34 réponses à ce sujet

[cap and gown]

So, I'm watching a blind playthrough of ME3 and the player is currently on Surkesh. The squadmates are screaming "we must hurry, Shepard," and the player obliges by running right on by log entries, credit pick-ups, weapon mods, etc. He is under the impression that there is some time limit when there is not. The NPCs are literally lying about game mechanics, permanently gimping the player from improving his weapons and armor, while also detracting from the story by having him miss log entries that might help flesh out the story.

 

I hope to never hear an NPC say "we must hurry" again unless there really is some time limit. And unless you are putting in drops during such moments for the challenge of seeing if the player can get them before the timer expires, then do not put drops into time sensitive levels.

[BabyPuncher]

Tons of video games do this to give the player an illusion of haste.

 

Video games in general are full of illusions.

[wolfsite]

This had been in games for ages as a method to build tension.  Are we as a gaming community becoming so sensitive that even tension is offensive?

 

Plus the NPC is not lying, they are reacting to an event in a universe that, to them, is real.  If aliens came to earth right now and attacked would you:

 

A: Run like hell to find shelter and a method to counter attack

 

B: Stop and loot all the dead bodies figuring you have all the time in the world and all the people telling you to move it are just lying.

[Larry-3]

I do not remember everything thing about the mission. But what I can recall is that you have to hurry an clear the room of hostiles to keep Mordin safe. Was he rushing to the elevator checkpoint?

[N7Jamaican]

Unless there is a timer shown on the screen, I am taking my time.  First playthroughs for me, I like to explore.  Even during a mission.  After I clear an area of enemies, I explore it for hidden goodies, easter eggs, etc..

 

Unless there is a timed event, then I will not rush through the level.  Or it is my millionth playthrough.

[Ryzaki]

^Unless I see a timer I'm taking my sweet time.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Tons of video games do this to give the player an illusion of haste.

And it's terrible every time.

[Elhanan]

And it's terrible every time.

Perhaps, but it also makes certain missions stand out where there this exists (eg; Geth Dreadnaught), yet one must use care to look for mines; same on Rannoch. This mix creates the sense of urgency, but also allows the Player know that care must be used, or there will be consequences.

[Sartoz]

I do not remember everything thing about the mission. But what I can recall is that you have to hurry an clear the room of hostiles to keep Mordin safe. Was he rushing to the elevator checkpoint?

 

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It's all contrived and all not contrived.

 

Basically, you have all the time in the world until a battle starts against Cerberus forces. You are located four levels (I think) down and must ensure that the elevator reaches the surface. Failure to eliminate the enemy forces within a specific time will allow Cerberus to sabotage the elevator. At this point you lose. Between levels (if you won), you can idle as long as you want.

 

In other words, the NPC was truthful, sort of.

[RoboticWater]

I'd say that the gameplay designers did their job perfectly. Most of the time, I'd rather think I'm crunched for time than actually be crunched for time; it's simulated tension without any real drawbacks.

 

I remember a mission in Republic Commando that was timed. It gave you about 4 minutes (IIRC) to bust into a Droid central command room, hack some console, and get out. Sounds simple enough but hallway after hallway of SBDs and Droidikas, I never had enough time to hack the console and run. After 3 failed attempts I nearly left the game entirely (I think I put it down for a week though).

 

Sometimes games need tension and honestly, I'd rather take the illusion.

[agonis]

Well... This complaint has some creativity, at least. Don´t remember reading this before.

[AlanC9]

So, I'm watching a blind playthrough of ME3 and the player is currently on Surkesh. The squadmates are screaming "we must hurry, Shepard," and the player obliges by running right on by log entries, credit pick-ups, weapon mods, etc. He is under the impression that there is some time limit when there is not. The NPCs are literally lying about game mechanics, permanently gimping the player from improving his weapons and armor, while also detracting from the story by having him miss log entries that might help flesh out the story.

I hope to never hear an NPC say "we must hurry" again unless there really is some time limit. And unless you are putting in drops during such moments for the challenge of seeing if the player can get them before the timer expires, then do not put drops into time sensitive levels.

You're right. RPGs need real time limits.

Having said that, I didn't realize there were players inexperienced enough or dumb enough to fall for that. Are you sure the guy in the vid wasn't just RPing?

[Beerfish]

Zevran told me he was useful for lock picking but after I let him live he had no points in it!!!

[Vigilance97]

The real problem isn't npcs telling you to hurry, it's the loot that encourages you not to. There simply shouldn't be any if it doesn't make sense for the protagonist to explore the area right now. You shouldn't have your immersion ruined because you don't want to miss any loot and you shouldn't be punished for staying in character.

 

Edit:

 

 

So, I'm watching a blind playthrough of ME3 and the player is currently on Surkesh. The squadmates are screaming "we must hurry, Shepard," and the player obliges by running right on by log entries, credit pick-ups, weapon mods, etc. He is under the impression that there is some time limit when there is not. The NPCs are literally lying about game mechanics, permanently gimping the player from improving his weapons and armor, while also detracting from the story by having him miss log entries that might help flesh out the story.

 

I hope to never hear an NPC say "we must hurry" again unless there really is some time limit. And unless you are putting in drops during such moments for the challenge of seeing if the player can get them before the timer expires, then do not put drops into time sensitive levels.

For some reason I completely missed that last sentence. So yeah, this.

[Larry-3]

I'd say that the gameplay designers did their job perfectly. Most of the time, I'd rather think I'm crunched for time than actually be crunched for time; it's simulated tension without any real drawbacks.

I remember a mission in Republic Commando that was timed. It gave you about 4 minutes (IIRC) to bust into a Droid central command room, hack some console, and get out. Sounds simple enough but hallway after hallway of SBDs and Droidikas, I never had enough time to hack the console and run. After 3 failed attempts I nearly left the game entirely (I think I put it down for a week though).

Sometimes games need tension and honestly, I'd rather take the illusion.

That mission had me on the edge of my seat the whole time. Now I am tempted to load up Republic Commando right now... excuse me.

[AlanC9]

Plus the NPC is not lying, they are reacting to an event in a universe that, to them, is real. 

Well, technically, yeah -- the NPCs are telling the truth, but they don't know that Cerberus has chivalrously decided to wait until Shepard reaches each level to attack the level.

But don't most RPGs do this with the main plot?

[Ajensis]

This had been in games for ages as a method to build tension.  Are we as a gaming community becoming so sensitive that even tension is offensive?

 

Agreed wholeheartedly. If anything is wrong with that section, it's the placing of audio logs where you can only listen to them after the alarm sounds, which makes it awkward and immersion-breaking when you do. I'm actually rather happy that this person that played it for the first time hurried out instead of lingering around, even if he did miss some pick-ups and minor story content; it shows he was likely engaged in the story.

[Sidney]

Frankly the whole game is a usually big violation of this most of the time: holy crap Shep Saren is gonna do something awful, find him....but first find some medals and rocks and drug dealers. OMFG the Darkspawn are overrunning Ferelden...find some refugees and tell some people they are fired.

On the individual levels it is XP based on murder and trash looting that kills any real sense of urgency because we all know going down an obvious side corridor might be rewarding if we can shoot 3 non-entity grunts and steal 1000 credits.

[Pasquale1234]

This had been in games for ages as a method to build tension.  Are we as a gaming community becoming so sensitive that even tension is offensive?

Offensive? Hardly. Overused? Absolutely.

Ever heard of the boy who cried wolf? When those techniques are used so casually, players become desensitized to them.
 

Plus the NPC is not lying, they are reacting to an event in a universe that, to them, is real.  If aliens came to earth right now and attacked would you:
 
A: Run like hell to find shelter and a method to counter attack
 
B: Stop and loot all the dead bodies figuring you have all the time in the world and all the people telling you to move it are just lying.

That creates a dissonance between the character and the player.

The character is supposed to feel the urgency promoted by the writers and rush to the mission objectives.

The player sees that there are objects to look at, acquire, etc. and wants to take time to explore.

The net result can be immersion-breaking.

[daveliam]

But don't most RPGs do this with the main plot?

 

Exactly.  Isn't all of ME3 like this?  "The Reapers are imminent!  We're losing the war!  We must hurry!.........But I think it's time for shore leave for you and your team......"

[KaiserShep]

There are parts of the game where you don't think there's a time limit, but there is. On Menae, Victus can die if you dilly dally too long, and the Crucible is destroyed by the reapers if you stand there and wait on the platform. At least Sur'Kesh has an actual timer in places based on the shield integrity of the pod, which plummets kind of quickly on insanity. Then there's the elevator in the geth dreadnought. I let Shepard fall once just to see what it looked like.

Anyway, time crunches are a damned if you do and dammed if you don't affair. People will complain that they don't want the game rushing them, then others will complain if the game allows you to play at your own pace.

[Sartoz]

I'd say that the gameplay designers did their job perfectly. Most of the time, I'd rather think I'm crunched for time than actually be crunched for time; it's simulated tension without any real drawbacks.

 

I remember a mission in Republic Commando that was timed. It gave you about 4 minutes (IIRC) to bust into a Droid central command room, hack some console, and get out. Sounds simple enough but hallway after hallway of SBDs and Droidikas, I never had enough time to hack the console and run. After 3 failed attempts I nearly left the game entirely (I think I put it down for a week though).

 

Sometimes games need tension and honestly, I'd rather take the illusion.

 

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Me too, unless the level design is unbalanced.

 

I give up after five tries, then put the game down for a couple of days. Obviously I'm doing something wrong, usually because the illusionist pressure forces me to "button smash" instead of thinking my way through. I guess my subconscious works out a solution which bubbles up near the surface when I play the "problem" area again.

 

In a way, the level design was well done. Or at least achieved the desired purpose.

[Elhanan]

Exactly.  Isn't all of ME3 like this?  "The Reapers are imminent!  We're losing the war!  We must hurry!.........But I think it's time for shore leave for you and your team......"

But that DLC is so worth it! "So after all this is over, we are gonna talk about this 'Bait' thing!"

[Sartoz]

 Snip

Anyway, time crunches are a damned if you do and dammed if you don't affair. People will complain that they don't want the game rushing them, then others will complain if the game allows you to play at your own pace.

 

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Which begs the question " What's the criteria on time crunches when designing a level/mission?".  Weapons, armour, skill levels, squad mix, all of the above? Don't forget level testing. Who and with what skills and with what gear is the level tested with?

 

Level testing with pros, or experienced users (such as the game developers) will achieve one result. Newbies testing the same level will probably fall flat on their face. I'd be interested in knowing the creteria for accepting level designs with time crunches.

 

Bottom line, I have a distate for such levels but also, I have no alternative answer to level design whose funtcion is to create "pressure" in a critical mission. Though, background music helps.

[MrFob]

I usually hate timers but in fact, ME had one mission where ti wasn't too bad. It's the N7 mission during ME2 where the Batarians captured that missile facility. You had only a couple of minutes to fight through them and disarm the missile. It was plenty of time but just the fact that there was a timer kept you going forward. After achieving all mission objectives and clearing the base, you could still run around as long as you wanted to find all the loot. That's how a timed mission should work IMO, the timer should not really break your back but just keep you going forward.

 

I also don't mind if NPCs give little comments to spur you on, as long they give it ONCE! If I ever have to hear stuff like "Hit the keystone, Shepard" again, I'm gonne kick whoever is saying it in the quad.