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Neither Sony or Microsoft make much money on their hardware. If I remember correctly, I think Microsoft made about $30 and Sony about $20 per console when they released. That margin is likely a little better now, but console sales haven't ever been a large income source for the companies that make them.
They make money off the subscription service/software sales and ecosystem.
PlayStation 4 is literally printing money for Sony Corp at the moment.
They make money off the subscription service/software sales and ecosystem.
PlayStation 4 is literally printing money for Sony Corp at the moment.
Xbox live is required for either system, so that is a zero gain. I don't have a PS4, but I believe Playstation now requires an annual subscription for online play. That would be a gain for them. Either way, with the age of the hardware at 9&10 years the inevitable upgrade is coming for the vast majority of gamers. Given the view point of how small both of the 360 and PS3 community is, I highly doubt Microsoft or Sony would notice a change to their bottom line. The cold reality of big business is that we are the little people to the console manufacturers and it would be very difficult to convince them to make a move for a small return.
This is why I love working for a privately owned, small company.
The financial incentive being keeping your fanbase happy for future revenue... Nah, just dump the old gen'ers and charge them regular price, they won't mind, right?
The biggest issue you have not addressed is why only spread this news on small venues such as this forum? (There was also a pretty negative conversation between BW employees and customers on Reddit I've heard about, but not had the displeasure of slogging through the comments) It's not on Facebook. And on your website, the article posted 2 weeks ago DOES NOT explain that you're dropping PATCH support. It only details future dlc content to new gen.
That's misleading a large amount of potential customers buying your game now discounted PS3/X360 version of the game (Listed at $39.99 on Gamestop et al) and the assumption that consumer has is they'll be getting a supported game, and a game that works without tons of bugs your dlc created that you never bothered to fix.
Why not post Billy's initial communication on Facebook? You have 1.3 million followers there. Why not update your website to include the information mentioned in Billy's post here, that you're also dropping PATCH support. There's a huge difference. Saying you're dropping dlc support doesn't include bug fixes etc.
How can you say you're being transparent, when information like this is left off larger mediums? I'd say you're not only being less than transparent, but misleading future costumers, and incredibly nearsighted in how you've (BW) handled communicating the transition to your current customers.
When all you do is refute arguments and not come to the table to accept the criticism given, you're not listening, and you're missing our points.
I guess we all digress...
Hello Innarra, I unfortunately can only speak to some of your points because some of it is completely outside my area of responsibility, and would feel unqualified to answer.
The Financial Incentive I was speaking of was for Sony and Microsoft, since giving away free copies (or "at cost") does not benefit them, so why would they agree to go along with things. It is kind of a prisoners dilemma, if one of them jumps then it is better for them but if neither of them jumps then there isnt much loss.
Given that I am the most active person on Reddit, there is no conversation that I can remember where I (or another) had that was something I would consider negative. May I ask where you heard this?
A ton of bugs is something that is a very subjective statement, so I can not really comment on that. If your argument is that the DLC/Patches have made the game worse in terms of bugs then it is a good thing that we stopped patching, as to not make things worse. On the other hand your argument is that we have made things better through patches then in essence you have gotten more than you initially paid for. If your expectation was that patching would continue until a point that all the bugs were fixed, then that is an expectation that unfortunately would never be hit.
*snip* If your argument is that the DLC/Patches have made the game worse in terms of bugs then it is a good thing that we stopped patching, as to not make things worse. *snip*
Omg that cracked me up good. I wish you were here all the time. As a sidenote i'm a last gen player and i've accepted my fate and will transition..... eventually. 
It was a generalization meant to include all social media but I should have clarified that. Look back over Twitter, Facebook and reddit and see if you really can't find any threats of violence.
I have. I have a reddit and a twitter account. No death threats or threats of violence.
I have. I have a reddit and a twitter account. No death threats or threats of violence.
Despite there not being any currently that you see, and it might not be currently directed at us such a thing has (and likely will more) exist. We can look at something like Gamergate, or our own Jennifer Hepler to see examples of this, and something like that is not easily forgotten in a short time frame. Like I stated in another post and on another topic, people have memories and associations with certain things. Some developers have the association of if you talk online people will make your lives miserable (including long term).
I have. I have a reddit and a twitter account. No death threats or threats of violence.
Then I am happy to backtrack on my previous statement regarding threats of violence as part of the conversation in relation to this specific conversation.
I still stand by the remainder of the post I made
edit: seems brojo ninja'd me. with more information
Hello Innarra, I unfortunately can only speak to some of your points because some of it is completely outside my area of responsibility, and would feel unqualified to answer.
The Financial Incentive I was speaking of was for Sony and Microsoft, since giving away free copies (or "at cost") does not benefit them, so why would they agree to go along with things. It is kind of a prisoners dilemma, if one of them jumps then it is better for them but if neither of them jumps then there isnt much loss.
Given that I am the most active person on Reddit, there is no conversation that I can remember where I (or another) had that was something I would consider negative. May I ask where you heard this?
A ton of bugs is something that is a very subjective statement, so I can not really comment on that. If your argument is that the DLC/Patches have made the game worse in terms of bugs then it is a good thing that we stopped patching, as to not make things worse. On the other hand your argument is that we have made things better through patches then in essence you have gotten more than you initially paid for. If your expectation was that patching would continue until a point that all the bugs were fixed, then that is an expectation that unfortunately would never be hit.
Hi Bryan, nice to chat with you here. Thanks for taking the time.
Nice attempt at refute here, I'll give you that. Please allow me to continue the criticism and further explain, since you are arguing semantics instead of the actual points I raise.
You argue that it's better that you dropped support altogether, so you're not making it worse. Is that really how you want to run with it? "Sorry we suck at patching our game, so we will just stop". My argument is that you gave us a dlc that never worked well, and that you never bothered to patch it and fix the multitude of issues. Then because it wasn't making BW/EA $, it was dropped. Regardless of the fact that 8 months ago, you decided to release the game for the old gen, and 2 months ago, the Dragonslayer dlc.
Would you say that you can safely bring a Virtuoso into the FC? No, no you can't. Everyone on the PS3 community knows not to bring that class to the FC. You are guaranteed to make the Host's PS3 freeze, resulting in them having to hard reset their system, and then host migrate. That's just one instance where the dlc (Dragonslayer) doesn't work. There are so many ways that connectivity does not work in this MP. I'm happy to list them if you're somehow unaware of the many bugs that plague your game. It's laughable that you need specifics from me to get the accuracy of my argument. Please let me know if that's actually the case.
As far as the reddit post, here it is. Someone had even posted the same link earlier (page 12 if you want to go back and check)
https://www.reddit.c...en_inquisition/
Not sure if that's you, but no matter. That's the point of reference. The conversation held between BW and the public there is childish at best, and the argument BW is making is that pulling support after release happens to a lot of other games, so this shouldn't be a big deal. Great arguing point... It's probably not you Bryan, you seem to be a bit more eloquent. 
Hi Bryan, nice to chat with you here. Thanks for taking the time.
Nice attempt at refute here, I'll give you that. Please allow me to continue the criticism and further explain, since you are arguing semantics instead of the actual points I raise.
You argue that it's better that you dropped support altogether, so you're not making it worse. Is that really how you want to run with it? "Sorry we suck at patching our game, so we will just stop". My argument is that you gave us a dlc that never worked well, and that you never bothered to patch it and fix the multitude of issues. Then because it wasn't making BW/EA $, it was dropped. Regardless of the fact that 8 months ago, you decided to release it for the old gen.
Would you say that you can safely bring a Virtuoso into the FC? No, no you can't. Everyone on the PS3 community knows not to bring that class to the FC. You are guaranteed to make the Host's PS3 freeze, resulting in them having to hard reset their system, and then host migrate. That's just one instance where the dlc (Dragonslayer) doesn't work. There are so many ways that connectivity does not work in this MP. I'm happy to list them if you're somehow unaware of the many bugs that plague your game. It's laughable that you need specifics from me to get the accuracy of my argument. Please let me know if that's actually the case.
As far as the reddit post, here it is. Someone had even posted the same link earlier (like page 12 or something)
https://www.reddit.c...en_inquisition/
Not sure if that's you, but no matter. That's the point of reference. The conversation held between BW and the public there is childish at best, and the argument is that it happens to all games, so this shouldn't be a big deal. Great arguing point... It's probably not you Bryan, you seem to be a bit more eloquent.
Hello,
First off yes that is me on reddit, I am sorry that you see my responses as childish, part of that comes with the medium where it is not tailored for speeches followed with rebuttals (such as the case of the forum). It flows more as a dialog where speed is typically priority over speaking properly. Here on a fourm you are nearly required to view a post that I like (and vice-versa) whereas someone who makes a pun can easily become prioritized over a 3 page document that is written 10minutes later.
My "refute" was to place thinking into one of three camps, since I saw those as a potential options for a thinking pattern regarding patching. So I had no real argument I had poised scenarios and let you decide for me which argument to make. Your next comment is kind of a hybrid of them. The free optional content that was provided has had major bug with it, so if something like that was not possible to fix (see memory) would the more honorable approach be to pull that content completely or to leave it as is knowing it is broken? Do I agree it is ideal? Absolutely not.
Your statement of "I'm happy to list them if you're somehow unaware of the many bugs that plague your game.", I most certainly do not know all (or likely most) bugs that are in the game. This is not a function of my the role that I am currently serving. I do however know the number of bugs that we as QA have filed for the lifetime of DAI and would likely be a shock to most (for how high it is). But this is something I do not believe I can speak about as a concrete number.
I want to know where this argument was that it was dropped because it wasn't making us money came from. There are a good deal of things that we have done that did not make us any money. Patches in general do not make you money, definitely not directly and only partially indirectly.
Hello,
First off yes that is me on reddit, I am sorry that you see my responses as childish, part of that comes with the medium where it is not tailored for speeches followed with rebuttals (such as the case of the forum). It flows more as a dialog where speed is typically priority over speaking properly. Here on a fourm you are nearly required to view a post that I like (and vice-versa) whereas someone who makes a pun can easily become prioritized over a 3 page document that is written 10minutes later.
My "refute" was to place thinking into one of three camps, since I saw those as a potential options for a thinking pattern regarding patching. So I had no real argument I had poised scenarios and let you decide for me which argument to make. Your next comment is kind of a hybrid of them. The free optional content that was provided has had major bug with it, so if something like that was not possible to fix (see memory) would the more honorable approach be to pull that content completely or to leave it as is knowing it is broken? Do I agree it is ideal? Absolutely not.
Your statement of "I'm happy to list them if you're somehow unaware of the many bugs that plague your game.", I most certainly do not know all (or likely most) bugs that are in the game. This is not a function of my the role that I am currently serving. I do however know the number of bugs that we as QA have filed for the lifetime of DAI and would likely be a shock to most (for how high it is). But this is something I do not believe I can speak about as a concrete number.
I want to know where this argument was that it was dropped because it wasn't making us money came from. There are a good deal of things that we have done that did not make us any money. Patches in general do not make you money, definitely not directly and only partially indirectly.
Oh if that's you... Can you leak all the MP details for lolz.
Also, this is going to be the last content DLC for the MP because it's pretty much R.I.P right?
Thanks.
I want to know where this argument was that it was dropped because it wasn't making us money came from. There are a good deal of things that we have done that did not make us any money. Patches in general do not make you money, definitely not directly and only partially indirectly.
If you didn't drop the PS3/X360 due to money cost, then why else would you drop support for the game less than a year after it's release? That makes no sense. Of course it was money. C'mon.
If you didn't drop the PS3/X360 due to money cost, then why else would you drop support for the game less than a year after it's release? That makes no sense. Of course it was money. C'mon.
Once again I am not the one who makes the decisions but if you read my posts in this thread (all of them) I laid out a few technical reasons why I could see things being stopped.
Also I believe if you look at the "industry standard" patches generally stop in under a year. Shadow of Mordor I believe was 6 months.
Think about how complex a big business really is man. Money is always a consideration, but it's not all the be all end all of everything.If you didn't drop the PS3/X360 due to money cost, then why else would you drop support for the game less than a year after it's release? That makes no sense. Of course it was money. C'mon.
I'd like to get back to my original argument, that no BW employee has addressed yet (Billy said "thanks for the suggestion" and that's as far as it went)
Why not post this information to a wider audience, and fix the post on your website to include the information that BW will no longer support patches for old gen?
Is there something you're trying to hide by not communicating that info beyond this forum and Reddit?
What you have now is misleading to the public, your website only includes dlc and says nothing of patch support. You may think you're being transparent by posting here, and that's great. We all really appreciate the level of communication from you. It's really cool we get to talk to developers and producers and real people involved and invested in this game.
The fact remains, that on this forum, there's only a few thousand active members. Why not reach out to everyone with this?
I'd like to get back to my original argument, that no BW employee has addressed yet (Billy said "thanks for the suggestion" and that's as far as it went)
Why not post this information to a wider audience, and fix the post on your website to include the information that BW will no longer support patches for old gen?
Is there something you're trying to hide by not communicating that info beyond this forum and Reddit?
What you have now is misleading to the public, your website only includes dlc and says nothing of patch support. You may think you're being transparent by posting here, and that's great. We all really appreciate the level of communication from you. It's really cool we get to talk to developers and producers and real people involved and invested in this game.
The fact remains, that on this forum, there's only a few thousand active members. Why not reach out to everyone with this?
I'd like to get back to my original argument, that no BW employee has addressed yet (Billy said "thanks for the suggestion" and that's as far as it went)
Why not post this information to a wider audience, and fix the post on your website to include the information that BW will no longer support patches for old gen?
Is there something you're trying to hide by not communicating that info beyond this forum and Reddit?
What you have now is misleading to the public, your website only includes dlc and says nothing of patch support. You may think you're being transparent by posting here, and that's great. We all really appreciate the level of communication from you. It's really cool we get to talk to developers and producers and real people involved and invested in this game.
The fact remains, that on this forum, there's only a few thousand active members. Why not reach out to everyone with this?
Once again I will re-iterate if this is directed at me, it is not my position to do such a thing.
It is also not common practice for game teams to say in any sort of widespread announcement that they are no longer releasing patches. Did you see one for ME3?
I'd like to get back to my original argument, that no BW employee has addressed yet (Billy said "thanks for the suggestion" and that's as far as it went)
Why not post this information to a wider audience, and fix the post on your website to include the information that BW will no longer support patches for old gen?
Is there something you're trying to hide by not communicating that info beyond this forum and Reddit?
What you have now is misleading to the public, your website only includes dlc and says nothing of patch support. You may think you're being transparent by posting here, and that's great. We all really appreciate the level of communication from you. It's really cool we get to talk to developers and producers and real people involved and invested in this game.
The fact remains, that on this forum, there's only a few thousand active members. Why not reach out to everyone with this?
The internet seems aware.
http://bfy.tw/15n2
Hello that seems a bit rude to reply in such a manor, so consider this a verbal warning.
Also the topic at hand is not DLC it is that of Patches.
I could be off base here, but as much as Innarra has beaten this dead horse (of wider media dissemination) I'd venture a guess that s/he won't be satisfied until EA erects a flashing neon sign in the front yard of every X360/PS3 player who ever bought the game, and runs the damned things 24/7/365 for 5 years straight.
Biowerpls promise this, so the tears will stop flowing. Sheesh!
Yes, I'll probably regret this...
Once again I am not the one who makes the decisions but if you read my posts in this thread (all of them) I laid out a few technical reasons why I could see things being stopped.
Also I believe if you look at the "industry standard" patches generally stop in under a year. Shadow of Mordor I believe was 6 months.
It doesn't matter that you're not the one making the decisions. You're still representing Bioware. I'm not personally upset with anyone on your team, you guys have been great... but you all work for the same company that makes decisions together. Saying you're not the one, don't blame me is a cop-out. Nothing personal, but why refute our arguments when you're apparently not the one with the knowledge to back up said arguments?
I have read your posts, and you've been pretty forthcoming with a lot of info, which is giving us a better idea of why support was dropped. Thanks for that! I understand money isn't the be all end all, but saying there were tons of other factors that helped BW come to that decision is a smoke screen for why money really was the deciding factor... it's just asinine. It's always the biggest factor. You don't make games out of the goodness of your heart, or because it's fun, it's your job, your livelihood, and EA is a huge corp with a bottom line to consider. We all can understand that it took more effort than it was worth to BW/EA to continue offering support.
I'm not arguing any of those points. Of course I'm sad that I bought a game on an old gen system I thought would be supported longer, and a game I thought would work better. This game, mainly the MP was honestly the most fun I've had in a long time (90% of that being the community of players here on PS3, who really are an amazing bunch of folks), but also the buggiest. We spent countless hours dealing with connectivity issues, key bugs, commander death bugs, etc, and we stuck it out and kept up the loyal fanbase you enjoy. I understand it wasn't worth it for you guys to fix all the issues that plagued the gameplay. Did you fix some? Sure you did, and thanks. The game was mostly playable to a fault.
What I am arguing, is that by not continuing support for a game you're trying to sell more copies of, and not communicating that dropped support to a wider audience is misleading. Your team posts to Facebook every day. Why not say something there about this? Why not fix your website to include all the information (i.e. Patch support). Honestly, all you'd need to change is one word there. Stating that "All future dlc will be available on PC, PS4 and XboxOne" does not communicate that you're dropping patch support. There's a big difference there. That was stated here: http://www.dragonage...s/save-importer
Sorry guys, but I'd like to know why BW champions themselves as a transparent company, when it's clear they're leaving a vast majority in the dark about their decisions.
Oh... this poor, dead horsey just keeps taking hits.
Hello that seems a bit rude to reply in such a manor, so consider this a verbal warning.
Also the topic at hand is not DLC it is that of Patches.
Once again I will re-iterate if this is directed at me, it is not my position to do such a thing.
It is also not common practice for game teams to say in any sort of widespread announcement that they are no longer releasing patches. Did you see one for ME3?
Yeah, only this isn't cutting patches. This is spitting in the face of a chunk of the player base while the rest keep moving. That's A LOT different.
It doesn't matter that you're not the one making the decisions. You're still representing Bioware. I'm not personally upset with anyone on your team, you guys have been great... but you all work for the same company that makes decisions together. Saying you're not the one, don't blame me is a cop-out. Nothing personal, but why refute our arguments when you're apparently not the one with the knowledge to back up said arguments?
I have read your posts, and you've been pretty forthcoming with a lot of info, which is giving us a better idea of why support was dropped. Thanks for that! I understand money isn't the be all end all, but saying there were tons of other factors that helped BW come to that decision is a smoke screen for why money really was the deciding factor... it's just asinine. It's always the biggest factor. You don't make games out of the goodness of your heart, or because it's fun, it's your job, your livelihood, and EA is a huge corp with a bottom line to consider. We all can understand that it took more effort than it was worth to BW/EA to continue offering support.
I'm not arguing any of those points. Of course I'm sad that I bought a game on an old gen system I thought would be supported longer, and a game I thought would work better. This game, mainly the MP was honestly the most fun I've had in a long time (90% of that being the community of players here on PS3, who really are an amazing bunch of folks), but also the buggiest. We spent countless hours dealing with connectivity issues, key bugs, commander death bugs, etc, and we stuck it out and kept up the loyal fanbase you enjoy. I understand it wasn't worth it for you guys to fix all the issues that plagued the gameplay. Did you fix some? Sure you did, and thanks. The game was mostly playable to a fault.
What I am arguing, is that by not continuing support for a game you're trying to sell more copies of, and not communicating that dropped support to a wider audience is misleading. Your team posts to Facebook every day. Why not say something there about this? Why not fix your website to include all the information (i.e. Patch support). Honestly, all you'd need to change is one word there. Stating that "All future dlc will be available on PC, PS4 and XboxOne" does not communicate that you're dropping patch support. There's a big difference there. That was stated here: http://www.dragonage...s/save-importer
Sorry guys, but I'd like to know why BW champions themselves as a transparent company, when it's clear they're leaving a vast majority in the dark about their decisions.
Oh... this poor, dead horsey just keeps taking hits.
I am sorry I do not agree with the notion that just because I work for the company and am a representative that I have to (or should) speak on everything. When I say I can't answer your question because it is not my position to say I am not trying to deceive you. You can also say we all make decisions together but ultimately that is not true, we do not have a flat corporate structure where everyone voice is the same.
No It is not a smoke screen, money is a factor yes, but it is no where near as large as you make it out to be when you have statements that you said of "Then because it wasn't making BW/EA $, it was dropped. " your argument becomes singular and with an agenda. My statements at another point in this thread stated that we would be best served continuing to make DLC for last-gen in order to increase our profits. If we were only interested in cutting off things that make us the least amount of money last-gen would not be where we would start.
Given that your "dead horse" is regarding why we do not post on facebook and I have repeatidly respond with I can not answer that question this is the last time I am going to reply to that question or anything that is similar to it.
I could be off base here, but as much as Innarra has beaten this dead horse (of wider media dissemination) I'd venture a guess that s/he won't be satisfied until EA erects a flashing neon sign in the front yard of every X360/PS3 player who ever bought the game, and runs the damned things 24/7/365 for 5 years straight.
Biowerpls promise this, so the tears will stop flowing. Sheesh!
Yes, I'll probably regret this...
Why do you feel the need to white-knight for Bioware every time someone is critical of them? You might not agree with how Innarra is expressing him/herself but there is no need to mock them for simply asking to be treated the same way as players on PC and next gen
Noted. Didn't mean to offend, sorry if I did. Meant for a bit of levity but in hindsight this obviously isn't the place.
Were all very disappointed in you smh
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