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Ending "waves" and why synthesis is garbage.


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#26
Coyotebay

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Simply put, I very highly doubt that you can. I might, but that's besides the question.

 

Umm...Anyone can.  It's not hard at all.  If you can't imagine other options to the Catalyst's ridiculous solution, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

And to be frank, the Reapers did have other notional conceptions on what to do about maintaining order and preserving organic beings while facilitating peace with synthetics. The Catalyst is aware 2 such methods right off the bat: Control and Synthesis, though I believe that it feels control is an option that exists outside of its own mandate, and is thus undesirable from a hardware standpoint. Synthesis was simply not possible without a willing organic. I won't go into the details on that one though. It doesn't make a lot of sense due to the writing, but essentially, the premise is that the Reapers are willing to achieve a more effective means of preserving and enforcing their mandate, but that until the existence of Shepard and Crucible simultaneously, such a solution was not possible, nor was it seen as one.

 

No, millions of years later isn't "right off the bat".  And with all the Catalyst's brain power, the fact that it didn't have the insight to understand why its "solution" was a colossal fail speaks volumes.  It speaks of organics being ready or advanced enough to move past all this Reaper harvesting stuff to something better, well if it wasn't having the Reapers commit genocide on them all the time, they would have been ready a long time ago.

 

Also, you failed to define 'better' and 'enlightened'. Keep in mind that relativism and subjectivity of these terms aside, there is a necessary meaning behind these words, neither of which you identified. As well, rationalization is the key to understanding. Emotive disgust inhibits that. By labeling the Reapers as 'monsters' and refusing to understand (and thus undermine, if necessary), you're creating a false dichotomy based around personal incredulity and disgust as a non-logical and irrational human.

 

Thank you Mr. Spock.  Yes, they're monsters.  And that is an objective label, not an irrational one.  They define themselves by their actions.  They commit genocide and their method of elminating organic civilizations is to do it in the most horrific and terrifying way possible.  They do not engage in this task in a coldly logical way, but clearly demonstrate hatred and malevolence.  If that shouldn't be the case, then chalk it up to bad or cheesy writing.  They look scary, they are given evil personas.  And it's obviously more entertaining to have people getting overrun by zombies than to have the Reapers eliminate species in a more clinical and boring way.  That was the intent of the writers, to make them monstrous, so they do not fit into your interpretation of them.  If the writers had written them in a more coldly rational way, then your argument would stand up better.

 

Bluntly put, the Reapers and the Catalyst are on a higher scale intellectually and rationally from you. Their perspective (and thus their means) are much more objective, and they are of course aware that there are more efficient solutions (namely synthesis) to their mandate that lie beyond their means of capability. Which isn't to say that they're dumb. It would be the equivalent of knowing that a workable quantum law of gravity exists within the singularity of a black hole, but that it's completely impossible for us to ever find or create a solution for such. The Reapers had a theoretical solution to their issue, but one that was not practical or possible until spontaneous events put humanity in a position to be 'ready' for synthesis (the Tech singularity).

 

No, the Reapers simply follow orders, and it is clearly beyond them to do anything differently than their original instructions.  The Catalyst is completely lacking in foresight and any intrisic understanding of the species, organic and synthetic, it has been eliminating.  You also leave out the key failing point of the whole Catalyst/Reaper solution, that it is based on the faulty assumption that synthetics always destroy organics.  To believe that, you have to believe in a deterministic universe, where you get the same out come a million out of a million times.  And in the current galaxy the writers have created, not only is there just a single advanced synthetic race, the Geth, but it is possible for organics to destroy them.  So that nixes the Catalyst's argument right there.  And even if the catalyst was right, that doesn't mean the end of organic life in the galaxy, it means the end of organic civilizations...which the Reapers destroy anyway.  So the end result is identical.  The Reapers serve no logical purpose, they just replace one annihilation with another.  The data they collect on all these civilzations benefits no one, as they don't share it and never will share it.  Anyone who becomes advanced enough to draw the Reapers' attention is summarily destroyed.  So they are archiving all this information for nothing, it just sits with them in dark space until they wake up to go kill and harvest again.  The Reapers are nothing more than nihilism at its most logical extreme.  And the synthesis "solution"is even worse.  At least under the current plan, organic life continues.  With syntheis, all organic life is forever compromised.

 

Sorry, the Catalyst and the Reapers are not on some "higher scale" rationally or intellectually, and you have said nothing which proves this.  They are simply far more advanced technologically.  The Reapers in particular have never deomnstrated any degree of wisdom, insight, or enlightenment.  You can fault the writing on that.  They are cartoon villains, crude antagonists and nothing more.  I have seen far, FAR better villains in various mediums of fiction where the villain actually was insightful, enlightened, even wise, aware of their own flaws, and understanding of the opposing position...they simply just saw things differently.  But the Reapers are nothing more than the equivalent of a nation claiming moral, rational, or intellectual superiority simply because they have the most atom bombs.

 

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#27
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First things first, there's a quote button to use so we don't get such a dreadful formatting issue here. Learn it, live it, love it.

 

 

Anyway, first paragraph: 

 

 

 

Umm...Anyone can.  It's not hard at all.  If you can't imagine other options to the Catalyst's ridiculous solution, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

That's not true. You'll have to actually give me a definitive example of a greater solution than either the Reapers themselves or Control and Synthesis that actually solve the Catalyst's mandate. 

 

If you don't believe that it has a valid mandate, then the writers would like to speak with you. You're wrong after all.

 

I don't believe that you can honestly create or find a greater solution than what has already been presented, and I am prepared to back that up once you try to prove otherwise.

 

The only other solution to the Harvest (the Reapers), Synthesis, or Control, is to not create any kind of synthetic intelligence for the remainder of galactic civilization, however long that time period lasts.

 

Otherwise, there are no other long-term solutions that permanently solve the problem of organic and synthetic life.

 

 

 

No, millions of years later isn't "right off the bat".  And with all the Catalyst's brain power, the fact that it didn't have the insight to understand why its "solution" was a colossal fail speaks volumes.  It speaks of organics being ready or advanced enough to move past all this Reaper harvesting stuff to something better, well if it wasn't having the Reapers commit genocide on them all the time, they would have been ready a long time ago.

 

On what basis are you deciding that millions of years later is the actual application period for the Catalyst? You seem to be pointing to something and saying that it's true/not true and not giving a reason for it. As well, you're not accounting for the amount of time the Catalyst has to wait before it can test its own theory each cycle. If it comes up with any given number of solutions with different parameters that alternate variables each cycle, it could wait potentially infinite amounts of time before it achieves the right concoction within time to implement a solution. 

 

How is the Catalyst's solution a 'colossal fail'? Because you want it to be or are emotionally and psychologically repugnant of the idea? 

 

Said organics were also creating synthetics that would have wiped out the organics had the Reapers and the Catalyst not intervened. Such organics would never be ready, as if the Catalyst waited too long or ignored its mandate, synthetics would advance to a point beyond the scope of organic ability to interface or synchronize with (as well as be in conflict with the organics in a perpetually escalating station where they would overwhelm and annihilate them). As well, for many a cycle there was no Crucible for the organics to use to enact some kind of synthesis or singularity to prove their completion.

 

Simply put, it's not the Catalyst deciding on when the organics are ready, it's they, the organics themselves, that are unconsciously determining whether or not they have achieved such a point.

 

 

 

Thank you Mr. Spock.  Yes, they're monsters.  And that is an objective label, not an irrational one.  They define themselves by their actions.  They commit genocide and their method of elminating organic civilizations is to do it in the most horrific and terrifying way possible.  They do not engage in this task in a coldly logical way, but clearly demonstrate hatred and malevolence.  If that shouldn't be the case, then chalk it up to bad or cheesy writing.  They look scary, they are given evil personas.  And it's obviously more entertaining to have people getting overrun by zombies than to have the Reapers eliminate species in a more clinical and boring way.  That was the intent of the writers, to make them monstrous, so they do not fit into your interpretation of them.  If the writers had written them in a more coldly rational way, then your argument would stand up better.

 

I see no need for insults Doctor McCoy. 

 

Incorrect, categorically and fundamentally. If you label this an objective fact, then you are prepared to defend how you label them as monsters, and how your perspective is an objective position. And if you do, you must realize that you're position is incorrect. It is entirely, irrational. There is nothing of objective value in your statement whatsoever. Facetious statement: Have you no regard for relativism? Or difference? Or logic?

 

The Reapers define themselves via action? Then you'll know that they define themselves as the wall of order, stemming the tide of chaos and imposing their will on an entropy laden galaxy. You'll know that the Leviathans labeled them as errant progeny fulfilling a purpose laid about by their own perspective on the cosmos.

 

They commit genocide, yes. This is not objectively bad. It is a statement ladled with is/ought deontological ideology, one I do not share as a subjectivist and as a relativist. 

 

As well, there is a logical reason for being such; it breaks the will of resistance and rebellion against their ranks. It psychologically destroys their enemy. To you, a victim of such slaughter, it might seem like wanton malice, but it is actually a practical tactic. It's a form of psychological warfare, a form of the art of war that the Reapers are masters of. We in the United States military have a term for it: "Shock and Awe". To break down and terrorize the enemy into submission, thus negating or eliminating resistance and rebellion. To call it 'evil' and 'illogical' is to demonstrate a lack of awareness in the practical application of the technique.

 

Never once did I get any implication that the Reapers hate or despise any organic species. Any and all context we get is either from speculative organics (and their constructs, such as Vigil), a small number of Reapers such as Sovereign, which, despite demonstrating indifference and apathy to organic life and piping its own greatness never overtly states that it 'hate's' organics, or the Catalyst itself, a being largely alien and bizarre enough for standard definition of 'evil' and 'hate' to not apply. 

 

That they look scary is purely subjective in nature. Afterall, they're based on the aquatic creatures that their forerunners were, the Leviathan race. Biology and evolution doesn't dictate what is scary or not. I know people who are afraid of spiders and snakes. Because they look scary to those people, does that make those creatures evil? I think not, unless you don't hold to conventional rationality. That the Reapers look scary is not correlated to a question of evil about them. 

 

As for evil persona's, I entirely disagree. Grandiose, boisterous, and thunderous, but not evil. They speak on their actions. They don't twirl their mustaches and go 'muahahaha' as they assault organic society. 

 

The thing is, they're not monstrous because they decided to be or are; they are because of their targets point of view. This is entirely their purpose. They aren't intrinsically or inherently evil, as I've stated, and that, in the ending, is reflected when we get our share of information on them and their mandate. To be frank, they are clinical and boring. Read the codex entries on them, and listen to how they are described. Patient, calculating, methodical, clinical. They take their time, attack worlds one by one, divide and conquer, and do what they need as they need to. You may think they act differently, but as a target of them, you're of course going to have a skewed perspective as a potential victim.

 

This is not something that you can deductively argue. The Reapers are repeatedly described in the way I said they were, by the very writers you claim I am contradicting. In short, my logic is fine. Your interpretation of it is in error. Adjust.

 

 

 

No, the Reapers simply follow orders, and it is clearly beyond them to do anything differently than their original instructions.  The Catalyst is completely lacking in foresight and any intrisic understanding of the species, organic and synthetic, it has been eliminating.  You also leave out the key failing point of the whole Catalyst/Reaper solution, that it is based on the faulty assumption that synthetics always destroy organics.  To believe that, you have to believe in a deterministic universe, where you get the same out come a million out of a million times.  And in the current galaxy the writers have created, not only is there just a single advanced synthetic race, the Geth, but it is possible for organics to destroy them.  So that nixes the Catalyst's argument right there.  And even if the catalyst was right, that doesn't mean the end of organic life in the galaxy, it means the end of organic civilizations...which the Reapers destroy anyway.  So the end result is identical.  The Reapers serve no logical purpose, they just replace one annihilation with another.  The data they collect on all these civilzations benefits no one, as they don't share it and never will share it.  Anyone who becomes advanced enough to draw the Reapers' attention is summarily destroyed.  So they are archiving all this information for nothing, it just sits with them in dark space until they wake up to go kill and harvest again.  The Reapers are nothing more than nihilism at its most logical extreme.  And the synthesis "solution"is even worse.  At least under the current plan, organic life continues.  With syntheis, all organic life is forever compromised.

 

They follow orders in the way in that they are a collective unity of minds focusing on the mandate given by the Catalyst, separate in identity, yet singular in purpose. Otherwise, they have no reason to deviate from their original instructions: they have no other viable means of achieving their goal of preserving galactic races and ensuring galactic stability other than their cycle. Obviously, this is changed in the ending, but it is not through the participation of the Reapers, lest you choose synthesis or control (in which case, your dead wrong as the Reapers are shown... changing and deviating from their initial instructions  :o)

 

This is a claim about the nature of the Catalyst, based on emotional response rather than reasoning, and it is a claim not supported by the in-game portrayal of the Catalyst. It has foresight. That is why the cycles exist, and that is why it idealizes synthesis as the ultimate completion of its mandate. It has involved and intrinsic understanding of each race. That does not mean that it is compliant or subject to such a race's ideology of morality or ethics. Those ideologies are secondary to practical and rational considerations about the furthering of organic/synthetic relations and ultimate preservation of such species via Reaper.

 

This is not a faulty assumption. This is stated to be fact within game, and there is no evidence that proves otherwise, up to and including the Geth and EDI. The premise is that once synthetics get rolling, they don't stop, and continue to exponentially grow at rates faster than any organic could ever hope to match. While this alone is not indicative or presumptuous of conflict, any that were to break out would be entirely one-sided in favor of the synthetics. This is what happened with the Reapers themselves and the Leviathan afterall, even if the Catalyst realized that this was an inevitable outcome.

 

But yes, I do believe that this is a deterministic universe. The outcome is inevitable, and it is one to be avoided. Especially when you increase time scales to limitless periods with no set end-period. The Geth are one race, but they have already come into conflict with organics, on several occasions. Peace with them does not preclude the possibility of further war and conflict in the future. The Organics destroying them is only indicative of the fact that the Geth were not yet sophisticated or capable enough of defeating organics. That does not nix the Catalysts argument, only shows that the organics were able to stomp out the synthetics before they became too advanced and powerful to handle. Given enough time, this may not be the same in the future. You're trying to argue that rolling a die every time and having a 50/50 odd is better than not rolling any die at all and eliminating a need to gamble altogether, no matter which solution you choose.

 

The Catalyst is right, and, yes, it does mean the end of organic civilizations. Permanently. The synthetics need only win once. The Reapers at least allow new societies to grow and prosper before resetting the board. Another synthetic race would wipe the board once, and then burn it. This is contrary to the Catalyst's agenda. It wishes to prevent permanent chaos, not to enable total survival for everyone and everything. Synthetics coming on top once is all it takes for the board to be destroyed. So no, the end result is not identical. The Reapers are preventing the permanent destruction of all organic civilization by destroying the civilizations that rise in a specific time period.

 

As for the data they collect, the purpose is not to share the information on each civilization, the purpose is to preserve it and ensure that it survives. Now, you can argue that this is in functional perpetuity, but that would still belie the fact that such information would not be lost period. As well, the existence of both Synthesis and Control completely contradicts your theory, where the Reapers do in fact share their knowledge once their agenda and goal has been fulfilled. 

 

Anyone drawing the Reapers attention is destroyed. Yes. Why? Because they pose a significant risk of creating synthetic intelligence that could (and given time and resources, would) eliminate organic civilization in permanence. So there is indeed a logical reason for what the Reapers do. They're better than the alternative.

 

I have no idea where or why you're drawing nihilism into this conversation at all. I can only conclude that you're not using it correctly, to which I quote the memorable Mandy Patinikin in 'The Princess Bride': "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

 

And I'll have to ask how Synthesis is a terrible alternative solution. I don't see how that viewpoint makes sense? How is all life being 'compromised'? How is that a bad thing? On what basis are you judging the status quo to be superior to the possibility of transcendence, connection, immortality, and evolution, on progress? Keep in mind the consequences of the naturalistic fallacy here: to say that it would wreck your argument would be a fallacy fallacy, but to not state its effect on your psychology would undermine my goal of showing you how alienating your premise and principles are.

 

 

 

Sorry, the Catalyst and the Reapers are not on some "higher scale" rationally or intellectually, and you have said nothing which proves this.  They are simply far more advanced technologically.  The Reapers in particular have never deomnstrated any degree of wisdom, insight, or enlightenment.  You can fault the writing on that.  They are cartoon villains, crude antagonists and nothing more.  I have seen far, FAR better villains in various mediums of fiction where the villain actually was insightful, enlightened, even wise, aware of their own flaws, and understanding of the opposing position...they simply just saw things differently.  But the Reapers are nothing more than the equivalent of a nation claiming moral, rational, or intellectual superiority simply because they have the most atom bombs

 

They are indeed on a higher scale of rationality and intellect. They operate on sheer data gathering and core logical processing, unclouded and unfettered from emotion and feeling. As synthetic intelligence, or machines with the ability to think, they are able to be intellectually superior to our own neurological and chemical based biology, being infinitely faster and capable of crunching numbers and physics on much higher scales than we can. They are able to input data and variables into any equation and calculate conclusions and solutions at rates much faster and more powerful than our own. 

 

The very fact that they are much more advanced technologically proves this in fact. You have to be of a higher rationality and intellect to advance. To advance greater, faster, and higher, you need to have greater intellect and rationality. 

 

Otherwise, this statement is false. It comes more down to an opinion on your end of incredulity that the Reapers might have such position, given your predilection for demonizing them.

 

To call them cartoon villains is disingenuous to their position in the story, and to bring up alternative examples is a non sequiter to this discussion. What other villains have or do not have over the Reapers is not the topic of discussion here. It's an analysis of the Reapers and their nature, not a comparison and contrast with others franchises. On a note however, you are false. The Reapers can be seen as villains who simply have a different perspective. It's alien, it follows a blue and orange moral system unlike our own, and it has its own purpose that does make sense when willing to be vicarious enough to view it from its own position.


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#28
Goodmongo

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How does lift know what to target?  How does singularity know only to impact the bad guys?  It's a game that's how.

 

And for those saying the collectors were using synthesis maybe you need to read up about harvesting in the journal.  Two different things.  And if you bothered to even listen to the endings you'll learn that synthesis was a brand new option never before available.



#29
Batarian Master Race

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How does lift know what to target?  How does singularity know only to impact the bad guys?  It's a game that's how.

 

And for those saying the collectors were using synthesis maybe you need to read up about harvesting in the journal.  Two different things.  And if you bothered to even listen to the endings you'll learn that synthesis was a brand new option never before available.

 

Lift is actively directed by a thinking being. Singularity... well, yeah, that one makes less sense.



#30
Goodmongo

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The red, blue, green beams are actively programmed by the catalyst AI then.  Problem solved or at least it fits in with the rest of the game.

 

In a game a few days ago two husks were surrounding James.  I'm an adept and 'cast' throw in the general direction.  Having it break into two and both husks were swept away while James was safe.  Or take grenades.  There is no friendly fire in the game.  So I really don't see an issue where the beams from the crucible/catalyst know what to target.



#31
dorktainian

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you do realise there is a piece of tech / asset you aquire that actively targets reapers?

 

Look at the endings.

 

The crucible fires.

The relays are destroyed.

Systems are Isolated.

 

Easy pickings for the Reapers, unless you destroy them.

 

 

 

and yes.  Synthesis is garbage.



#32
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The red, blue, green beams are actively programmed by the catalyst AI then.  Problem solved or at least it fits in with the rest of the game.

 

In a game a few days ago two husks were surrounding James.  I'm an adept and 'cast' throw in the general direction.  Having it break into two and both husks were swept away while James was safe.  Or take grenades.  There is no friendly fire in the game.  So I really don't see an issue where the beams from the crucible/catalyst know what to target.

 

Gameplay/Story segregation. It exists for a reason.



#33
CrutchCricket

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God defending synthesis and the endings.... never thought I'd see the day.

 

You used to be cool, man.

 

 

Spoiler


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#34
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God defending synthesis and the endings.... never thought I'd see the day.

 

You used to be cool, man.

 

 

Spoiler

 

I might be exaggerating in some aspects, but this does reflect my views pretty well. Certainly not trolling. Same with the radical pro-human stance. Why do you always assume I'm trolling?

 

I support synthesis in its entirety. Granted, it's poorly written, and I think we ought to destroy first. It can't happen too fast (not that we're not ready, but I'm not done consolidating a power base yet). Use the Reaper technology to put humanity at the forefront, and create a Platonian/Socratic social construct and caste system, and base our own synthesis off of his ideologies on transcendence. 

 

As for the endings themselves, really the only issues I have are with the writing for it. It's not written well, but altogether, I like where BW was going with it, what their idea for it was. It needed less brainstorming and stronger narrative however. 

 

I can go into detail on that front if you like. It's true though, I used to dislike the endings immensely, but as time wore on, I took a more critical view of the themes and ideas presented by the endings, and I did my best to drop emotive reasoning and turned to rationalism. I researched other topics in philosophy, technology, and political theory to look at the construction created by BW with the ending, and I came to the conclusion (not an epiphany or sudden change of heart, but through a gradual change with more understanding) that the ending wasn't really all that bad. Most of the issues lie with how its presented to us. 

 

Can I ask what are the philosophical and theoretical issues you have with the ending are?



#35
Goodmongo

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I don't like synthesis but it is the only permanent option.  Either Shepard goes with it or a future cycle picks it.  All other endings will eventually result in a synthetics and organics war.  In another thread I posted why destruction and control still result in "chaos".



#36
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I don't like synthesis but it is the only permanent option.  Either Shepard goes with it or a future cycle picks it.  All other endings will eventually result in a synthetics and organics war.  In another thread I posted why destruction and control still result in "chaos".

 

Not true.

 

You do not need to pick Synthesis as presented by the Reapers to have a singularity assimilation between organic life and synthetic life. It could be achieved at a later date with more understanding from retrieved Reaper machinery. No where is it stated that this is your one chance to achieve synthesis after all.


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#37
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Not true.

 

You do not need to pick Synthesis as presented by the Reapers to have a singularity assimilation between organic life and synthetic life. It could be achieved at a later date with more understanding from retrieved Reaper machinery. No where is it stated that this is your one chance to achieve synthesis after all.

 

If you do nothing then the cycle ends with current organics harvested.  Only future cycles have the option of synthesis.

 

If you pick destruction the reapers are destroyed.  You don't have the knowledge of them.  In a future war that the catalyst says is inevitable organics will fight synthetics and most likely lose and be wiped out forever.  So not sure how the destroy ending gets you to synergy.

 

So that leaves the control ending.  It is possible, and I raised this issue, that in the future a Shepard lead reaper corps understands that the catalyst was right.  His reapers are constantly fighting synthetics and the bad organics that keep building them.  So he in fact becomes the new catalyst.  And it is up to him as the new catalyst to convince someone to do the synthesis.  But it's no longer possible for Shepard to force synergy.



#38
Batarian Master Race

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I don't have an issue with the beams not knowing what to target. I have an issue with the Catalyst insisting EDI and the Geth will be wiped out along with the reapers, making it sound like he has no control over them.



#39
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If you do nothing then the cycle ends with current organics harvested.  Only future cycles have the option of synthesis.

 

If you pick destruction the reapers are destroyed.  You don't have the knowledge of them.  In a future war that the catalyst says is inevitable organics will fight synthetics and most likely lose and be wiped out forever.  So not sure how the destroy ending gets you to synergy.

 

So that leaves the control ending.  It is possible, and I raised this issue, that in the future a Shepard lead reaper corps understands that the catalyst was right.  His reapers are constantly fighting synthetics and the bad organics that keep building them.  So he in fact becomes the new catalyst.  And it is up to him as the new catalyst to convince someone to do the synthesis.  But it's no longer possible for Shepard to force synergy.

 

We have an understanding of what the singularity is, and what synthesis is. We also know what the overall issue of the Reapers were, and we conveniently have the pieces and parts of them scattered all across the galaxy now for us to use for our own purposes. You're taking the Catalyst a little too literally here: The Catalyst is not precluding that synthesis won't happen on its own ("Now that we know that it is possible, it is inevitable"). 

 

You are precluding the possibility of synthesis occurring outside the Crucible/Citadel/Catalyst mix. The Reapers do not need to exist or be alive to induce the singularity. Their knowledge is still available to us and ready for us to use through their technology. 

 

Synthesis can be achieved beyond what is presented in the games. You're saying that synthesis, as shown, is the only given for it. It's simply not true at all.



#40
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I don't have an issue with the beams not knowing what to target. I have an issue with the Catalyst insisting EDI and the Geth will be wiped out along with the reapers, making it sound like he has no control over them.

 

He (catalyst) has no control on how to exclude some synthetics while making other synthetics targeted.  It's friendly fire for the first time in a ME game.  Remember the catalyst isn't even sure that you (Shepard) will be spared since you are part synthetic.  EDI and the Geth are pure machine AI's and the beam will destroy these.

 

I would find it harder to believe that it can destroy only "bad" AI's.  If that was the case then that option would have been done in previous cycles.  Finally, both EDI and the Geth now have reaper technology as part of them.  I think this is why Shepard wasn't killed by the beam as his synthetics are not reaper based.



#41
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I don't have an issue with the beams not knowing what to target. I have an issue with the Catalyst insisting EDI and the Geth will be wiped out along with the reapers, making it sound like he has no control over them.

 

Wait what? The Catalyst? He has no power over the Crucible beams. All he does is serve as exposition. He didn't create or control how the Crucible works with the Citadel, he's only telling you what it does.

 

I also don't understand why people are so upset over the Destroy wave killing all synthetics besides the Reapers. It's probably some type of system overload that... overloads computer and technological systems - including synthetics.



#42
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We have an understanding of what the singularity is, and what synthesis is. We also know what the overall issue of the Reapers were, and we conveniently have the pieces and parts of them scattered all across the galaxy now for us to use for our own purposes. You're taking the Catalyst a little too literally here: The Catalyst is not precluding that synthesis won't happen on its own ("Now that we know that it is possible, it is inevitable"). 

 

You are precluding the possibility of synthesis occurring outside the Crucible/Citadel/Catalyst mix. The Reapers do not need to exist or be alive to induce the singularity. Their knowledge is still available to us and ready for us to use through their technology. 

 

Synthesis can be achieved beyond what is presented in the games. You're saying that synthesis, as shown, is the only given for it. It's simply not true at all.

 

That is a huge assumption on a number of fronts.

 

1) The reapers are destroyed.  While their "bodies" are lying around that doesn't mean their knowledge is.  If I destroy my computer I can do it with a hammer and gain data stored on my hard drive.  But data stored in RAM is gone.  Or I can also wipe the hard drives in my destruction process where no data is recovered.  The pieces are there but not much else.

 

2) Part of the synthesis is the power and energy that the crucible and catalyst combine to make.  The crucible needed the catalyst.  The catalyst is now gone.  The catalyst predates almost everything.  No one knows how to duplicate this energy and I see no evidence that the reapers could do it since the reapers were just a tool and construct to carry out the directions of the catalyst.  So how do you get this component?

 

What we do know is that the catalyst says it is the ultimate (implying final) evolution of life, IF organics survive.  The catalyst also implies that it is inevitable but that could be billions of years in the future.  Where I have issues is that you're implying that synergy could happen in the "near" (relative) future even in a destruction ending.  In a control ending I can see it but not in a destruction ending.

 

In fact the catalyst says that in the destruction ending eventually your children will build synthetics and organics will become extinct.  

 

 

I also don't understand why people are so upset over the Destroy wave killing all synthetics besides the Reapers. It's probably some type of system overload that... overloads computer and technological systems - including synthetics.

 

 

In fact I see EDI and the Geth being destroyed because they have reaper technology in their systems.  This would explain why Sheaprd lives but they die.  Basically, the wave targets AI's or beings with reaper technology.  It explains why husks and other things die and I bet Cerberus troops with the implants would also die.



#43
God

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That is a huge assumption on a number of fronts.

 

 

 

No more than your own assumptions here. You're taking a very literal interpretation of a part of the game that has an intentionally high amount of esoteric semantics to it. If we took everything as completely narratively literal as you did, we'd have to account for the parts of the Catalyst's speech where it does outright contradict itself while making poor analogies. 

 

You're not accounting for bad writing here. Meaning supersedes semantics here.

 


1) The reapers are destroyed.  While their "bodies" are lying around that doesn't mean their knowledge is.  If I destroy my computer I can do it with a hammer and gain data stored on my hard drive.  But data stored in RAM is gone.  Or I can also wipe the hard drives in my destruction process where no data is recovered.  The pieces are there but not much else.

 

 

 

Here's your first assumption. We don't know what the destroy wave does to the Reapers or other synthetics. It does 'kill' them, but we don't know what that means in the context of the ending. As well, we still have the technology, the hardware of the Reapers. Their own advancements displace any other information that we might have gotten from any of their combined essences over the eons (many of which would likely have little physical utility to humanity or the other races due to the sheer biological, cultural, and functional differences between us). As well, we know that the Reapers technology is still able to physically survive, given what we see from Sovereign and the Reaper destroyed/purged in the Collector base. You 'kill' that Reaper as well (when you purge it), yet its AI matrix and 'brain' is still completely intact, giving Cerberus and the alliance unprecedented computational abilities. As for when you destroy it (along with Sovereign) we see that we have plenty of technology to use, including an experimental power core that is able to provide tremendous amounts of energy for its size. Sovereign meanwhile was blown to pieces, yet it was still useful for rewriting a software for a VI that would eventually become EDI. And along with the best and brightest minds of humanity (and the galaxy at large), you have a large number of innovations and advances in technology in nearly every field. Given that we were still able to recreate the Crucible (and rebuild the Citadel), it's not difficult to imagine that, with further understanding, we could find a means of inducing synthesis again at a later date. 

 


2) Part of the synthesis is the power and energy that the crucible and catalyst combine to make.  The crucible needed the catalyst.  The catalyst is now gone.  The catalyst predates almost everything.  No one knows how to duplicate this energy and I see no evidence that the reapers could do it since the reapers were just a tool and construct to carry out the directions of the catalyst.  So how do you get this component?

 

 

 

The Catalyst being the Citadel? We have that, as the Destroy ending clearly shows. Otherwise, this is a fallacious argument: The Catalyst (AI) may be destroyed, but the Citadel can be rebuilt. The fallacy comes in when you state that due to the age and loss of the Catalyst, no one can know what it does. This is a non-sequiter. What we need is the reconstruction of the Crucible and the Citadel. The Catalyst more or less manifested into a visual form to provide you with an interactive avatar and voice piece to present to you what you (YOU) have constructed with the Crucible, and how its union with the Citadel provides a means to create new possibilities. We can do both of these now. The Catalyst, the AI, is not presented to be essential to this process. It itself states that it cannot make any of the possibilities happen.

 

What we do know is that the catalyst says it is the ultimate (implying final) evolution of life, IF organics survive.  The catalyst also implies that it is inevitable but that could be billions of years in the future.  Where I have issues is that you're implying that synergy could happen in the "near" (relative) future even in a destruction ending.  In a control ending I can see it but not in a destruction ending.

 

 

 

This statement alone isn't true. Evolution is not a destination, it is a process, one that does not end. It cannot have a final end-point. What the best, most efficient form of evolution however is what is provided by transhumanism/transcendence: the ability to evolve and change at will, up to, including, and surpassing manipulation of the universe and reality itself. But on that note is where a lot of the poor writing for the ending comes into play.

 

As well, billions of years of chance and evolution of life where it 'wasn't ready' whereas we are (and are at a suitably advanced terminus) while having the full resources and technology of the Reapers at our disposal is where I draw the conclusion that a singularity is now possible within decades, if not a few years. We have the means, we have the knowledge, and, with Shepard's perspective, we have the context and knowledge of why it is also a sociological necessity. As well, you're taking an implication (i.e. implied) and drawing a factual conclusion from the immediate period. As I said, don't take a literal interpretation of the semantics in the wording. It's a case for a meta-ethical discussion on defining the terms. 'Children' refers to progeny, posterity, future generations. There is no statement that it means 'Shepard's literal biological children'. It's not so much a directive of what will happen for sure, but serves as a warning and motivation for us to achieve higher with synthesis as we know what the consequence will be if we don't. 

 


In fact the catalyst says that in the destruction ending eventually your children will build synthetics and organics will become extinct.

 

 

 

See above, I just addressed this.

 

It seems you're referring to literal children. I'm saying that this isn't so much a statement of what will happen so much as a warning to provide us impetus to grow and evolve before we again reach that point, to not let ourselves fall into the old pattern, but to break the system altogether with something new.

 

In fact I see EDI and the Geth being destroyed because they have reaper technology in their systems.  This would explain why Sheaprd lives but they die.  Basically, the wave targets AI's or beings with reaper technology.  It explains why husks and other things die and I bet Cerberus troops with the implants would also die.

 

 

This isn't what the Catalyst is implying. It states that the Crucible will not discriminate its targets. It doesn't specify whether or not its targeting Reaper technology specifically or not. It implies that Shepard will be affected. As well, look at what happens in Low-to-Mid-EMS Destroy, where it outright annihilates everything and everyone in the former, while heavily damaging infrastructure and technology in the latter. This implies that it does not function to target Reapers specifically at all. Which leads me to conclude that High-EMS Destroy is fine-tuned and intact enough to target higher forms of technology and synthetics in general. It's clear that there is damage done to all sides involved, while being mostly intact enough to be workable.

 

This is where things get a bit messy: The Catalyst has two contradicting definitions for 'synthetic', which it uses with two different scenarios, and it's clear that it's referring to both. For Destroy, the Catalyst implies that it is targeting all synthetic systems and technology, period. For Synthesis, it implies that it is referring specifically to advanced synthetic intelligence lifeforms. What are we to draw from this type of language where the definition is interchanged and used differently.

 

To me, it's just a symptom of the poor structuring and writing of the ending. BW had a plot that worked, but a means that didn't work so well.



#44
CrutchCricket

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I might be exaggerating in some aspects, but this does reflect my views pretty well. Certainly not trolling. Same with the radical pro-human stance. Why do you always assume I'm trolling?
 
I support synthesis in its entirety. Granted, it's poorly written, and I think we ought to destroy first. It can't happen too fast (not that we're not ready, but I'm not done consolidating a power base yet). Use the Reaper technology to put humanity at the forefront, and create a Platonian/Socratic social construct and caste system, and base our own synthesis off of his ideologies on transcendence. 
 
As for the endings themselves, really the only issues I have are with the writing for it. It's not written well, but altogether, I like where BW was going with it, what their idea for it was. It needed less brainstorming and stronger narrative however. 
 
I can go into detail on that front if you like. It's true though, I used to dislike the endings immensely, but as time wore on, I took a more critical view of the themes and ideas presented by the endings, and I did my best to drop emotive reasoning and turned to rationalism. I researched other topics in philosophy, technology, and political theory to look at the construction created by BW with the ending, and I came to the conclusion (not an epiphany or sudden change of heart, but through a gradual change with more understanding) that the ending wasn't really all that bad. Most of the issues lie with how its presented to us. 
 
Can I ask what are the philosophical and theoretical issues you have with the ending are?

Because I've been around long enough.

 

As with most people who speak positively about the endings (especially synthesis) and who aren't biodrones, you make them fit an outcome you desire. Whether it's transcendence for the sake of transcendence or to impose some radical ideal on the world, you're extrapolating from what's there to fulfill your vision. And that makes it interesting for you. Hell, even I do it with Control, even though I genuinely believe that is what should logically happen anyway.

 

But the thing is, none of that is built in. The endings aren't deep as written, they're simply poorly defined, which just happens to allow you to assume any depth you like. I'm fairly certain that when Hudson and Walters went into that room, they didn't go in there with Plato, they went in with various substances of perhaps questionable legality and just "came up with some ****". My degree hasn't seen much practical use but I know how to develop a rational theory just as I know how to simply "come up with ****" and I can usually spot the difference. The other problem is, deep philosophical thought or stoner bullshit, neither really fits the franchise. Mass Effect is simply Bioware's notStar Wars, a semi-hard sci-fi that softened into a full on space adventure romp with plenty of homages to stuff that came before (which is a nice way of saying it's a huge mishmash of previous genre influences). It can have some nice philosophical questions thrown in (and it does) but that doesn't mean it can go all Matrix on us at the last minute. I saw you criticize someone in another thread for expecting a degree of agency that was never really there. Well this stuff wasn't there either.

 

I've said before that as pure ways to end the Reaper threat go, the choices aren't fundamentally flawed. Destroy is obvious, and Control makes a nice twist. Synthesis is more problematic because it doesn't just address the Reapers, it address the so called "larger problem". And this larger problem is where the issues come from. There's a lot wrong procedurally with the ending and I think labeling it as presentation underplays the issues.

 

So what's wrong with the ending?

1. The holokid- everything about the holokid is dumb. The fact that he appears as a child is stupid and manipulative. The fact that he "controls" the Reapers, the main antagonists of the series immediately casts doubt on everything it says and makes us not want to listen. It'd be like Luke confronting Palpatine and Palpatine going "no, really, I'm committing genocide and blowing up planets because the Yuuzhan Vong are coming. It's really in your best interest to let me continue. Or maybe you could take my place and blow up planets." Even if that did become part of his motivation later, simply springing this **** on us at the last second and expecting us to take it seriously would be insane and nonsensical. And speaking of nonsensical, how about the part where it "controls" the Reapers yet can't or won't control the Citadel itself in certain crucial moments like the entirety of the series. This isn't just presentation, it's idiotic design a two-year-old wouldn't accept.

 

2. Organics vs synthetics- so everything in the series boils down to stopping Skynet. Apart from being cheap and overplayed, this is poorly defined and at odds with elements in its own universe. We're told "synthetics will always rebel" and wipe out organics. Except when the geth rebelled they let the quarians go. They didn't have to. They had the ability to wipe them out completely. But they chose not to because they "couldn't contemplate the consequences of exterminating an entire species" or something. Then they lived in isolation for four hundred years when they could've easily expanded and upgraded and started killing all organics. Yet no geth attacked organics outside their territory until Sovereign. This flies in the face of everything the holokid tries to tell us. See a rebellion only really works when you have something to rebel against. But a synthetic in isolation isn't rebelling against anything. The fact the geth chose not to kill all organics for four centuries (which is subjectively much longer to entities who think and communicate at near the speed of light) is all the proof I need that it's full of ****. And it isn't just half wrong, it's all wrong. See it also says "organics will always create synthetics" to aid them or whatever. Yet what synthetics did the rachni create or are likely to create? Seems to me that an insect race that has drones for all its menial requirements isn't going to create **** when it comes to synthetics. For an intelligence that claims to know what all possible life in the galaxy will do, the holokid sure has an anthropomorphic bias. And what about the thorian? That's organic life. How many synthetics has it created? Well we haven't been around that long so we don't know for sure... but the answer's none. The thorian is not only anti-synthetic but it can pretty much guarantee any servants around it aren't going to create synthetics because it can't control them. Say that reminds me of another race that controlled people but couldn't control synthetics. The original ******* cuttlefish of the galaxy. The three or four Leviathans on Despoina controlled an entire asteroid mining facility's worth of people for 10 years straight. An entire race of them could pretty much control the galaxy, literally. Yet here we are being told there's no conceivable way to stop the robopocalypse other than to perpetuate a robopocalypse every 50,000 years. Hey, assholes, how about just killing the robots? You tricked everyone into using the Citadel as the center of their civilization. Why not trick them into using your internet connection too so any time an AI connects to it you just immediately send it a virus and kill it? Or disable the relays near its point of origin and come in and bombard it to dust? And don't give me crap like "it'll evolve past the point we can stop it". The Reapers are already the most advanced thing in the galaxy and are capable of upgrading at an exponential rate compared to anything else. The only reason they're stagnant is because everything else is and they're perfectly suited to the current conditions. And they only reason all that is is because they made it this way. Or how about just making everything on the Citadel a device that transmits low-level indoctrination to plant the idea in everyone's head that AIs are bad? Everything about this just screams "fail", I don't know how anyone can take it seriously. And that's not even getting into the circular logic of the cycles. I guess circular logic powering cycles is supposed to be "artistic" or something.

 

I could go on, and talk about capitulating to the enemy in a power fantasy, "you make all the difference" series or how the mysterious and nigh-cosmic antagonists were reduced to a bunch of killbots operating on a buggy program but honestly after three years, reiterating all this is just tiring. I understand they wrote themselves into a corner and I don't have a problem with a deus ex machina that resolves the problem with a door number 1-3 solution. Just don't be so ****** insulting with it. Have the exposition hologram just be a VI guide to the crucible and have nothing to do with the Reapers. Leave out the Reaper grand plan or at very least provide one that makes sense if you want synthesis to work (and also have that make more sense). Have destroy EMP all tech with the understanding that people will eventually recover and reboot their systems. Have more foreshadowing with control. And for the love of all that may exist but cannot be empirically proven, do not attach arbitrary consequences to choices to just to push other choices. Give us valid reasons for choosing each by making each a different kind of victory.


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#45
God

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Well... ranted. I see your passion hasn't cooled down any.

 

I mean most of it comes down to functional levels of the writing and how it didn't work so well. 

 

I think we largely agree that the writing was bad, but that it was an interesting concept. 

 

Fair enough on the trolling bit. Just don't assume I'm trolling all the time. I like to screw with people, especially new posters. See how well they survive.



#46
CrutchCricket

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I will certainly try not to ruin your fun.



#47
Goodmongo

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Here's your first assumption. We don't know what the destroy wave does to the Reapers or other synthetics. It does 'kill' them, but we don't know what that means in the context of the ending. As well, we still have the technology, the hardware of the Reapers. Their own advancements displace any other information that we might have gotten from any of their combined essences over the eons (many of which would likely have little physical utility to humanity or the other races due to the sheer biological, cultural, and functional differences between us). As well, we know that the Reapers technology is still able to physically survive, given what we see from Sovereign and the Reaper destroyed/purged in the Collector base. You 'kill' that Reaper as well (when you purge it), yet its AI matrix and 'brain' is still completely intact, giving Cerberus and the alliance unprecedented computational abilities. As for when you destroy it (along with Sovereign) we see that we have plenty of technology to use, including an experimental power core that is able to provide tremendous amounts of energy for its size. Sovereign meanwhile was blown to pieces, yet it was still useful for rewriting a software for a VI that would eventually become EDI. And along with the best and brightest minds of humanity (and the galaxy at large), you have a large number of innovations and advances in technology in nearly every field. Given that we were still able to recreate the Crucible (and rebuild the Citadel), it's not difficult to imagine that, with further understanding, we could find a means of inducing synthesis again at a later date. 

 

We don't know for sure.  But the catalyst says they will be really destroyed.  I forget the exact words but the meaning to me was clear.  Shepard knows that conventional weapons don't really kill off a reaper.  The 'dead" reaper around the brown dwarf showed this.  Shepard wanted confirmation from the catalyst that they would in fact be dead.  To me it is a bigger assumption and logic leap to assume that the creator/controller of the reapers couldn't kill them off completely.  It uses energy and power never before used.  But you think it doesn't do much more then a rail gun on the Normandy would in killing one.

 

I think you make the logic error in thinking how organics kill a reaper is the same as what happened.  BTW the citadel is not the catalyst.  It is a place or part of the catalyst nothing more.  Rebuilding our house doesn't mean we bring back the people that died there.  This technology was so far advanced over humans that the catalyst even made the comment that comparing their AI to other AI is like comparing humans to an animal.  I have to replay the ending again but I thought I remember something that says the knowledge of the 'creators' of the reapers and the catalyst would be lost.  But not sure if I'm remembering correctly.

 

The Catalyst being the Citadel? We have that, as the Destroy ending clearly shows. Otherwise, this is a fallacious argument: The Catalyst (AI) may be destroyed, but the Citadel can be rebuilt. The fallacy comes in when you state that due to the age and loss of the Catalyst, no one can know what it does. This is a non-sequiter. What we need is the reconstruction of the Crucible and the Citadel. The Catalyst more or less manifested into a visual form to provide you with an interactive avatar and voice piece to present to you what you (YOU) have constructed with the Crucible, and how its union with the Citadel provides a means to create new possibilities. We can do both of these now. The Catalyst, the AI, is not presented to be essential to this process. It itself states that it cannot make any of the possibilities happen.

 

You have the house but not the knowledge or power.  Remember how in ME1 scientists couldn't and wouldn't even try to recreate the "keepers"?  Scientists didn't know where they came from how they were created or much else.  Yet you now propose that in the vast wreckage we can rebuild it all including the power behind it.  

Remember that even with dead reapers we couldn't reproduce their power.  This is an important fact.  If we could we could fight them.  Instead we got some tips but really didn't know what gave the reapers such power.  And the catalyst was even stronger and had more power.  Yet your assumption says that what we couldn't do before, what the Protheans and countless cycles could never do is now done.  Compare that to my simple assumption that we rebuild some things but can not reach the same level as them, at least not for the foreseeable future.

 

This statement alone isn't true. Evolution is not a destination, it is a process, one that does not end. It cannot have a final end-point. What the best, most efficient form of evolution however is what is provided by transhumanism/transcendence: the ability to evolve and change at will, up to, including, and surpassing manipulation of the universe and reality itself. But on that note is where a lot of the poor writing for the ending comes into play.

 

As well, billions of years of chance and evolution of life where it 'wasn't ready' whereas we are (and are at a suitably advanced terminus) while having the full resources and technology of the Reapers at our disposal is where I draw the conclusion that a singularity is now possible within decades, if not a few years. We have the means, we have the knowledge, and, with Shepard's perspective, we have the context and knowledge of why it is also a sociological necessity. As well, you're taking an implication (i.e. implied) and drawing a factual conclusion from the immediate period. As I said, don't take a literal interpretation of the semantics in the wording. It's a case for a meta-ethical discussion on defining the terms. 'Children' refers to progeny, posterity, future generations. There is no statement that it means 'Shepard's literal biological children'. It's not so much a directive of what will happen for sure, but serves as a warning and motivation for us to achieve higher with synthesis as we know what the consequence will be if we don't. 

 

It is both a process and eventually a destination.  Look at things that haven't evolved in millions of years.  They reached their final evolutionary destination.  In the destroy ending we don't know if we will even have SOME of the knowledge of the reapers.  That was an assumption on your part that I disagree with.  Now I do agree that in some future we could evolve to synergy.  But the catalyst made it clear that we wouldn't have the time as our children (some future) would recreate synthetics and organics would eventually be defeated and become extinct.  Remember this is for the destroy ending.  Control ending what you say is possible because the reapers and knowledge are preserved.  But that is a different argument.

 

There are two very huge assumptions for your take on the destroy ending to result in synergy.

 

1) We gain the knowledge of not just the reapers but more importantly the ones that created the reapers.  Nothing in the destroy ending supports this.  The reapers were destroyed via means that humans could not do without the energy of the catalyst.  So why should we think that their destruction wouldn't be more substantial than ours?

2) We can somehow replicate their energy.  This is a big one.  IIRC in a journal entry the scientists had no clue how they harnessed their energy.  They couldn't duplicate it.  The crucible was useless without this energy.

 

It seems you're referring to literal children. I'm saying that this isn't so much a statement of what will happen so much as a warning to provide us impetus to grow and evolve before we again reach that point, to not let ourselves fall into the old pattern, but to break the system altogether with something new.

 

No I'm not.  I meant some future generation.  But I place it far closer to present than it would take to evolve.  We already have the technology to recreate synthetic AI's.  It's been done many times in this cycle.  So the only thing holding it back is an agreement not to do it.  So in 500 years organics try it again.  Or maybe even sooner as they need help rebuilding.  Maybe the Quarians  rebuild the Geth because they now think they will play nice and speed up their problem of their immune system.  I see it happening sooner rather than later.  Way before we can evolve into some other being.

 

 

This isn't what the Catalyst is implying. It states that the Crucible will not discriminate its targets. It doesn't specify whether or not its targeting Reaper technology specifically or not. It implies that Shepard will be affected. As well, look at what happens in Low-to-Mid-EMS Destroy, where it outright annihilates everything and everyone in the former, while heavily damaging infrastructure and technology in the latter. This implies that it does not function to target Reapers specifically at all. Which leads me to conclude that High-EMS Destroy is fine-tuned and intact enough to target higher forms of technology and synthetics in general. It's clear that there is damage done to all sides involved, while being mostly intact enough to be workable.

 

 

It says Shepard might/could be targeted.  There is doubt there.  Hindsight supports my premise.  Shepard doesn't die from the wave but EDI and the Geth do.  Basically everything with reaper technology dies.  Husks, EDI, the Geth all die.  I bet Cerberus troops with reaper implants also die but we don't see it.  Shepard has synthetic implants but they weren't reaper implants.  The only outcome that fits the facts is that reaper AI technology dies.  I'm using Occam's Razor here.

 

 

This is where things get a bit messy: The Catalyst has two contradicting definitions for 'synthetic', which it uses with two different scenarios, and it's clear that it's referring to both. For Destroy, the Catalyst implies that it is targeting all synthetic systems and technology, period. For Synthesis, it implies that it is referring specifically to advanced synthetic intelligence lifeforms. What are we to draw from this type of language where the definition is interchanged and used differently.

 

The catalyst is unsure.  It is not sure if Shepard will die as I said.  And it doesn't attack all technology.  I never heard that or seen anything to support it.  Once again going back to my previous statement that destroy targets reaper based technology life fits perfectly.  Synthesis then includes organic life.  But that did leave open what happens to things like dogs, fish and other animals.

 

EDIT:  And just because I only have 23 posts HERE doesn't mean I'm new.



#48
Batarian Master Race

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How does the catalyst differentiate between Reaper and Non-Reaper technology? And if it can do so, why is it unsure if Shepard will survive? Either he will, or he won't, depending on whether or not there's reaper tech in him.



#49
Goodmongo

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How does the catalyst differentiate between Reaper and Non-Reaper technology? And if it can do so, why is it unsure if Shepard will survive? Either he will, or he won't, depending on whether or not there's reaper tech in him.

 

Good question.  Please note that my hypothesis is based on the outcome and not really based on the conversation before.  In fact the catalyst doesn't say only reaper based tech is targeted.  It says all synthetics and Shepard has synthetic implants.  It implies that Shepard will be a target.

 

But the results show that not all technology is targeted.  It seems only reaper based technology is impacted.  So that is how I came to the conclusion that the targeting mechanism (based on pre-reaper technology) only picked out similar technology.

 

Now for real speculation on my part.  I think the catalyst knew exactly what would happen.  But it wanted to make it a bad choice for Shepard to make.  The catalyst knew that Shepard had to die in the other choices so said that Shepard could die here as well.  If instead the Catalyst was 100% open and honest and said:

 

The destroy option will kill only reaper based technology which means you're OK but me, the reapers, husks, EDI and the Geth (since they have reaper technology) will all die but nothing else.  Now we'll be dead and gone but we also know that sometime in the future (maybe soon maybe thousands of years from now) organics will fight synthetics and become extinct.  But for now you and all your organic friends will do just fine.

 

What do you think players will pick?  I would say sorry EDI, sorry Geth but this is the best for the rest.

 

Now could Bioware really present the option that way?



#50
teh DRUMPf!!

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 I imagine that the Destroy wave basically just resets all machines to factory-defaults.

 

 

Sentient machines lose all their data, thus "dying."