67 replies to this topic

[Billy Buskell]

Dragon Age: Inquisition Multiplayer Support for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 Going Forward:

 

Since the release of Patch 8 on July 6, 2015, some of you have been asking what sort of support we’ll be providing for Dragon Age: Inquisition Multiplayer on PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360.

 

The team had to make the tough decision to end new content and patch support for older systems. This affects single-player and multiplayer DLC content, as well as patches.

 

For single player and multiplayer, we wanted to provide some assistance to players who were preparing to make the jump to the new generation of platforms, which is where the Dragon Age save importer came in.

 

In the case of multiplayer, the DAIMP team remains committed to keeping the live service going for all players. This means we will continue to run weekly challenges on both PS3 and Xbox 360 for as long as we run them on PS4, Xbox One, and PC.

 

 

Thanks,

 

The DAIMP team

 

 

Note: In addition to this thread, please direct any comments, concerns, or complaints to @dragonage on twitter and facebook, or contacting EA support directly. These are the appropriate places to encourage people to post, or send messages.

Edited by Conal Pierse, 28 July 2015 - 09:37 PM.
Clarification: This feature was developed for Multiplayer as well as Single Player.

[Billy Buskell]

Too bad you couldn't have put some of this effort into continuing to provide reasonable support for the PS3/360 owners who bought your product in good faith; instead, after countless hours invested, dealing with massive bugs and glitches, and your deafening silence on the subject, our loyalty is rewarded with this outright kick in the balls.

 

I plan to buy a PS4 in the fall, but despite having been a Bioware fan since there have been Bioware games, I'm going to have to re-evaluate my gaming options. Any company that would willfully mislead it's customers in such a manner is certainly not worthy of my continued support. The only way I can see myself continuing to support your company and it's products will be if you decide to man up and do the right thing by providing a free, or at the very least, heavily discounted upgrade to new gen consoles for those of your customers you've currently decided aren't worthy of your time.

 

Thanks Bioware.

 

While I understand that some are frustrated or upset by this news, I must ask (since it's mentioned by several posters) what was done by BioWare, or the teams, to mislead players?  If there are examples, I am happy to try to address them here.

 

Billy

[Fiddzz]

I wonder if they had to flip a coin for who was gonna break the news. Billy gets this thread while Blar gets the two good news items.

We played Rock Paper Scissors Bo5.  I won 3-2.

[Billy Buskell]

http://www.destructo...3--279147.phtml

 

At the time of the interview (prior to the launch of the game, just before PAX Prime 2014), the mode as a whole was being referenced. Not speaking to specific platforms.

 

Support does not refer exclusively to patches, or DLCs. It refers to a team continuing to actively work on the feature/mode/game. 

 

We are continuing support of the mode, with more weekly challenges that will extend far beyond what was delivered on ME3MP (I can say this with certainty, since I assisted with setting up the pipeline and content for that game and live service as well). Each weekly challenge is content that is created by the team here. That support will continue.

 

Billy

[Billy Buskell]

I had no idea when buying said Bioware product that DLC (and other extras/support) would not be the same as the newer gen platforms. Why did my product cost the same as others?

Very very very unsatisfied customer who has supported Bioware for years.

 

The cost of the game is exactly that. The price for the purchase of the game in the box, or digital download. 

 

At the time of a game's launch we do not go into details about DLCs due to the nature of announcing and what it means for release dates. Once we have a DLC pack in a state that we are reasonably confident it will launch at the quality level we are aiming for, and on a targeted date, we then announce the DLC pack. BioWare very rarely announces packs more than a few days before launch. This is due to logistical realities of certification and ensuring everything is ready for a smooth launch. Patches often get announced on the day they are released, for the same reasons.   

 

Downloadable Content is in addition to the game you buy at the store. We build all DLC after the main game is completed, as the team frees up from their main game tasks. For Multiplayer, we have given away both DLC packs, as well as patches for no additional cost for all platforms. Single player DLC packs are often sold at their own price, however, we did provide The Black Emporium via patch at no additional cost on Dragon Age: Inquisition. 

 

Some companies and products elect to do a "season pass" or other similar business model, in which a "promise" is made that some amount of content (sometimes very specific details are given, including names, other times more vague statements like "we will release 3 DLC packs") will be available for a discounted price for committing to the full "season". For those that do no subscribe to the season pass, they will pay a premium to buy the pieces individually, but are afforded the same "promise" that content is being created with the intent to deliver on that. On Dragon Age: Inquisition we elected to avoid that route. 

 

 

Billy

[Billy Buskell]

FTFY

 

Using the quote function to "quote" me and changing the text to something I have not said to berate me... classy.

 

Billy

[Billy Buskell]

Going to try to respond to a few points:

 

Does BioWare/EA expect you to buy another copy of Dragon Age: Inquisition?:

There is NO expectation that anyone who has bought the game on PS3 will buy it again on PS4, The same can be said about Xbox 360 and Xbox One.  The save importer was created to be available in the event someone started on PS3/Xbox 360, didn't complete the game, purchased/acquired a PS4/Xbox One since starting their original playthrough/MP progress, and wants to continue on the new hardware.  If no one ends up using the feature, that's ok.  We know some players have used it.  We hope it helped to ease the transition.

 

Why no free copy?  You (EA) did this before for <title X>?

The title referred to in a link at the start of the thread, was Battlefield 4.  The reason that offer was available was due to the impending hardware launch.  Battlefield 4 launched on PS3 and Xbox 360 just 1 week prior to the PS4 and Xbox One systems launching.  To avoid players feeling they would have to wait a week to start playing, thus falling a week behind other players in a competitive shooter community (and potentially spoiler issues for the single player campaign), the offer was created by Sony and Microsoft.

For the Jaws of Hakkon and Spoils of the Avvar (the 2 paid SP DLC packs that release prior to the announcement of no additional DLC support on PS3 and Xbox 360), we were able to work out a deal with Sony and Microsoft so that if you owned them on PS3, you can download them on PS4 at no additional cost. If you owned them on Xbox 360, you can download them on Xbox One at no additional cost.

 

Why is the Dragon Age: Inquisition Trial only available on PC?:

The Dragon Age: Inquisition Trial is available for PC because that was the platform we were able to create it for.  It has nothing to do with favourites or fairness.  Setting up a trial, or any product, is a very complex undertaking. It relies on many factors being true, or false, to allow it to even be discussed, let alone brought to completion.  My spreadsheets for tracking the work made even Blair scared... he sits right beside me and knows exactly how complex everything we do is... so that should be telling. The necessary factors lined up on Origin.

 

A few questions regarding PS Now and Xbox One backwards compatibility came up as well.  I'll try to clarify those a bit later.  They are a bit trickier, since at this time, DAI is not in the catalog for either feature.  Just a general FYI, my current understanding is that any game available on the older and new platforms is less likely to appear on PS Now or Backwards Compatibility (due largely to the fact that they are added as a means to play a game that would be otherwise unavailable on the newer platforms).

 

I want to ensure everyone here that at no point in the decision making process, the work to split patches, or the delivery of the messages, did anyone at BioWare assume this news would be taken well, that we'd be celebrated for the work we'd done, or that people would say "thank you".  We knew, and we know, that this was not fun news to receive.  As Proto pointed out, it was also not fun to deliver.  Blair is good at RPS, but honestly this communication was always going to land on me.  I am the producer responsible for Multiplayer on Dragon Age: Inquisition.  That title comes with the good (having a blast chatting with folks on the forums, on weekly Twitch streams, announcing challenges, and changes/updates to the game), and the bad (having to deliver this kind of news to a passionate bunch, that loves a game, and wants to keep loving it).  

 

We always appreciate everyone's feedback.  It's essential for us to learn and improve.  I hope you continue to deliver your feedback to us.  It's one of my favourite parts of being a BioWare team member.  Very few studios have the opportunity to engage directly, and daily, with such an incredibly passionate group of players.  I hope that never changes.

 

 

Billy

[Billy Buskell]

Billy, do you know why the old gens were included in the first place?

 

To allow as many players as possible to play the game.  As another poster pointed out, had we elected to not ship the game on PS3 and Xbox 360, we'd have received even more strongly worded messages, and lovely requests for us to choke on various items.  

 

I understand you're upset, but let's apply some logic here.  To everyone who asks "why even ship on PS3/Xbox 360??!?!!?", the alternative you're suggesting is that we should have shipped on PS4, Xbox One, and PC only.  In that alternative, you would not have been able to play the game at all.  At least without swapping to PC, or buying one of the new consoles.  I'm not seeing that as a solution for either side.

 

Some points I'd like to remind everyone of:

1) If you wish bodily harm or ill to the staff, that is a violation of the terms of service of the forums. You're upset. We get it. Check the full thread. If you are thinking of uttering threats or hoping to see someone on the dev team be harmed, please back away from the keyboard for a moment, take a deep breath, and don't post it (Would you ever say these things to someone's face? Try using that question as a filter going forward).

2) You're absolutely allowed to ask questions to others or the devs.  If we answer the question, that's the answer.  Ignoring the answer, possibly because it was not the answer you wanted to see, and spamming the same question, or commenting how we are refusing to address the issue will not lead us to answer further. In fact, this leads to the opposite reaction. There was a long period of time when the boards became so hostile that most of the dev team vacated them. I really never want to return to that.

3) If you're going to start a mass PSN/XBL message to everyone on your friend's list asking everyone to express their outrage regarding this topic double check you don't have any BioWare developers on your bulk message... seriously.

 

 

Billy

[Billy Buskell]

Well screw it lets glitch lobby to sit 4000 points them jump t o ps4. They can't ban us any more on the ps3 if they don't patch us. I think it's s grand plan. Funny thing is I heard most good players are in older consules. That's what I'll be planning I'm doing going to ps4 with 3-4k points. Or just never buying anything bioware again. It was shitty service from the gate now this? Lol hands down worst developers ever.

 

You are openly admitting to planning on breaking the terms of service of the game. Doing this will result in bans.

 

Billy

[Billy Buskell]

...ok I don't usually double-post, but I have a legit question for Billy.

 

Billy--

 

You basically just told us PS3/Xbox 360 players that we need to buy a second copy of this game if we want access to everything that we thought we already paid for. So it may not have been BioWare's intention to mislead, but that doesn't mean we weren't mislead.

 

Whining on an online forum is obviously not going to solve anything, but many of us have invested too much time in this game to be ok with getting left in the dust. The ability to transfer data to a newer console is not a valid solution for many of us either, since many of us PS3/Xbox 360 players are using those systems because we cannot afford anything newer.

 

That said, what would you suggest we do to address this situation productively?

 

This was answered previously. The $60 purchase price is for the game. The unfortunate answer is that the PS3 and Xbox 360 are now just months away from being 9 and 10 years old, respectively.  This November will mark the 2 year anniversary of the new generation of consoles.  

[Conal Pierse]

Hey Everyone,

 

I would like to reiterate that you please be respectful of both the devs and one another in this thread. We understand if you are upset, and respect that fact, however, that is no excuse to be rude or abusive to anyone in this thread.

 

If you choose to continue to violate the terms and services of this board, I will start handing out suspensions.

 

The multiplayer team is doing their best to answer your concerns and address the questions as you raise them. For a variety of reasons, they may not be able to answer everything, or to answer specific points to a level you consider satisfactory. Again, i understand many of you are not happy with the decision to no longer provide DLC and patches on PS3 and Xbox 360. That being said, there will be zero tolerance for any posts directly harassing another member of these boards, or any activity that encourages such behaviour.

 

Please play nice with one another.

[Conal Pierse]

 As I clearly stated, I included "ehlien" for the sake of transparency. As for "getting off Billy's back", as the chosen rep for this decision I'm sure he has the maturity and experience to handle his job.

With regards to this point in particular, no, Billy is not the person you should be sending messages to with regards to this decision. He has come on these boards, as he has done in the past, in efforts to create more transparency and to address the community's concerns as best he can.

He is doing this of his own free will and in his spare time. Targetting developers who choose to take time to work with the community with mass mailing/messaging campaigns is not an appropriate way to get a response. In fact, it's a surefire way to scare someone away from wanting to talk to the community.

 

Billy and the multiplayer team are doing their best to be open and honest with you about these decisions, and are addressing what they can, when they can.

 

If you would like to make your thoughts known, I would encourage you to contact @dragonage on twitter and facebook, or contacting EA support directly. These are the appropriate places to encourage people to post, or send messages.

 

Billy and his team will still get your feedback when you submit it in this fashion, but it will be more manageable and comprehensive than personally inundating him with responses.

 

Thanks for understanding.

[Conal Pierse]

I got a warning for that last gif... So if I post some words with it, it should be fine?

 

Can you elaborate on why the warning was given and gag order imposed?

If you don't want to post in a way that is conducive to a constructive conversation, then please consider not posting. There is a difference between articulating that you aren't happy with a company's decision and simply posting a gif, particularly one about money-grubbing Canadian devils.

 

You are welcome to voice displeasure with a decision, or to talk about how you feel about something as a gamer. That being said, please do so in a way that is respectful of others and that obeys our site rules.

 

And yes, I am well aware that some things are generally more lax in other threads or parts of the forum, but this thread is not the rest of the forum. I have politely asked you all to be respectful to the devs and one another. I will be handing out warnings and suspensions to people who are not able to abide by the site rules.

[Conal Pierse]

It may have gotten buried on the other page, but if you are looking for the best avenue to direct any comments or complaints, then I would recommend that you to contact @dragonage on twitter and facebook, or contacting EA support directly. These are the appropriate places to encourage people to post, or send messages.

 

Posting on the official Dragon Age channels will be more likely to get you a response, than the EA twitter, for example. Also, please note that there is a profanity filter on the Facebook pages. As a standard policy we do not remove posts from Facebook unless they contain profanity, offensive content, or violate the site's terms of use.

[Conal Pierse]

Speaking of transparency... why only tell players on this forum? That's only being transparent to a very small percentage of the PS3/Xbox360 player base. Not everyone checks these forums, or even know they exist.

 

It's completely unfair to the rest of the players that will continue to invest time and money in a game you no longer support for them, when you're not informing them of your decision to do so.

 

I applaud Brew's efforts to communicate this momentous news to the community of players he knows on PS3 and beyond. Bioware, you've done nothing to communicate the news beyond this forum. That's sad, and bad PR. You remain active on FB and Twitter, but nothing has been said on those mediums about this decision to kick us to the curb after we stuck it out for 8 months.

The discontinuation of DLC and patches on Xbox360 and PS3 was announced publicly alongside the release of the save importer system.

Billy chose to talk about what this means for multiplayer in more depth on these boards because this is where our more vocal and active members of the community are. This is also where the multiplayer team has been coming for the past several months to talk directly to our players.

Accusing the team of not being transparent because they are actively posting here is ridiculous. Had something gone out over twitter, we'd see people complaining that we are using social media that "not everyone checks" instead of posting on our own boards (as we regularly have in the past). Had we posted on reddit or neogaf instead of these boards, it would be the same.

For a variety of reasons, there are things they simply are not able to go into detail on, which I know can be frustrating at times.Please understand that the team is doing their best to address your concerns and answer questions.

[Billy Buskell]

Please don't mention "FREE" DLC because you already paid for it... In fact when you first bought the game you bankrolled this extra content. It's not "FREE" it's drip fed content you already paid for. 

 

Much like everyone who paid for this game, bankrolled every piece of DLC paid or "FREE" has been released or soon to be released.

 

You know what's free? That FREE Multiplayer they gave out to people who never paid a cent towards any of the development costs of the main game and the future content.

 

Let's clarify a few points here, because we've already discussed this, but it keeps being brought up with the same incorrect statements.

 

1) DLC is developed after the main game is finished.

The free MP DLC was started as soon as the game completed certification, literally the next day, still weeks before the game is released to the public.  This means that yes, the development of DLC was started after the game was finished, but before it was available for sale.  The argument that you have already bankrolled this free content is inaccurate, incorrect, and has already been stated as such several times on the boards.  When you purchase the game for <insert price at time of purchase>, you have purchased the game.

 

2) The Trial has nothing to do with DLC.

There is no connection between the Trial and DLC. At all. Separate teams were responsible for the development of each product.

 

3) Why no discounted upgrade pricing?  

While it was never directly tied to, or marketed as such, there have been a number of discounted price opportunities since the announcement that DLC support would discontinued for PS3 and Xbox 360.  Throughout the month of July, Dragon Age: Inquisition has been on sale, at up to 50% off regular price, for physical or digital copies 4 separate times, with a wide range of retail partners.  In many cases, these sales were being retweeted or shared by team members on social media.

3a) Why not make it specific to the upgrade?

Because we wanted everyone to have a chance at the discounted prices.  If you're playing Multiplayer and thinking about upgrading, you may also be talking to friends who are thinking about upgrading as well, or buying DAI for the first time.  If you can both benefit, that's awesome.

 

4) Stating "Person X is not evil, Company Y is actually evil." is no better than the original statement that someone is evil.  

BioWare and EA work together. We're partners.  No one hands down an "evil doctrine" that the other must abide by.  Decisions are made together.  Someone stating that EA is evil is just as upsetting to me as someone saying Billy Buskell is evil. I chose to work for EA and BioWare.  I greatly enjoy working for both companies.  If I felt either was evil, I would not choose to work for them.  I applied to work at EA Canada in 2005.  I did not believe EA to be evil then.  I applied to work at BioWare to work in 2006, not because EA was evil, but because I truly believed in what I saw BioWare working on (Mass Effect 1) was going to be amazing.  EA bought BioWare in 2007.  I stayed with the companies because I really loved what both companies were striving for in the future.  It's 2015. I am still at BioWare.  Because I know what we have coming is even better than what we've accomplished to date.

 

Folks, as Conal and I have mentioned previously, we enjoy having good, healthy, constructive discussions with all of you.  When the communication stays within those boundaries, everyone can have a good time.  When the team is accused of not responding to something that has either already been addressed, or has been addressed to the level that we are able to explain, or when the team is accused of intentionally trying to harm or break trust with a group, this is not generally going to encourage team members to continue, or join new, conversations. 

 

We understand some of you may not be thrilled with this news.  This thread has very clearly demonstrated that.  Some news we have to deliver is not fun to deliver. This is one of those instances.  We don't take these decisions lightly.  However, we must do what's in the best interest of the product and the service as a whole. 

 

There are ways to express displeasure or frustration without resorting to attacks. I am happy to continue this discussion with those that wish to ask polite questions, or provide constructive criticism.

 

 

Billy

 

PS: If you are still upset, and/or feel that I am evil, and need ways to subtly attack us to let the steam out, while avoiding being banned from the forums here are some ProTips.

To troll Billy:  

- Misuse "there", "their", and "they're" as often as possible in your posts.

- Ask about how much I've spent on donuts in 2015 (be prepared to cry if I respond).

- Remind me about how I don't have any Hakkon weapons in MP yet.

To troll Blair:

- Refer to him as BLAR.

- Ask about the colour green.

To troll Conal:

- Use a double space after each period/sentence in your posts.

[Billy Buskell]

http://forum.bioware...ords-and-mauls/

 

Well played.

 

Billy

[Conal Pierse]

Wait, Blar feels trolled by being called Blar? Fridays must suck for him

A lot of days suck for Blar. It's just public on Fridays.

[Billy Buskell]

Billy,

 

Why so defensive? Of the last several pages on this thread, I don't see anyone attacking or threatening you. We're just calling you out on how you and your team have handled this situation, and how BW/EA's lack of transparency has lead to our current frustration. Own up to it and move on. We get that your job is hard.

 

3. When we reach out to our fellow community to inform them of this momentous change in support, we are scolded for our efforts and accused of rabble rousing. Seriously? (I'm speaking of course of your earlier scolding of Brewskin's post, that was pretty childish of you)

 

 

I believe there is some confusion here.  

 

My tone of "here is what is actually happening" to correct misinterpretations, theories, and assumptions has remained constant since my first reply (original post was simply stating the news).

 

While I appreciate the feedback that the message could be in additional places, such as social media, the fact that we posted it here was for transparency.  We realized that based on posts on the forums (there may be similar on social media, I just haven't seen them) regarding the topic of DLC and Patch support for PS3 and Xbox 360.  Rather than allow it to continue to spiral, we addressed the issue to clarify for those asking.  We addressed the issue where it surfaced.  It's that simple.

 

Regarding scolding Brewskin's post.  In my response on the forum, I called attention to the mass message I was included in on PSN.  In that post I noted, if you are going to incite a user base about a topic, in hopes of getting folks riled up to take action, don't include the person that posted the news you're upset about.  This has actually happened to me 4 times this month, from 4 different players, on 4 different topics (3 prior to Brewskin).  Each time so far, the person had added me due to seeing my gamertag on the forums and forgot they were messaging a dev when sending an angry call to action.  This is why I brought attention to it this time.  It was becoming a pattern (not with a specific individual, but overall).  Did I need to be included in the mass message?  No.  Not in my opinion.  But, in his opinion it was the right thing to do to provide me a heads up.  Brewskin and I spoke via DM about what the intentions were with the mass message, and we're all squared as far as I am concerned.  Following that, Conal simply clarified for everyone by restating that including a dev on a mass message/call to action in response to something a dev has posted is not something that should be done, especially via PSN/XBL/Origin.  Can you send a mass message/call to action to incite a group regarding a topic?  Absolutely.  100%.  Just don't include the devs on it.  At best it looks like a mistake, at worst it looks like an attack/dragging the dev through it.  I don't expect everyone to agree with that.  You don't have to.  But, if that request is not respected, we have communicated that it's not acceptable, and not in the spirit of what the forums are meant for.

 

I don't think I've ever asked for any sympathy regarding my job at the company.  My first response stated that I am well aware of the responsibilities of my job and role at the company.  I chose to be the one to post the clarification to the boards.  I cleared it with several key stakeholders to ensure that the post was worded in such a way that it should remove any remaining ambiguity on the topic.  When I chose to be the one to post, I was very aware of what could, and did, follow.  I believe that qualifies as owning up to it.  For each post that says "move on", there have been 5 stating "you've gone silent" or "you refuse to respond", sometimes from the same poster claiming we need to move on.  I've continued to respond to provide additional clarity where I can.  

 

 

Billy

[Billy Buskell]

Q: What does a Winnipeg Jets fan do when his team wins the Stanley Cup?
A: He turns off the PlayStation.

 

 

HAHA! Awesome! Prior to posting that response, I actually had a suggestion about mocking my favourite teams, but I didn't want any other Jets fans to suffer for my actions :-)

[Billy Buskell]

LMAO you actually fixed it!

 

I might not be a fan of Bioware anymore, but you're a ok in my book.  haha!

 

Your a cool guy Billy.  Their, there, and they're must be you're biggest pet peeve.

 

I wish I could claim this one... but that is the work of a very crafty Community Manager :-)

 

Billy

[Conal Pierse]

From what ive gathered, if it hurts biowares fee fees then it is classed as an abusive attack or something. That said, I couldnt find it on change.org, but i wouldn't link it just incase you get smacked with a warning or a ban.

There's nothing wrong with posting a link to a petition. people have done it in the past without a problem and have even included them in their signatures.

And sorry if you have hurt fee fees over people asking you to be respectful of other people's fee fees. Maybe some warm milk will help?

[Bryan Johnson]

Alright I am going to jump into this thread and start answering some directed points, so bare with me

I actually don't see why offering upgrades doesn't make financial sense, if we're talking downloads for those who transfer accounts.  A downloaded game, in and of itself, costs basically nothing.  At most a couple cents for bandwidth and a tiny bit of labor to get it up on PSN/XBox One Game Store.  The charge is to recoup the cost of game design and development, a charge which these players have already paid.

 

So I am just going to talk about the "couple cents for bandwidth", the article may be a bit old but afaik this practice is still in place

 

http://multiplayerbl...adable-content/

 

16 cents/gb * 40gb = 6.40 so definitely not cheap.

 

Microsoft doesnt charge for bandwidth, but they would need some sort of incentive for people to pay more (because yes MS is a business)

[Bryan Johnson]

Bioware devs confirmed they are never going to fix any of the bugs their patches caused. 

 

https://www.reddit.c...en_inquisition/

If you are going to "quote" me you should quote all of what I said 
"Its possible those will never be fixed." and "No what I am saying is there are some things where they simply wont get fixed, because of a number of factors. This is not a "new" thing, it happens for pretty much every game that comes out."

[Bryan Johnson]

If I understand correctly, dealing with Sony/MS to give free copies on the next-gen consoles isn't possible (it'd require EA/BW to spend more $$), but what about handing out coupon codes which would apply a large discount on the digital copy?

If such a coupon code were to happen, then they would have to be provided by MS and Sony (since obviously we cant make up codes that work on their systems), which would mean we would have to pay for those codes, and it is not pay for the codes upon redemption it is pay for those codes on request. Meaning that if we asked for 1000 codes, but only 10 were used, we would have to pay for all 1000 of those.

 

The only system where this is not the case is PC, since we own the distribution means.

 

@Pork, just they took one of your posts