73 réponses à ce sujet

[Ariella]

Big issues are just a lot of little issues put together. The economy is screwed, but it's all part of the giant snarl that's connected with a lot of other things. Quest rewards, loot drops, item value, crafting..
 
Honestly, it just feels like someone didn't want to give a lot of thought to it. A lot of the mess is just yanked wholeheartedly out of whatever random MMO someone was feeling at the time, and it wound up as awkward as it sounds.

As I said earlier Frostbyte isn't designed with an rpg in mind, but as I understand it the use of frostbyte was mandated from on high. They've had to develop things on their own, and they've had to prioritize.

Yes, things about the in game economy are screwy, but it has nothing to do with the lack of denominations of coin and how that breaks lore. I agree they need better balance though I also understand why crafted items go for so little, in order to avoid crafting only to sell for money like in say Skyrim. I suppose they could give the merchants set gold but I've always found that route annoying.

Short: this is a new engine that they didn't design specifically for this game, and they're feeling their way into it. There are going to be growing pains, but screaming about it and calling the game a "turd" isn't exactly the way to get attention paid to the real problems. The lack of various currency (which does still exist in lore if one bothers to listen to the Wicked Grace game...) as a mechanic should be low on the list.

Better adjustments of war table rewards so they scale (The Avenger sword out of the make peace quest is underpowered if one finishes Wicked Eyes second for example) Another is the equipment on Lord Seeker Lucius. Hell, he's level seven when the IQ is at least level ten when Promise of Fiery Destruction becomes available.

So yes, scaling needs work, quest rewards need work, but complaining about the fact there are no silver or copper coins? That just insane when there are real issues that need to be dealt with.

[Ashaantha]

My Inquisitor certainly is a financial moron (because of me). Buying very expensive schematics she'll never even use, being lazy and buying materials she's missing instead of taking 10 minutes to go hunting.

 

I am currently preferring the one coin currency approach. Doesn't mean it's good or bad, just for DAI I like it.

[ashwind]

Because the Inquisitor is basically Orlesian and in Orlais, they only trade in gold coins.

 

*In Orlesian Accent*   : Silver and copper are so... Ferelden and Free Marches. 

[House Lannister]

The new system didn't actually bother me.

 

I just head cannoned it that: 

 

100 gold = 1 silver

10,000 gold = 1 Sovereign

 

I also said that it was hard to obtain money because of the financial situation.

 

Although thinking back on it, I would prefer the old system back. 

[Saphiron123]

As I said earlier Frostbyte isn't designed with an rpg in mind, but as I understand it the use of frostbyte was mandated from on high. They've had to develop things on their own, and they've had to prioritize.

Yes, things about the in game economy are screwy, but it has nothing to do with the lack of denominations of coin and how that breaks lore. I agree they need better balance though I also understand why crafted items go for so little, in order to avoid crafting only to sell for money like in say Skyrim. I suppose they could give the merchants set gold but I've always found that route annoying.

Short: this is a new engine that they didn't design specifically for this game, and they're feeling their way into it. There are going to be growing pains, but screaming about it and calling the game a "turd" isn't exactly the way to get attention paid to the real problems. The lack of various currency (which does still exist in lore if one bothers to listen to the Wicked Grace game...) as a mechanic should be low on the list.

Better adjustments of war table rewards so they scale (The Avenger sword out of the make peace quest is underpowered if one finishes Wicked Eyes second for example) Another is the equipment on Lord Seeker Lucius. Hell, he's level seven when the IQ is at least level ten when Promise of Fiery Destruction becomes available.

So yes, scaling needs work, quest rewards need work, but complaining about the fact there are no silver or copper coins? That just insane when there are real issues that need to be dealt with.

I don't buy it. The engine isn't responsible for coin denominations, and it's 2015, they can manage. It's not just about the coins, it's about the many, many,many times they took something established in what's supposed to be a series and tossed it out the window for no reason. The coins are just one silly example to make fun of. And they deserve to be made fun of, because the devs either don't play the past games, or they don't care.

People say engine limitations, but come on, we have the best engines to work with in videogame history, and half the changes they made were outdone by mechanics 10 years ago. Tactics for instance.

It was lazy programming, and nothing else. And it makes no sense, because the people would literally starve because they couldn't afford bread. It's damned silly, and considering bioware is a company that prides itself on building continuous worlds and past decisions and this giant ongoing narrative, it's pretty sloppy too, and you shouldn't apologize for it, because this and suddenly removing healing magic and altering the qun and all that is making dragon age less and less like the world we started with.

The new bioware does not give a crap about origins or the world as we knew it. This is just one of fifty examples.

[FKA_Servo]

 suddenly removing healing magic and altering the qun

 

Rage on, but you should really stop doubling down on the stuff that's so easily debunked.

[Saphiron123]

Rage on, but you should really stop doubling down on the stuff that's so easily debunked.

Sweet, I'm going to go make a spirit healer.

[FKA_Servo]

Sweet, I'm going to go make a spirit healer.

 

You can't, because they're exceedingly uncommon, and for the first time, the setting reflects that. Normal healing magic, as applied by normal mages, doesn't work quickly enough to be usable in the heat of battle.

[Saphiron123]

You can't, because they're exceedingly uncommon, and for the first time, the setting reflects that. Normal healing magic, as applied by normal mages, doesn't work quickly enough to be usable in the heat of battle.

That makes no sense though. My mages could do it, enemy mages could do it, I've seen it done in two games in a row... it's a fine argument if the warden's party was the only party that could do it, if it was like a wynne only skill or only a few mages in the game could use it, but heal is one of the most basic spells in the skill tree and plenty of npcs can use it too like the mercenaries in denerim, and certain npcs that you get control of in the origins stories etc.

Spirit healers might be rare, but basic healing magic? Not without a dramatic rewrite of history.

And that's the problem with inquisition, they don't care about the little details.

[FKA_Servo]

That makes no sense though. My mages could do it, enemy mages could do it, I've seen it done in two games in a row... it's a fine argument if the warden's party was the only party that could do it, if it was like a wynne only skill or only a few mages in the game could use it, but heal is one of the most basic spells in the skill tree and plenty of npcs can use it too like the mercenaries in denerim, and certain npcs that you get control of in the origins stories etc.

Spirit healers might be rare, but basic healing magic? Not without a dramatic rewrite of history.

And that's the problem with inquisition, they don't care about the little details.

 

Basic healing magic is not rare, and it is present in universe. It's alluded to by Mother Giselle and other NPCs on multiple occasions.

 

But according to the lore, including past games and the books, all of which pre-date DAI, it requires a tremendous amount of concentration, lots of lyrium, and time. It can easily blow up in the practitioner's face. Spirit healers are less constrained by these limitations as they're in contact with benevolent fade spirits, but they are rare.

 

The fact that healing was so ubiquitous in the first couple of games has nothing to do with the lore and everything to do with game design. It was lore conceding ground to mechanics. Combat encounters were balanced around having a healer. While Wynne should have been the only spirit healer, the way skills and specializations worked meant that every mage, including Morrigan (oh sweet irony) and the Warden, had to be able to skill into it as well.

 

DA2 was a little bit better about this, as their rarity was seemingly acknowledged since only Anders and Hawke could potentially become spirit healers as opposed to every damn one. But - the gameplay was still balanced around having a healer and players who were unable to use him for whatever reason (there are several legitimate reasons why they might not) might find themselves penalized for playing without a capable healer.

 

The way these things were redesigned DAI A) brought the mechanics of healing magic in line with the lore behind healing magic and B ) ensured players weren't punished for playing with a group of companions they enjoy.

 

You obviously don't like it, which is fine. But you should attack from that angle, because you're incorrect on the lore and the facts.

[Linkenski]

Story and gameplay segregation. Just take it at face value, the in-game currency isn't based in lore like it was in previous games.

It should be though. Ugh, it's like the war assets in ME3 or power for that matter. It has no meaning, it's just an arbitrary point system that Bioware didn't really define clearly in what 1 unit meant. What is 1 power? Is it a unit of troops? Is it the budget of the inquisiton? They could've found a way to make it consistent and explain what 1 power meant, and that's not a nit pick to have for such a fundamental feature.

[Paul E Dangerously]

 

The way these things were redesigned DAI A) brought the mechanics of healing magic in line with the lore behind healing magic and B ) ensured players weren't punished for playing with a group of companions they enjoy.

 

Like hell it does. DAI even introduces new mechanics to ensure that you HAVE to have the "proper" balance of party members. If you want to get past a wall, you need a Warrior to break it down. Only mages can get past barriers. Etc, etc.

[FKA_Servo]

Like hell it does. DAI even introduces new mechanics to ensure that you HAVE to have the "proper" balance of party members. If you want to get past a wall, you need a Warrior to break it down. Only mages can get past barriers. Etc, etc.

 

Conceded. I forgot about the barriers and the walls. Although now that I think of it, I don't think any of those are required for progression nor are they in places you couldn't revisit with the proper composition after going through the first time. But that's also not what Saphiron was obsessing over.

 

If I I'm a rogue Hawke who kicked out Anders, I'm stuck with Merrill for the end game, whose healing skill is limited. That's the sort of thing that's avoided in DAI.

Modifié par TommyServo, 12 août 2015 - 03:51 .

[Saphiron123]

I'm looking for lore in origins to support this, but I haven't found it yet... we'll see, but the fact is it was established as a much more common occurrence then it is now. And I'm more then a little suspicious that healing magic suddenly vanishes, but wait, I can buy a chest of healing potions for $2.99 in multiplayer.

I don't like a lot of their decisions, some directly go against what's been said and done in past games, and others like losing the tactics system and making all leveling automatic in terms of stats, just make the game feel like a cheap copy of a better original.

[andy6915]

Like hell it does. DAI even introduces new mechanics to ensure that you HAVE to have the "proper" balance of party members. If you want to get past a wall, you need a Warrior to break it down. Only mages can get past barriers. Etc, etc.

 

Nope. The explosive arrow (whatever it's called) that archers can do breaks them too, as I found out in the oasis when I made Sera fire at one. Glitchy though, the icon to destroy the wall will remain even after the wall is destroyed... And a warrior can still be ordered to break it, they go up to it and kick at nothing while a wall breaking sound effect plays. But it's fully broken, you can pass through the destroyed wall even with the "break" message still floating there on nothing.

 

And warriors can break down locked doors with mighty blow, but only the ones that don't require the "deft hands, fine tools" perk to open.

 

And barriers don't need mages. I broke one by making every party member focus fire on the barrier, and it took about a full minute to bring it down. But they DID bring it down, a full warrior and rogue party.

 

 

So it's not as rigid as you think.

[In Exile]

Like hell it does. DAI even introduces new mechanics to ensure that you HAVE to have the "proper" balance of party members. If you want to get past a wall, you need a Warrior to break it down. Only mages can get past barriers. Etc, etc.

 

That's to actually create reactive environments. It's a good feature. Complaining about this is like complaining about lockpicking.

[BabyPuncher]

That's fine, since lockpicking is a lousy 'feature' in the game as well.

[SwobyJ]

I love lockpicking.

 

I don't like this DAI cheap-ass implementation of it. Which Street mentions.

[Koneko Koji]

I miss being able to level up my stats to pick locks, sneak thief people and intimidate them into doing my will.

Mind you, I also miss being able to craft and hold more than a rough dozen or so potions at a time, and have companions that didn't chug them like an addict and their coffee...

 

The currency situation is pretty messed up, and I really dislike having "gold" instead of the three tiered approach of the past. To be honest, I dislike the whole dumbing down of elements across the board.

[Saphiron123]

Big issues are just a lot of little issues put together. The economy is screwed, but it's all part of the giant snarl that's connected with a lot of other things. Quest rewards, loot drops, item value, crafting..

Honestly, it just feels like someone didn't want to give a lot of thought to it. A lot of the mess is just yanked wholeheartedly out of whatever random MMO someone was feeling at the time, and it wound up as awkward as it sounds.

This. Thank you. Nobody gave a crap. That's the problem. All the little details, all the nostalgia, I mean I don't give a crap about elfroot but I want a series to feel nostalgic. A return to a world I totally loved, with familiar parts that make you remember and smile about some of the best games ever released.

And the devs behind DAI didn't care. There's a thousand examples from redcliff to the economy, to dropping tactics and attribute points, to healing magic suddenly being unfit for battle except in the hands of the most power mages in the world.

I'm playing the witcher, and there's so many nods to past games and areas that are so similar to what you remember, and it's awesome. DAI didn't even try to evoke those feelings with the world.

Playing though, I honestly felt like the devs couldn't care less about the world of origins. And sadly for them, origins was a better game, that dai would have benefited from making us nostalgic for.

Redcliff is the worst example. They took another town with zero in common and gave it a name.

Yeah money is nitpicky, and it wouldn't have mattered if DAI felt like it took place in the same world as origins, but for the most part, it did in name only. Or that's how it felt anyway.

[Saphiron123]

You realize people can be unhappy about and acknowledge more than one problem at once, regardless of priority, right? What you're saying reminds me of those ignorant people who claim others don't have the right to be sad about small things because there are starving children in Africa.

Not once in the thread did I see anyone say, "Bioware, this is the biggest problem in the whole game! Fix this before anything else!" So, I have no idea why you're acting as if people said that. Besides, no one's expecting them to remake this whole game, but rather we'd prefer all the issues to be acknowledged and that effort will be put into avoiding having these issues in the next installment.

The fiddling with a new engine excuse only goes so far. In more competent hands, I'd wager the game could have turned out so much better--not perfect, but better. A moot argument, though, I digress. Prototypes should not be released as full, finished products. You'd think that'd have been learned from DA2 which I personally enjoyed, but it was still far from perfect. Perfection being impossible to achieve doesn't ever excuse a lack of earnest effort.

You understand exactly where I'm coming from. I made this post because the finances struck me as stupid, there are far larger issues, but the devs not giving a crap seems to be the core of all of it.

DAI should have been like coming home to an amazing world we all loved, it should have been the Ferelden we remember and Orlais should have been bigger then life. There should have been tactics and the best systems from past games should have been preserved rather then thrown away.

And I don't buy the engine crap, people have made that excuse for every bad game in a series for the past 15 years. Other games are doing this type of experience better, so if it is the engine then a) the game was rushed and needed far for dev time, or b it's a terrible engine that can't hold a candle to the one in games like the witcher 3, which looks similar, plays similar, but offered a real open world story that felt more like origins and more personal then anything in DAI.

[FKA_Servo]

I'm looking for lore in origins to support this, but I haven't found it yet... we'll see, but the fact is it was established as a much more common occurrence then it is now. And I'm more then a little suspicious that healing magic suddenly vanishes, but wait, I can buy a chest of healing potions for $2.99 in multiplayer.

I don't like a lot of their decisions, some directly go against what's been said and done in past games, and others like losing the tactics system and making all leveling automatic in terms of stats, just make the game feel like a cheap copy of a better original.

 

Bolded is what it all comes down to.

 

Of course, Origins is not the be-all-end-all authority on Dragon Age lore. Given the scope of the game versus the depth of the setting, there's no way it possibly could have been. It's been expanded upon in other games and other secondary material (books, comics), all of which is valid. Not the storyline canon, obviously (David Gaider has rather different ideas than I do about Alistair's fate, for example), but the history, background details, and rules for the setting.

 

Apart from a couple of situational character-related retcons, I still can't think of anything that's actually been contradicted by subsequent games.

[Saphiron123]

Bolded is what it all comes down to.

 

Of course, Origins is not the be-all-end-all authority on Dragon Age lore. Given the scope of the game versus the depth of the setting, there's no way it possibly could have been. It's been expanded upon in other games and other secondary material (books, comics), all of which is valid. Not the storyline canon, obviously (David Gaider has rather different ideas than I do about Alistair's fate, for example), but the history, background details, and rules for the setting.

 

Apart from a couple of situational character-related retcons, I still can't think of anything that's actually been contradicted by subsequent games.

Your'e right, I don't like a lot of their decisions. I don't like that they dropped tactics, or that cinematic cameras have been removed in favor of wooden characters without emotion, or that side quests are no longer narratives but fetch quests. i don't like how empty the world is or the fact there's no big cities in the game. I don't like the fact they want me to pay real money for healing and remove all healing magic from the game (and I'm sorry, but even if it's alluded to here and there, it's one of MANY skillsets they ripped out for no good reason). I don't like the tone of the game and the fact they don't bother showing anything slightly offensive on screen, such as a war or it's fallout, in a game about two different wars. I didn't love that redcliff was unrecognizable in every possible way.

I think it was a pretty poor attempt at a dragon age game that ignored 95% of the mechanics and lore used in the past. 

Honestly though, the biggest problem with the lore and story, is not only did they seem not to respect the past games, there wasn't much of either in this one. Hell, even the descent avoids expanding on past lore, adds a bunch of new stuff, and is so aware of how little it gave a crap about explaining any of it that my own inquisitor quipped about how he was left with more questions then answers. He actually says that, and that's the end. Titans? Bam, throw them in, who cares about the specifics, scaled ones? You won't see them, they won't explain them, but hey, toss them in.

If you ignored the codex entries, DAI would be one of the most lore shallow RPGs I ever played. This dragon age, and that's a huge problem for me.