123 réponses à ce sujet

[The Heretic of Time]

Why couldn't it make sense?  Where you there when it exploded?  Who knows?  Explosions in space would expand flame quickly as it blew out.  Just because you see a large cloud of flame does not mean everything within in consumed in flame (and in reality I doubt we'd even see that much of the flame on an explosion in space, that just isn't how it works).  Shepherd could have easily survived that, indoctrination not required.  And it doesn't matter, I don't even need to justify this - the point is, who knows?  You cannot claim indoctrination theory because of a breath cut scene at the end of high-EMS Destroy with something wearing an N7 tag.  That is just ridiculous.

 

Not to mention that pic Dorktanian linked is old and outdated. It's from pre-EC. I just rewatched the EC high-EMS destroy ending to see if the exploding Citadel still is there, it isn't. There's still a blast, but they toned it down a lot in the EC and it no longer blasts the Citadel or the mass-relays to smithereens.

[The Heretic of Time]

That's what the Reapers want you to think, OP

 

What is that video supposed to prove exactly? Nothing in that video suggests that the EC epilogues would be the result of indoctrination.

 

Also, keep in mind that the Control epilogue is the epilogue that BioWare put the most effort in. It's the most diverse ending with 4 different speeches depending on whether Shepard was Paragon or Renegade and whether he cured the genophage or destroyed it. I highly doubt BioWare would put so much effort into a "fake" ending.

[Seboist]

What is that video supposed to prove exactly? Nothing in that video suggests that the EC epilogues would be the result of indoctrination.

 

Also, keep in mind that the Control epilogue is the epilogue that BioWare put the most effort in. It's the most diverse ending with 4 different speeches depending on whether Shepard was Paragon or Renegade and whether he cured the genophage or destroyed it. I highly doubt BioWare would put so much effort into a "fake" ending.

 

That's what the ITers want you to think, Heretic.

[Rhaenyss]

Also, the simplest solution is usually the right one. Shepard is alive in the high EMS destroy ending, because 1. it's a reward for people who want Shepard to live (hence high EMS requirement), 2. it's the only possible ending where Shepard is not 100% dead right away (so you need to pick Destroy). 

[Seboist]

Also, the simplest solution is usually the right one. Shepard is alive in the high EMS destroy ending, because 1. it's a reward for people who want Shepard to live (hence high EMS requirement), 2. it's the only possible ending where Shepard is not 100% dead right away (so you need to pick Destroy). 

 

Problem is, the more narcissistic and ego driven among us want to show off their intellectual chops by discovering hidden "clues" and coming up with a brilliant "theory" that the rest of us dimwits can't figure out.

[The Heretic of Time]

Not the whole video, the lines I linked to.

 

Sorry but the link didn't go to any specific time-stamp in the video, it just played the video from the start. Care to quote the lines that you think prove that the EC epilogue scenes might be indoctrination?

[Kabraxal]

Also, the simplest solution is usually the right one. Shepard is alive in the high EMS destroy ending, because 1. it's a reward for people who want Shepard to live (hence high EMS requirement), 2. it's the only possible ending where Shepard is not 100% dead right away (so you need to pick Destroy). 

Why is the simplest usually the right?  Granted, I think the simplest answer is right, in that the writing just failed at the ending no matter how much I will headcannon IT to make sense of it.  But I don't get this worship of Occam's Razor... the simplest answer doesn't mean it's the right answer.

[Natureguy85]

Why is this a new thread? While a cool idea, IT never held any water. What happens to Shepard is nothing like how Indoctrination is described. Here are the big ones.

 

Oily Shadows: People are misusing this line from the Rachni Queen. She uses it in reference to how she doesn't know about the Rachni War. She is telling you her memories are clouded and not clear. It has nothing to do with Indoctrination. When referencing the influence that drove them to be aggressive, whether it was the Reapers, Leviathans, or something else, she refers to it as a "sour yellow note". Secondly, the Rachnis' minds work very differently from ours. They were interesting because they were the most truly alien species in the game. There is no reason that we should see the same thing as she did, even if she was being literal rather than metaphorical.

 

Whispers: Shepard hears voices in his dreams, and they are quiet, almost whispers. But they are not strange, unknown voices. The whispers described by Indoctrinated subjects are either unintelligible or giving orders, as with the Salarian on Virmire. Shepard clearly hears the voices of fallen friends in his dreams. This leads into the last one;

 

Consciousness: Indoctrinated subjects experience symptoms when they are awake. Shepard has dreams and experiences nothing while conscious other than imagining the boy at the beginning. Shepard's mind is breaking, but it's from the weight of everything on his shoulders over the course of the series, not Indoctrination.

 

While some include these things and more in IT, some claim there is no Indoctrination until the very end. This is silly for two reasons.

 

1) Rapid Indoctrination leaves the subject pretty much useless as it fries their brain. So what's the point?

 

2) The Reapers are about to destroy the combined resistance fleet. Once they win here, they will easily beat whatever is left. They have no need of Shepard. They don't need him to convince the fleet to stand down. They don't need him to let them into "Zion" like in the Matrix. So again, what's the point?

 

 

Like I said before, IT is cool and the story really should have done something with it. After all, having a strong enough mind and will to handle the Prothean visions was what made Shepard special in the first game. The game even mentions it at least twice. However, Bioware dropped all of this in favor of "Shepard is an icon" and just really good at shooting things. A wasted opportunity, really.

[The Heretic of Time]

Why is the simplest usually the right?  Granted, I think the simplest answer is right, in that the writing just failed at the ending no matter how much I will headcannon IT to make sense of it.  But I don't get this worship of Occam's Razor... the simplest answer doesn't mean it's the right answer.

 

People who say that the simplest answer is the right answer don't understand Occam's Razor.

 

Occam's Razor is supposed to be a problem-solving tool for the philosophers. When there are two or more hypothetical solutions to a hypothetical problem, then the solution with the fewest assumptions is be the best solution.

 

This usually only applies to scientific hypotheses or philosophical problems. But sometimes it can also be used in other situations.

 

For example:

 

Problem: The endings of ME3 suck and are a mess. 

 

Solution 1: The endings aren't real and Shepard is indoctrinated.

 

Solution 2: BioWare screwed up with pulp schlock writing.

 

Solution 2 would be the better solution not because it's the simplest, but because it relies on the fewest amount of assumptions. We already know that BioWare's writing sucks sometimes because the story and plot of Mass Effect was already an incoherent mess long before the endings of ME3. Yet we've never seen BioWare trying to trick their audience with clever writing. So assuming that BioWare tried to trick us with the ME3 endings is a bigger assumption than assuming that BioWare simply screwed up. Therefor it's better to assume that BioWare simply screwed up with the ME3 endings.

[Abedsbrother]

I do believe Shepard was being indoctrinated, but I also believe Starchild / TIM / Anderson were not figments of his imagination, but real.

 

1. Indoctrination Codex entry.

2. Re: Shepard's dreams, this little bit from Arrival: https://youtu.be/8DjzUqav-BI?t=8m54s. There is no doubt that the person in question was being indoctrinated, and one of the symptoms was a recurring dream of death, destruction and lost ones, ending with a sudden awakening in a cold sweat. How it happens in ME3 to Shepard is hard to explain, but I have no doubt there was an indoctrination attempt occurring. It wasn't particularly strong or pervasive, or the Prothean VI would have detected it. Maybe the Reaper IFF was never removed from the Normandy? EDI was utilizing Reaper code to achieve a higher level of self-awareness; perhaps she saw parts of the IFF as crucial to continuing that development (she was already lying to the Alliance crew who retro-fitted the Normandy).

3. The line from right before Shepard gets hit with the beam. Harbinger says "Serve us!" It could also be a very guttural "Save us!" And to those who say the line / sound is random Reaper sounds, this line / sound was not in the original game at this place; it was added with the Extended Cut. Which means it was a deliberate addition added in accordance with BioWare's intention that EC "clarify" the ending we were given.

[The Heretic of Time]

3. The line from right before Shepard gets hit with the beam. Harbiner says "Serve us!" It could also be a very guttural "Save us!" And to those who say the line / sound is random Reaper sounds, this line / sound was not in the original game at this place; it was added with the Extended Cut. Which means it was a deliberate addition added in accordance with BioWare's intention that EC "clarify" the ending we were given.

 

Harbinger doesn't say anything there. You just hear what you want to hear. Your own mind is playing tricks on you. I don't blame you, it's how the human mind works. We see patterns because we want to see patterns, even when there are none. We also hear comprehensible voices because we want to hear comprehensible voices, even when the sound is just a random noise or random incoherent ramblings. It's our human mind that tries to make sense of things that are nonsensical. This trait served us well and it's the reason why we evolved as a species, but sometimes it makes us see, hear or believe things that simply aren't there.

 

In case you didn't know, that exact same sound Harbinger makes can also be heard from other reapers earlier in the game, as early as the prologue on Earth.

[Natureguy85]

People who say that the simplest answer is the right answer don't understand Occam's Razor.

 

Occam's Razor is supposed to be a problem-solving tool for the philosophers. When there are two or more hypothetical solutions to a hypothetical problem, then the solution with the fewest assumptions is be the best solution.

 

This usually only applies to scientific hypotheses or philosophical problems. But sometimes it can also be used in other situations.

 

For example:

 

Problem: The endings of ME3 suck and are a mess. 

 

Solution 1: The endings aren't real and Shepard is indoctrinated.

 

Solution 2: BioWare screwed up with pulp schlock writing.

 

Solution 2 would be the better solution not because it's the simplest, but because it relies on the fewest amount of assumptions. We already know that BioWare's writing sucks sometimes because the story and plot of Mass Effect was already an incoherent mess long before the endings of ME3. Yet we've never seen BioWare trying to trick their audience with clever writing. So assuming that BioWare tried to trick us with the ME3 endings is a bigger assumption than assuming that BioWare simply screwed up. Therefor it's better to assume that BioWare simply screwed up with the ME3 endings.

 

Well when people say "simplest" they mean "fewest assumptions". And IIRC it's not that the simplest is correct, it's that the simplest is most likely.

 

I do believe Shepard was being indoctrinated, but I also believe Starchild / TIM / Anderson were not figments of his imagination, but real.

 

1. Indoctrination Codex entry.

2. Re: Shepard's dreams, this little bit from Arrival: https://youtu.be/8DjzUqav-BI?t=8m54s. There is no doubt that the person in question was being indoctrinated, and one of the symptoms was a recurring dream of death, destruction and lost ones, ending with a sudden awakening in a cold sweat. How it happens in ME3 to Shepard is hard to explain, but I have no doubt there was an indoctrination attempt occurring. It wasn't particularly strong or pervasive, or the Prothean VI would have detected it. Maybe the Reaper IFF was never removed from the Normandy? EDI was utilizing Reaper code to achieve a higher level of self-awareness; perhaps she saw parts of the IFF as crucial to continuing that development (she was already lying to the Alliance crew who retro-fitted the Normandy).

3. The line from right before Shepard gets hit with the beam. Harbinger says "Serve us!" It could also be a very guttural "Save us!" And to those who say the line / sound is random Reaper sounds, this line / sound was not in the original game at this place; it was added with the Extended Cut. Which means it was a deliberate addition added in accordance with BioWare's intention that EC "clarify" the ending we were given.

 

1) Shepard doesn't experience this

 

2) I actually forgot about this. It is one example of someone having a reaction via a dream. However, this is more akin to the Prothean beacon vision or the vision Shepard sees from Object Rho than Indoctrination.

 

3) No, Harbinger doesn't say "serve us". I see where people are coming from, but it really doesn't sound like it and requires a big stretch. Not that it's the same sound effect in any language version of the game. It's just Reaper noise.

[Abedsbrother]

Harbinger doesn't say anything there. You just hear what you want to hear. Your own mind is playing tricks on you. I don't blame you, it's how the human mind works. We see patterns because we want to see patterns, even when there are none. We also hear comprehensible voices because we want to hear comprehensible voices, even when the sound is just a random noise or random incoherent ramblings. It's our human mind that tries to make sense of things that are nonsensical. This trait served us well and it's the reason why we evolved as a species, but sometimes it makes us see, hear or believe things that simply aren't there.

 

In case you didn't know, that exact same sound Harbinger makes can also be heard from other reapers earlier in the game, as early as the prologue on Earth.

So why was it added to the Extended Cut, if it serves no purpose? Snotty response, btw. You don't blame me (like I can't help myself)? I just need you to enlighten me on how the human mind works and how it helped our development as a species. Seriously? gtfo 

 

Heard on Earth? Never noticed that. Could you link a video?

 

Well when people say "simplest" they mean "fewest assumptions". And IIRC it's not that the simplest is correct, it's that the simplest is most likely.

 

 

1) Shepard doesn't experience this

 

2) I actually forgot about this. It is one example of someone having a reaction via a dream. However, this is more akin to the Prothean beacon vision or the vision Shepard sees from Object Rho than Indoctrination.

 

3) No, Harbinger doesn't say "serve us". I see where people are coming from, but it really doesn't sound like it and requires a big stretch. Not that it's the same sound effect in any language version of the game. It's just Reaper noise.

1) Argument can be made that Shepard does experience this. 

 

2) Don't see how you can know that, since the dream from the Arrival scientist is never depicted. We do know that it repeats, since she says in the clip that she had that dream "again." 

 

3) I don't know what the operative word is, whether it is serve or save (or shag, lol). Something -us. It was not present in the original game. It was added in the Extended Cut. Even if the assumption is that BioWare half-assed ME3, the Extended Cut was their deliberate attempt to mollify fans and explain their ending. So the inclusion of this line / sound is not there by chance.

[The Heretic of Time]

So why was it added to the Extended Cut, if it serves no purpose? Snotty response, btw. You don't blame me (like I can't help myself)? I just need you to enlighten me on how the human mind works and how it helped our development as a species. Seriously? gtfo 

 

Woah bro did somone piss in your coffee today? Did your feelings get hurt? And you tell me I'm snotty. You need to take a chill pill man.

 

PS: The reason why it's added to the Extended Cut is because the entire cutscene is added to the EC. The 2nd half of the beam run is now replaced with a cutscene of the Normandy picking up your squad and Harby shooting Shep after it. So what that they added a generic reaper sound to Harby in that cutscene? If Harby was really speaking to us in that cutscene, don't you think he'd be using his regular voice that he has been using since ME2?

 

I'm telling you, you're just hearing things. Harby doesn't say jack to us in the EC cutscene.

 

You can hear the same sound on earth, here: https://www.youtube....0D4BDA#t=17m32s

Or here: https://www.youtube....ow5jnfE#t11m53s

[The Heretic of Time]

Hiring voice actors isn't cheap. They had a budget for the Extended Cut, and they could only fit in so many voice actors. I mean, you've got Hackett, Shepard, the kid, and EDI, but it doesn't include everyone else and Harbinger.

 

They sort of dug into their regular DLC budget in order to make it. Some stuff had to be cut.

 

Two words are too expensive and need to be cut? So therefor instead they inserted an unintelligible sound that's supposed to sound like "serve us"?  A sound that can be heard in every level with reapers? Yeah right. You're really grasping at straws there mate.

[The Heretic of Time]

Or perhaps Harbinger isn't saying "serve us". Ever occur to you?

[Natureguy85]

So why was it added to the Extended Cut, if it serves no purpose? Snotty response, btw. You don't blame me (like I can't help myself)? I just need you to enlighten me on how the human mind works and how it helped our development as a species. Seriously? gtfo 

 

Heard on Earth? Never noticed that. Could you link a video?

 

1) Argument can be made that Shepard does experience this. 

 

2) Don't see how you can know that, since the dream from the Arrival scientist is never depicted. We do know that it repeats, since she says in the clip that she had that dream "again." 

 

3) I don't know what the operative word is, whether it is serve or save (or shag, lol). Something -us. It was not present in the original game. It was added in the Extended Cut. Even if the assumption is that BioWare half-assed ME3, the Extended Cut was their deliberate attempt to mollify fans and explain their ending. So the inclusion of this line / sound is not there by chance.

 

The entire scene is different. They changed Shepard getting blasted to a cutscene. It doesn't make any part of that cutscene meaningful. Again, while I can hear it if I try, it really doesn't sound like anything.

 

1) No, it really can't. Shepard doesn't hold the Reapers in awe and doesn't hear voices or see ghostly presences when conscious. The voices in the dreams are specific to Shepard's experiences, not like what is described.

 

2) The dream is described, so I know what's in it.

 

3) Correct, it's not there by chance, but that doesn't make it any more than just a sound affect. As I said above, they changed the entire scene.