of the real world (bear with me, not trying to be a jerk).  You/your company just spent a lot of time making a game.  Sure, someone could speed run it in 3 hours.  But they miss out on pretty much all that content you put in there.  You got their money already, so who cares, right?  But do you think that person will spend the money on DLC's too?  Extra content?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  But the person who is committed, the person who spends the time exploring the game, they are almost guaranteed to buy additional content.  Okay, so how do we encourage them to get the "full experience", to bring them into our world?  Ah, well, it wooooould be nice if Shepherd lives.  I think pretty much everyone who played through 3 games would not be "meh" about Shepherd dying.  Heyyyyy, if you get high enough EMS, he gets to live!  Does the player know that on the first play through?  Maybe not.  But there's this thing called the internet.  Secrets don't stay secrets for long.  The player learns there is a way to save the Shep.  They have to play the game.  And the iOS app.  And the whatever other stupid thing that they had for Galactic Readiness that immersed the player into the world (and encourages them to spend money and time on the franchise).  We cannot forget that this game is not made by some garage indie company that puts story front and center, bar none.  Nope.  This is Big Business.  With deadlines.  And budgets.  And VP's and such that have to collect fat paychecks, provided by the gamers (which I'm not knocking, I pay to play).  So, maybe the above has nothing to do with the breath scene.  But they maybe it does.  Point is, we don't know, and thus can't discount it.  We can't assume the devs put that scene in there from the goodness of their hearts.  Who knows what motivations there were.  And we could argue that perhaps only a very small number of people might encounter the breath scene so why bother unless it's significant - except that I bet you a dollar TONS of people chose the DESTROY option to see the scene.  I know I did on a play through.  I replayed since I don't want that to be my Shep's choice - but I did play that ending.  To see that scene.  I bet you a LOT of people have.

 

i can tell that the OP is indoctrinated. so listen to yourself, you are indoctrinated.

 

Clearly.  The Reapers are alive and well, and have Indoctrinated Bioware to create a game about Reapers and Indoctrination to throw us off the path of the fact that we are indoctrinated (because obviously that's how the Reapers operate).  The ending they want is the CONTROL and SYNERGY, which is you hallucinating that you are choosing those options in the game.  Using color psychology.  Because that's what they do.  Accepting the ending of the game as literal (which is what I am trying to convince you to do, because I am indoctrinated) is letting the Reapers win.  The ITers are right and the only way for humanity to survive (which the Reapers don't want, of course - and I mean like real humanity, this is real, we are actually at war with aliens IRL) is for you, the ITers, to choose the DESTROY ending.  The game is a hallucination in your mind.  Fight indoctrination, ITers, choose the DESTROY option!  Get a gun and shoot your computer/console, quick!  Before it's too late!