394 réponses à ce sujet

[PhroXenGold]

Yeah, Viv's not a femme fatale. The closest BW have really done to one that I can think of is Morinth, but even she lacks the illusion of vulnerability that classic examples of the trope typically use. The femme fatale portrays herself as the "damsel in distress" in order to manipulate the hero into doing her bidding. She's the dame that walks through the PI's door at the beginning of the hardboiled film noir detective story, scared and helpless, fleeing from her husbands killer (or so she claims...), a half veil covering her eyes, a flash of pale skin and red lipstick. She's trouble, big trouble, but our hero can't resist her vulnerable sensuality.

[Grieving Natashina]

Yeah, Viv's not a femme fatale. The closest BW have really done to one that I can think of is Morinth, but even she lacks the illusion of vulnerability that classic examples of the trope typically use. The femme fatale portarys herself as the "damsel in distress" in order to manipulate the hero into doing her bidding. She's the dame that walks through the PI's door at the beginning of the hardboiled film noir detective story, scared and helpless, fleeing from her husbands killer (or so she claims...), a half veil covering her eyes, a flash of pale skin and red lipstick. She's trouble, big trouble, but our hero can't resist her vulnerable sensuality.

It reminds me of a profile feed on the BSN I did about a month ago.  I made an update about the weather and a friend of mine mentioned that it sounded like a film noir novel.  We did, I don't know, about a dozen lines back and forth along those lines.  It was unexpected, but a lot of fun.  

 

You know, a femme fatale character along those lines would be neat.  I know it's only tangentially related to the thread, but I think the ME series could use just a touch of film noir.  I wouldn't want it as an overwhelming theme, nor would I want a PC that narrates everything (Athena knows that movies do that often enough.)  However, I think the ME series could use a little of that influence, as well as the current ones with Star Trek, Blade Runner, ect.  If we had a femme fatale and a detective character, like major NPC or squadmate, I think I could have fun with that.  

[DaemionMoadrin]

@maia0407: The issue isn't the 'what', it is the 'how'. Your message gets lost when you try to argue aggressively and respond to the trolls. This isn't about feminism or other social issues, it's about forum culture. Some things work and some things don't.

 

Also, thank you very much for the snarky comments when I was trying to help. I did in fact take my own advice and responded in many, many threads, trying to keep the discussions factual.

[Boobasaurus]

Do you even know what my position is or are you just assuming a position because it's easier to lump someone that defends their stance just as strongly as you guys into some bucket of 'rad fem' that can be dismissed? I'm really not that radical; I just ****** some of you off by dishing back out what you give. Beerfish, while I get the impression he disagrees with me from the snarky tone which I didn't bother to cry about, actually took the time to ask, and I told him some of my views. I didn't go into much detail as it was 3 am where I live and I was exhausted. But, asking for combat armor, helmets and sensible shoes for women in a video game isn't radical. Asking that women are given characterization and not designed to serve as objects for men isn't radical. Objecting to rape and pedophilia in video games isn't radical. Objecting to assigning traits to people based on gender alone isn't radical. These are the positions I've actually expressed on the BSN. You may not like the way I express them but instead of tone policing why don't you take your own advice and respond with facts, etc.

 

Something that I've noticed a few times is that the argument of physically attractive characters designed to serve as sex objects is mostly brought up by feminsts themselves. Take Miranda for example. She has an interesting personality and plenty of character growth throughout the series, but I only see countless post about that goddamn catsuit. As if this suddenly makes her a lesser character in the eyes of feminists. Isn't this just as damaging? 

[maia0407]

@maia0407: The issue isn't the 'what', it is the 'how'. Your message gets lost when you try to argue aggressively and respond to the trolls. This isn't about feminism or other social issues, it's about forum culture. Some things work and some things don't.

 

Also, thank you very much for the snarky comments when I was trying to help. I did in fact take my own advice and responded in many, many threads, trying to keep the discussions factual.

I get that you are trying to help but policing my tone isn't really helping. It's just another tool in the bucket to silence me even if that's not your intent. All tones are needed when fighting back against these issues. In fact, I'm just keeping pace with the tone of many posters on this forum. And, that's what I meant about taking your own advice; policing my tone is not keeping things factual. At any rate, I'm not trying to upset you. I think you are a nice person and I apologize for coming across as snarky to you.

[maia0407]

Something that I've noticed a few times is that the argument of physically attractive characters designed to serve as sex objects is mostly brought up by feminsts themselves. Take Miranda for example. She has an interesting personality and plenty of character growth throughout the series, but I only see countless post about that goddamn catsuit. As if this suddenly makes her a lesser character in the eyes of feminists. Isn't this just as damaging? 

I agree that Bioware did a good job in giving Miranda an interesting personality. I don't necessarily have a problem with her catsuit outside of combat although I think it could be less vacuum sealy. lol But, the butt cam shots were over the top and only there to emphasize her ass. And, that's a problem. I don't really remember what she was talking about in that scene because that shot way over emphasized her physical qualities at the expense of her personality. I also had a problem with the inappropriate combat attire. There was no reason for that other than to appeal to her sexiness. Again, not appealing to her personality as a fighter, being smart or anything else.

[Panda]

Yeah, Viv's not a femme fatale. The closest BW have really done to one that I can think of is Morinth, but even she lacks the illusion of vulnerability that classic examples of the trope typically use. The femme fatale portarys herself as the "damsel in distress" in order to manipulate the hero into doing her bidding. She's the dame that walks through the PI's door at the beginning of the hardboiled film noir detective story, scared and helpless, fleeing from her husbands killer (or so she claims...), a half veil covering her eyes, a flash of pale skin and red lipstick. She's trouble, big trouble, but our hero can't resist her vulnerable sensuality.

 

Hmm, when put to that way I'm not too intrested in the character type. Have seen characters like that in various detective/police series though.

[Grieving Natashina]

@maia0407: The issue isn't the 'what', it is the 'how'. Your message gets lost when you try to argue aggressively and respond to the trolls. This isn't about feminism or other social issues, it's about forum culture. Some things work and some things don't.

 

Also, thank you very much for the snarky comments when I was trying to help. I did in fact take my own advice and responded in many, many threads, trying to keep the discussions factual.

This is going to be my only response to the posts along these lines, and then I'm going to continue to remain on topic.  This isn't addressed to anyone in particular, promise.  

 

I've been very active in threads asking for more representation of minorities/LGBT/female characters.  I always support those.  Some of the people in this very thread I've gotten into heated debates in, with threads like the Could We See More of the Lady Inquisitor thread from last year, the Please No More Sexualized Character thread, and many many others.  I've never backed down from what I believe.  I've started email campaigns in the name of better representation years back (not regarding DA or ME) and raised quite a stink over it too.  I've spoken out against the "sexy" poses that can pervade "nerd" culture, particularly in games and comics.  I really hate the "checking the watch" pose on the poster/concept art that showed the male and female characters.   I've spoken up in favor of having practical armor for combat, and against things like the infamous Miranda Butt-Cam.

 

However, like I mentioned, this isn't thread about that.  Sure, there's been some bait, but I tend to ignore it.  I found that I had to develop a thick skin if I was going to hang out in forum boards.  Especially since I'm out as agnostic, bisexual, and a feminist with no shame about it.  That can be a neat trick in the rather volatile climate.  I have no interest in kissing anyone's rear end, or hating on them just because I disagree.  I'd rather learn.  Sometimes, I see a different point of view and learn a lot.  Other times, I see posts that reaffirm my point of view because I disagree so strongly.  

 

Also, I've had the privilege of talking in private to many of the people on both "sides" of this debate.  I don't get aggressive, I don't start taking every little potshot as an attack on my beliefs as a person.  This is a thread requesting an archetype.  This isn't a thread declaring that "Straight men got screwed over" by the number of romance options.  This isn't a thread complaining that all the ladies looked mannish.  Many folks in this thread know that I wasn't quiet on those subjects, and will continue to speak out if they come up.  I laugh hard that those complaints, but this?  This is just a character request.  

 

I think the OP had a fine idea until both those that are experiencing backlash from radical feminism baited those that are sick of the SJW comments.  C'mon guys.  I've talked many of you guys (and gals) before, and I know that the ones I've personally chatted with are better than that.  Don't make cheap shots about feminists in threads like this.  I know you're frustrated and fed up, and you know that you're just egging people on.   Also, try not to rise to the bait, if you are on the opposite side of this discussion.  If it's a thread about feminism in gaming, then please speak out against the folks you disagree with!  Don't hesitate in those threads.  There is a time and place for this though.

 

The best part?  Most of the people I've talked to tend to agree with each other, even though they usually aren't aware of it.  A lot of it comes down to terms and semantics.  No one likes sexism or stereotypes.  Women don't enjoy the times where media likes to treat us as sex objects and "strong" women that "just need a man."  Some straight men don't enjoy having their sexuality used against them anymore than LGBT+ folks do.  They are also sick of the same old stereotypes, that straight men are rather dumb and "need a wife/girlfriend" to keep them in line.  There are some of those that are minorities are sick of seeing mostly white people and are tired of getting pushed to the sidelines.  Some transgendered folks that are sick of having to hide their existence and being treated usually like jokes instead of just regular people.  We'd all like to be treated as people, and many of us want to see that in our games as well.

 

 

That's pretty much all I can say about it at this point.

 

 

Something that I've noticed a few times is that the argument of physically attractive characters designed to serve as sex objects is mostly brought up by feminsts themselves. Take Miranda for example. She has an interesting personality and plenty of character growth throughout the series, but I only see countless post about that goddamn catsuit. As if this suddenly makes her a lesser character in the eyes of feminists. Isn't this just as damaging? 

I thought the cat suit design was poor aesthetically.  I mean, those scales looked awful.  She looks fantastic in her loyalty outfit as well as her DLC armor set.  It was the Butt-Cam while she was talking about her sister that I disliked.

 

Meanwhile, I'm huge fan of Isabela, Samara, Miranda (well, once I played ME3) and Jack.  Their looks fit their character overall.  Sure, I wouldn't want every lady character to run around in cat suits or without tops or pants.  I also have stated my feelings that I would prefer armor that at least covered up all of the flesh.  Otherwise, if it fits the character and the character is someone that the narrative takes seriously, I say "Why not?"

[SardaukarElite]

To be fair I'm quite confused here what is counted as femme fatale and what not cause I see people saying different characters are or aren't one ^^; So I'm quite between on do I like this character archtype or not, cause for example I'd take femme fatale anyday in the game if she was like Kasumi

 

In another thought, people keep mentioning ice queen and deceiving protagonist to help them. So wouldn't Vivienne be femme fatale if these points are considered? Or is she not seductive enough?

 

So, if you want the raw character type, TVTropes outlines the concept.

 

There's a problem here in that the femme fatale is a specific archetype from Film Noir which is a style heavy genre yet also an obscure one. The real Film Noirs will play with and defy their conventions while you also get a heap of imitators which play off the popular idea of what a Noir is, because it's cool.

 

I think the core thing is the femme fatale's relationship to the protagonist, she's the flame to the protagonist's moth. It's about falling in love, and knowing that it's going to hurt, and maybe not caring about how much it'll hurt. Beyond that there are a number of stylistic things (a smokey, dangerous, beautiful, intelligent, independent woman) which I think is more what's actually being asked for.

[maia0407]

 

This is going to be my only response to this, and then I'm going to continue to remain on topic.

 

I've been very active in threads asking for more representation of minorities/LGBT/female characters.  I always support those.  Some of the people in this very thread I've gotten into heated debates in, with threads like the Could We See More of the Lady Inquisitor thread from last year.  I've never backed down from what I believe.  I've started email campaigns in the name of better representation and raised quite a stink over it too.  I've spoken out against the "sexy" poses that can pervade "nerd" culture, particularly in games and comics.  I really hate the "checking the watch" pose on the poster/concept art that showed the male and female characters.  I've spoken up in favor of having practical armor for combat, and against things like the infamous Miranda Butt-Cam.

 

However, like I mentioned, this isn't thread about that.  Sure, there's been some bait, but I tend to ignore it.  I found that I had to develop a thick skin if I was going to hang out in forum boards.  Especially since I'm out as agnostic, bisexual, and a feminst.  That can be a neat trick in the rather volatile climate.  I have no interest in kissing anyone's rear end, or hating on them just because I disagree.  I'd rather learn.  Sometimes, I see a different point of view.  Other times, I see posts that reaffirm by point of view because I disagree so strongly.  

 

Also, I've had the privilege of talking in private to many of the people on both "sides" of this debate.  I don't get aggressive, I don't start taking every little potshot as an attack on my beliefs as a person.  This is a thread requesting an archetype.  This isn't a thread declaring that "Straight men got screwed over" by the number of romance options.  This isn't a thread complaining that all the ladies looked mannish.  Many folks in this thread know that I wasn't quiet on those subjects, and will continue to speak out if they come up.    

 

I think the OP had a fine idea until both those that are experiencing backlash from radical feminism baited those that are sick of the SJW comments.  C'mon guys.  I've talked many of you guys before, and I know that the ones I've personally chatted with are better than that.  Don't make cheap shots about feminists in threads like this.  I know you're frustrated and fed up, and you know that you're just egging people on.   Also, try not to rise to the bait, if you are on the opposite side of this discussion.  If it's a thread about feminism in gaming, then please speak out against the folks you disagree with!  Don't hesitate in those threads.  There is a time and place for this though.

 

The best part?  Most of the people I've talked to tend to agree with each other.  A lot of it comes down to terms and semantics.  No one likes sexism or stereotypes.  Women don't enjoy the times where likes to treat us as sex objects and "strong" women that "just need a man."  Some straight men don't enjoy having their sexuality used against them anymore than LGBT+ folks do.  They are also sick of the same old stereotypes, that straight men are rather dumb and "need a wife/girlfriend" to keep them in line.  Those that are minorities are sick of seeing mostly white people and are tired of getting pushed to the sidelines.  Some transgendered folks that are sick of having to hide their existence and being treated usually like jokes instead of just regular people.  

 

That's pretty much all I can say about it at this point.

 

 

I thought the cat suit design was poor aesthetically.  I mean, those scales looked awful.  She looks fantastic in her loyalty outfit as well as her DLC armor set.  It was the Butt-Cam while she was talking about her sister that I disliked.

 

Meanwhile, I'm huge fan of Isabela, Samara, Miranda (well, once I played ME3) and Jack.  Their looks fit their character overall.  Sure, I wouldn't want every lady character to run around in cat suits or without tops or pants.  However, if it suits the character, I say why not?

 

I'm really happy to know that you speak up when you think it's necessary. Not being sarcastic. I wasn't involved with those threads so I didn't see your comments. But, honestly, it's great to see other feminists speaking out around here. My first post to you wasn't meant as an attack as some are labeling it (the anti-fems mostly trying to stir the pot). But, I did feel like I was being told to pipe down by another feminist and felt the need to respond as having so many people attack the lone feminist and not the anti-fems gets tiring.

 

At any rate, a lot of what I'm being told about my tone boils down to telling me to be 'nice'. Your tone sounds very gentle and that's wonderful as you seem to have made strides with some of the people on this forum. My tone is not so nice sometimes. And, that's needed as well. Not so much to convince the people I'm arguing with but to push back against these ideas.

[daveliam]

Thank you, Nata! Fantastic post that summarizes my thoughts on this thread and the behavior within (without the underlying tone that my posts have held).

Now, more about film noir inspired, Lauren Bacall-esque, femme fatale ladies!

[Grieving Natashina]

I'm really happy to know that you speak up when you think it's necessary. Not being sarcastic. I wasn't involved with those threads so I didn't see your comments. But, honestly, it's great to see other feminists speaking out around here. My first post to you wasn't meant as an attack as some are labeling it (the anti-fems mostly trying to stir the pot). But, I did feel like I was being told to pipe down by another feminist and felt the need to respond as having so many people attack the lone feminist and not the anti-fems gets tiring.

 

At any rate, a lot of what I'm being told about my tone boils down to telling me to be 'nice'. Your tone sounds very gentle and that's wonderful as you seem to have made strides with some of the people on this forum. My tone is not so nice sometimes. And, that's needed as well. Not so much to convince the people I'm arguing with but to push back against these ideas.

I figure I'd address this real quick:

 

A little diplomacy goes a really long way.  There is a lot of good people on this forum board.  Many would try to convince you otherwise, but it's been my experience.  Also, try to be patient.  I know it's hard sometimes, and I'm sure I'm on some ignore lists.  I have my share of hidden posts too, so I'm far from perfect.  I've gotten in fights and heated debates too, but I try not to take that as personal.

 

Be less aggressive and you'd be surprised at the conversations you'll have.    That's my advice to you at this point.  You seem like a nice person and I can tell you mean well.  I think in this thread, we're better off having some fun and ignoring the snide remarks.

 

I did want to ask, now that we've gotten that out of the way:  What did you think of the thread topic itself?  There has been some cool ideas on variations of that archetype.  Anything in particular you would like? 

 

Thank you, Nata! Fantastic post that summarizes my thoughts on this thread and the behavior within (without the underlying tone that posts have held).

Now, more about film noir inspired, Lauren Bacall-esque, femme fatale ladies!

With a voice like Mae West:

 

"When choosing between two evils, I like to pick the one I never tried before."

[Boobasaurus]

I agree that Bioware did a good job in giving Miranda an interesting personality. I don't necessarily have a problem with her catsuit outside of combat although I think it could be less vacuum sealy. lol But, the butt cam shots were over the top and only there to emphasize her ass. And, that's a problem. I don't really remember what she was talking about in that scene because that shot way over emphasized her physical qualities at the expense of her personality. I also had a problem with the inappropriate combat attire. There was no reason for that other than to appeal to her sexiness. Again, not appealing to her personality as a fighter, being smart or anything else.

 

The butt-cam was awkward, I agree. However, I think we've complained about it enough for Bioware to get the message. Besides, let's not deny that Bioware has done plenty to appease the female fans as well (e.g. Kaidan butt-cam in ME3). 

 

Like I said, my main problem with some feminists who bring up physically attractive female characters as sex objects, is that they forget about any other aspect of her character. The fact that she is sexually objectified is the only thing that seems to matter to them. I believe it's only problematic when female characters exist for the sole purpose of being attractive while being incredibly one-dimensional. Aside from the butt-cam, I haven't seen this happen in Bioware games. 

 

Anyways, I don't want to derail the thread too much, so if you'd like to continue, send me a PM.

[maia0407]

A little diplomacy goes a really long way.  There is a lot of good people on this forum board.  Many would try to convince you otherwise, but it's been my experience.  Also, try to be patient.  I know it's hard sometimes, and I'm sure I'm on some ignore lists.  I have my share of hidden posts too, so I'm far from perfect.  I've gotten in fights and heated debates too, but I try not to take that as personal.

 

Be less aggressive and you'd be surprised at the conversations you'll have.    That's my advice to you at this point.  You seem like a nice person and I can tell you mean well.  I think in this thread, we're better off having some fun and ignoring the snide remarks.

 

I did want to ask, now that we've gotten that out of the way:  What did you think of the thread topic itself?  There has been some cool ideas on variations of that archetype.  Anything in particular you would like? 

 

With a voice like Mae West:

 

"When choosing between two evils, I like to pick the one I never tried before."

I'm not really worried about coming across as aggressive; sometimes it's necessary to deal with certain ideas/people. Some ideas aren't worthy of diplomatic debate especially when it's obvious the person has no intention of honestly discussing the issues. Of course, I can have reasonable discussions and I've had them in this very thread. People just tend to ignore those which is fine I guess. It's more fun to jump on the aggressive responses. At any rate, I've ignored plenty of comments on this forum. I have my limits and tend to respond when it's reached.

 

As to the femme fatale trope, something about it bugs me. I can't really put my finger on what exactly but I'm just against the idea of creating stock characters. It just seems that some are valuing the trope more for the mysterious sexuality than what is says about the woman. If a character could be created that used this trope to push back against gender attitudes it could be interesting.

[Panda]

 

So, if you want the raw character type, TVTropes outlines the concept.

 

There's a problem here in that the femme fatale is a specific archetype from Film Noir which is a style heavy genre yet also an obscure one. The real Film Noirs will play with and defy their conventions while you also get a heap of imitators which play off the popular idea of what a Noir is, because it's cool.

 

I think the core thing is the femme fatale's relationship to the protagonist, she's the flame to the protagonist's moth. It's about falling in love, and knowing that it's going to hurt, and maybe not caring about how much it'll hurt. Beyond that there are a number of stylistic things (a smokey, dangerous, beautiful, intelligent, independent woman) which I think is more what's actually being asked for.

 

Taken from there major thing seem to be deceitfulness and manupulating protagonist in order to reach her own goals. I do think that in order to make good game LI however the trope would need to be strech a little in terms of making character more likeable ^^; Though I guess there is tropes for that too, falling in love with protagonist and turning new leaf and so on.

[PhroXenGold]

To be fair, a good femme fatale isn't meant to be likable. She's meant to be irresistable.

[maia0407]

The butt-cam was awkward, I agree. However, I think we've complained about it enough for Bioware to get the message. Besides, let's not deny that Bioware has done plenty to appease the female fans as well (e.g. Kaidan butt-cam in ME3). 

 

Like I said, my main problem with some feminists who bring up physically attractive female characters as sex objects, is that they forget about any other aspect of her character. The fact that she is sexually objectified is the only thing that seems to matter to them. I believe it's only problematic when female characters exist for the sole purpose of being attractive while being incredibly one-dimensional. Aside from the butt-cam, I haven't seen this happen in Bioware games. 

 

Anyways, I don't want to derail the thread too much, so if you'd like to continue, send me a PM.

lol, Kaidan's butt cam was funny. I guess the difference there was that you had to be flirting/romancing him to see it (if I remember correctly), the cam didn't interrupt his conversation, was only shown when he was walking away, and it wasn't as in your face.

 

ETA: I probably wouldn't have an objection to Miranda's butt cam if it was used only for a Shep that expressed an interest in romancing Miranda. As it was, everyone, even my Shep that considered herself more of a mentor/friend, had to leer at her butt. It hurt my roleplay feelings! It's natural to check out someone you find attractive but I didn't like being forced to check her out. Does that make sense?

 

Being physically attractive doesn't necessarily rise to the level of objectification. I think that's where some people get confused. It's when their assets are played up to the point that it detracts from their personality, if they were given one at all. And, I agree, Bioware has been great about giving women personality. I'd just like a bit more care in how they are positioned (Miranda's butt cam) and dressed sometimes (combat armor, no boob belts, etc). I'd also like to see some unattractive men and women. Sure, let's have nice looking people but let's balance it out with less attractive people as well.

[Grieving Natashina]

To be fair, a good femme fatale isn't meant to be likable. She's meant to be irresistable.

True, but someone can be approachable while still not being very likable.  Some of my favorite anti-heroes and villains have qualities like that.  It's a tricky thing to write well though.  

[daveliam]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I wonder how it would work.  If the idea is that it's a woman who uses her attractiveness/sexiness to manipulate the PC, then we immediately run into an issue where she would have to be an LI and that aspect of her character would have to be during the romance content because, otherwise, it wouldn't make much sense.  How would it work for a gay male or straight female PC?  But then the downside is that she'd have to have some kind of option for redemption or it would seriously mess up the romance for paragon PCs, right?  I mean, I guess it could work out, but it seems like it would be weird for a paragon PC to be manipulated by his/her femme fatale LI and then forgive her unless she 'gave up her ways', no?  I'm just struggling to see how it would work out in this game.  I think it would work much better in a game with a set PC (either straight/bisexual male or bisexual/lesbian female).

[SardaukarElite]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I wonder how it would work.  If the idea is that it's a woman who uses her attractiveness/sexiness to manipulate the PC, then we immediately run into an issue where she would have to be an LI and that aspect of her character would have to be during the romance content because, otherwise, it wouldn't make much sense.  How would it work for a gay male or straight female PC?

 

I think the answer to that is that you simply make her more than the trope. Say you have a semi-antagonistic character equivalent in role and power to the player character, if it makes sense they do the flirty femme fatale thing, and if it doesn't (or it isn't reciprocated) then they're still a capable major video game character doing video gamey things to foil / aid the player character.

 

Not that that's necessarily easy mind.

 

But then the downside is that she'd have to have some kind of option for redemption or it would seriously mess up the romance for paragon PCs, right?  I mean, I guess it could work out, but it seems like it would be weird for a paragon PC to be manipulated by his/her femme fatale LI and then forgive her unless she 'gave up her ways', no?  I'm just struggling to see how it would work out in this game.  I think it would work much better in a game with a set PC (either straight/bisexual male or bisexual/lesbian female).

 

Does a romance need to end well? Okay maybe it's more an Obsidian thing than a BioWare thing to let it end destructively but I think it could work.

[maia0407]

 

 

Does a romance need to end well? Okay maybe it's more an Obsidian thing than a BioWare thing to let it end destructively but I think it could work.

Bioware has Alistair, Anders, Jacob, Thane and Solas as examples of romances that didn't/potentially didn't end well.

[SardaukarElite]

Bioware has Alistair, Anders, Jacob, Thane and Solas as examples of romances that didn't/potentially didn't end well.

 

Yes, I forgot. Though I was thinking more along the lines of the romance itself being doomed than someone needing to leave for whatever reason (as I understand those at least).

[Grieving Natashina]

Yes, I forgot. Though I was thinking more along the lines of the romance itself being doomed than someone needing to leave for whatever reason (as I understand those at least).

I would argue that Anders was written as a doomed romance, as was Thane (barring rumors that I've heard that he was supposed to have a cure.)  Otherwise, I see where you're coming from.  Most of the LIs have left for decent reasons.

[daveliam]

I think the answer to that is that you simply make her more than the trope. Say you have a semi-antagonistic character equivalent in role and power to the player character, if it makes sense they do the flirty femme fatale thing, and if it doesn't (or it isn't reciprocated) then they're still a capable major video game character doing video gamey things to foil / aid the player character.

 

Not that that's necessarily easy mind.

 

For sure.  Just seems like people are dead set on a very literal interpretation of femme fatale.  Any perceived deviation from the stock trope has been dismissed, so I was working within that frame.  I'm always up for subverting tropes, personally.  Homme fatale, anyone?

 

Does a romance need to end well? Okay maybe it's more an Obsidian thing than a BioWare thing to let it end destructively but I think it could work.

 

Not for me, but many people lose their **** when their preferred LI's romance arc doesn't end well.  Particularly when there's the idea that the LI has done the PC wrong (look at Jacob's reception).  I personally am okay with it.

[maia0407]

Yes, I forgot. Though I was thinking more along the lines of the romance itself being doomed than someone needing to leave for whatever reason (as I understand those at least).

Got it. I agree with you though; if the character is presented as having more to her than just a femme fatale when dealing with my romantically uninterested protag, she could work. My protag won't fall for her irresistible sex appeal as she's not attracted to women but would enjoy befriending/rivaling a woman that showed a different  manipulative side to her.