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[Grieving Natashina]

Isnt a femme fatale a villain trope? It's also usually tied up with weird sexual morality (she is a villainous character in contrast to a "purer" heroine ).

You can have the "Black Widow" types, like Morinth.  However, there is also those like Mata Hari, who could be considered a Femme Fatale, but she was (depending upon your point of view) a more or less "good guy."  I think there is room for that and so far, I haven't seen that in a BioWare game.  

 

My personal pick is someone with a personality like Kasumi, but with the seductive qualities of Mornith (er, within limits.)  I like the idea that they are a double agent, but that it's the villain that is mostly kept in the dark, not the player.  My feelings about combat armor aside, this would be a perfect fit for someone with very slinky and clingy clothes on the ship.  Someone utterly comfortable in her own skin, sexual, willing to kill, but not a psycho wanton killer.  Someone unashamed of sex and isn't afraid to use sex to get what she wants, but only as a last resort. 

 

Oh and not an Asari.  I've mentioned before that I actually like the race, but I'd rather see the engineer/scientists/scholars among the race and less characters with a focus on sexuality.    My vote is on a blonde human lady.  Thanks to Steelcan and a few others, I'm still wanting a bisexual LI that looks like Natalie Dormer.  Voiced by her too.  

 

Liberal feminist here.  Far as I can tell, this is not what the OP intended and I know that this has already gotten a little ugly.  If anyone feels someone is baiting them, don't rise to it.  This is a pretty good topic idea, so let's not get too sidetracked.  There is a better time/thread for this.  If someone feels that strongly about feminism/backlash from radical feminism, start a new thread and leave the OP alone please.

[daveliam]

Oh and not an Asari.  I've mentioned before that I actually like the race, but I'd rather see the engineer/scientists/scholars among the race and less characters with a focus on sexuality.    My vote is on a blonde human lady.  Thanks to Steelcan and a few others, I'm still wanting a bisexual LI that looks like Natalie Dormer.  Voiced by her too.  

 

Natalie Dormer will rue the day that she agreed to voice a video game version of Margaery Tyrell!  Now the BSN won't stop until we get a romanceable version of her! 

[SnakeCode]

@Natashina- If you're referring to me I didn't actually bring it up. I am always going to defend myself if someone implies or flat out claims i'm against equality though.

[Grieving Natashina]

@Natashina- If you're referring to me I didn't actually bring it up. I am always going to defend myself if someone implies or flat out claims i'm against equality though.

I understand, but I'm also asking some of the feminists to drop it as well.  No one is really looking all that pretty, and this is a pretty good idea for a thread.  It would be a shame to see it locked due to bickering leading to full scale fighting.  It's a conversation that's worth having, but it really needs it's own thread.

 

We can discuss this archetype and be cool about it.  

[Yaroub]

OP wasn't wrong about femme fatale description and provided two examples, it needn't to get ugly.

 

 

 

BioWare, can we get a vixen type girl for a squadmate? I have a weakness for the intelligent, deadly, attractive girls, with long legs, and long hair -- preferably red or black. I do not want the traditional female, the innocent girl, or the perfect paragon; I want the vixen, the ice queen, the girl who really beautiful and deadly simultaneously. I already know there is going to be romance, so let me have some fun. Think Morrigan from Dragon Age or Miranda Lawson from the eariler Mass Effect's. 

 

 

 

Yes, bioware this must be, both Morrigan and Miranda were freaking awesome, the best in the two franchises.

[The Heretic of Time]

Natashina I wish more feminists were like you. Take that as you will.

[N7Jamaican]

I want a mix of Kasumi and Michonne (from the Walking Dead) that looks like Rihanna.

[The Heretic of Time]

@Natashina- If you're referring to me I didn't actually bring it up. I am always going to defend myself if someone implies or flat out claims i'm against equality though.

 

Yeah I never understood this whole "you're either with us or against us" mentality that most of these rad-fems seem to have. They really can't grasp that it's entirely possible to be pro-equality but anti-feminism.

[Grieving Natashina]

Natashina I wish more feminists were like you. Take that as you will.

Thanks, but I think you've had a lot of poor luck with running into radical feminists.  This is one of the big reasons why I stay away from stuff like Tumblr.  

 

What's funny is that I have zero issues speaking my mind about sexism (not just against women either,) idealization of men (which is leading to "pleasant" things like eating disorders on the rise even among straight male teens,) sexualization of women in media, better female characters, ect ect.  However, I know when to pick my battles, and when to just take a topic at face value.  Someone requesting a cool character archetype is not that battle.  

 

Plus, I've mentioned before that I think a lady sex positive character is more than due to show up.  Meaning that they enjoy sex, but it isn't the only defining characteristic of their personality.  In my opinion, the only truly sex positive character in a BW game so far has been Isabela (ignoring the STD joke.)  I'd like to see that again, only with this archetype that the OP suggested.

[daveliam]

Unfortunately, too many people are looking for fights in this thread.  It's a shame, really.  From the snarky low-blows that started this whole feminism discussion to the hypersensitive overreactions that people had to the fact that people are still giving pot-shots at feminism even after people are actively trying to calm it down.

 

Anyway, for what it's worth, I'd be totally fine with this request.  I'm not dying to see it, but I'd support it.  Especially if Natalie Dormer showed up..... 

[DaemionMoadrin]

OP wasn't wrong about femme fatale description and provided two examples, it needn't to get ugly.

 

 

 

Yes, bioware this must be, both Morrigan and Miranda were freaking awesome, the best in the two franchises.

 

Actually, he was and neither of the two examples fit the "femme fatale" trope.

 

https://en.wikipedia...ki/Femme_fatale

http://tvtropes.org/...ain/FemmeFatale

 

(Do people even read threads or just post something after reading the OP?)

[Grieving Natashina]

 

Unfortunately, too many people are looking for fights in this thread.  It's a shame, really.  From the snarky low-blows that started this whole feminism discussion to the hypersensitive overreactions that people had to the fact that people are still giving pot-shots at feminism even after people are actively trying to calm it down.

 

Anyway, for what it's worth, I'd be totally fine with this request.  I'm not dying to see it, but I'd support it.  Especially if Natalie Dormer showed up.....  

 

 

I know you're gay, but you've got a total platonic crush on Natalie Dormer.  

 

I really blame Steelcan for this.  A man after my own heart.  

[Yaroub]

Actually, he was and neither of the two examples fit the "femme fatale" trope.

 

https://en.wikipedia...ki/Femme_fatale

http://tvtropes.org/...ain/FemmeFatale

 

(Do people even read threads or just post something after reading the OP?)

 

I know what a femme fatale is, and i actually read the wiki page before i posted.

 

What is your point?

[The Heretic of Time]

Thanks, but I think you've had a lot of poor luck with running into radical feminists.  This is one of the big reasons why I stay away from stuff like Tumblr.  

 

What's funny is that I have zero issues speaking my mind about sexism (not just against women either,) idealization of men (which is leading to "pleasant" things like eating disorders on the rise even among straight male teens,) sexualization of women in media, better female characters, ect ect.  However, I know when to pick my battles, and when to just take a topic at face value.  Someone requesting a character archetype is not that battle.  

 

Plus, I've mentioned before that I think a lady sex positive character is more than due to show up.  Meaning that they enjoy sex, but it isn't the only defining characteristic of their personality.  In my opinion, the only truly sex positive character in a BW game so far has been Isabela (ignoring the STD joke.)  I'd like to see that again, only with this archetype that the OP suggested.

 

What is even more funny is that I might very well agree with you on the majority of these topics. The only thing I'm very much against is the whole "this is problematic, it needs to be changed" -narrative that seems to be pushed into the videogame industry lately by radical feminists such as Anita Sarkeesian and others. Or the whole idea that the videogame industry is supposedly a boys club dominated by straight white men who try to keep women or minorities out of it. That's just completely ridiculous and I will always speak up whenever I see someone spouting nonsense like that.

 

I'm very much a "live and let live" type of guy. Just let me enjoy my damn videogames and I will let you enjoy yours. If you don't like the games I play, then just don't play them and if you want to see something changed then do it yourself, don't demand others to do it for you. (Note that I'm not addressing you directly here, I'm not saying you're doing this because you aren't and that's why I like you.)

[daveliam]

I know you're gay, but you've got a total platonic crush on Natalie Dormer.  

 

I really blame Steelcan for this.  A man after my own heart.  

 

 

I just might. 

[Dobbysaurus]

This femme fatale better have big boobs too.

[Grieving Natashina]

I'm very much a "live and let live" type of guy. Just let me enjoy my damn videogames and I will let you enjoy yours. If you don't like the games I play, then just don't play them and if you want to see something changed then do it yourself, don't demand others to do it for you. (Note that I'm not addressing you directly here, I'm not saying you're doing this because you aren't and that's why I like you.)

I figured that "you" was a general statement.  The last thing I want to say on this topic before I see what the OP thinks of my idea:

 

No one really likes extremists.  Also, they tend to be the loudest and the biggest minority, so they like to drown everyone else out.  Some of those extremists don't have as much power as people think.  I don't think Doom 4 is going to suddenly change to a cuddly Care Bear game because a few radicals are getting whiny and ending up on the news.  Keep voting with your wallet on the games you like, and try to let what the extremists say wash over you.  They make me angry and frustrated as well, but they aren't worth the time and energy.  

 

Game companies are going to do whatever they really want.  Our pull as players (or as critics) is not as strong as people like to think.  Game developers do listen sometimes, as evidenced with the ME3 EC endings.  However, they are going to keep truckin' along, and making the games they want to make.  Most companies aren't going to jump on any sort of bandwagon of extremism, due to not wanting to effect their bottom line (i.e royally alienating their fanbases far beyond ME3 pre-EC ever could.)  

 

This is why despite some of the changes regarding conversations around feminism/sexism, Rockstar is still making the same games they always did.  We still have MKX (which the extremists were oddly silent about,) we still have GTA in all it's over-the-top glory, and Saints Row, and many more out there.  I wouldn't be too worried about what an impact few over-educated, well-meaning yet extreme people might have on the gaming industry.

 

I just might. 

 

This femme fatale better have big boobs too.

I prefer long legs and butts, myself.  I'd like to see a Femme Fatale that wasn't busty, to be honest.  Mainly for variety sake, and to see different body types for the ladies in ME.

[S.W.]

I'm 100% on board with this.

 

I'd also agree that Morrigan and Miranda don't entirely fit the trope - Miranda, in particular, whilst beautiful, never really discussed her sexuality or was shown happily being very sexual. Tbh, Miranda's ice queen act died after the first mission, which I always felt was a shame - antagonistic companions make for a fun change of pace and often present interesting friendships.

 

I'd agree that Morinth really only fit the trope. And I loved Morinth. I'd kill for her to have more dialogue in game. How did she escape? How did she learn to fight? Why is she so compelled to sleep with others? Is it addictive? What did she mean by 'this is the genetic destiny of the asari' - is Ardat-Yakshi-ism an example of something that comes from asari methods of reproduction involving such limited methods of scrambling genes? Does it lead to more powerful biotic abilities? (God, I wish she'd turned up in person for the ME3 quest, would have loved to see that).

 

+++ on board with Natalie Dormer.

 

Yeah I never understood this whole "you're either with us or against us" mentality that most of these rad-fems seem to have. They really can't grasp that it's entirely possible to be pro-equality but anti-feminism.

 

From experience (might be outing myself as a crazy feminist here, but what the hell, I chaired my college feminist society for half a year): question of semantics, really. Some people define feminism as being about equality (being anti-feminist but pro-equality therefore, logically, makes no sense under this definition). Some people define it as being anti-patriarchy. Some people define it as being about revolution. Some people define it in terms of a couple of key issues or rights - wages, abortion, etc. etc. etc. etc. it goes on and on.

 

In my experience, feminism is a broad church and feminists debate amongst themselves all the time. It's not a hive mind. It's... well, it's like the academic community I suppose, in that it's not just a list of doctrines but something more argumentative and constructive. They disagree with each other. They sometimes dislike each other. Sometimes people are just plain wrong and keep talking anyway. Keep that in mind next time you roll your eyes at a post on tumblr.

[Grieving Natashina]

I'm 100% on board with this.

 

I'd also agree that Morrigan and Miranda don't entirely fit the trope - Miranda, in particular, whilst beautiful, never really discussed her sexuality or was shown happily being very sexual. Tbh, Miranda's ice queen act died after the first mission, which I always felt was a shame - antagonistic companions make for a fun change of pace and often present interesting friendships.

 

I'd agree that Morinth really only fit the trope. And I loved Morinth. I'd kill for her to have more dialogue in game. How did she escape? How did she learn to fight? Why is she so compelled to sleep with others? Is it addictive? What did she mean by 'this is the genetic destiny of the asari' - is Ardat-Yakshi-ism an example of something that comes from asari methods of reproduction involving such limited methods of scrambling genes? Does it lead to more powerful biotic abilities? (God, I wish she'd turned up in person for the ME3 quest, would have loved to see that).

 

+++ on board with Natalie Dormer.

 

 

From experience (might be outing myself as a crazy feminist here, but what the hell, I chaired my college feminist society for half a year): question of semantics, really. Some people define feminism as being about equality (being anti-feminist but pro-equality therefore, logically, makes no sense under this definition). Some people define it as being anti-patriarchy. Some people define it as being about revolution. Some people define it in terms of a couple of key issues or rights - wages, abortion, etc. etc. etc. etc. it goes on and on.

 

In my experience, feminism is a broad church and feminists debate amongst themselves all the time. It's not a hive mind. It's... well, it's like the academic community I suppose, in that it's not just a list of doctrines but something more argumentative and constructive. They disagree with each other. They sometimes dislike each other. Take that in mind next time you roll your eyes at a post on tumblr.

I'm out of likes, but you're a person after my own heart.  Call this an honorary like:

 

Spoiler

[Grieving Natashina]

I've got a different point of view.  I liked characters like Kasumi and Isabela.  They were fun, upbeat and brutally honest about the situation.  A Femme Fatale doesn't have to be an Ice Queen.  I'd like to have someone fun that had some real maturity (sorry, Sera is too young-acting,) sex positive, and that was also a capable killer.  I have no problem with the Ice Queen archetype appearing in ME:A, but I'd rather not have them be that and a Femme Fatale.

 

 

I want a mix of Kasumi and Michonne (from the Walking Dead) that looks like Rihanna.

Oh and this.  

[The Heretic of Time]

In my experience, feminism is a broad church and feminists debate amongst themselves all the time. It's not a hive mind. It's... well, it's like the academic community I suppose, in that it's not just a list of doctrines but something more argumentative and constructive. They disagree with each other. They sometimes dislike each other. Take that in mind next time you roll your eyes at a post on tumblr.

 

I know this. That's why I don't hate all feminists, just most of them.

 

I definitely don't see feminism being about equality though. It never was. People who think it is really need to look up the definition of feminism and take a closer look at what role feminism has played in the past and what role it has now. Feminism is by definition a women's rights movement. For the longest time feminists were fighting to give women equal rights to men. Women have that now (and more), which is why many people no longer identify themselves as feminists.

 

But some women still identify themselves as feminsts even today, for a bunch of different reasons, none of them very good reasons.
Some still believe that women still don't have equal rights (which is not true), some have subscribed to the Bell Hook's version of feminism (which is eerily close to a cult), some are fighting against this imaginary boogeyman named "the patriarchy" and others want to get free privileges handed to them without actually having to work for it.
And some are just narcissistic authoritarian b*tches.

And then finally there are people like Anita Sarkeesian who are in it for financial gain and happily exploit the people who are gullible enough to buy into their crap.

 

Anyway, it is very rare to walk into a reasonable feminist these days, most of them are just ranting tumblr slacktivists, especially the younger ones. The few reasonable feminists are often older women, like Christina Hoff Sommers.

[DaemionMoadrin]

I know what a femme fatale is, and i actually read the wiki page before i posted.

 

What is your point?

 

As I have written before (several times), neither Morrigan nor Miranda are femme fatales. I mean, seriously, at which point in the games are they using seduction or sex to further their goals? The Dark Ritual? Eh... no. Morrigan is surprisingly honest about it and tries to convince you with logic and an appeal to your friendship/relationship.

Miranda never tries to seduce anyone, in fact she's complaining about her perfect body far too much which implies that she's not comfortable with it. Oh, and the Shadow Broker dossiers show that she treats sex as a transaction with no emotions whatsoever.

 

In short: They don't fit the descriptions.

 

To my knowledge we never had a femme fatale in BioWare games (with the possible exception of Morinth).

[DaemionMoadrin]

I know this. That's why I don't hate all feminists, just most of them.

 

I definitely don't see feminism being about equality though. It never was. People who think it is really need to look up the definition of feminism and take a closer look at what role feminism has played in the past and what role it has now. Feminism is by definition a women's rights movement. For the longest time feminists were fighting to give women equal rights to men. Women have that now (and more), which is why many people no longer identify themselves as feminists.

 

But some women still identify themselves as feminsts even today, for a bunch of different reasons, none of them very good reasons.
Some still believe that women still don't have equal rights (which is not true), some have subscribed to the Bell Hook's version of feminism (which is eerily close to a cult), some are fighting against this imaginary boogeyman named "the patriarchy" and others want to get free privileges handed to them without actually having to work for it.
And some are just narcissistic authoritarian b*tches.

And then finally there are people like Anita Sarkeesian who are in it for financial gain and happily exploit the people who are gullible enough to buy into their crap.

 

Anyway, it is very rare to walk into a reasonable feminist these days, most of them are just ranting tumblr slacktivists, especially the younger ones. The few reasonable feminists are often older women, like Christina Hoff Sommers.

 

I think "hate" is a pretty strong word to use for people you don't even know.

 

Women and men don't have equal rights yet. There's imbalance on both sides, good and bad. You could say that overall both sides are equally fucked but I don't know if that would be very constructive.

 

The fact that you say that women have equal rights and that women identifying as feminists don't have very good reasons kind of contradicts your earlier posts.

[Grieving Natashina]

I just realized that some folks might not known who my idea was for a Femme Fatale.  So this is Natalie Dormer:

 

Spoiler

Spoiler