639 réponses à ce sujet

[Innarra]

There's nothing wrong with posting a link to a petition. people have done it in the past without a problem and have even included them in their signatures.

And sorry if you have hurt fee fees over people asking you to be respectful of other people's fee fees. Maybe some warm milk will help?

 

 

I must say... This post is rather condescending considering it is a valid point due to ToS being used when it suits the moderators of this forum.

 

Also connotations of him needing to be treated like baby after you just cut off support to his platform is really unprofessional and you are actually directly mocking him.

 

Which may I add, are all in violation to the ToS of this forum... You can't ask for people to respect the ToS if employees of the company are not upholding these themselves.

 

Seriously, Conal. Scene_Cachet has a real point here. This is your customer base. Why treat us with such disrespect?

 

Can you even report a Dev for poor behavior on their own forums? I dunno. Reported. 

 

[Gya]

2. Drasca will now forever be known as "DRASCAS"

Drascas pls.

Comiserations to all old gen peeps. The situation sucks. For those old gen guys who have a PC that can support DA:I, is there any possibility of getting that free MP trial back? I doubt it'd be possible to transfer all the data across, but it would be something?

I've learned a lot from this thread. Mostly, what a fee fee is. I cannot unlearn this. Thanks guys.

[JAMiAM]

Oh and so far I have not taken anything personally except being falsely represented. Only once have I been driven to anger from this board.

Well...BroJo, I have only one thing to say about that.  Mister, you're a better man than I.  Yeah, Mister you're a better man than I...

 

[Pork]

Bryan, we may disagree on some issues but i just want you to know that i have a huge amount of respect for you for giving technical insight and for discussing things in a calm professional manner here.

Really hope to see you more in the next mass effect game.

[Bryan Johnson]

Bryan, we may disagree on some issues but i just want you to know that i have a huge amount of respect for you for giving technical insight and for discussing things in a calm professional manner here.

Really hope to see you more in the next mass effect game.

Thank you very much for the compliment, and unfortunately you likely will not, as I am not slated to go to that project.

[Shadohz]

-snip-

Would you look at that BroJo answered 2.5 out of 5 of the questions I posted.

 

So BroJo would you agree that issuing a End-of-Support (EOS) or End-of-Lifecycle (EOL) notification prior to a major release and at the earliest possible time is a pretty standard software business practice?

[Bryan Johnson]

Would you look at that BroJo answered 2.5 out of 5 of the questions I posted.

 

So BroJo would you agree that issuing a End-of-Support (EOS) or End-of-Lifecycle (EOL) notification prior to a major release and at the earliest possible time is a pretty standard software business practice?

Well I was not directing my answers to you, (otherwise would have quoted you). So not sure if you are saying you are happy I answered or upset that I didnt answer all. And looking at your history I can see the quesitons you asked. So I can state quesitons 1-3 can not be answered by me, since my role is not to make decisions, nor am I privy to when they occur if the people who make those decisions do not include me. Number 5 is answered as common code base, technically different solutions for each platform but that exists mainly for things like build settings (the solutions are auto generated) then you have # defines for specific consoles. Some data has variable sliders but that gets dealt within a pipeline.

 

Given the gaming industry I see very rarely an actual statement for end of life of either DLC or Patches, I will see a statement for cutting server support but generally not for patches or DLC.

 

 

Also to address your point about warranty and software, directly in our terms of service it is stated you are buying a product as is and as available. At the time of purchase there was no DLC and no patches available. Now I know this is not the most popular thing to bring up, but it is indeed a fact and stating we are changing the rules midway through, is not the most accurate. 

 

Side note:

Given that you seem to be part of the software industry, can you definitively state to me that you or your colleagues have never once shipped something that was intended to be a prototype out as the 'finished' product?

[Nightwitch588]

For the offering free upgrades or a discount look a page or 2 back when I say that, that would be a very costly thing to do.

Having to buy a new copy of Inquisition (and potentially the console as well, not to mention ps+ for certain users who want to enjoy multiplayer) isn't, though? I even sprung for deluxe, which was confirmed on reddit that it doesn't even carry over like other dlc. I'll have to buy that again TOO if I care to keep it.

I'm still more concerned why the most recent version news of lost support isn't being posted elsewhere and more prominently, as people have a right to know. Anything broken when they buy those old gen versions are genuinely as is now, despite the game only being 8 months old. Not the case elsewhere, and until now not a common business practice. They're being perfectly reasonable in assuming broken aspects of their game will be fixed.

More so, I'm concerned with why efforts to spread these facts seem to be discouraged. I've seen reddit posts being voted into the dust, heard of amazon reviews being deleted, and even just the unprofessional responses from employees to customers on the forums I've witnessed right here.

You may not be in charge of the decisions those at the top make, even when those decisions become increasingly shady looking. That isn't your fault and shouldn't be held against you, though I can see why it would rile people up further if they felt you were defending those decisions. (Seriously though, even for those aware enough to have even heard the rumors to know to Google this, typing in 'old gen console support dropped inquisition' only mentions the earliest information when it brings up dlc, NOT patches. None of the top links lead to the bioware forum, and not this thread in particular which was listed as the choice for transparency reasons, I believe? I had to actively dig to find it again when a friend couldn't believe the rumors of DAI's support drop going beyond just dlc were true. Is it mentioned at all on psn, either, where old gen DAI is on sale now for the EU? Last I had heard, it wasn't. Shhhaadddddddyyyyy.)

You are in charge of yourselves though : were the shoes on the opposite foot, would you feel being told to go drink warm milk like a baby be appropriate EVER, much less coming from an employee who also admits you have good reason to feel upset?

[DragonRacer]

1. Wow, in the paragraph I set to bold, I really learned a lot. It also gives people with more level heads verifiable facts to state when others use simple, frothy, emotional appeal. I would have loved to been able to list stuff like this, but all I could really say previously was, "A lot of factors go into discontinuing support on last gen systems". Anyway, you are a pretty cool dude Bryan. I hope you cleared this with your boss. Doing explanations like this is so opposite of what usually happens that somehow I have this vague sense that you will get in trouble ._.

 

2. Drasca will now forever be known as "DRASCAS"

 

It is so, so nice to see BroJo here again, even if fleeting. 

 

You can already see why we loved him so in the ME3MP forum. Good fellow and answers what he can as best he can. And he's highly intelligent, Yumi, he's not one to slip up and over-explain something that would land him in trouble. BroJo'll be just fine.

 

 

Thank you very much for the compliment, and unfortunately you likely will not, as I am not slated to go to that project.

 

Well, poo. I know it's not something you can probably answer publicly, but I hope that means you're eventually moving on to the mysterious "new IP" project and not out of the company entirely.

[MeatShieldGaz]

This is a really shitty thing to do to loyal customers of the franchise. If there was no intent to support the old generation consoles, then the decision to release the game in those formats is blatantly motivated by greed.

 

This is what angers me the most - someone knew this would happen but decided to release on old gen regardless. The person(s) who made that decision is clearly not a gamer.

 

I was not given any indication of this during development, advertising, or when I purchased the game.

 

The DA story that I love ends here for me, all because of greed. 

 

You guys are working for a really shady company, which will longer be getting my cash. I would be ashamed and embarrassed to be an employee of EA or BW. 

 

Edit - this feels like when Firefly was cancelled, that's how pissed off I am at this news.

[Shadohz]

Note to self: Next time ask for the QA guy first.

Well I was not directing my answers to you, (otherwise would have quoted you). So not sure if you are saying you are happy I answered or upset that I didnt answer all.

Both actually.

 

 

Given the gaming industry I see very rarely an actual statement for end of life of either DLC or Patches, I will see a statement for cutting server support but generally not for patches or DLC.

The gaming industry not adhering to traditional software models is a separate matter (that I've brought up before) however the question centered around the software market in general. Most users would say yes they have an expectation of an announcement if/when support for the product they are using is dropped. Let's split the baby and say in regards to patches, SP is not updated near as much as MP and support announcements in one manner or another are usually made for MP games, though this may vary by company. For the sake of those reading, here are examples of EOS and EOL announcements. Depending on who you're talking to, the terms can be interchangeable. My own personal definition of EOL is zero support, all dependent systems removed (no servers or back up systems exist to support or run the product anymore).

 

 

 

Also to address your point about warranty and software, directly in our terms of service it is stated you are buying a product as is and as available. At the time of purchase there was no DLC and no patches available. Now I know this is not the most popular thing to bring up, but it is indeed a fact and stating we are changing the rules midway through, is not the most accurate. 

 

Side note:

Given that you seem to be part of the software industry, can you definitively state to me that you or your colleagues have never once shipped something that was intended to be a prototype out as the 'finished' product?

TOS aren't ironclad and people may have additional protection via consumer protection laws, including against as-is, that vary by country, state, or province. That's why all these corporations (not specific to the gaming industry) keep changing their arbitration clauses. As-is doesn't allow a seller/retailer to carte blanche sell a defective product (or one made defective by the seller/retailer).

 

Your sidenote: Depends. Before I was hired I heard horror and "remember the time" stories. Some of those people went on to become managers and senior-level employees. As we hired more qualified professionals that knew how to run a software company, those people were terminated. I wasn't sad to see them go. If you're drawing a comparison to DAIMP where 50% of the product is in a prototype phase, then the answer is no. If you mean have we ever shipped a product and gutted deliverables then yes however you'd be talking about sub-features. We have daily SCRUM meetings and monthly team meetings (including with support) about current objectives and pending changes. We outline, prioritize, create/fix, then ship (rinse and repeat). Due to the time and data sensitive nature of our market, we aren't afford the luxury of, for lack of better term, guinea pigging our clients on the production side. We invest millions and several years of research on scratch products even before we reach out to beta clients. Option 2 is to buy out competitors or a niche product, keep their best people, and expand our tentacles (i.e. pulling a EA/MS).

My beef isn't with BW dropping legacy. It was the lack of notification. When asked was the decision made prior to the Nov sale, I'm given the run around, being psych-analyzed by people who don't even have a Psychology degree (at least when Amelia did it she made me laugh ), or being told I need to kowtow for an answer.

Sidenote: Did you feel threatened by any of my questions? How do I play ME3 DLCs offline once BW or EA goes out of business or shuts down servers?

[Pork]

It is so, so nice to see BroJo here again, even if fleeting.

You can already see why we loved him so in the ME3MP forum. Good fellow and answers what he can as best he can. And he's highly intelligent, Yumi, he's not one to slip up and over-explain something that would land him in trouble. BroJo'll be just fine.

For real. Bryan is the only dev who actually seems like he cares deeply about both fans and his company. Very professional, very calm and answers difficult questions very well.

I really like how users (including myself) have really grilled him and instead of being snarky or offended, he actually engages us like adults to discuss points.

Bioware, if you are reading this, take a leaf from brojos book, because he has done more in one thread than the rest of you have failed to do in 8 months: made me feel like my business is valued.

[Shadohz]

For real. Bryan is the only dev who actually seems like he cares deeply about both fans and his company. Very professional, very calm and answers difficult questions very well.

*nod* It's disassociation. He separates himself from the entity (BW the corporation). Clients are generally upset at a policy, procedure or politic. When employees personalize the rant then they only create more tension. Not everyone is meant for phone support or customer interaction.

[HeroicMass]

Thank you very much for the compliment, and unfortunately you likely will not, as I am not slated to go to that project.

 

I cannot express the depth of my sorrow over this statement.  Having you around is always such a delight.  Best wishes into the next project you are slated to go to though.

[Bryan Johnson]

It is so, so nice to see BroJo here again, even if fleeting. 

 

You can already see why we loved him so in the ME3MP forum. Good fellow and answers what he can as best he can. And he's highly intelligent, Yumi, he's not one to slip up and over-explain something that would land him in trouble. BroJo'll be just fine.

 

 

 

Well, poo. I know it's not something you can probably answer publicly, but I hope that means you're eventually moving on to the mysterious "new IP" project and not out of the company entirely.

I am moving to the new IP on October

 

 

Note to self: Next time ask for the QA guy first.

Both actually.

 

 

The gaming industry not adhering to traditional software models is a separate matter (that I've brought up before) however the question centered around the software market in general. Most users would say yes they have an expectation of an announcement if/when support for the product they are using is dropped. Let's split the baby and say in regards to patches, SP is not updated near as much as MP and support announcements in one manner or another are usually made for MP games, though this may vary by company. For the sake of those reading, here are examples of EOS and EOL announcements. Depending on who you're talking to, the terms can be interchangeable. My own personal definition of EOL is zero support, all dependent systems removed (no servers or back up systems exist to support or run the product anymore).

 

 

TOS aren't ironclad and people may have additional protection via consumer protection laws, including against as-is, that vary by country, state, or province. That's why all these corporations (not specific to the gaming industry) keep changing their arbitration clauses. As-is doesn't allow a seller/retailer to carte blanche sell a defective product (or one made defective by the seller/retailer).

 

Your sidenote: Depends. Before I was hired I heard horror and "remember the time" stories. Some of those people went on to become managers and senior-level employees. As we hired more qualified professionals that knew how to run a software company, those people were terminated. I wasn't sad to see them go. If you're drawing a comparison to DAIMP where 50% of the product is in a prototype phase, then the answer is no. If you mean have we ever shipped a product and gutted deliverables then yes however you'd be talking about sub-features. We have daily SCRUM meetings and monthly team meetings (including with support) about current objectives and pending changes. We outline, prioritize, create/fix, then ship (rinse and repeat). Due to the time and data sensitive nature of our market, we aren't afford the luxury of, for lack of better term, guinea pigging our clients on the production side. We invest millions and several years of research on scratch products even before we reach out to beta clients. Option 2 is to buy out competitors or a niche product, keep their best people, and expand our tentacles (i.e. pulling a EA/MS).

My beef isn't with BW dropping legacy. It was the lack of notification. When asked was the decision made prior to the Nov sale, I'm given the run around, being psych-analyzed by people who don't even have a Psychology degree (at least when Amelia did it she made me laugh ), or being told I need to kowtow for an answer.

Sidenote: Did you feel threatened by any of my questions? How do I play ME3 DLCs offline once BW or EA goes out of business or shuts down servers?

Alright ill start with the bottom up, to answer your sidenote before I left the project one of the last things we did was prepare a sunset patch for both ME2 and ME3 so in the case of shutting down servers that will be deployed. In the case of the company going out of business, that I can not comment on, because if such a thing were to happen depending on the means of the type of the company going out of business then it might not be possible. 

 

I cant comment on the decision for when to notify, so cant comment on that. Also based on my recollection, I do not recall hearing anything about dropping past-gen support prior to the game launching. 

 

Do I feel threatened by your questions? Not directly, although I know that these types of questions are likely to end up spreading and possibly onto news journalism sites if they are not clear. 

 

The reason I asked my sidenote is a matter of curiosity, I had heard from people that some products were released while they were technically prototype. Given my experience in the software industry is limited to Academia and the Game industry, I was curious. 

 

You are correct that ToS's are not ironclad and may include notes and may have concessions due to local laws etc. That is actually covered in the ToS:

http://tos.ea.com/le...TERMS/US/en/PC/

 

In your example of EOL and EOS, EA does provide notification of EOL. And for EOS you could argue that is what this, but just because patch support is cut doesnt mean that the entirety of the product is not supported.

[pwnjabber]

Bryan thank you for taking the time to share techincal insights with us.

I want to bring the focus back to the point of offering a discounted download for transitioning old genners. You brought up the figure of $6.40 as the cost of facilitating the download. Why not make the discounted price of upgrade $6.40 then? You could even make it $7.40 and still make a buck off everyone (which honestly seems to be a higher priority for this company than sustaining a loyal fanbase for the long haul).

BW is hesitant to post the important news of discontinued support anywhere besides this small venue, and for good reason! The fact is, you are all ashamed and embarrassed by the decision and want to cover it up and sweep it under the rug as much as possible to do damage control. However, the discount would turn this all around. Example: "Hey everyone DAI's updates and DLC have grown the game so much that it no longer fits on the PS3 and XBox 360. But now you can upgrade your DAI to the next gen for ($6.40), which is the cost of the download it itself. Happy gaming y'all." And that's how you start to build a fanbase based on trust, respect, and transparency instead of walking on eggshells (eggshells being the legacy gamers) and hoping none of them screams too loud.

Bryan your posts convey an attitude that EA's public image is already wrecked with negativity, and so why bother trying make it right. Bioware should be treating this "unfortunate news" more as an opportunity to build a more positive relationship with the customer... Not leave them in the dark.

[Shadohz]

The reason I asked my sidenote is a matter of curiosity, I had heard from people that some products were released while they were technically prototype. Given my experience in the software industry is limited to Academia and the Game industry, I was curious.

I'm sure that goes on somewhere. More than likely that would occur in smaller companies, high performance teams or if your firm created a Vista-like application (so bloated internally that you didn't have time to add bells and whistles) I suppose. I'm sure I've tested a finalized program before that should've been marked as a Eval. What is a prototype is subjective. If I compare your release to a competitors and see that you only offer the basic features (bare functionality), then I'd consider it a prototype. If the final version of your product at the end of the year has +40 new major features than the original release, then I could say you released prototype. These are my own opinions mind you.

 

The only real difference between traditional software companies and what I can see from the outside-in with gaming is that games are expected to be near-perfect on initial release with a few updates as possible. Traditional systems are a bit more flexible. Once you get the base version out, you can set recurring periods for doing updates and enhancements every year. Great system if you don't mind repetitiveness, rigidity, and a steady paycheck. If the gaming market tried this you'd have a revolution on your hands. You already see how gamers feel about DLCs.

[Bryan Johnson]

Bryan thank you for taking the time to share techincal insights with us.

I want to bring the focus back to the point of offering a discounted download for transitioning old genners. You brought up the figure of $6.40 as the cost of facilitating the download. Why not make the discounted price of upgrade $6.40 then? You could even make it $7.40 and still make a buck off everyone (which honestly seems to be a higher priority for this company than sustaining a loyal fanbase for the long haul).

BW is hesitant to post the important news of discontinued support anywhere besides this small venue, and for good reason! The fact is, you are all ashamed and embarrassed by the decision and want to cover it up and sweep it under the rug as much as possible to do damage control. However, the discount would turn this all around. Example: "Hey everyone DAI's updates and DLC have grown the game so much that it no longer fits on the PS3 and XBox 360. But now you can upgrade your DAI to the next gen for ($6.40), which is the cost of the download it itself. Happy gaming y'all." And that's how you start to build a fanbase based on trust, respect, and transparency instead of walking on eggshells (eggshells being the legacy gamers) and hoping none of them screams too loud.

Bryan your posts convey an attitude that EA's public image is already wrecked with negativity, and so why bother trying make it right. Bioware should be treating this "unfortunate news" more as an opportunity to build a more positive relationship with the customer... Not leave them in the dark.

 

Hello, you may have missed my further note. Although the dollar amount may be 6.40 (for Sony), attempting to facilitate such a thing would be far more costly than that, plus remember we would need to get both MS and Sony on board for such a thing, so there has to be a financial incentive for them to do so. 

 

I believe Billy mentioned we worked with retailers to put on things like half off sales already.

[Yumi]

Pwnjabber, (and others doing the same)
Can you please stop with the passive aggressive comments re: (make a buck off everyone higher priority etc). It's all conjecture on your part.
The only fact relating to EA as a public company is that it has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders. Usually that is making profit, but it can also include things like building brand goodwill. But yes, the general point of capitalism is to make money.
Also, 6.40 is a simple fee for the provision of the bandwidth. That doesn't include other charges Bryan didn't mention. For instance We also don't know if BE/EA would be financially responsible for residual downloads either (deletes and reinstalls). What about the cost of negotiations and paying the salaries of people working on that project?

Business oftentimes is complex. There are a million moving parts behind the scenes. King of like the million hidden deals and things that took place in the background in order for Obama to secure the nuclear treaty with Iran.


Business doesn't always boil down to:

"F**k b*****s, get money".




For everyone in general, it really hurts the real conversation we as consumers and companies as content providers should be having. How can we even aspire to a real conversation when 80% of everything starts as "those evil money-lingering scrub lord villains". EoL/EoS discussion is one great component of that conversation, but it includes things like what kind of games we want, what kind of treatment we want, what we want the future to look like with AAA companies and indie developers, etc.

for me an important topic is how developers are treated over their "life-cycle" working at software companies. We never really talk about that.

But all this conversation about money and evil corporations, it's all just the same recycled crap from the beginning of time.

Maybe if we stopped flinging death threats and insults at everything with a company logo t-shirt, we could eventually have a real dialog about the important things and the future of gaming.

By all means finish all yall's hissy fits first. Hopefully the Internet will hit a collective moment of silence when the hissy fit cycles simultaneously die out. Then a real conversation might just bloom. Maybe.

[Pork]

Maybe if we stopped flinging death threats and insults at everything with a company logo t-shirt, we could eventually have a real dialog about the important things and the future of gaming.

 

Could you please link me to a single death threat in this entire thread? Im pretty sure that was something that was made up. BSN is a cesspool at times, but death threats? Never seen them here.

[Innarra]

Hello, you may have missed my further note. Although the dollar amount may be 6.40 (for Sony), attempting to facilitate such a thing would be far more costly than that, plus remember we would need to get both MS and Sony on board for such a thing, so there has to be a financial incentive for them to do so. 

 

I believe Billy mentioned we worked with retailers to put on things like half off sales already.

 

The financial incentive being keeping your fanbase happy for future revenue... Nah, just dump the old gen'ers and charge them regular price, they won't mind, right? 

 

The biggest issue you have not addressed is why only spread this news on small venues such as this forum? (There was also a pretty negative conversation between BW employees and customers on Reddit I've heard about, but not had the displeasure of slogging through the comments) It's not on Facebook. And on your website, the article posted 2 weeks ago DOES NOT explain that you're dropping PATCH support. It only details future dlc content to new gen. 

 

That's misleading a large amount of potential customers buying your game now discounted PS3/X360 version of the game (Listed at $39.99 on Gamestop et al) and the assumption that consumer has is they'll be getting a supported game, and a game that works without tons of bugs your dlc created that you never bothered to fix. 

 

Why not post Billy's initial communication on Facebook? You have 1.3 million followers there. Why not update your website to include the information mentioned in Billy's post here, that you're also dropping PATCH support. There's a huge difference. Saying you're dropping dlc support doesn't include bug fixes etc.

 

How can you say you're being transparent, when information like this is left off larger mediums? I'd say you're not only being less than transparent, but misleading future costumers, and incredibly nearsighted in how you've (BW) handled communicating the transition to your current customers.

 

When all you do is refute arguments and not come to the table to accept the criticism given, you're not listening, and you're missing our points.

 

I guess we all digress...

[pwnjabber]

Hello, you may have missed my further note. Although the dollar amount may be 6.40 (for Sony), attempting to facilitate such a thing would be far more costly than that, plus remember we would need to get both MS and Sony on board for such a thing, so there has to be a financial incentive for them to do so.

I believe Billy mentioned we worked with retailers to put on things like half off sales already.

This is good, let's continue to hash out the details. At this point it's a matter of seeing what kind of numbers you can put in front of MS and Sony to get them on board. A point mentioned before is that legacy consoles won't be able to purchase new DLC, but given a cheap upgrade option they would be able to buy DLC into the next gen, without having to pay near full price for the same game with a better skin and less load times.

Edit: Inaara's criticism needs to addressed as well. The current situation will continue to mislead future customers, further adding to the negative PR already created. What will be done about that?

[Yumi]

Could you please link me to a single death threat in this entire thread? Im pretty sure that was something that was made up. BSN is a cesspool at times, but death threats? Never seen them here.

It was a generalization meant to include all social media but I should have clarified that. Look back over Twitter, Facebook and reddit and see if you really can't find any threats of violence.

Edit: sorry that came out arrogant. I haven't seen any here, but I guarantee you threats have been made elsewhere than BSN. I created some confusion in my post by referring to BSN and then generalizing to all social media and all conversations with software companies and I didn't write down the transition properly that I made in my mind

[scene_cachet]

This is good, let's continue to hash out the details. At this point it's a matter of seeing what kind of numbers you can put in front of MS and Sony to get them on board. A point mentioned before is that legacy consoles won't be able to purchase new DLC, but given a cheap upgrade option they would be able to buy DLC into the next gen, without having to pay near full price for the same game with a better skin and less load times.

Edit: Inaara's criticism needs to addressed as well. The current situation will continue to mislead future customers, further adding to the negative PR already created. What will be done about that?

 

I think the financial incentive for Sony and MS would be customers buying their hardware.

[HeroicMass]

I think the financial incentive for Sony and MS would be customers buying their hardware.

 

Neither Sony or Microsoft make much money on their hardware.  If I remember correctly, I think Microsoft made about $30 and Sony about $20 per console when they released.  That margin is likely a little better now, but console sales haven't ever been a large income source for the companies that make them.