75 réponses à ce sujet

[Goodmongo]

What is so ironic is that Stephen Hawking and others are saying that AI will destroy humans and it the single greatest threat out there.  Is he the catalyst of today?

[angol fear]

What is so ironic is that Stephen Hawking and others are saying that AI will destroy humans and it the single greatest threat out there. Is he the catalyst of today?

And you can add that a robot who tried to travel (HitchBOT) was destroyed by a man. Robot can't trust human. The logic of Mass effect is demonstrated, applied in our lives. Now do we really think like hollywood rainbows about freedom and the catalyst is wrong because we can't see the picture or will we grow up and see the problem and why there is a moment we won't be able to stop it ? The logic of Mass Effect is far from being stupid but to understand it we have to stop to think like children, like hollywood teaches us to ignore the reality, with a stupid and unrealistic optimism and human centered point of view.

[Batarian Master Race]

Characterizing anyone that disagrees with you, that shows the slightest hint of optimism in the face of your relentless, pessimistic cynicism as "childish" is exactly why I don't take anything you say seriously. You're generalizing an entire species and... whatever word describes robots, based on a single example, cherrypicking from all the examples where robots and humans have worked together flawlessly. If I weren't such a nice and wholesome person, I'd say that this is exactly the thought pattern of a racist.

 

New headcanon: angol fear is the Catalyst, and their tireless defense of the endings is just another way of keeping humanity under control.

[Kabooooom]

Not true.

You do not need to pick Synthesis as presented by the Reapers to have a singularity assimilation between organic life and synthetic life. It could be achieved at a later date with more understanding from retrieved Reaper machinery. No where is it stated that this is your one chance to achieve synthesis after all.

Indeed, and the exact opposite is even stated by the Catalyst - Synthesis is inevitable. Ie- in Control or Destroy, eventually synthesis will occur in a thousand, million, or billion years. Inevitable.

At the time, I took this to mean that Bioware would probably canonize Synthesis (oh, the horror-seriously it made me almost not want the series to continue) until they stated that they specifically didn't want to canonize anything at all. Which I am infinitely happier with than a canon synthesis where I can romance a husk.

[Kabooooom]

What is so ironic is that Stephen Hawking and others are saying that AI will destroy humans and it the single greatest threat out there. Is he the catalyst of today?

I'm not sure I agree with him, but it could be a significant threat, to be honest, depending on your perspective.

But the greatest threat to our survival is ourselves. As it has always been. There is a significant nonzero likelihood that we will cause our own extinction - either via nuclear warfare, catastrophic climate change, overpopulation/subsequent pandemics/wars for resources...or, much less likely, a machine apocalypse.

If anything, we will probably incorporate cybernetics and artificial intelligence so far into our society that the two will become hopelessly intertwined.

That said, it is probably extremely difficult to fully eradicate a species as advanced as we are without a cosmic sort of apocalypse. Even with a global nuclear holocaust, some of us would probably survive. But, if humans have proven anything over our history, it is that we **** up as often as we are ingenious, and are absofuckinglutely thorough when it comes to ****** up.

[dreamgazer]

What is so ironic is that Stephen Hawking and others are saying that AI will destroy humans and it the single greatest threat out there.  Is he the catalyst of today?

Elon Musk isn't too thrilled with the idea of AI either, calling it the "biggest existential threat to humanity". Bah, but what do these individuals know?
 
Also, from Musk: "Just because somebody hasn’t experienced or isn’t deeply familiar with an advanced technology doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist".

[God]

We don't know for sure.  But the catalyst says they will be really destroyed.  I forget the exact words but the meaning to me was clear.  Shepard knows that conventional weapons don't really kill off a reaper.  The 'dead" reaper around the brown dwarf showed this.  Shepard wanted confirmation from the catalyst that they would in fact be dead.  To me it is a bigger assumption and logic leap to assume that the creator/controller of the reapers couldn't kill them off completely.  It uses energy and power never before used.  But you think it doesn't do much more then a rail gun on the Normandy would in killing one.

 

 

 

There's a lot of speculation for why this is the case. In the ending, for all we know, the Reapers ability for indoctrination might still exist: but what for? There are no Reapers (and no collective will) left to indoctrinate for. Now, this is a thought experiment, and I'm in no way saying this is the case. I'm using it to highlight why you're being certain here where there is no certainty. That said, the Reaper around the Brown Dwarf wasn't killed so much as it was disabled by a glancing blow. It's still mostly intact. In fact, its power core is still completely intact and functional, if in a state of hibernation or coma. It's more akin to being hit in the head and knocked out more than 'death'. It's not really the best of examples to give, especially when considered with the other two I gave. 

 

On this however, I can't help but feel that you aren't addressing my points so much as talking past them. You're trying to say that I can't be sure of how 'dead' the Reapers are, and that's not the point I'm going for at all. 

 

The point I'm going for is to show that Reaper hardware, after the Destroy wave, is still intact, and the Citadel (i.e. the focus point for the Crucible) can and is rebuilt. We have enough knowledge on the Citadel and the Crucible to rebuild them, especially with what gains we gather from the Reapers.

 

I think you make the logic error in thinking how organics kill a reaper is the same as what happened.  BTW the citadel is not the catalyst.  It is a place or part of the catalyst nothing more.  Rebuilding our house doesn't mean we bring back the people that died there.  This technology was so far advanced over humans that the catalyst even made the comment that comparing their AI to other AI is like comparing humans to an animal.  I have to replay the ending again but I thought I remember something that says the knowledge of the 'creators' of the reapers and the catalyst would be lost.  But not sure if I'm remembering correctly.

 

 

The error is that it doesn't matter about where the people in the house, so to speak are. It doesn't matter. We don't need the Reapers to be sentient or sapient to harness their technology, rebuild our own, and advance ourselves. The Citadel is a pretty big part of the Catalyst, being its home and all. The thing here is that I think you're overstating the value and importance of the Catalyst on this issue. It's a mouthpiece, an exposition point to tell you what is available to you with the union between the Citadel and the Crucible, and to inform you of the consequences (and benefits) of each possibility. Other than that, it's little more than an active observer. It isn't an integral part of the process, and it realizes this. Thus far, most of your points on the Catalyst have been a non-sequiter.

 

As well, you're simply missing the point on the Catalyst's retort for Shepard's "you're just an AI" line. It isn't comparing itself to other AI, it's stating that Shepard calling it just an AI, just a machine is a gross over-simplification akin to comparing a human to an animal or beast. It's chastising Shepard for making such a statement, not proclaiming itself to be more advanced (though it undoubtedly is). It's not pertinent to the discussion, but I feel the argument over the semantics here allows me to conclude that you aren't a native English speaker.

 

Otherwise, no the knowledge of the Reapers and their creators would not be lost, namely because the Leviathans still yet live. But even if the Reaper personality, the software, is lost, we still have their technology and their means to assist in advancement. Given that we can repair the Citadel and the Mass Relays in Destroy, we do indeed (contrary to your assertion) have the ability to reverse engineer and use the Reaper technology and knowledge to our advantage.

 

You have the house but not the knowledge or power.  Remember how in ME1 scientists couldn't and wouldn't even try to recreate the "keepers"?  Scientists didn't know where they came from how they were created or much else.  Yet you now propose that in the vast wreckage we can rebuild it all including the power behind it.  

Remember that even with dead reapers we couldn't reproduce their power.  This is an important fact.  If we could we could fight them.  Instead we got some tips but really didn't know what gave the reapers such power.  And the catalyst was even stronger and had more power.  Yet your assumption says that what we couldn't do before, what the Protheans and countless cycles could never do is now done.  Compare that to my simple assumption that we rebuild some things but can not reach the same level as them, at least not for the foreseeable future.

 

Yes, I do propose that in the vast wreckage, we can rebuild all of the technology that we have lost. I argue that we do indeed have the knowledge and power, and that we can indeed acquire the technology and insight from the Reapers remains. This is shown through the capability to rebuild both the Citadel and, more importantly, the Mass Relays. If we can rebuild the Mass Relays, we'd have to have some kind of understanding and awareness of Reaper technology. The same goes for the Citadel. On the topic of the ME1 scientists not understanding the Keepers, this is partially because so few people try to understand them after such a time. There was one Salarian scientist, but he had to do everything on his own and had no resources to draw from so to speak (and he was still intelligent and insightful enough to independently come to the conclusion that the Keepers were more than just care-takers and guardians.) And with the proverbial nut of the Citadel cracked open, we actually have the ability to understand much, much more topics. 

 

Otherwise, I don't seem to be understanding what this vague 'power' that you've been referring to is. You're saying that the Reapers and the Catalyst have some kind of power, but aren't defining what it is, or how its lost through destroy (or how it matters in the first place). Thus, I tend to think of it as a non-important trait that isn't factual so much as an attribute that doesn't make much of a difference. 

 

We know why we can't fight the Reapers. They have advanced shield technology, which essentially make them near impervious to firepower from an entire fleet. They aren't invulnerable, but we don't have enough bigger guns to kill them with. It's a matter of scale. And if we're referring to actually 'killing' them, then yes, yes we do know what that power is and that we indeed have it. That is the Crucible, and its combination with the Citadel.

 

Your point on power, due to your lack of definition, is something that I'm discarding as irrelevant and a non-sequiter. You haven't explained what it is, how it works, what it does, and what its relevance and effectiveness is.

 

It is both a process and eventually a destination.  Look at things that haven't evolved in millions of years.  They reached their final evolutionary destination.  In the destroy ending we don't know if we will even have SOME of the knowledge of the reapers.  That was an assumption on your part that I disagree with.  Now I do agree that in some future we could evolve to synergy.  But the catalyst made it clear that we wouldn't have the time as our children (some future) would recreate synthetics and organics would eventually be defeated and become extinct.  Remember this is for the destroy ending.  Control ending what you say is possible because the reapers and knowledge are preserved.  But that is a different argument.

 

There are two very huge assumptions for your take on the destroy ending to result in synergy.

 

1) We gain the knowledge of not just the reapers but more importantly the ones that created the reapers.  Nothing in the destroy ending supports this.  The reapers were destroyed via means that humans could not do without the energy of the catalyst.  So why should we think that their destruction wouldn't be more substantial than ours?

2) We can somehow replicate their energy.  This is a big one.  IIRC in a journal entry the scientists had no clue how they harnessed their energy.  They couldn't duplicate it.  The crucible was useless without this energy.

 

 

That isn't how evolution works. Things that haven't evolved over millions of years have not reached the end of evolution, but simply have not had any beneficial or necessary mutations that allow it a greater advantage in whatever environment they thrive in. Evolution is the process we refer to as change, which, biologically, is mutation. Mutation doesn't stop. Ever. It doesn't have an endpoint; there's simply no catalyst (no pun intended) to make any mutation beneficial.

 

We know for a fact that we have very significant knowledge of the Reapers. Look at what happened after Sovereign was taken out, or the Reaper at the Collector Base. Look at what we gleaned from that. Look at how the future of the galaxy is now that we've been able to beat the Reapers. We've rebuilt the Citadel, and the Mass Relays are rebuilt. That requires some level of significant understanding of the Reapers technology. It's not an assumption it's a fact. I'm not saying that EVERY secret that the Reapers hold is going to immediately come to light, but we're a lot better off than what you seem to think we are (nothing gained at all whatsoever). Otherwise, no, the Catalyst never outright stated that we wouldn't make it to the point of evolution that we speak of. Check its language: it's simply saying that the chaos will begin again eventually. But that does not, I repeat, does not preclude the possibility of achieving a synthesis analogue prior to this point. It instead serves to tell us that we are up against the clock before we do eventually reopen the pandora's box of synthetic intelligence. 

 

Onto the next: 

 

1) Uh... yes. We absolutely do. The only point where you are correct is the part where we gain information on the Creators of the Reapers... which already happened before the ending anyway. We know who built them, and we know what happened for them to come into being. And going by the imagery of reconstruction (including the Citadel and the Mass Relays) we absolutely gain knowledge (vital knowledge) in fact about the Reapers that advances our society. Otherwise, no, we destroyed the Reapers with the Citadel combined with the Crucible. The Catalyst merely appeared to provide exposition. It didn't have any 'power' that it alone could harness to destroy the Reapers. We did that ourselves. Once again, you fail to define what 'power' means here.

 

2) This is the same power I've been asking you to define all conversation. I discard your point as irrelevant and untrue, until you can tell me what this 'energy' is. Element Zero? We have that already, just not as much as the Reapers.

 

No I'm not.  I meant some future generation.  But I place it far closer to present than it would take to evolve.  We already have the technology to recreate synthetic AI's.  It's been done many times in this cycle.  So the only thing holding it back is an agreement not to do it.  So in 500 years organics try it again.  Or maybe even sooner as they need help rebuilding.  Maybe the Quarians  rebuild the Geth because they now think they will play nice and speed up their problem of their immune system.  I see it happening sooner rather than later.  Way before we can evolve into some other being.

 

Ok, thank you for that clarification. And you may of course be correct. But the thing is here, you're hypothesizing and assuming on this end. The Catalyst is giving you an implication of your actions, a look into an eventual consequence that is still not truly set in stone. We have the capability to move past that again. With destroy, it's stated (by the developers) that it takes roughly 10-15 years for complete reconstruction (including all mass relays and the Citadel). Given that we also built the Crucible in under a year (and with us likely still having large parts of it intact after it was activated), and that we have new technology harnessed from the Reapers, we should be able to at least replicate the entire scenario of the ending again within that amount of time. Otherwise, your time estimates are completely arbitrary and given no basis in the lore, just your own speculation. It's an assumption, not a fact. It might (might) be a valid assumption, but it is one I disagree with.

 

The catalyst is unsure.  It is not sure if Shepard will die as I said.  And it doesn't attack all technology.  I never heard that or seen anything to support it.  Once again going back to my previous statement that destroy targets reaper based technology life fits perfectly.  Synthesis then includes organic life.  But that did leave open what happens to things like dogs, fish and other animals.

 

EDIT:  And just because I only have 23 posts HERE doesn't mean I'm new.

 

 

Yes, but it provides reasonable discourse that implies that technology is indeed affected. Look at how the ships in the ending are flying back to Earth with what appears to be limited power. Look at how the Normandy was disabled by the destroy beam and crash landed on Gilligan's Planet. EDI alone going down would not have caused the power core to be overloaded or stressed to this point. Look at the lower level EMS ratings for destroy, the ones where the energy from the Crucible damages infrastructure and even harms living, organic beings. Now, of course, we can say that the damage or lack of assets to the Crucible caused this to happen, but we still see a lot more than just Reapers being affected in both of those endings.

 

And of course, there's no contesting that the Destroy wave targets Reaper technology. That isn't the argument. The argument is whether it targets anything else. Which, given by what we see, it does.

[MisterJB]

 Is the Suicide Mission also garbage (truth be told, it is arguably pretty bad)?

I'm going to need you to expand on that. Your may be the very first post I have seen criticizing the Suicide Mission for more than how impossible it made to feature the ME2 squad.

 

 

Then how does Spacebrat know that Synthesis will be awesome? What evidence is he basing his prediction off of, again?

It's literally the oldest conscience in the galaxy, possibly the universe. It's billions of years old.

Its mind is composed of the minds of every organic that was ever turned into a Reaper which means a galactic cycle every 50000 years over billions of years with trillions of organics in the galactic community in every cycle...the number is too big to imagine.

 

I think it knows what it is talking about better than we would.

 

 

[Dantriges]

Hmpf, wrong thread, sorry.

[angol fear]

Elon Musk isn't too thrilled with the idea of AI either, calling it the "biggest existential threat to humanity". Bah, but what do these individuals know?

Also, from Musk: "Just because somebody hasn’t experienced or isn’t deeply familiar with an advanced technology doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist".

He can be not so thrilled ( maybe it's his money that isn't thrilled but sure real AI will exist) but the real problem is the way we have taken to create an AI that can learn and evolve : emotion. It's the most dangerous path.

[KaiserShep]

I'm going to need you to expand on that. Your may be the very first post I have seen criticizing the Suicide Mission for more than how impossible it made to feature the ME2 squad.
 
 

It's literally the oldest conscience in the galaxy, possibly the universe. It's billions of years old.
Its mind is composed of the minds of every organic that was ever turned into a Reaper which means a galactic cycle every 50000 years over billions of years with trillions of organics in the galactic community in every cycle...the number is too big to imagine.
 
I think it knows what it is talking about better than we would.

This doesn't really preclude the possibility of it being wrong anyway. After all, it was wrong in its assumption that the Leviathan was completely destroyed, it failed to wipe out every single prothean and most importantly, didn't anticipate that people would be able to slip technology and information under its nose long enough to beat it. It's a fallible and limited entity like everyone else.

[Goodmongo]

On this however, I can't help but feel that you aren't addressing my points so much as talking past them. You're trying to say that I can't be sure of how 'dead' the Reapers are, and that's not the point I'm going for at all. 

 

The point I'm going for is to show that Reaper hardware, after the Destroy wave, is still intact, and the Citadel (i.e. the focus point for the Crucible) can and is rebuilt. We have enough knowledge on the Citadel and the Crucible to rebuild them, especially with what gains we gather from the Reapers.

 

What I'm saying is that your premise that we can gain knowledge from them is flawed.  If they are dead that just might mean all knowledge, all data is gone.  Like me erasing a hard drive.  You make the assumption that just because the physical hard drive is there that the data is also there.  I'm saying that is flawed.  I can give you an old computer of mine that I have completely wiped clean.  Now what can you actually learn?  You can learn how to store data but you will never learn the data I had.  So the premise that the reaper hardware means something is flawed.  It might not mean anything outside of it's physical properties.

 

The error is that it doesn't matter about where the people in the house, so to speak are. It doesn't matter. We don't need the Reapers to be sentient or sapient to harness their technology, rebuild our own, and advance ourselves. The Citadel is a pretty big part of the Catalyst, being its home and all. The thing here is that I think you're overstating the value and importance of the Catalyst on this issue. It's a mouthpiece, an exposition point to tell you what is available to you with the union between the Citadel and the Crucible, and to inform you of the consequences (and benefits) of each possibility. Other than that, it's little more than an active observer. It isn't an integral part of the process, and it realizes this. Thus far, most of your points on the Catalyst have been a non-sequiter.

 

You call my point a fallacy?  You keep insisting that you can learn everything from the reapers even if they have no data left.  Can my dead body tell you my memories?  Can my dead body tell you the combination to my safe?  Somehow you think the dead reapers can.  That is only possible if their data is stored and that storage isn't some type of RAM and is wiped clean when dead.

 

You also diminish the role of the catalyst implying that it is minor to the citadel.  The citadel is the house.  The catalyst is the occupant.  Is my home a pretty big part of who I am?  Of course not.  The catalyst isn't just a mouthpiece but controls things.  Of course it might be lying but taken at its word it is way above simple physical constructs.  It is an AI that can self-program.  It said so when it received new variables and therefore had to change the solution.

 

As well, you're simply missing the point on the Catalyst's retort for Shepard's "you're just an AI" line. It isn't comparing itself to other AI, it's stating that Shepard calling it just an AI, just a machine is a gross over-simplification akin to comparing a human to an animal or beast. It's chastising Shepard for making such a statement, not proclaiming itself to be more advanced (though it undoubtedly is). It's not pertinent to the discussion, but I feel the argument over the semantics here allows me to conclude that you aren't a native English speaker.

 

Otherwise, no the knowledge of the Reapers and their creators would not be lost, namely because the Leviathans still yet live. But even if the Reaper personality, the software, is lost, we still have their technology and their means to assist in advancement. Given that we can repair the Citadel and the Mass Relays in Destroy, we do indeed (contrary to your assertion) have the ability to reverse engineer and use the Reaper technology and knowledge to our advantage.

 

Don't insult me.  I think you aren't comprehending the sentences very well.  You took the sentence figuratively.  I took it literally.  It is a super advanced AI.  You diminish it which is your interpretation of the dialogue.  

 

I still challenge you to answer how the knowledge is not lost if the data is not stored?  The Geth had to have specific data clusters to store their "memories".  Without these Legion said those would be lost.  A physical body or machine can only reveal the secrets of that physical body.  Once again my dead body tells you nothing about the combination to my safe.  So the ONLY possible way to gain this knowledge is if the data is stored.  That is a huge assumption on your part and zero evidence exists that it is around.

 

You also say the Leviathans are still around.  In reaper form only.  Or where are they then?  I doubt if you've done much computer work.  Software or hardware.  The reapers can be viewed just like someone finding a computer.  It's a hunk of metal.  We can figure out how to make a computer but we have no clues what programs to run on it.  We have no clues what programs the original owners ran.  Show me how I'm wrong?  Without data the usefulness is very limited.

 

Someone can steal a physical copy of a F-22 Raptor.  But without the software and without the right fuel the plane won't work.  A simple mechanical devise can be recreated.  One that requires software is useless without the software.

 

 

Yes, I do propose that in the vast wreckage, we can rebuild all of the technology that we have lost. I argue that we do indeed have the knowledge and power, and that we can indeed acquire the technology and insight from the Reapers remains. This is shown through the capability to rebuild both the Citadel and, more importantly, the Mass Relays. If we can rebuild the Mass Relays, we'd have to have some kind of understanding and awareness of Reaper technology. The same goes for the Citadel. On the topic of the ME1 scientists not understanding the Keepers, this is partially because so few people try to understand them after such a time. There was one Salarian scientist, but he had to do everything on his own and had no resources to draw from so to speak (and he was still intelligent and insightful enough to independently come to the conclusion that the Keepers were more than just care-takers and guardians.) And with the proverbial nut of the Citadel cracked open, we actually have the ability to understand much, much more topics. 

 

Otherwise, I don't seem to be understanding what this vague 'power' that you've been referring to is. You're saying that the Reapers and the Catalyst have some kind of power, but aren't defining what it is, or how its lost through destroy (or how it matters in the first place). Thus, I tend to think of it as a non-important trait that isn't factual so much as an attribute that doesn't make much of a difference. 

 

Big deal if we rebuild the house(citadel).  And the relays were meant to be understood by organics.  They built them so organics could understand and use them.

 

The power is akin to an operating system.  You can build a computer but without an operating system it's just some metal and silicon.  The citadel is the computer hardware.  But you have no operating system, no programs to run on it.

 

years back if my car broke down I could fix it rather easily.  It was all mechanical parts.  But now if the main CPU goes out my car doesn't start.  All mechanical parts work just fine.  I can even replace the hardware.  But without the software calibrating the fuel injection system the car doesn't work, or at best works very poorly.  Somehow you just want to ignore this.

 

So "power" is the software that runs everything.  The AI behind it.  The knowledge that is non-mechanical.  The memories, the whatever you want to call it that makes it, it.

 

The last point on if synergy can happen in the future requires further breakdown.  There are two ways for synergy to happen based on the story.

 

1) Through evolution.

2) Through the process that the catalyst said and offered.

 

Now I have no clue how long it will take evolution to do it, but I think I'm safe when I say it will take more than a few centuries since the mutations will take time to go through all species in the whole galaxy.  So that means what will come first:

 

a) This evolutionary process.

orB) War with AI that exterminates organics.

 

Odds are B happens before A.

 

So that leaves us with #2 above.  In my opinion all of the following will need to be recreated in order for #2 to work.

 

1) Organics must be ready and willing.

2) Was Shepard unique or would any ole person do?  We do know they tried it in the past and failed.  I'm from the camp that Shepard was the required ingredient.  If true it fails unless another organic meeting Shepard's uniqueness is found.  If any person will do then no problem I guess.

3) Clearly there is something special in the green wave.  It changes DNA.  That process and software needs to be recreated.  Something has to figure out what DNA structure will work.  And by some process the "energy" from the wave changes the DNA of every organic and synthetic.  This is WAY WAY WAY beyond some simple energy process.

4) Shepard's energy is combined with the energy of the catalyst or reapers or something else.  So where do you get that other "energy" whatever that may be if they are all dead?  And it's clear that "energy" means much more here.  The catalyst explains that Shepard's energy is who he is, and what makes him/her Shepard.  So it is safe to assume that the "energy" from the other side is just as complex.

 

Now I just don't see how it's possible to get all of these ingredients together.  This is way beyond some simple technology reproduction.  You can make the beam/wave but can you program it?  And who knows what else is needed that I left off.

[God]

What I'm saying is that your premise that we can gain knowledge from them is flawed.  If they are dead that just might mean all knowledge, all data is gone.  Like me erasing a hard drive.  You make the assumption that just because the physical hard drive is there that the data is also there.  I'm saying that is flawed.  I can give you an old computer of mine that I have completely wiped clean.  Now what can you actually learn?  You can learn how to store data but you will never learn the data I had.  So the premise that the reaper hardware means something is flawed.  It might not mean anything outside of it's physical properties.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   You call my point a fallacy?  You keep insisting that you can learn everything from the reapers even if they have no data left.  Can my dead body tell you my memories?  Can my dead body tell you the combination to my safe?  Somehow you think the dead reapers can.  That is only possible if their data is stored and that storage isn't some type of RAM and is wiped clean when dead.

 

But the thing is, it's not flawed, it's true. We see it with the ending in Destroy. I could argue about how it isn't flawed inductively, but I don't have to, because deductively, I am correct. This is shown in the ending. 

 

As well, you're really not displaying any understanding at all on the concept of reverse engineering. Look at the Protheans for example. We had no data (you still have not defined what this mythical "data" is that I'm losing or how it's not just relevant, but absolutely essential).

 

The hard drive analogy is incorrect as well, as we do indeed have programming that allows us to recover large portions of data stored on previously erased hard drives. The issue is this: Why are you placing so much emphasis on this 'data' from the Reaper software/consciousness/whatever? It's not that important. 

 

We don't need Reaper 'data' to understand how their technology works. All we need to do is take apart the technology, study it, rebuild it, analyze findings, and produce our own versions. 

 

You're saying that the software is the key. I'm saying the software isn't needed at all, because the tech in the hard drive gives us everything we need about it.

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

No, I'm not calling your point a fallacy. I'm saying that it's not a point at all, but some idea that you've come up with that has no support at all. I keep insisting that we can learn something from the Reapers because the endings show us that we in fact already do. All of them, including destroy. And my argument to this in response is that what you knew or didn't know in life isn't relevant. I don't need your memories or personality. I don't need your memories to open your safe. You keep insisting that there is some type of Data that the Reapers have that only they (while functional) can provide.

 

You have given no example or indication or definition of this at all. Period. 

 

In fact, your point is headcanon, since you are stating that all information from the Reapers will be lost. We do not know if this is even the case or not. You're literally assuming an outcome here, with no factual, in-game evidence to back up your point. 

 

How do you know that the data from the Reapers (and synthetics), aka 'the software/energy/power' is even lost? And if you do know, show me exactly where in the game this information is. No bull****, no bias, no interpretation, but hard evidence.

 

Until that point, I am throwing out your entire premise for having no basis in the lore.

 

You also diminish the role of the catalyst implying that it is minor to the citadel.  The citadel is the house.  The catalyst is the occupant.  Is my home a pretty big part of who I am?  Of course not.  The catalyst isn't just a mouthpiece but controls things.  Of course it might be lying but taken at its word it is way above simple physical constructs.  It is an AI that can self-program.  It said so when it received new variables and therefore had to change the solution.                                                                                                                                                                                                 ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Don't insult me.  I think you aren't comprehending the sentences very well.  You took the sentence figuratively.  I took it literally.  It is a super advanced AI.  You diminish it which is your interpretation of the dialogue.  

 

 

In the context for which you're speaking? Yes, I am implying that the Catalyst is not relevant here. Because it isn't. 

 

Why, because the Catalyst is not controlling the Crucible. It is not creating the means to use it. It is not the device that makes the Crucible work. It is in fact, entirely a mouthpiece for what you, the player through Shepard, and the galaxy that you interact with have created. 

 

Nope. The AI cannot change its mandate. This is implied when the Catalyst states that it has received new information from the Crucible, allowing for the implementation for a new solution for its issue. And then, the part the kills your statement: the Catalyst directly states that it cannot make these solutions happen. Only the Crucible, and an organic being such as Shepard, can make this happen. It cannot change its own solution. It can only serve as a mouthpiece and expository device for said organic being to make the change. 

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

 

Then to be frank, you interpreted it wrong by taking it absolutely literally here. This is a semantics debate now on this point. It's senseless. Learn a thing or too about figurative and symbolic language, then come back to me.

 

I still challenge you to answer how the knowledge is not lost if the data is not stored?  The Geth had to have specific data clusters to store their "memories".  Without these Legion said those would be lost.  A physical body or machine can only reveal the secrets of that physical body.  Once again my dead body tells you nothing about the combination to my safe.  So the ONLY possible way to gain this knowledge is if the data is stored.  That is a huge assumption on your part and zero evidence exists that it is around.                                                                                     ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   You also say the Leviathans are still around.  In reaper form only.  Or where are they then?  I doubt if you've done much computer work.  Software or hardware.  The reapers can be viewed just like someone finding a computer.  It's a hunk of metal.  We can figure out how to make a computer but we have no clues what programs to run on it.  We have no clues what programs the original owners ran.  Show me how I'm wrong?  Without data the usefulness is very limited.

 

 

On what basis are you saying that the data isn't stored? Your own? This is an assumption on your part. I'm not going to argue with you based off an assumption here.

 

The Reapers are not the Geth. This is a non-sequiter argument. 

 

A physical body and a physical machine are not the same. There is information that is ingrained into a hard drive via software. This is why you cannot take information off a disc when it is burned onto it. This is why a hard drive can never truly be erased, because all information left on it leave an imprint, a shadow, on it. 

 

And altogether, I'm not the one making that claim either. You're saying that I am. And then you're saying that there is no evidence for the data to be stored. Which is an assumption true. 

 

What you're not getting though, is that that goes both ways. Let alone that I'm not making that statement, you're also accounting for only one end. There may be no evidence within the game that there is a hard storage for data, but then again, there is no evidence that there isn't a hard storage for this information either.

 

Either way, this point is an assumption. You're assuming both conclusions and proclaiming one to be more true than another. Which isn't the case for either, since they are still both assumptions.

 

That said, and as you've yet to acknowledge, we gain something from the Reapers if we have the capacity to rebuild their relays and their Citadel space station. Whatever information we gain is quite substantial.

 

 

 

 

Uh... the Leviathans are still around. You meet them. You talk to them. You convince them to side with you in the war against the Reapers. There was an entire DLC based around solving the mystery behind them. I'm sorry, but if you don't know this, then you probably could use some of the flak I've been throwing your way.

 

You can find them on the world known as 2181 Despoina. That's where they are. You can see it right here. 

 

I've done a lot of computer work in fact, but that's neither here nor there. I see no need for insults, to parrot off of you. And in my case, it really is rather justified. 

 

Otherwise, this is completely incorrect. The Reapers are more than just hunks of metal. Sovereign showed this. The dead Reaper orbiting the Brown Dwarf showed this. The Reaper found in the Collector base and utilized by Cerberus showed this. EDI was programmed from Reaper programming (which, going by your explanation, should not have been possible). 

 

I think right here, I've very thoroughly showed you how you are entirely, completely wrong.

 

Someone can steal a physical copy of a F-22 Raptor.  But without the software and without the right fuel the plane won't work.  A simple mechanical devise can be recreated.  One that requires software is useless without the software.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Big deal if we rebuild the house(citadel).  And the relays were meant to be understood by organics.  They built them so organics could understand and use them.

 

 

Well, presumably, if they stole an F-22, they'd have all the software that's already uploaded onto the aircraft, and as for Aviation Fuel, it wouldn't be hard to examine what it is that makes it fly. 

 

But the trick of the question is that you're assuming everything requires software. I don't think there's really anything that the Reapers have technologically that really does that's not in the AI department. And we have already shown (via EDI, and presumably Dr. Eva Core) that we do indeed have the ability to utilize Reaper software from destroyed parts. So I really don't see what the point of yours is here. 

 

I'm stating the Software isn't all that important in the gist of what I'm talking about. Let's get that straight.

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

 

That is in fact a very big deal to be able to replicate and utilize Reaper technology to rebuild the Citadel. That right there could unlock the ability for us to create massive, large scale Space constructs that can be used to house millions of people, to build and have lives on those space stations and to release us from having to hold onto physical worlds to inhabit.

 

As for the relays, no, this isn't true (and it's speculated in-game to be intentionally deceptive on the part of the Reapers). The relays are described as very difficult to study and understand. It took the Protheans, who were significantly more advanced than any modern species, decades to unlock the mysteries behind Mass Relays, and years to build just a one-way prototype.They were built not to give organics understanding, but to significantly enhance the speed of each harvesting cycle, to ensure that technology for each organic species would be based off their own (Reaper) technology (and so that the they would be more vulnerable for each successive harvest). The Reapers aren't trying to make us understand, they're trying to make us grow so that we can be harvested.

 

The power is akin to an operating system.  You can build a computer but without an operating system it's just some metal and silicon.  The citadel is the computer hardware.  But you have no operating system, no programs to run on it.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   years back if my car broke down I could fix it rather easily.  It was all mechanical parts.  But now if the main CPU goes out my car doesn't start.  All mechanical parts work just fine.  I can even replace the hardware.  But without the software calibrating the fuel injection system the car doesn't work, or at best works very poorly.  Somehow you just want to ignore this.

 

 

If that's the case, we can just, I don't know, make our own operating system. We have the technology available to us. We have people who are experts in software and programming. It really shouldn't be all that difficult to create our own operating system to work the damn thing. You know that you don't have to work a miracle to bring back anything. You just have to look at the hardware, adapt your own version, and write your own software or operating system that can handle the loads. 

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Yes I do. It's a car. You're using external proofs to justify internal logic of the game (which is assumptive and unsubstantiated). As well, most cars have manual override systems for their ECU that work (and you can make them work as such), making your point rather moot. Granted, without the firmware, you don't have Cruise Control, Anti-theft Control, or Auto-Transmission Control, but those really aren't that essential to a vehicle. Most military wheeled and tread vehicles have none of those (at least in the software area). 

 

That said, you're also assuming that all of this is somehow the same as what we get in the game. It really isn't. Real-world examples have little to no context or bearing here. There's no information in any way that provides any more than an assumption of your point.

 

So "power" is the software that runs everything.  The AI behind it.  The knowledge that is non-mechanical.  The memories, the whatever you want to call it that makes it, it.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

 

And I'm saying that that power, that software, is not as essential as you put on it. We can replicate it ourselves. And you'll have to define what specifically that software or power applies to. What requires software that we can't create ourselves? What is it the Reapers have that we can't make ourselves? Their memories? Who really cares? You don't need their memories to use their equipment, just an understanding of the hardware and physics behind it. If we need software or programming to run the operating systems, we can make our own software system.

 

The last point on if synergy can happen in the future requires further breakdown.  There are two ways for synergy to happen based on the story.

 

1) Through evolution.

2) Through the process that the catalyst said and offered.

 

Now I have no clue how long it will take evolution to do it, but I think I'm safe when I say it will take more than a few centuries since the mutations will take time to go through all species in the whole galaxy.  So that means what will come first:

 

a) This evolutionary process.

or

War with AI that exterminates organics.

 

 

What mutations do we need? The technology is already there, the science is already there, and the Catalyst has stated that we're already ready for synthesis. All we have to do is build the damn thing. 

 

This is why I don't think you speak English as a native speaker: you're now saying that there are special 'mutations' that need to occur for us to be ready for Synthesis. I can't help but feel you're ripping off what I told you about evolution (based off my personal belief that you don't actually understand how evolution functions and thus requiring me to give you a brief rundown on how it works, as I did). You're throwing the word 'mutation' around now, without defining what it means in this context.

 

We already are at a point where Synthesis is possible. We've already come to the point, and we can backtrack to it to make it a possibility again. 

 

All that said, we really don't even need evolution in this equation either. It's not really pertinent here. The issue isn't biological evolution so much as it is technological evolution, and we're here at that step already.

Odds are B happens before A.

 

So that leaves us with #2 above.  In my opinion all of the following will need to be recreated in order for #2 to work.                                                                                                                                     ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________  

 

 

You are assuming a conclusion; this is a logical fallacy, and its a premise I do not accept as there is no evidence to support it. It's an assumption. You have no model on why your conclusion ( is the case instead of (A). By begging the question, you're starting with your conclusion and working to make a theory that fits it. 

 

You have no model here that presents an argument and evidence to support your conclusion. And your conclusion is not self-evident.

 

Point stricken.

 

 1) Organics must be ready and willing.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2) Was Shepard unique or would any ole person do?  We do know they tried it in the past and failed.  I'm from the camp that Shepard was the required ingredient.  If true it fails unless another organic meeting Shepard's uniqueness is found.  If any person will do then no problem I guess.                                                                                                                                                    3) Clearly there is something special in the green wave.  It changes DNA.  That process and software needs to be recreated.  Something has to figure out what DNA structure will work.  And by some process the "energy" from the wave changes the DNA of every organic and synthetic.  This is WAY WAY WAY beyond some simple energy process.                                                4) Shepard's energy is combined with the energy of the catalyst or reapers or something else.  So where do you get that other "energy" whatever that may be if they are all dead?  And it's clear that "energy" means much more here.  The catalyst explains that Shepard's energy is who he is, and what makes him/her Shepard.  So it is safe to assume that the "energy" from the other side is just as complex.

 

 

1) We've already proven that we indeed are ready and willing. The Catalyst states this if you have the EMS score. It need not be everyone in fact, just enough people to make it happen. One person alone can induce Synthesis.

 

2) I think any person would do. We know that the Catalyst did indeed try Synthesis in the past, but we have no knowledge of its means or methods to achieve it beyond the actual Reapers. We also know, for a fact (stated by the Vendetta VI), that the Crucible has never been completed or deployed by any past species in any past cycles, so that whatever means the Catalyst used, it did not involve the Crucible.

 

I do not believe that Shepard is inherently unique in this aspect. You would have to explain how he is. Of course, this is the area of the ending where the writing and narrative begins to fall apart, and we're left with vague statements about the future than actual explanations of what happens. 

 

3) Yes, there is. And then again, this also shows where the writing has broken down to a point where if you have any scientific literacy at all, there isn't a lot of sense to be had here. This is, to be cliche, where the Space Magic comes into play. Alien species, as well as synthetic lifeforms such as EDI and the Geth, do not have DNA. That is a trait that is inherently composed of the biological beings here on Earth. This is never explained at all. Any and all attempts at understanding it fall under speculation and assumption, so I'm not going to make any statement here. I would suggest however, that you don't either. We don't know what the hell is going on. You can make your own idea of what happened, but that idea only has a maximum effective range of your own psyche and whoever accepts it.

 

4) Shepard's 'energy' is combined with the energy of the Crucible, joined to the Citadel. It does not require the Reapers, or the Catalyst's own physical being. The "energy" from the Reapers and the Catalyst is either non-existent, or non-essential and thus non-relevant. 

 

This is also something that isn't very well written. This is delving into an area of pseudo-science that has been thoroughly debunked and discredited, known as Vitalism, a form of Mysticism. It deals with the supernatural, the un-observable, and the un-quantifiable. There is no explanation to what the "organic essence" of Shepard is, or where it resides, or where it comes from. This is where the logic of the ending narrative breaks down into either incoherence or illogical sentiments.

 

But to play ball, Shepard is still combining with the energy of the Crucible and Citadel, not the Reapers and the Catalyst.

 

Now I just don't see how it's possible to get all of these ingredients together.  This is way beyond some simple technology reproduction.  You can make the beam/wave but can you program it?  And who knows what else is needed that I left off.

 

 

It really isn't. Your statement being an appeal to incredulity (logical fallacy ahoy!), it is entirely a matter of technological reproduction. Because that's all it is: Technology. You can program it through understanding and innovation in technology. You can use it through advances and progression of technology. Of hardware. The software, if needed, can come later, and it can come from our own knowledge and technology. 

 

I stand that there is no reason that synthesis (and thus the singularity) is not possible after the Destroy ending.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Characterizing anyone that disagrees with you, that shows the slightest hint of optimism in the face of your relentless, pessimistic cynicism as "childish" is exactly why I don't take anything you say seriously. You're generalizing an entire species and... whatever word describes robots, based on a single example, cherrypicking from all the examples where robots and humans have worked together flawlessly. If I weren't such a nice and wholesome person, I'd say that this is exactly the thought pattern of a racist.

 

New headcanon: angol fear is the Catalyst, and their tireless defense of the endings is just another way of keeping humanity under control.

 

If we shock ourselves do we get to become the new angol_fear?

 

 

[KaiserShep]

We don't need Reaper 'data' to understand how their technology works. All we need to do is take apart the technology, study it, rebuild it, analyze findings, and produce our own versions. 

 

You're saying that the software is the key. I'm saying the software isn't needed at all, because the tech in the hard drive gives us everything we need about it.

 

 

In reality, the only thing that's really lost in terms of data would be more in-depth information on the previous races wiped out by the reapers like 100k years prior, and frankly,  I couldn't really give a warm vorcha dump about that, though being able to extract files that show vids of ancient civilizations being burned to a turn would probably make for good extranet fodder. Their most useful information lies in the crap they physically assembled anyway, not floating around in the file folders of ReapOS. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

In reality, the only thing that's really lost in terms of data would be more in-depth information on the previous races wiped out by the reapers like 100k years prior, and frankly,  I couldn't really give a warm vorcha dump about that, though being able to extract files that show vids of ancient civilizations being burned to a turn would probably make for good extranet fodder. Their most useful information lies in the crap they physically assembled anyway, not floating around in the file folders of ReapOS. 

 

Plus, technology wise everyone has the same tech levels as the current cycle. Tech that becomes obsolete when you can reverse engineer the now available Reaper stuff.

[Dantriges]

Their tech transcends our very understanding.

 

Sorry couldn´t resist.  

[God]

Plus, technology wise everyone has the same tech levels as the current cycle.

 

Well, that's not necessarily true. The Protheans for example are regarded as having been more advanced than any modern Citadel species. Or shoot, look at the Asari, who are regarded as being the most advanced of the current races.

 

I assume this is the case in multiple instances; being based off the same Reaper line of technology as everyone else doesn't mean that you aren't further down the line the someone else. 

 

All that said however, any gains gathered from the knowledge of previous civilizations will pale in comparison to the gains gathered from the Reapers. It will be a technological renaissance totally unseen at any point in galactic history, especially when we start developing and moving past the Reaper technology.

[Goodmongo]

As well, you're really not displaying any understanding at all on the concept of reverse engineering. Look at the Protheans for example. We had no data (you still have not defined what this mythical "data" is that I'm losing or how it's not just relevant, but absolutely essential)…….. edited out to save space.

 

Clearly you have never done much work as a software engineer or programmer.  You make one huge assumption.  The data is intact.  You claim that you can get data from their hard drives.  I’m saying if the hard drive is wiped or is RAM based the data is gone.  I guarantee I can erase a hard drive where no one (FBI, NSA, etc.) can EVER get to it.  And that’s not even considering encryption.

 

Your two fatal flaws are:

1)      Data is recovered.

2)      Data is not as important as hardware.

 

That’s way wrong.  The first is an assumption on your and my part.  But considering that we had plans but still had no idea what the catalyst was this proves my point.  It data in the form of a Prothean VI to tell us what the catalyst was.  This was not known from the “hardware plans”.  So sorry but this shows you’re wrong.  But it’s clear you simply can’t understand how computers actually work.  Your assumption that because data can be extracted from some hard drives does not mean it can be extracted from drives that are wiped clear either through magnetic erasure or another process.

 

Maybe that’s because you think when you hit delete it actually deletes data.  But that’s not how storage devices work.  I can explain in detail for you but it would be a waste of time I think.

 

As for my headcanon I can say the EXACT same thing to you.  Your headcanon is that all knowledge including programs and all data is found.  You have zero proof of this.  It is your belief that this is so.  So if you criticize my belief you are subject to the same criteria.

 

Show me where the software and data is NOT lost.  I can point to one example.  They built the crucible but had no clue how to operate it.  No clue what the catalyst was.  Hardware without an operating system.  Seems to me they lacked “DATA”.  You have nothing on your side.

 

I have to really laugh that the catalyst was useless.  Maybe you forgot that even after the crucible was attached to the citadel Hackett calls Shepard and complains nothing is happening.  Can’t think you forgot that so you must be ignoring that the crucible and citadel without the catalyst is USELESS. 

 

So maybe we have to throw out your entire comment since it’s obviously wrong. 

 

“Only the Crucible, and an organic.”  This is incredible that you would even think this.  The crucible was a tool.  Your statement makes about as much sense as saying “Only a knife and a human can cut a steak.”  I’m wondering now if you know English.  A proper statement would have been; “Only an organic using the crucible can…”

 

“This is why you cannot take information off a disc when it is burned onto it.”  Another incomplete statement.  If the data is stored magnetically a degausser will erase it completely.  If the information is stored in another manner then simply melting or breaking up that storage into small parts means the data can’t be recovered.

 

As for Leviathans I never played the DLC.

 

EDI was programmed while the reapers were still alive.  I never said we didn’t have some knowledge.  I said once they are dead what we don’t know is gone forever.  Not to mention we have no idea what reaper stuff was in EDI.  Maybe it was just a locator beacon or communication device.  It was never mentioned.  You yourself mention that it was very hard to understand the mass relays and the Protheans could only do it one way.  Yet now you seem to claim that it’s easy to understand it because EDI had it.  Sorry can’t have it both ways.

 

You need the fuel to examine it.  What if you don’t have that fuel?  It’s then trial and error.  But I love how you tried to sidestep the issue by saying the software is there.  My question is what if it ISN’T.  That F-22 is useless.  It won’t fly.

 

AI by definition is programming.  It is software.  It is not organic.

 

I offered real world examples because the game doesn’t offer examples for your side or my side outside of the crucible not working without its software.  There was no on/off switch like Hackett hoped for.

 

I love the fallacies that you use.  You say that I must define specifically the software and power otherwise it can be ignored.  Classic fallacy.  Let me use the same fallacy.  Define specifically how a machine like the crucible can be used without the software.

 

But here is a valid question.  Why didn’t the crucible work till the catalyst allowed it to work?

 

Wow your reading comprehension is really poor.  Let me break it down for you once again.

1)      We can wait for evolution to have synthesis

2)      We can use the crucible/catalyst.

 

Mutations clearly are associated with evolution known as choice #1.  Even you can see that organics are not yet in synthesis.  So more mutations are needed if we wait for evolution.  It had zero to do with option #2.  Maybe you understand now?

 

And this is not the place but you need to learn about evolution.  Your previous comment  “Things that haven't evolved over millions of years have not reached the end of evolution, but simply have not had any beneficial or necessary mutations that allow it a greater advantage in whatever environment they thrive in.” is inaccurate.  I can cite a number of species that have reached the end of their evolutionary cycle.  And yet related species still evolved even with the same input to allow greater advantages.

 

EMS doesn’t mean what you claim it to mean.  It is a MILITARY representation.  And if I play multi-player I can have way less assets required to get synergy.  Heck you reach a high enough EMS with 100% from multi-player even if you ignore the Geth, Quarians, sabotage the genophage and many other things.  So that is extremely bogus.  It does NOT reflect organics willingness to evolve.

 

And you make the assumption that “one person alone” can do it.  It is YOUR assumption that anyone can do it.  I can make just as strong an argument that only Shepard can do it.  And you once again use a fallacy that says I have to explain why only Shepard.  I’ll use the same fallacy.  Explain why anyone can and why didn’t the catalyst say this?  Why did the catalyst insist on saying “YOUR energy” and Shepard saying why it needs “MY energy” in the conversations?

 

BTW alien species do have DNA.  The Protheans had DNA the Korgans had DNA.  So clearly you are wrong that it is a trait just for organics from Earth.  I missed the Leviathans because I never had that DLC.  What’s your excuse for missing alien DNA that was mentioned in ME2 and ME3 base games?

 

“It deals with the supernatural, the un-observable, and the un-quantifiable.”  And yet many of the so called best physicists believe in the multi-verse which is the exact same thing.

[KaiserShep]

And this is not the place but you need to learn about evolution.  Your previous comment  “Things that haven't evolved over millions of years have not reached the end of evolution, but simply have not had any beneficial or necessary mutations that allow it a greater advantage in whatever environment they thrive in.” is inaccurate.  I can cite a number of species that have reached the end of their evolutionary cycle.  And yet related species still evolved even with the same input to allow greater advantages.

 

 

Evolution doesn't simply stop, unless the species is dead. Its pace may greatly fluctuate over time and the changes may be much more subtle (the genetic makeup of a tadpole shrimp may vary more than its outward appearance), but this "end of their evolutionary cycle" stuff is a load of coelacanth crap. You can't cite any species at the end of their "cycle", because you can't predict what will happen a week from now, let alone thousands or millions of years.

[KaiserShep]

I'm going to need you to expand on that. Your may be the very first post I have seen criticizing the Suicide Mission for more than how impossible it made to feature the ME2 squad.

 

I admit to having fun with the Suicide Mission on my first go, and while it's great to actually make use of the entire group rather than just the two squaddies at Shepard's side, there are some things about it that makes it look kind of poor in each revisit. It starts strong with the relay jump and oculus battle, but then it starts to fizzle out when we actually fight through the base, because we only get some basic mooks. This is supposed to be Collector HQ, but it just didn't feel that way. The game exhausted its most powerful enemies well before, like the Praetorians. To top it off, it had one of the worst and most ridiculous looking boss battles in the end with the Contra 3 reaper, and then ended that with a terrible choice that rendered the entire base meaningless to the plot of the trilogy. 

[God]

Clearly you have never done much work as a software engineer or programmer.  You make one huge assumption.  The data is intact.  You claim that you can get data from their hard drives.  I’m saying if the hard drive is wiped or is RAM based the data is gone.  I guarantee I can erase a hard drive where no one (FBI, NSA, etc.) can EVER get to it.  And that’s not even considering encryption.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Your two fatal flaws are: 1) Data is recovered. 2) Data is not as important as hardware.

 

 

 

I'm not a software engineer or programmer. But I am an Intelligence Officer (Open/All-Source Intelligence) and former Enlisted Intelligence Collector and Analyst for the United States Army. I know that this is untrue, what you state. You have to physically destroy (no, annihilate) the hard drive to prevent data from being collected. And on the contrary, I 100% guarantee that you sans you actually destroying your hard drive (or tampering with its core information on a level that makes destroying the hard drive effectively redundant), you cannot. As for encryption, I'll leave that to my friends in the Electronic Warfare/SIGINT branch. 

 

But here's the thing: All of this, everything I've said right now above me, isn't prevalent to the discussion, since you're making one huge assumption:

 

That the data is destroyed. I can do that as well here too.

 

Another thing here is that we seem to be talking about hard drives and RAM data, when in truth, we really don't know what we're dealing with. You're describing your own arbitrary limitations on the Reapers, and basing it off your own idea.

 

 

 

 

 

1) No more of a 'fatal' flaw than you assuming it's non-recoverable (and unlike you, my 'fatal' flaw has evidence to back it up.)

 

2) In this case, it really isn't. What's the software function when we have access to the Reaper drive cores? Their weaponry? Their shielding technology? Their physical constructs that are incredibly durable? You have not once stated what it is that makes the software of the Reapers so necessary and important.

 

 

That’s way wrong.  The first is an assumption on your and my part.  But considering that we had plans but still had no idea what the catalyst was this proves my point.  It data in the form of a Prothean VI to tell us what the catalyst was.  This was not known from the “hardware plans”.  So sorry but this shows you’re wrong.  But it’s clear you simply can’t understand how computers actually work.  Your assumption that because data can be extracted from some hard drives does not mean it can be extracted from drives that are wiped clear either through magnetic erasure or another process.

 

 

 

It's good to see you're actually recognizing that you have a chance to be wrong. Otherwise, your point is a non-sequiter. We had no idea what the Catalyst was, because no one expected for it to be its own sapient being. And, more damningly, the Catalyst's nature wasn't known beyond what it was actually (the Citadel). Now, I don't deny that the Prothean data gathered from the Asari museum was important to our understanding of how best to utilize and deploy the Crucible. But that isn't the same as looking at the hard Reaper bodies and determining that their software is more important than the physical gains that you get. Now, considering our past experience with reverse engineering Reaper tech without software, I'd say that we're going to be in for some great experiences.

 

Otherwise, you telling me that I don't know how modern human computers work (which in itself is completely untrue) is not at all related to what the discussion is here. Reapers. This isn't relevant to Reaper information, data systems, hardware, or what Destroy does. So let's stop using examples that don't work, alright? I doubt you will, and considering the flak you're getting from other poster's here, I'm sure that others agree.

 

As for my headcanon I can say the EXACT same thing to you.  Your headcanon is that all knowledge including programs and all data is found.  You have zero proof of this.  It is your belief that this is so.  So if you criticize my belief you are subject to the same criteria.

 

Show me where the software and data is NOT lost.  I can point to one example.  They built the crucible but had no clue how to operate it.  No clue what the catalyst was.  Hardware without an operating system.  Seems to me they lacked “DATA”.  You have nothing on your side.

 

 

So the destroy ending and the relays being rebuilt is headcanon now? I'm not trying to make a claim for my headcanon. I'm making a statement that must have at least several true premises (sans the ones you're imposing, and the language that you're basically turning on me: I've made my statement, and you're not arguing against it. You're now making a statement and arguing at me to prove it false. That's called shifting the burden of proof, and I'm not going to buy it). 

 

This point is a non-sequiter. How does this have to do with the Reapers data information being lost/recoverable in Destroy? Let's keep this on topic. As well, we having no clue how to use the Crucible does not mean we had no software to run it, given that the Geth were used in the process, what with them being software, I still wonder how exactly you're defining software. At this point, I must conclude that it is some ever-changing arbitrary, magical concept that changes to suit your verbal oration on how you don't want to be, not only imprecise at this point, but incorrect. 

 

And for what's on my side, well, the mass relays and the Citadel reconstruction (which you still haven't argued against) are on my side. We had to learn how to do that somewhere.

 

I have to really laugh that the catalyst was useless.  Maybe you forgot that even after the crucible was attached to the citadel Hackett calls Shepard and complains nothing is happening.  Can’t think you forgot that so you must be ignoring that the crucible and citadel without the catalyst is USELESS. 

 

 

 

I never said the Catalyst was useless. That's your word, not mine. But I did say that its importance was not as all reaching as you seem to believe. The Catalyst serves as an expository claimant, a source of information. It tells you what the Catalyst and the Crucible can do now that they're joined, and then proceeds to tell you how to use the hardware to induce whatever solution you choose. The software isn't handling how this works, it's just explaining what you need to do with the hardware. 

 

So maybe we have to throw out your entire comment since it’s obviously wrong. 

 

“Only the Crucible, and an organic.”  This is incredible that you would even think this.  The crucible was a tool.  Your statement makes about as much sense as saying “Only a knife and a human can cut a steak.”  I’m wondering now if you know English.  A proper statement would have been; “Only an organic using the crucible can…”                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

“This is why you cannot take information off a disc when it is burned onto it.”  Another incomplete statement.  If the data is stored magnetically a degausser will erase it completely.  If the information is stored in another manner then simply melting or breaking up that storage into small parts means the data can’t be recovered.

 

 

So you're getting into a statement over semantics! Well this is awesome. Proper rhetoric, while important, is 1) an ad hominem, in the context for which you're using it, and 2) an irrelevant statement as either technical statement is actually acceptable in common English rhetoric.

 

 

 

 

Incorrect. On a hard disc (like a CD, which I said, because Disc implies CD-disc or Blu-ray disc, which I know, because I speak English), data once put in-place cannot be erased without permanently damaging or destroying the disc (as degaussing will do). 

 

Of course, computer tech analysis aside, what has this got to do with the Reapers again? Assuming a conclusion that since you have knowledge in one form of human computer systems, you must know how Reapers work.

 

That's what you're doing.

 

So you've never played the Leviathan DLC. That sucks for you. But don't let your ignorance of the DLC get in the way of facts here. You made a claim that everything in Leviathan didn't happen (presumably because you did not play it). You are incorrect. There is no arguing this. A part of your premise is not merely invalid, but deductively false and untrue. With this information in mind, you need to revise your statement and understanding of the Reapers.

 

EDI was programmed while the reapers were still alive.  I never said we didn’t have some knowledge.  I said once they are dead what we don’t know is gone forever.  Not to mention we have no idea what reaper stuff was in EDI.  Maybe it was just a locator beacon or communication device.  It was never mentioned.  You yourself mention that it was very hard to understand the mass relays and the Protheans could only do it one way.  Yet now you seem to claim that it’s easy to understand it because EDI had it.  Sorry can’t have it both ways.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               You need the fuel to examine it.  What if you don’t have that fuel?  It’s then trial and error.  But I love how you tried to sidestep the issue by saying the software is there.  My question is what if it ISN’T.  That F-22 is useless.  It won’t fly.

 

 

Yes, yes you did say we didn't have 'some knowledge'. That's been your entire premise since this started. EDI was programmed by using parts taken from the Reapers (i.e. hardware). The actual Reapers being alive isn't really of note on that issue. They had nothing to do wither her creation or construction other than their fallen brother being having been cannibalized for EDI's construction.

 

And this is a change of premise with your third sentence: While true, it was not your original premise. Your original premise is that we can't learn anything from destroyed Reapers. Now, I know that the entities inside the Reapers, the beings that were assimilated over the eons, they are gone forever. Those 'souls' or 'essences' or however the game defines them, are dead. My argument is that that information really isn't as valuable to our needs here. I'm not trying to recover that information, I'm trying to rebuild the Reapers physical technology. And with their weapons, shields, drive cores, and relays still more or less physically intact, I believe that we can do so rather easily, and use our understanding to create leaps in other fields, such as technology that would induce a singularity.

 

As for the tech within EDI, no we don't know what was put into her. That said, going by the Reaper IFF and the Thanix Cannon's that we built, we seem to have some understanding of what is inside a Reaper. With the recovered Reaper from the Collector Base, we even seem to know how to utilize the parts of the Reapers power core and hard data system. So uh, yeah, we probably do know what parts we put into EDI. We can't know for sure (as the game never elaborates) but we can make an educated guess.

 

 

 

Well, we know that nearly all jet aircraft (sans older jets) use the same variety of kerosene (heavy diesel) fuel. So, all in all, you need regular jet-fuel. No other form of hydro-carbons are as efficient, and the F-22 is designed to be as maximally efficient with fuel as possible. This doesn't imply a new fuel, lest that be a secret on its datasheet. It's an engine that is able to burn the fuel more efficiently.

 

If the software for that F-22 isn't on the plane, then you're a moron for stealing it from the factory before it's even on the flight line. Of course, there are ways you can overcome that issue and get the plane in the air (given that most fighter jets have a defaulting manual system in the event of an EMP or electronic warfare that disables the electronic system). You're not going to be as effective, but if you get the engine running and can steer the damn thing manually, it'll fly.

AI by definition is programming.  It is software.  It is not organic.

 

I offered real world examples because the game doesn’t offer examples for your side or my side outside of the crucible not working without its software.  There was no on/off switch like Hackett hoped for.

 

I love the fallacies that you use.  You say that I must define specifically the software and power otherwise it can be ignored.  Classic fallacy.  Let me use the same fallacy.  Define specifically how a machine like the crucible can be used without the software.

 

But here is a valid question.  Why didn’t the crucible work till the catalyst allowed it to work?

 

 

1) No question. Also, not relevant.

 

2) Then stop, because they aren't useful at this time. Technically speaking however, there was an on off switch. We had to get the Crucible started somehow. We just didn't know how to physically activate it.

 

3) That's not a logical fallacy. A logical fallacy is a failure in the rhetorical content of an argument. Neither my question, nor your question is a fallacy. It is an interrogative statement. A question. As for my answer: in the context we're talking about, simple: You build the Crucible. You attach it to the Citadel. You turn on the Crucible. You go to the part of the Citadel where the Crucible can be used. You pick an option. You physically interact with that option (one involves a gun). You create solution by said option. No software necessary.

 

4) The Catalyst never 'allowed' the Crucible to work. It couldn't be activated without manually achieving the solution. The catalyst can't 'make' synthesis happen. You need a person to physically jump into the beam. It can't 'make' control happen. You need a person to physically upload themselves on the control pylons. It can't 'make' destroy happen. You need a person to destroy the power regulator. 

 

It's not making or preventing the Crucible from working. The Crucible just needs a person to physically be present and to physically cause an ending. By manipulating the hardware.

 

Wow your reading comprehension is really poor.  Let me break it down for you once again.

1)      We can wait for evolution to have synthesis

2)      We can use the crucible/catalyst.

 

Mutations clearly are associated with evolution known as choice #1.  Even you can see that organics are not yet in synthesis.  So more mutations are needed if we wait for evolution.  It had zero to do with option #2.  Maybe you understand now?

 

And this is not the place but you need to learn about evolution.  Your previous comment  “Things that haven't evolved over millions of years have not reached the end of evolution, but simply have not had any beneficial or necessary mutations that allow it a greater advantage in whatever environment they thrive in.” is inaccurate.  I can cite a number of species that have reached the end of their evolutionary cycle.  And yet related species still evolved even with the same input to allow greater advantages. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         EMS doesn’t mean what you claim it to mean.  It is a MILITARY representation.  And if I play multi-player I can have way less assets required to get synergy.  Heck you reach a high enough EMS with 100% from multi-player even if you ignore the Geth, Quarians, sabotage the genophage and many other things.  So that is extremely bogus.  It does NOT reflect organics willingness to evolve

 

 

 

1) Or, instead, we can actively work towards it. We don't need to wait for evolution to just happen anymore. We can move towards it, work for it, change it, and even guide it.

 

2) We can use the Crucible and the Citadel. Why is the Catalyst even in this? It predicted Synthesis. It explained what it is. But it isn't the determining factor on its actual happening. We aren't ready because the Catalyst makes us ready. We're ready because, on our own, we've proven that we can overcome the Catalyst's solution of the Reapers and can determine a change, a different solution to solve the issue behind the Catalyst.

 

I don't know why you're bringing up mutations at all at this point. They're not prevalent here. I brought them up to explain to you the process of how evolution works. They are no longer prevalent to this. We don't need to sit and wait for the necessary mutation to occur spontaneously (if it ever does). We have the capacity to make that jump, make that change, on our own. We have reached a point where we quite literally can evolve at will. We can artificially/technologically achieve synthesis if we want. The means still exist after Destroy. They still have all the technology that can take us where we need to go, through the Reapers, through the Crucible, and through the Citadel.

 

On your last sentence: Only for the one's that are extinct and dead. As for the other species, that was because the original species was not able to adapt to their changing environment. The subspecies or cousin species was.

 

 

 

EMS is Effective Military Strength; In game, it does, as the EMS rating is indeed essential to what ending you receive. 3100 means you had enough military forces to ensure the Crucible is protected and intact enough to be able to enact Synthesis. Thus we are, functionally, able and willing to reach Synthesis already, prior to Reaper/Catalyst input, and capable of enacting it with the Crucible and the Citadel.

 

And you make the assumption that “one person alone” can do it.  It is YOUR assumption that anyone can do it.  I can make just as strong an argument that only Shepard can do it.  And you once again use a fallacy that says I have to explain why only Shepard.  I’ll use the same fallacy.  Explain why anyone can and why didn’t the catalyst say this?  Why did the catalyst insist on saying “YOUR energy” and Shepard saying why it needs “MY energy” in the conversations?

 

 

Why does the Catalyst say that? Because you're the only organic presently available. You're the only organic there at that moment. It's not about Shepard's 'specialness', it's about him simply being in the right place at the right time. It's never stated that anyone couldn't do it. You can't claim that the Catalyst is implying that Shepard alone is capable of inducing synthesis. It's not stating 'your' as in Shepard, it is stating 'your' as a pronoun. Just as when someone who is not from the U.S. states tells me something along the line of 'your country doesn't like so and so' or 'your country is involved in this or that'. That person isn't speaking about the United States as in it being MY own country that I personally own and am in control of, that person is speaking in terms that I am of that country. The Catalyst is stating 'your' organic energy, as in the essence of an organic, any organic, not just Shepard.

 

And that is not a fallacy, that is a question. Please, use the term correctly. I'm asking you to provide evidence (that is not a fallacy). As for why the 

 

BTW alien species do have DNA.  The Protheans had DNA the Korgans had DNA.  So clearly you are wrong that it is a trait just for organics from Earth.  I missed the Leviathans because I never had that DLC.  What’s your excuse for missing alien DNA that was mentioned in ME2 and ME3 base games? “It deals with the supernatural, the un-observable, and the un-quantifiable.”  And yet many of the so called best physicists believe in the multi-verse which is the exact same thing.

 

 

Where is it ever stated that Protheans and Krogan have Deoxyribonucleic Acid specifically? It is entirely a trait of species for organics on Earth. Why? Because any other statement on this for other species is used as a basic general term for 'genetic' material or 'organic/synthetic' material that's function is analogous to our Earthly (and only Earthly) DNA. It is a rhetorical expression to convey an easier meaning and not distract from the broader point of referring to the biological material that makes up life, not specifically referring to Earth-based organisms.

 

 

 

 

Yes, they do believe. Believe. Not an expression of truth, veracity, or objectivity. A belief is defined as a proposition that finds expression in a statement that is neither true nor false.

 

We believe in the possibility of multiverse theory. We are not, at this time, capable of proving whether or not that belief has any veracity. 

 

Your statement is an appeal to authority. This is a logical fallacy. An appeal to authority is a problematic fallacy, as it states that something must be true because it has been stated or claimed by someone of authority or credibility.

 

The differentiation from it being a fallacy and it being a valid truth is because that person's word alone, without any external evidence, justification, or validation still means that they are correct.

 

These physicists themselves would tell you that your logic and argument is flawed, just because you are taking what they say at face value rather than understanding their position, its limitations, and why they believe in it. 

 

I'm sorry mate, but I think I've eroded your credibility to a point where it no longer matters what your position is on this issue. You've moved this discussion well past the original debate onto other topics that are of tangential relation (at best) to the premise of the original conversation. We're done here.

[Monica21]

You have to physically destroy (no, annihilate) the hard drive to prevent data from being collected.

 

 

So, how does one annihilate a hard drive? Asking for a friend.

[God]

So, how does one annihilate a hard drive? Asking for a friend.

 

Hammer time!

 

Smash it into pieces and break it up as hard as possible.

 

Soak it in acid. 

 

Pour water onto it, then degauss it while having it hooked into something.

 

Bomb it.

 

Don't set it on fire: many commercial hard drives are actually flame and heat resistant to up to 700-900 degrees. 

 

Blend it (you need a blender from Blendtec.)

 

Shoot it, though results are mixed: might not destroy all evidence. 

 

One insurgent tried crapping on one once.

 

And when all else fails: Power Tools.

[CrutchCricket]

I'm neither a software engineer, nor an Intelligence officer but I know enough about how data is stored to chuckle at the thought of crapping on a hard drive.

 

That's neither here nor there, but the point is, you don't actually need to physically destroy the device with such prejudice. Zeroing the drive, or better yet filling it with random data, possibly on several passes, works just as well. Physically destroying it is just the government mindset of "it's not dead until I see daylight through its chest". Which, in this case I don't blame. The costs are far below the risks.