514 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

I'm having a difficult time wrapping my mind around this. If you bought a game on a previous generation console, you got what you paid for--that game. Did you enter into some sort of contract with BioWare stating that they would have to continue offering you DLC on that console for said game in perpetuity? I don't even understand why anybody would assume that.

 

No, but the assumption, which is quite reasonable, and which Bioware did absolutely nothing to discourage, was that the game would be supported equally on all five platforms.  WHen two of those platforms gets unceremoniously dropped by the wayside, such behavior will raise eyebrows.

 

 

 

If, for whatever reason, you can no longer play the game for which you paid, then I'd be right there with you.

I guess it's difficult for me to be too sympathetic, because as a PC gamer, I'm often upgrading my machine in order to be able to handle new games, or even engine upgrades to games I'm already playing. If you want to stay on the front line of gaming, then you need to keep your hardware up to spec.

I dunno...I just don't see the problem.

I'm a PC gamer, and I'm totally sympathetic to the situation.  This isn't a matter of "staying on the front line" it's being told that the game you buy at full price on a certain platform  will be supported on that platform during the game's entire cycle.  And then, less than a year later being told you're SOL.

[BronzTrooper]

Oh joy, this topic again...

 

Honestly, I think that the issue is that we (last-gen players) weren't given a heads-up about the possiblity of a support drop for DLCs on last-gen consoles.  Well, that and how they handled the announcement of the support drop.  People on last-gen bought DA:I expecting to have access to any DLCs that would be released for DA:I only to have DLC support dropped in a way that made it seem like EA/BW didn't really care about it one way or the other.  The fact that those same people now have to buy a new console, as well as buy a second copy of DA:I in order to play the future DLCs due to having no prior knowledge of the possibility of a support drop is very unethical.  The least that EA could do is to attempt to provide discounts for next-gen DA:I to owners of the last-gen version to make up for this.

 

I personally don't really mind the support drop (on PS3).  My issue is that we didn't get a heads-up.  Even with the support drop, the odds of me getting a PS4 any time soon are remote due to a few reasons, a big one being money.  As of right now, there aren't many games available on PS4 that I'm interested in getting.  To me, it doesn't make sense to shell out several hundred bucks to get a PS4 just to play 1-2 games, especially since I have over 2 dozen games on my PS3 and a few more on my laptop.  And even if I get a PS4, I'll likely still play games on my PS3 as well.  It's simply not cost-effective, imo.

 

As for the people who say that last-gen gamers should just upgrade already, remember that despite us all being gamers on here, our backgrounds and lives vary wildly.  Just because you may be able to afford buying a next-gen console and a few games to go with it doesn't mean that everyone does.  Have some consideration for other people's potential financial situations.

 

Anyway, I've tossed in my 2-cents.  Now I shall bow out of this thread.

[Eelectrica]

You don't have to accept it and you can react however you want. But there's no ethical dilemma.

 

Of course there is. People have already stated had they known this was going to happen before release they would have changed their purchasing decisions. That right there makes it an ethical dilemma. Customers have a right to think they're going to be treated fairly across the board, not one set of customers gets preferential treatment over another set. If people wish to defend their right to be left high and dry, whilst another set of customers gets preferential treatment, good luck with that I guess.

 

I don't even view this as an old-gen, current gen issue, I break it right down to its source and put myself in that same situation, because it could happen across any platform. We've already seen that to a small degree with the JoH exclusivity deal. At least that was known well before the game was released so customers could make an informed decision in that instance, and that is key.

 

If, for example, when DA4 comes around it's announced that PC won't be getting any access to DLC releases whilst X-Box and PS4 have all sorts of great content planned to be coming out, that would absolutely affect my purchasing decision.

 

@thewatcheruatu DLC, excpansion packs, add ons etc  have actually been around for 20 years or more, right back the Wing Commander, Ultima 7 days. Perhaps even before that. Sure it's up to a company if they wish to release extra DLC, some may choose not to, their choice.

 

That's it, that's all ​I've got to say on the subject. Just gonna have to agree to disagree with some people.  I don't know how else to explain it.

And the decisions have all been made and it doesn't seem likely that anything is going to change for those affected in this instance.

[Avejajed]

You know what happens when you assume.

[pdusen]

Customers have a right to think they're going to be treated fairly across the board, not one set of customers gets preferential treatment over another set. 

 

No, customers have a right to get what they paid for, which is exactly what has happened. No customer was sold a promise of any DLC, let alone all of the same DLC.

 

Of course, you also have the right to take this event into consideration the next time you think of buying a Bioware game. Just don't pretend that this is more than what it is.

[Dabrikishaw]

I guess I should agree that this isn't unethical either, from Bioware or EA. To me, unethicality involves some sort of criminal behavior which this announcement isn't. At most I'd probably call it treating your customers poorly.

[Iakus]

No, customers have a right to get what they paid for, which is exactly what has happened. No customer was sold a promise of any DLC, let alone all of the same DLC.

 

Actually, no, the Timed exclusivity deal was revealed before release.  

 

We knew going in there would be DLC and the first SP DLC was going to the XBONE first.

[Iakus]

I guess I should agree that this isn't unethical either, from Bioware or EA. To me, unethicality involves some sort of criminal behavior which this announcement isn't. At most I'd probably call it treating your customers poorly.

 

"Treating your customer poorly" is putting it mildly.

 

I'd put it in more accurate terms, but the profanity filter would just asterix it out and I'd probably  get a warning.

[GithCheater]

 Treating your customers poorly might be legal, but it is definitely unethical.

 

www.ibe.org.uk/userassets/briefings/b39_customers.pdf

 

"Misleading Customers

 

Unethical treatment of customers – be they individual retail consumers, large institutional/B2B customers or corporate clients – is a challenge for companies in many sectors. It takes the form of providing misleading information, whether in the marketing/advertising ofproducts and services or in the sales practices of employees/representatives.

 

 

Irresponsible Marketing

 

Misleading customers can take many forms:

 

 False claims in adverts is one example. This doesn’t have to be wilful lying but could simply involve an exaggeration of the truth, considered as ‘crossing an ethical line’.

 Stealth marketing on the other hand, a more subtle form of unethical behaviour, is based on a deliberate intention to deceive whilst remaining within the law.

 Another way in which customers can be misled is through the use of small print in advertising or overly long terms and conditions, which are designed to be overlooked. This is supported by research in the USA which suggests that only approximately 1 in 1,000 online consumers read licence agreements when purchasing online."

[Sylvius the Mad]

There have been several statements that unavailability of DLC for last gen is unfair, but not unethical???

However, unfair is a synonym for unethical. Too many seem to confuse that something that is legal is not necessarily ethical.

Those words are not interchangeable salva veritate, and they would need to be for your position to make sense.

I don't think fairness or ethics enter into this at all. The platforms are being treated unequally, but unequal is not equivalent to unfair or unethical.

[Sylvius the Mad]

No, but the assumption, which is quite reasonable, and which Bioware did absolutely nothing to discourage, was that the game would be supported equally on all five platforms. WHen two of those platforms gets unceremoniously dropped by the wayside, such behavior will raise eyebrows.

I'm a PC gamer, and I'm totally sympathetic to the situation. This isn't a matter of "staying on the front line" it's being told that the game you buy at full price on a certain platform will be supported on that platform during the game's entire cycle. And then, less than a year later being told you're SOL.

How is the "entire cycle" defined?

Answer that question, examining all of the assumptions that definition requires, and you'll see why this isn't so clear as you think it is.

[Iakus]

How is the "entire cycle" defined?

Answer that question, examining all of the assumptions that definition requires, and you'll see why this isn't so clear as you think it is.

When official patches stop entirely and when they stop producing DLC.

 

You think they don't have a point where this stuff sunsets?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Actually, no, the Timed exclusivity deal was revealed before release.

We knew going in there would be DLC and the first SP DLC was going to the XBONE first.

Okay, but BioWare delivered in that. We all were able to buy the product BioWare said they would deliver.

[Iakus]

Okay, but BioWare delivered in that. We all were able to buy the product BioWare said they would deliver.

Yeah we were all able to buy the "first" SP DLC (eventually)...

 

Kinda sucks to have to play Exact Words with a game company like it's some kind of malevolent genie.

[Zanallen]

 Treating your customers poorly might be legal, but it is definitely unethical.

 

www.ibe.org.uk/userassets/briefings/b39_customers.pdf

 

"Misleading Customers

 

Unethical treatment of customers – be they individual retail consumers, large institutional/B2B customers or corporate clients – is a challenge for companies in many sectors. It takes the form of providing misleading information, whether in the marketing/advertising ofproducts and services or in the sales practices of employees/representatives.

 

 

Irresponsible Marketing

 

Misleading customers can take many forms:

 

 False claims in adverts is one example. This doesn’t have to be wilful lying but could simply involve an exaggeration of the truth, considered as ‘crossing an ethical line’.

 Stealth marketing on the other hand, a more subtle form of unethical behaviour, is based on a deliberate intention to deceive whilst remaining within the law.

 Another way in which customers can be misled is through the use of small print in advertising or overly long terms and conditions, which are designed to be overlooked. This is supported by research in the USA which suggests that only approximately 1 in 1,000 online consumers read licence agreements when purchasing online."

 

None of those pertains to this situation. Bioware hasn't lied to you, not did they deliberately attempt to mislead you. Now, if you could prove that Bioware knew before they began working on the DLCs that they would drop support for the last gen consoles and deliberately withheld that information, you might have a case. But I doubt you have any evidence of such a thing occurring.

[GithCheater]

"Misleading customers can take many forms:

 

 False claims in adverts is one example. This doesn’t have to be wilful lying but could simply involve an exaggeration of the truth, considered as ‘crossing an ethical line’.

 Stealth marketing on the other hand, a more subtle form of unethical behaviour, is based on a deliberate intention to deceive whilst remaining within the law.

 Another way in which customers can be misled is through the use of small print in advertising or overly long terms and conditions, which are designed to be overlooked. This is supported by research in the USA which suggests that only approximately 1 in 1,000 online consumers read licence agreements when purchasing online."

 

All three of the above bullet points are relevent to the below stealth marketing of "only":

 

"Did you begin your Dragon Age: Inquisition adventure on a PlayStation 3 or Xbox 360 console and want to upgrade to a PlayStation 4 or Xbox One? We’ve got great news! With our brand new Save Importer feature, you can migrate your old saves, and continue your adventure without starting over from scratch*.

All future Dragon Age: Inquisition DLC will be available on PC, PlayStation 4, and Xbox One only, so we designed our Save Importer feature to help make the transition to a new console as easy as possible. Below, we’ll walk you through the migration process for each console, as well as provide a helpful FAQ.

 

* Requires Dragon Age: Inquisition to play; sold separately; Requires purchase of PlayStation 4 or Xbox One console."

[Avejajed]

"Misleading customers can take many forms:

 False claims in adverts is one example. This doesn’t have to be wilful lying but could simply involve an exaggeration of the truth, considered as ‘crossing an ethical line’.
 Stealth marketing on the other hand, a more subtle form of unethical behaviour, is based on a deliberate intention to deceive whilst remaining within the law.
 Another way in which customers can be misled is through the use of small print in advertising or overly long terms and conditions, which are designed to be overlooked. This is supported by research in the USA which suggests that only approximately 1 in 1,000 online consumers read licence agreements when purchasing online."

All three of the above bullet points are relevent to the below stealth marketing of "only":

"Did you begin your Dragon Age: Inquisition adventure on a PlayStation 3 or Xbox 360 console and want to upgrade to a PlayStation 4 or Xbox One? We’ve got great news! With our brand new Save Importer feature, you can migrate your old saves, and continue your adventure without starting over from scratch*.
All future Dragon Age: Inquisition DLC will be available on PC, PlayStation 4, and Xbox One only, so we designed our Save Importer feature to help make the transition to a new console as easy as possible. Below, we’ll walk you through the migration process for each console, as well as provide a helpful FAQ.

* Requires Dragon Age: Inquisition to play; sold separately; Requires purchase of PlayStation 4 or Xbox One console."

No. Stealth marketing is like....

Ashley Madison! Life is short, cheat on your wife! Totally confidential forever! No one will ever know your secret!





•Ashley Madison can not guarantee your privacy.

[Spankatola]

Yeah we were all able to buy the "first" SP DLC (eventually)...

 

Kinda sucks to have to play Exact Words with a game company like it's some kind of malevolent genie.

 

The only games being played here are the gymnastics required to pretend that marketing a game creates a promise that the purchaser will always be able to buy everything related to that game forever and ever, even distinct content that costs more money. That's never been a thing. There is no "right of access to future content." It's a ridiculous, childish, "no-fair!" foot stomping argument.

 

Everyone got what they paid for.

[Sylvius the Mad]

When official patches stop entirely and when they stop producing DLC.

For the old consoles, that has already happened.

The 360 and XB1 versions of the game are distinct products.

[Paul E Dangerously]

The thing is, this isn't a last-minute decision. They didn't just now decide that they're going to take the last-gen gamers out behind the shed and put them out of their misery, they've known for a long time and deliberately hid that fact. The Descent didn't come out of nowhere. Even assuming they waited until Jaws of Hakkon was completely done, that's at least March. Which realistically, probably puts the actual cutoff somewhere in February. Or even earlier depending on how the DLC was planned out.

 

They've avoided last-gen gamers all along. The only fixes we've gotten were general ones shared across platforms. There have been six posts from Bioware employees in the time since release in the last-gen support thread, and it's got over a hundred and fourteen pages. Then when this news was finally announced, they hid the thread way down in the Multiplayer Combat Strategy forum. Because that's the obvious place to pop the thread about how you're abandoning ship, yes?

 

It isn't just the lack of future DLC. Yes, I could go on and on about how DAI was basically built for DLC because it left so many plotholes that the game looks like swiss cheese, but that's just a small part. It's a lack of support, a lack of dialogue, and a lack of explanation about damn near anything. Even worse, half of the posts about it merely receive the same "you get what you bought" and "you should have upgraded" drivel.

 

Like old-gen gamers had the foresight to know that Bioware was not only going to stick them with a lame duck version, totally ignore them afterward and then drop support without a word to the contrary?

[Dio Demon]

The thing is, this isn't a last-minute decision

Evidence?

[pdusen]

The thing is, this isn't a last-minute decision. They didn't just now decide that they're going to take the last-gen gamers out behind the shed and put them out of their misery, they've known for a long time and deliberately hid that fact. The Descent didn't come out of nowhere. Even assuming they waited until Jaws of Hakkon was completely done, that's at least March. Which realistically, probably puts the actual cutoff somewhere in February. Or even earlier depending on how the DLC was planned out.

 

There's absolutely no indication that they knew they'd be dropping last-gen support before starting development on The Descent. It's likely a decision they didn't make until well into Descent's development, when they identified some problem areas and had to evaluate whether the ROI would be worth making them work on last-gen.

[Zanallen]

 

"Misleading customers can take many forms:

 

 False claims in adverts is one example. This doesn’t have to be wilful lying but could simply involve an exaggeration of the truth, considered as ‘crossing an ethical line’.

 Stealth marketing on the other hand, a more subtle form of unethical behaviour, is based on a deliberate intention to deceive whilst remaining within the law.

 Another way in which customers can be misled is through the use of small print in advertising or overly long terms and conditions, which are designed to be overlooked. This is supported by research in the USA which suggests that only approximately 1 in 1,000 online consumers read licence agreements when purchasing online."

 

All three of the above bullet points are relevent to the below stealth marketing of "only":

 

"Did you begin your Dragon Age: Inquisition adventure on a PlayStation 3 or Xbox 360 console and want to upgrade to a PlayStation 4 or Xbox One? We’ve got great news! With our brand new Save Importer feature, you can migrate your old saves, and continue your adventure without starting over from scratch*.

All future Dragon Age: Inquisition DLC will be available on PC, PlayStation 4, and Xbox One only, so we designed our Save Importer feature to help make the transition to a new console as easy as possible. Below, we’ll walk you through the migration process for each console, as well as provide a helpful FAQ.

 

* Requires Dragon Age: Inquisition to play; sold separately; Requires purchase of PlayStation 4 or Xbox One console."

 

 

Except you would have already purchased the last gen version of the game at this point. As such, that marketing isn't trying to deceive you in any way. It is announcing a new feature and stating a fact.

[duckley]

No doubt at some point they contemplated having to drop old gen ....that does not mean they had it all pre-planned at game launch. I agree that it makes sense that at some point during development of the Decent they recognized that like it or not, they would  have to pull the plug.

 

Bioware I am sure would have preferred not to annoy part of their fan base - that's why IMO they chose to go for the 5 options in the first place. I believe (no evidence) they did not want to ****** off any fans by going new gen only.

 

Unfortunately for old gens at some point they must have realized that the game on old gen was inferior and  probably economically, to keep trying to fix the old gen problems and to keep having to limited content and presentation for old gen was simply a a losing proposition. Like it or not, companies have to make money. 

 

I don't think Bioware is an unethical company. I appreciate the disappointment. I cant speak for any others, but I played 6 play throughs of DA:I and bought Jaws. The game wasn't perfect, but it brought me a ton of pleasure and entertainment. Well worth the money I paid.

[Iakus]

 
The 360 and XB1 versions of the game are distinct products.

They weren't advertised as such.