1)Would bard2/barbarian2/rogue1 human get xp penalty? What about Bard5/barbarian4/rogue3? Is bard/barbarian/rogue viable class?
2)If I play some module with two characters/players/party of two with a bard/barbarian or bard/rogue, what class would compliment my bard as second character? Bard/barbarian and rogue/wizard or bard/rogue and some fighter class or bard and cleric?
1)Would bard2/barbarian2/rogue1 human get xp penalty? What about Bard5/barbarian4/rogue3?
Is bard/barbarian/rogue viable class?
Well, you can probably manage with anything, but having a cleric around is always good, and both the cleric and the bard can benefit from each other's buffs. If playing at low levels, which is the case for most modules, fighter is another good option, but a team consisting of a bard and rogue/wizard may be a bit too squishy.Bard/barbarian and rogue/wizard or bard/rogue and some fighter class or bard and cleric?
I've played the OC and MotB as a 'bard-barian', and he was a lot of fun. Red dragon disciple complimented him nicely, although his bard skills were limited to some minor buffing spells and the occasional inspiration. He cared more about hitting things than wooing them with song.
Barbarian / rogue would seem to require spreading ability scores too thinly. You'd want constitution and strength to get the most out of a barbarian, but dexterity and intelligence to get the most out of a rogue.
Not really, you can easily have 16-18 STR and 14 or so in the other three, which is good all-around. Barbarians get a fair amount of skill points per level and few class skills, so it's not a bad idea to take a couple of rogue levels and spend those points on traps and locks skills or whatever.Barbarian / rogue would seem to require spreading ability scores too thinly. You'd want constitution and strength to get the most out of a barbarian, but dexterity and intelligence to get the most out of a rogue.
Not really, you can easily have 16-18 STR and 14 or so in the other three, which is good all-around. Barbarians get a fair amount of skill points per level and few class skills, so it's not a bad idea to take a couple of rogue levels and spend those points on traps and locks skills or whatever.
The problem with 'all-rounders' is that they can do a little bit of all sorts of things, but don't do any single thing particularly well. In a party-based game I'd rather concentrate on having each party member do something well, and have them rely on other party members to cover their deficiencies.
When I do multi-class with base classes, it's usually with classes that compliment each other by sharing common skills and a main ability score. A ranger/rogue archer with high dexterity, for instance, can continue to pour skill points into hide, search, and move silently no matter what class they level up in. A ranger/barbarian who specialises in melee combat (especially two-handed weapons using Favoured Power Attack) would have high strength and be able to increase their survival and crafting skills at every level. That way at least some skills can be maximised, and you can concentrate on increasing one ability score exclusively.
I wholeheartedly disagree, at least regarding my suggestion. It doesn't fight any worse than a normal barbarian (and attributes would be pretty similar), 14 INT is pretty standard for a rogue, and unless locks are unusually hard to open, 14 DEX (or 16 even) should do the job. STR-based rogues are old news, and in this game, a pure rogue isn't better at traps and locks than a rogue 1/whatever 29.The problem with 'all-rounders' is that they can do a little bit of all sorts of things, but don't do any single thing particularly well.
You only need to increase STR as you level up in my example. The rest of the attributes are fine as they are.That way at least some skills can be maximised, and you can concentrate on increasing one ability score exclusively.
A rogue is more than a lock/trap monkey. A barbarian / rogue with a low number of rogue levels would have to concentrate on just two or three skills (open lock, disable device, search) to make their rogue levels worthwhile, missing out on conversation skills like diplomacy and bluff (which in the OC you can't farm out to other party members), hide, lore, move silently, tumble and use magic device. Whereas a pure rogue, or a rogue who multi-classes with a more compatible base class, has lots of skill points to pour into many skills.
Craft weapon, intimidate, listen and taunt are the only skills barbarians and rogues have in common. You would have to rely on intimidate to be your only conversation skill - which I suppose would make sense for a barbarian / rogue from a role-playing perspective. Listen is fairly useless, and I can never be bothered activating taunt (I leave it to companion AI to decide if they want to use it or not).
I prefer my rogues to make DEX their primary ability score to boost their hide, move silently, open locks and tumble skills, as well as their armour class and reflex saves. I suppose you could rely on magical equipment to boost your DEX - but a pure rogue could use such equipment AND have it stack with their own ability score. Then again, a barbarian / rogue probably won't have most of those rogue skills (the poor dumb lummox), and medium or heavy armour only benefits from a certain amount of DEX.
One thing a barbarian / rogue *does* have going for them is the fact that open lock is one of the few DEX-based skills that isn't affected by armour check penalties, so you can tank-up without ruining the few rogue skills you've actually put points into.
It often is a lock/trap monkey, but okay. A human rogue 1/barbarian 29 (more rogue would add more skill points, and let's ignore shadowdancer, which would make sense, but add a few skill points as well) with 14 INT can max Open Lock, Disable Device, Search, Diplomacy, Hide, Move Silently and Tumble, plus enough UMD to use any restricted gear, plus ~10 leftover points.A rogue is more than a lock/trap monkey. A barbarian / rogue with a low number of rogue levels would have to concentrate on just two or three skills
Craft weapon, intimidate, listen and taunt are the only skills barbarians and rogues have in common.
Common skills hardly matter: Able Learner.
I agree with Arkalezth on this.
A rogue 1/Skilled warrior(Ra/Brb/SB) X + Able Learner feat, removes the need for a pure rogue, or even more than 1 level splash.
My favorite character to play is a Rogue 1/Ranger X with Able learner. A Human Ranger with 14 int can max 9 skills, making Rogues irrelevant.
Unless I was playing a Rogue specific mod, I would always use a Rogue Splash on a skilled warrior instead. In standard party based Modules, stealth is usually almost pointless, and the Rogue IS reduced to Lock/Trap monkey, and even a Rogue/Fighter could max those.
Rogue Splash also fully opens up Tumble to lower AC, potentially making him a better fighter than a pure fighter.
I'm of the opinion (and opinions, by their very nature, can't be wrong 
) that a few levels of rogue will water down a barbarian, without granting you all of the advantages of being a rogue. Then again, I'm the sort of person who prefers to do things properly or not at all.
However I'm not averse to the inverse; a majority rogue who takes a few levels of barbarian. Rogue levels might 'water down' a barbarian, but a couple of barbarian levels (especially very early on) can be an advantage to a rogue. Extra hit points (which are useful at very low levels), 10% speed increase (for running away in an un-barbarian but very rogue-like manner), and a rage ability to fall back on in case you're ever forced into melee combat. Plus access to shields, medium armour, and martial weapons without having to take separate feats to acquire them. Not that you're likely to use the latter two in a DEX-based archer or finessing rogue, but I've played some melee-oriented rogues who have benefitted from being able to equip a shield when extra AC is required (although they've had to 'waste' a feat to do so).
A few levels of Rogue (by which I take it to be 1-4) loses you 1 BAB, while giving you access to a host of useful skills (and Evasion). However, a few levels of Bard also gets useful skills, plus spells and doesn't harm your AB, so unless you particularly need to pick locks and disable easy traps it may be a better option. I'd never take both however.
Barbarian on a Rogue? You need 16 Rogue levels to get all the goodies (presuming you're going to level 30) plus you need HiPS and you generally want PTWF as well. Barbarian doesn't help you attain any of these things.
"I'd never take both however."
Why not both? I wouldn't splash both as there is some redundancy in that, but I would go full bard with a Rogue splash. Actually I did that last night before reading this.
I was looking at a module where you start with a party of 10th level chars. You can pick them up right away in town, or you can build your own. Most are straight classed, so I am mostly going to build my own ( I don't think the provided chars have any significant scripting or quests - Black Scourge of Candle Cove).
So last night I made my skill monkey. He is a Human: Ro 1, F 1, Bard 8.
Rogue Splash gave access to all the Rogue skills, Fighter Splash all weapons and Armor, plus free feat (Blindfight). Now I have a skill monkey with an incredible array of open skills (Able Learner), and lots of skill points (Bard, human, 14 int) and the charisma to back up his conversation skills, and can help as backup fighter (18 natural strength at level 10, + Mithral Plate), with wonderful party support bard spells and abilities (inspirations and Curse song).
Most are straight classed, so I am mostly going to build my own ( I don't think the provided chars have any significant scripting or quests - Black Scourge of Candle Cove).
No special scripting for them, and only one hidden quest, but your involvement in it is minimal. You'll only miss out on some character interactions, mostly with townsfolk. (This may change in expansions.)
I was referring to both as splashes, but I still think that mixing the two classes is sub-par except in very specific circumstances, e.g. you are playing Solo and absolutely have to have Rogue skills and want to play a Bard.
If you have a team, there are better classes to mix with Rogue and better classes to mix with Bard - e.g. simply 2 Fighter levels rather than F1/Ro1, gets you an extra Feat and an extra BAB. You can push Str & Cha without worrying about the other Stats so much, and so on. For the Rogue, I might mix with Fighter or Ranger - the addition of Tumble & UMD is worth losing the BAB on a high BAB build and also makes HiPS possible.
I was referring to both as splashes, but I still think that mixing the two classes is sub-par except in very specific circumstances, e.g. you are playing Solo and absolutely have to have Rogue skills and want to play a Bard.
If you have a team, there are better classes to mix with Rogue and better classes to mix with Bard - e.g. simply 2 Fighter levels rather than F1/Ro1, gets you an extra Feat and an extra BAB. You can push Str & Cha without worrying about the other Stats so much, and so on. For the Rogue, I might mix with Fighter or Ranger - the addition of Tumble & UMD is worth losing the BAB on a high BAB build and also makes HiPS possible.
In any unknown module, I always want to have the Rogue Skills, unless it says: no traps/locks. In any party situation, I always want to have a Bard along, for party support.
So then it becomes which char do you give Rogue splash to?
Wiz? No way do I want to dilute spell casting.
Cleric? Ditto
Fighter or Bard?
Depends what you want to do with your fighter. As I said earlier in the thread, I often go Ro 1/Ra X, and the Ranger skillpoints provide adequate extra to cover it, so I think that is an excellent place for a Rogue splash.
But this time I am building a Wood Elf Ra/F/FB, and I didn't want to delay getting FB, and I am going for a very strong Wood Elf (20 to start), so I don't have the intelligence or Human bonus to skills and very few ranger levels, so Rogue splash here would be an impediment and not that effective. Also keeping PA active all the time, so I want all the BAB I can get, hitting more with the heavy guns, rather than the back up fighting bard.
I also don't see much downside to giving the Rogue splash to a highly skilled bard, with good charisma (synergy with conversation skills).
I agree. One character should always have Rogue *skills* (you can get these to a reasonable level without Rogue OFC). FighterX/Ro1-2 is a good build. It's better than pure Fighter due to access to skills (and maybe Evasion -> the buggy Expose Weakness). OTOH if you want to add to Bard then you want more Feats, more Str, more AC, more AB, more damage. These are gotten via Fighter, BG and RDD. Rogue is a distraction.
BTW a level of Bard (or more, maybe +RDD) works very well with Cleric.
Ra/F/FB - yuk. What is Ranger doing for F/FB? Better a level or two of Rogue.
Ra/F/FB - yuk. What is Ranger doing for F/FB?
Pretty much what he said. Favored PA. To add to the FB EPA, some other skills and flavor,and really hurts nothing. Full BAB means I get FB one level sooner than if I had Rogue level in here.
Getting things one level sooner might not matter much on Player worlds where everyone seems to start at epic level, but it matters when playing lower/mid level modules and you are waiting on those abilities.
Getting FB as fast as I can still means level 11 before I get the best feature: EPA. That means I still wait one level in a this level 10 mod. Throwing in a Rogue splash would mean waiting 2 levels.
Also not seeing the Yuk.
Adding a FE is good when you know exactly what you're facing. But then in that case it's a lot easier anyway.
I've been wondering what Ranger / Fighter / Weapon Master would be like, specialising in a two-handed weapon and making good use of the Favoured Power Attack feat, with strength the dominant ability score. You'd want to know what sort of creatures you can expect in a campaign or module though. At epic levels when your attack bonus is through the roof, you could even have some fun taking Monkey Grip and wielding two large weapons at the same time. Although if your only two-weapon fighting feats come from your ranger levels, then you'd be restricted to light armour (or mithral medium armour). Adding Frenzied Bezerker into the mix at epic levels for Supreme Cleave could be a hoot.
Imagine a character with seven levels of WM and a host of weapon focus/specialisation feats supreme-cleave-critical-hitting while using Favoured Power Attack with a two-handed weapon! You might be a long time waiting for such a conjunction of coincidence, but I'm guessing it'd be worth it.
F/FB/WM with EPA/IPA and a high crit multiplier is hard to beat for inherent damage. OFC when you get WMDs the number of attacks becomes more important.
Adding a FE is good when you know exactly what you're facing. But then in that case it's a lot easier anyway.
I hate Undead, crit immune and often damage resistant, and there always seems to be a lot around...
I've been wondering what Ranger / Fighter / Weapon Master would be like, specialising in a two-handed weapon and making good use of the Favoured Power Attack feat, with strength the dominant ability score.
I know a person on a server that made a STR-based Wild Elf Ranger/Weapon Master with a Spear (RP build). With the Power Attack Weapon Style from Kaedrin's Pack.
Add a Natural Bond, Improved Natural Bond (Kaedrin's) and Epic Animal Companion and you have a full leveled companion on top.
HIPS Favoved Power Attack crits with a Spear dealing 17-20/x4 and Bane of Enemies is nothing to sneeze at.
Also Favored Enemy with Undead and Elves (Drow).
I've pretty much lost interest in HIPS, at least as far as the official campaigns go. I've created a few characters with a single level of Shadowdancer, thinking that HIPS would be useful, and I never actually got around to using it.
The one time I thought it might be necessary was with a Halfling ranger / rogue slinger in the OC. I thought I'd need it to face "Mr Green" in the arena, but no matter how many times I used it (always disengaging from combat first) he behaved as if he had True Seeing and just kept on coming for me. I ended up beating him quite easily without it anyway - a sling, a belt of strength, high dexterity, rapid shot and point blank shot were more than enough to do the job. I *did* have to run about a bit when he pulled his final trick, but that's a perfectly acceptable tactic for a Halfling facing a man-mountain. 
Just last night I experimented with a ranger (3) / fighter (6) / weapon master (7). He only needed one level of ranger to qualify for Favoured Power Attack (he took the feat on a fighter level), but I dislike characters that only take a single level of a base class. Besides - those extra ranger levels allowed me to build up some useful skills.
I ran him though the module I'm currently working on, choosing giants as his favoured enemy, and picked some fights on the overland map. His very first FPA hit with a greatsword against a hill giant was a critical hit in the high 70s.
I've pretty much lost interest in HIPS, at least as far as the official campaigns go. I've created a few characters with a single level of Shadowdancer, thinking that HIPS would be useful, and I never actually got around to using it.
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