514 réponses à ce sujet

[TreeHuggerHannah]

I'm mostly over this decision by Bioware. When I think about it still annoys me, but I don't think about it that much. I saved up enough money to get the PS4 I'd been planning on anyway, and I bought a used copy of DAI for it - definitely not paying Bioware for the same game twice because of their decision, so at least getting it used softened the blow a bit. The game definitely looks prettier, especially the character models.

 

I've lost a lot of faith in Bioware/EA as a whole throughout this whole thing, though, and I will be less inclined to take them at face value in the future.

 

The bottom line for me is that if I'd been told at the time of purchase that there was even a possibility that they were going to consider dropping old gen consoles if it became necessary in the future, if it had been disclosed that the option was even on the table, I would not have bought the game for old gen and would have avoided the whole thing.

 

Ultimately it's water under the bridge, though, and they're going to do what they want.

[Narcosynthesis]

There were zero 360, ps3 or ps4 DLC's sold when the cross-by decision was made by Bioware.   The Cross-buy announcement was two days after Jaws of Haakon was released on 360 ps3 and ps4 (therefore the decision was made before the xbone exclusive ended).

 

Still mere speculation because as I said (and Zanallen pointed out as well): the cross buy announcement and the drop are not necessarily related. And even if they were, my point still stands: What's the argument here? In that case all they did was delaying the identical discussion, which was 1) not relevant at the release of JoH and 2) would have remained the same whenever the news was released. Also, even if the decision for the drop was indeed made before the release of Jaws (which, again, is speculative): They already knew the additional costs and work-hours required to make a DLC for old gen...and it can't be that hard for a company in this business to predict the approximate number of sales on old gen well enough to come to the conclusion that they don't justify the work effort. No false advertising was made there, no evil masterplan - just plain old business decisions, which can be good or bad for a customer, yes, but happen every day in every field. Nothing unethical about that.

[Voodoo Dancer]

@hannah ...i didn't know the game crashed as much on the ps4 also , that's disappointing , i am just going to get a ps4 though admittedly not for inquisition mostly for the witcher and maybe destiny ,  now there's a game that seems to run really smooth , maybe bioware ought to hire those guys to craft their game for them 

[Narcosynthesis]

I've lost a lot of faith in Bioware/EA as a whole throughout this whole thing, though, and I will be less inclined to take them at face value in the future.

 

The bottom line for me is that if I'd been told at the time of purchase that there was even a possibility that they were going to consider dropping old gen consoles if it became necessary in the future, if it had been disclosed that the option was even on the table, I would not have bought the game for old gen and would have avoided the whole thing.

 

Ultimately it's water under the bridge, though, and they're going to do what they want.

 

It's somewhat sad that you had to lose faith that way, but ultimately I'd say it is a smart thing to not take too many things at face value in the entertainment industry in general. 

 

I mean, maybe I'd make a statement similar to yours if I were among those affected by the drop, but let's face it: it is a rather emotional argument. Because on a mere logical level: what kind of disclosure can we seriously expect? That they reveal all possible business plans? That they publicly account for all possibilities at the risk of earning a sh*tstorm if stuff still developed in another direction? Would you, for example, expect them to explicitly point out that if sales numbers had been catastrophic there would be the possibility of not releasing any DLC at all? Or that there might be a possibility that they'd just release DLC for, say, the XBone if Microsoft would one day suddenly decide to pay 5 billion dollars for a deal of total exclusivity? 

 

I'm exaggarating here, of course, but the point is: there can always be developments leading (or forcing) a company to change strategy - you can't expect any absolute certainty there. Especially with games where the system I'm currently playing on is on the lower end of the scale, I tend to be overly cautious and expect problems beforehand. Better to lower expectations beforehand and be pleasantly surprised if all turns out well than getting your hopes up too high. 

[Panda]

Really? The most broken game you have ever experienced? Why didn't you return it then? If I had a game that I could barely play because of freezes, crashes, and glitches (a broken game), I would have returned it. That is something you can do with console games. Or, if you waited too long to return it, then trade it in for cash or credit. Have you beaten the game?

 

Look, the fact of the matter is, the game works. It is a working game. I've played it on the old gen consoles. It looks like crap and I have had the occasional freeze, but it works. My cousin has beaten it on the 360 several times. Bioware is not going to make more patches for the old gen version. These things happen. Patching and content creation always comes to an end eventually. Sometimes it ends with game breaking bugs still in play. That's life. Personally, I don't think Bioware is going to patch anything more for the current gen versions either, aside from DLC issues. If you feel bad about how Bioware is treating you, I suggest you let your wallet do the talking and don't buy their games anymore.

 

I bought it from another country so returning would have been bit hard I believe, especially when I had opened to package and started playing the game. Also I did expect Bioware to patch it up eventually.

 

It works isn't simply enough to make people happy. The game is expected to be good and if it's not people will complain. Have you seen all the topics people complain about DAI here? Some don't like wartable, some don't like Skyhold pyjamas. However no other complain gets shut down as much from fellow players than complains about game's technical problems like crashing and DLC drop from old gen. Somehow people just like getting old gen players back on this and call it players fault and I sincerely wonder why that is.

 

And yes that is life. Life is also about complaining when you are treated badly as customer. What I'm doing now. I rather Bioware owned up to their **** than abandoned the series I have hold dear years. Like I have said previously in this thread, none of us would be here complaining if we didn't like Bioware's games in the beginning with. That's why this treatment angers us so.

[pdusen]

I hate using the word entitled, because it is used so overly often and often maliciously, but I think what we have in this thread is a very real textbook example of entitlement, and no amount of logic or reason is going to change their minds.

TLDR; I'm out. Peace.

[GithCheater]

It is amazing how so many people have been conditioned to accept intentionally poor customer service as acceptable and try to forcefully impose that view on dissatisfied customers:

"But Bioware is part of a corporation and are forced by EA to intentionally have poor customer service, and thus have no ethical obligation to try to provide good customer service".

[Panda]

I hate using the word entitled, because it is used so overly often and often maliciously, but I think what we have in this thread is a very real textbook example of entitlement, and no amount of logic or reason is going to change their minds.

TLDR; I'm out. Peace.

 

Entitled to support and DLC's? Oh the horror

 

Seriously that is the standard of the industry. You buy the game, the game works badly, it gets patched cause developers released it in hurry and developers will do DLC's that you will buy if you like the game. How is it entitlement to expect normality?

[Zanallen]

I bought it from another country so returning would have been bit hard I believe, especially when I had opened to package and started playing the game. Also I did expect Bioware to patch it up eventually.

 

It works isn't simply enough to make people happy. The game is expected to be good and if it's not people will complain. Have you seen all the topics people complain about DAI here? Some don't like wartable, some don't like Skyhold pyjamas. However no other complain gets shut down as much from fellow players than complains about game's technical problems like crashing and DLC drop from old gen. Somehow people just like getting old gen players back on this and call it players fault and I sincerely wonder why that is.

 

And yes that is life. Life is also about complaining when you are treated badly as customer. What I'm doing now. I rather Bioware owned up to their **** than abandoned the series I have hold dear years. Like I have said previously in this thread, none of us would be here complaining if we didn't like Bioware's games in the beginning with. That's why this treatment angers us so.

 

"At this point it's bit useless to say what they should have not done unless BW owns time machine ^^" - Panda.

 

Remember when you said that? And all those other complaints? Subjective. But no one is trying to claim Bioware broke some moral mode with those decisions. Perhaps that is the reason for the pushback? The ludicrous claim of unethical behavior? If you all were just claiming bad customer service, you'd probably have little pushback and most people, including me, would agree with you. 'Cause that's par for the course for Bioware.

 

"It is amazing how so many people have been conditioned to accept intentionally poor customer as acceptable and try to forcefully impose that view on dissatisfied customers" - Githcheater.

 

It isn't conditioning. It is accepting the reality of the situation. Don't like Bioware's customer service? Don't buy their games. This is capitalism. Hurting the bottom line is the only way to get your point across. Whining on the forums of a developer who barely shows up to interact with the community isn't going to get you far. You want Bioware to know why you are mad? Fine, make a simple statement and then move on and back up that statement with action. If you keep buying their games despite not liking their treatment of you, you are a part of the problem.

[Panda]

"At this point it's bit useless to say what they should have not done unless BW owns time machine ^^" - Panda.

 

Remember when you said that? And all those other complaints? Subjective. But no one is trying to claim Bioware broke some moral mode with those decisions. Perhaps that is the reason for the pushback? The ludicrous claim of unethical behavior? If you all were just claiming bad customer service, you'd probably have little pushback and most people, including me, would agree with you. 'Cause that's par for the course for Bioware.

 

"It is amazing how so many people have been conditioned to accept intentionally poor customer as acceptable and try to forcefully impose that view on dissatisfied customers" - Githcheater.

 

It isn't conditioning. It is accepting the reality of the situation. Don't like Bioware's customer service? Don't buy their games. This is capitalism. Hurting the bottom line is the only way to get your point across. Whining on the forums of a developer who barely shows up to interact with the community isn't going to get you far. You want Bioware to know why you are mad? Fine, make a simple statement and then move on and back up that statement with action. If you keep buying their games despite not liking their treatment of you, you are a part of the problem.

 

Well if you think of ME3 endings or some other things like that.. people were really mad and thought they were entitled lot of things.

 

This problem we have here is customer problem. We are denied from purchasing future content that would normally be available (DLC's) and we are denied of fix of our product what we would normally get.

 

I think "whining" is better than simply leaving your favorite game series. It's like: no feedback, no complaints, nothing allowed. That isn't capitalism btw. Not that I'm even fond of capitalism. And yes I have been thinking of solutions. On of them is buying games used, no money for Bioware that way and recycling top of that: saving the earth one BW game at time Another would be no preorders that goes with first one obviously, then complaining about it: yes I'm planning to keep this up and then warning people about BW's tactics so other people don't get so nasty suprises as I did with the company. When you really like company and it's games you can easily get too naive and trusting- I don't do that mistake again. But sorry, I can't leave, not when my friends are into series, my tumblr is full of the series, DAO and DA2 are my fav games and when I have friends on the forums. Too invested to simply cut off.

Though I wonder what your pull is in this. Complaining about people complaining? It's somewhat counterproductive.

[Morroian]

I hate using the word entitled, because it is used so overly often and often maliciously, but I think what we have in this thread is a very real textbook example of entitlement, and no amount of logic or reason is going to change their minds.

TLDR; I'm out. Peace.

 

You reckon entitled is misused then you go on to misuse it, gg.

[TreeHuggerHannah]

It's somewhat sad that you had to lose faith that way, but ultimately I'd say it is a smart thing to not take too many things at face value in the entertainment industry in general. 

 

I mean, maybe I'd make a statement similar to yours if I were among those affected by the drop, but let's face it: it is a rather emotional argument. Because on a mere logical level: what kind of disclosure can we seriously expect? That they reveal all possible business plans? That they publicly account for all possibilities at the risk of earning a sh*tstorm if stuff still developed in another direction? Would you, for example, expect them to explicitly point out that if sales numbers had been catastrophic there would be the possibility of not releasing any DLC at all? Or that there might be a possibility that they'd just release DLC for, say, the XBone if Microsoft would one day suddenly decide to pay 5 billion dollars for a deal of total exclusivity? 

 

I'm exaggarating here, of course, but the point is: there can always be developments leading (or forcing) a company to change strategy - you can't expect any absolute certainty there. Especially with games where the system I'm currently playing on is on the lower end of the scale, I tend to be overly cautious and expect problems beforehand. Better to lower expectations beforehand and be pleasantly surprised if all turns out well than getting your hopes up too high. 

 

Sure, of course it's emotional. But customer satisfaction is in part based on emotion, and I was not a satisfied customer. One unsatisfied customer doesn't matter to Bioware I'm sure, but it can add up if a company isn't careful.

 

I hope Bioware learned some things from this.

[Avejajed]

Sure, of course it's emotional. But customer satisfaction is in part based on emotion, and I was not a satisfied customer. One unsatisfied customer doesn't matter to Bioware I'm sure, but it can add up if a company isn't careful.

 

I hope Bioware learned some things from this.

 

Well they learned not to try to make a game on old platforms still using 10 year old technology, so that's something.

[GithCheater]

I am fatter and happier this morning because of Boston Market (a "healthy" fast food chicken restaurant chain in the US).

Boston Market took over 15 minutes to fill a customer order for one of my coworkers last night (she got a free tray of brownies and an APOLOGY). The lateness of the order was due to HONEST human error.

Boston Market is a large corporation that has obligations to their shareholders, but yet gave my coworker a free tray of brownies despite having no legal obligation to do so.

Yes, in hindsight, offering DAI on last gen consoles was an honest mistake by Bioware. However, Bioware's poor customer service was intentionally crass and therefore unethical.

[Iakus]

Well they learned not to try to make a game on old platforms still using 10 year old technology, so that's something.

Hopefully they also learned not to cut off support of a platform mid-cycle without explanation or apology as well.

[Zanallen]

I am fatter and happier this morning because of Boston Market (a "healthy" fast food chicken restaurant chain in the US).

Boston Market took over 15 minutes to fill a customer order for one of my coworkers last night (she got a free tray of brownies and an APOLOGY). The lateness of the order was due to HONEST human error.

Boston Market is a large corporation that has obligations to their shareholders, but yet gave my coworker a free tray of brownies despite having no legal obligation to do so.

Yes, in hindsight, offering DAI on last gen consoles was an honest mistake by Bioware. However, Bioware's poor customer service was intentionally crass and therefore unethical.

 

Hey look! It is two completely incomparable situations!

[TreeHuggerHannah]

Hey look! It is two completely incomparable situations!

 

Not really. Both were situations where customers were inconvenienced. In the example the poster gave, an apology was offered along with a token effort to make up for the inconvenience. In the console dropping situation, the way the news was presented was about as far from an apology as you can get, and even fairly painless token efforts to make it up to the customer (for example, a discount on re-purchasing the game) were never offered.

 

In both situations, there was presumably no way to prevent the customers' inconvenience. They couldn't get back their wait time for their food, and apparently supporting last gen consoles simply wasn't possible. The whole point of the analogy is that even if this was inevitable, it could have been handled much better from a customer service standpoint.

[Panda]

I am fatter and happier this morning because of Boston Market (a "healthy" fast food chicken restaurant chain in the US).

Boston Market took over 15 minutes to fill a customer order for one of my coworkers last night (she got a free tray of brownies and an APOLOGY). The lateness of the order was due to HONEST human error.

Boston Market is a large corporation that has obligations to their shareholders, but yet gave my coworker a free tray of brownies despite having no legal obligation to do so.

Yes, in hindsight, offering DAI on last gen consoles was an honest mistake by Bioware. However, Bioware's poor customer service was intentionally crass and therefore unethical.

 

Reminds me of two times I visited different fast food restaurants. In first restaurant my hamburger had cheese in it although I did special order and asked it without cheese. So I went to counter and told it, manager of the restaurant came to me, apologized, brought the person who cooked the hamburger to apologize to me and said they would do new hamburger for me. After I got my hamburger the manager came again to apologize and gave free ice-creams for whole family. I really think it was quite much overkill of customer service and was very taken a back, because of it- but same time I felt like wow these people really care about their customers and want to make them happy.

 

Then the other place. This time my hamburger was missing steak, it had buns, ketchup and pickled cucumbers, but no stake. I went to counter and had to line up, because it was rush hour in the restaurant. When it got to my turn person in counter took my hamburger back and ordered me new one- but looked annoyed and didn't apologize. Although I understand it was bit inconvenient for them in the rush.. well it's still their mistake and inconvenient for me as well. So it left me bad image of the place and it's customer service as well.

 

Very similarly as Bioware has left bad image of them to me with their customer service and made me feel like I don't matter as customer and they aren't interested in me: like that to that second restaurant I'm annoying customer who complains when her hamburger doesn't have beef in it. Which is pretty much state of DAI on PS3 though, hamburger without beef if you think of things that are unfixed and DLC's that are missing

 

Analogy works, cause it's about customer service and that is pretty much universal... especially apology is.

[Zanallen]

Not really. Both were situations where customers were inconvenienced. In the example the poster gave, an apology was offered along with a token effort to make up for the inconvenience. In the console dropping situation, the way the news was presented was about as far from an apology as you can get, and even fairly painless token efforts to make it up to the customer (for example, a discount on re-purchasing the game) were never offered.

 

In both situations, there was presumably no way to prevent the customers' inconvenience. They couldn't get back their wait time for their food, and apparently supporting last gen consoles simply wasn't possible. The whole point of the analogy is that even if this was inevitable, it could have been handled much better from a customer service standpoint.

 

Except in one case, it was an offering to one customer and an offer of relatively little monetary value at that. In the other, it would be to everyone who purchased the last gen versions of the game. The sheer difference in scale makes it incomparable. Now, you'd be closer to the mark if that Boston Market for some reason had to shut down their kitchens and gave everyone there a coupon for 50% of their meal at the other Boston Market up the road.

[TreeHuggerHannah]

Except in one case, it was an offering to one customer and an offer of relatively little monetary value at that. In the other, it would be to everyone who purchased the last gen versions of the game. The sheer difference in scale makes it incomparable. Now, you'd be closer to the mark if that Boston Market for some reason had to shut down their kitchens and gave everyone there a coupon for 50% of their meal at the other Boston Market up the road.

 

But we're talking about customers who already bought the game and thus most would not be purchasing the game a second time at all under ordinary circumstances... i.e. these are primarily sales generated by this decision which otherwise would not have happened. Most people don't buy the same game on multiple platforms just for the heck of it, so it's not like this is their usual bread and butter market.

 

Plus we're talking about a game that's almost a year old, rather than a brand new product, and which is widely available used at this point. 

 

It also doesn't make sense to try to have it both ways - sales of the game on old gen were so low that it was impossible to continue developing for them but also so high that it would harm Bioware to give even a token discount to people who bought them if they want to upgrade?

 

For the record, I bought my second copy of the game used because I was frustrated about this, whereas I would have just added it to my PSN account digitally if there had been a discounted version available. So Bioware got nothing at all from me for my second game copy instead of a discounted amount... they didn't come out ahead at all on that sale by keeping the game at full price, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who did that. 

[Zanallen]

But we're talking about customers who already bought the game and thus most would not be purchasing the game a second time at all under ordinary circumstances... i.e. these are primarily sales generated by this decision which otherwise would not have happened. Most people don't buy the same game on multiple platforms just for the heck of it, so it's not like this is their usual bread and butter market.

 

Plus we're talking about a game that's almost a year old, rather than a brand new product, and which is widely available used at this point. 

 

It also doesn't make sense to try to have it both ways - sales of the game on old gen were so low that it was impossible to continue developing for them but also so high that it would harm Bioware to give even a token discount to people who bought them if they want to upgrade?

 

For the record, I bought my second copy of the game used because I was frustrated about this, whereas I would have just added it to my PSN account digitally if there had been a discounted version available. So Bioware got nothing at all from me for my second game copy instead of a discounted amount... they didn't come out ahead at all on that sale by keeping the game at full price, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who did that. 

 

I don't think Bioware wants you to buy a second copy of the game at all. Sure, the extra income would be nice, but as you say it is a year old game with the only new content being one (Maybe two) DLCs. I don't think they stopped development because of low sales, though that may have been a factor. I think it was because the game was already unwieldy on the old consoles and further content would increase the burden much like what happened with Skyrim on the PS3. Of course, this is just my own interpretation of the situation. I freely admit that Bioware has done a ****** poor job in terms of community relations, but I understand that there isn't going to be any sort of official announcement without the okay of the EA higher ups and their PR department. 'Cause that is how publicly traded companies work.

[TreeHuggerHannah]

I don't think Bioware wants you to buy a second copy of the game at all. 

 

...They want me to just stop buying stuff from them? How would that possibly benefit them? Not quite understanding what you're getting at here.

[Zanallen]

...They want me to just stop buying stuff from them? How would that possibly benefit them? Not quite understanding what you're getting at here.

 

Stopping development for the last gen games was not intended to force you to buy the current gen version. They don't want you to feel the need to purchase the game again.

[TreeHuggerHannah]

Stopping development for the last gen games was not intended to force you to buy the current gen version. They don't want you to feel the need to purchase the game again.

 

Obviously "force" is too strong a word, but if they didn't want customers to buy the game again why would they go to the trouble of creating a save importer or make the JoH a dual purchase? 

 

Trying to get customers to buy the game a second time wasn't the reason for the decision and I don't think anyone is arguing that it is, but saying they don't want people to do it at all just isn't realistic.