19 réponses à ce sujet

[Aren]

He know on how to perform the joining , there are different versions of the joining,the most complete being obviously the joining that requires both Lyrium,drop of archdemon blood and of course the darkspawn blood.

According to Gaider both the drop of AD blood and the lyrium

(which is not used to slow the effect of the taint within the body is used to improve the potency of the taint to start the process,the resistance lies within the non tainted blood,not in the lyrium) are not necessary to make a GW they just improve the potency and the efficiency of the ritual.

SO now after that Loghain is Dead/recruited there is still time before the final battle,why he did not create more GW?

AD drop as i said is not necessary is just an a plus,Darkspawn blood is fundamental,and for certain there was a lot of darkspawn blood during the 5th blight.

[sylvanaerie]

It's purely for plot reasons, there can only be the PC and the "Other" Warden, either Loghain or Alistair to deal with the Archdemon, or else Riordan wouldn't die and he'd be taking the final blow.  This becomes more essential when you consider the PC may be in love with Alistair.  A sacrifice must be made in order to resolve the story.  Someone either dies or someone must give up a child to Morrigan and 'never see it again'.  If there were 2, 4, or more wardens that choice becomes a lot easier.  "Well, Joe there is a warden too, just joined last week and he can give you a baby..." or "Well, old Harvey there, he can have the honor of the killing blow, I wasn't that attached to him anyway."

 

For no other reason than "It's in the script".

 

Certainly, there had to have been more Joining Mojo juice in that warehouse aside from one solitary vial.

 

Actually with all the exposure your companions get, if all it takes is darkspawn blood, I wonder why there aren't more accidental wardens running around.  I think it takes Lyrium and some preparation of the mixture instead of just darkspawn blood.  Yet, all that killing and exposure (especially for Dog who uses a bite as one of his weapons) doesn't result in anyone even getting sick.  Plot reasons.

[Aren]

 

 

Actually with all the exposure your companions get, if all it takes is darkspawn blood, I wonder why there aren't more accidental wardens running around.  I think it takes Lyrium and some preparation of the mixture instead of just darkspawn blood.  Yet, all that killing and exposure (especially for Dog who uses a bite as one of his weapons) doesn't result in anyone even getting sick.  Plot reasons.

yea even if they are bites from the AD himself    

DAA has handled this aspect better than DAO,there was a time during the development of DAO the idea of all companions being possible GW,but that get eliminated for plot reason and of course for characters development.

[Mike3207]

Wasn't it said there's just enough Archdemon blood for one more Joining?Without the AD blood, you can't induct new Wardens.

 

There seems to be all you need in Awakening however. Either some was kept at the fort, or they were really good getting the blood from the Archdemon to the fort.

[Aren]

Wasn't it said there's just enough Archdemon blood for one more Joining?Without the AD blood, you can't induct new Wardens.

 

There seems to be all you need in Awakening however. Either some was kept at the fort, or they were really good getting the blood from the Archdemon to the fort.

AD blood is not necessary to make GW,they use only a drop to improve the potency.

[andy6915]

AD blood is not necessary to make GW,they use only a drop to improve the potency.

 

No, it is needed. Dialogue makes that explicitly clear.

[andy6915]

Despite it looks like there's time after you recruit Loghain, there really isn't. You can take advantage of skipped side quests, but once you hit Redcliffe, the final battle begins. He would have had to start recruiting for the battle before the Landsmeet, but was captured so it he was unable to do anything until you rescue him.

 

Also people wonder how we get the Darkspawn blood for Loghain, and maybe it's just my game, but have you ever noticed when you get the 3 vials in the Wilds, you always get a forth that becomes a plot item?

 

I never pick that one up. No sense adding an extra item to the inventory, even if plot items don't actually add to the total.

[Aren]

No, it is needed. Dialogue makes that explicitly clear.

What?

DAO is full of plot holes don't use that game as a valid source,everything in there was to build the moment of the US vs Dark ritual

That could have been many GW at redclieffe not just 3 of them.

No,is not necessary there is nothing "special" into the drop of AD blood used during the joining it only improves the potency.

http://forum.bioware...erelden/#576564

 

Gaider post:

 

 

The flaw in your story is that simply drinking darkspawn blood does not make one a Grey Warden. Most likely Joseph would come down with the blight and become a ghoul in short order. The villagers would have found him delerious and sick with fever, and if he survived he would have disappeared one night and never been seen again.

Becoming a Grey Warden requires a dose of the darkspawn corruption in sufficient potency that it immediately affects someone, rather than slowly enough to sicken them. Archdemon blood can be used (though is understandably much rarer), but any darkspawn blood can be magically treated to make it work. Your rank-and-file darkspawn simply doesn't have enough of the corruption within him to do the trick... though who knows? If he drank enough, maybe it might work. I don't doubt a story of an "accidental" Grey Warden could be justified, although it would take some doing

[Illegitimus]

But Riordan didn't have a Warden mage handy to cast whatever the concentration spell is, so while the demon blood may not technically be the only way, it's the only way Riordan had.  

[Aren]

But Riordan didn't have a Warden mage handy to cast whatever the concentration spell is, so while the demon blood may not technically be the only way, it's the only way Riordan had.  

A warden mage to do what?

remember that Duncan use mages of the circles to complete the joining for the lyrium,you don't need specifically a GW mage,beside i already said that neither Lyrium,neither AD blood are necessary.

[andy6915]

What?

DAO is full of plot holes don't use that game as a valid source,everything in there was to build the moment of the US vs Dark ritual

That could have been many GW at redclieffe not just 3 of them.

No,is not necessary there is nothing "special" into the drop of AD blood used during the joining it only improves the potency.

http://forum.bioware...erelden/#576564

 

Gaider post:

 

 

The flaw in your story is that simply drinking darkspawn blood does not make one a Grey Warden. Most likely Joseph would come down with the blight and become a ghoul in short order. The villagers would have found him delerious and sick with fever, and if he survived he would have disappeared one night and never been seen again.

Becoming a Grey Warden requires a dose of the darkspawn corruption in sufficient potency that it immediately affects someone, rather than slowly enough to sicken them. Archdemon blood can be used (though is understandably much rarer), but any darkspawn blood can be magically treated to make it work. Your rank-and-file darkspawn simply doesn't have enough of the corruption within him to do the trick... though who knows? If he drank enough, maybe it might work. I don't doubt a story of an "accidental" Grey Warden could be justified, although it would take some doing

 

Well then, batty as this may sound, Gaider is wrong. Or the game is wrong. The dialogue in-game contradicts Gaider's words, so we have ourselves a plot hole if he's right. So either the dialogue written by the writers was confused and wrote it wrong, or Gaider himself is confused. It's one or the other, there's no third possibility. Personally, I'm going with Gaider being wrong. It's not just in-game, I seem to recall Last Flight also mentioning something about archdemon blood being needed.

 

edit:

 

Ah.

 

https://books.google...wIVhBoeCh3uKAy-

 

"It took only a drop of Archdemon's blood to seal the joining."

 

It doesn't matter where you look, archdemon blood being needed is the case in every single bit of actual canon there is... Which Gaider's words contradict.

[Callidus Thorn]

Unless Archdemon blood serves as a shortcut to avoid a lengthier, more dangerous that the Wardens no longer use? I mean, the first grey Wardens had to come from somewhere, or the first blight couldn't have been stopped. It doesn't seem too likely that they had access to Archdemon blood at that point, so the Joining must have used regular darkspawn blood, treated somehow, possibly involving blood magic. So while it would be possible, without a Warden mage it's not something that they could do.

[andy6915]

Unless Archdemon blood serves as a shortcut to avoid a lengthier, more dangerous that the Wardens no longer use? I mean, the first grey Wardens had to come from somewhere, or the first blight couldn't have been stopped. It doesn't seem too likely that they had access to Archdemon blood at that point, so the Joining must have used regular darkspawn blood, treated somehow, possibly involving blood magic. So while it would be possible, without a Warden mage it's not something that they could do.

 

You don't have to kill something to get its blood. They fought that damn thing many times and even killed it many times, but it just kept corpse jumping to survive. Think about dragon fights in DAI and how much blood just pours out of the wounds on the legs, think about the big pools of blood at its feet even midway through the battle. You don't need to completely defeat an archdemon to get its blood, the thing probably lost several gallons of the stuff in every battle.

[Callidus Thorn]

You don't have to kill something to get its blood. They fought that damn thing many times and even killed it many times, but it just kept corpse jumping to survive. Think about dragon fights in DAI and how much blood just pours out of the wounds on the legs, think about the big pools of blood at its feet even midway through the battle. You don't need to completely defeat an archdemon to get its blood, the thing probably lost several gallons of the stuff in every battle.

 

Well, a dragon isn't an Old God, and there were no blood pools like that in DAO when fighting the Archdemon. In The Calling we get an account of how much the Wardens were changed when the taint was accelerated, and considering how much they changed there's no telling what it did to an Old God's physical form.

 

And nothing you've said precludes my suggestion that Archdemon blood serves only as a shortcut. We know that blood magic can be used to manipulate the taint, so it's possible that Archdemon blood could simply bypass the need for its use(potentially explaining the inclusion of lyrium), making the process of creating Wardens easier.  For all we know Wardens were first created by drinking a couple of gallons of specially prepared darkspawn blood. There are alternative explanations before jumping to the assumption that the writers or Gaider are wrong. And, let's be honest here, your quote from The Last Flight doesn't actually mean anything. Unless you can provide some context otherwise, it only points to the presence of Archdemon blood in the process, and says nothing of its necessity.

[Yaroub]

Well, a dragon isn't an Old God, and there were no blood pools like that in DAO when fighting the Archdemon. In The Calling we get an account of how much the Wardens were changed when the taint was accelerated, and considering how much they changed there's no telling what it did to an Old God's physical form.

 

And nothing you've said precludes my suggestion that Archdemon blood serves only as a shortcut. We know that blood magic can be used to manipulate the taint, so it's possible that Archdemon blood could simply bypass the need for its use(potentially explaining the inclusion of lyrium), making the process of creating Wardens easier.  For all we know Wardens were first created by drinking a couple of gallons of specially prepared darkspawn blood. There are alternative explanations before jumping to the assumption that the writers or Gaider are wrong. And, let's be honest here, your quote from The Last Flight doesn't actually mean anything. Unless you can provide some context otherwise, it only points to the presence of Archdemon blood in the process, and says nothing of its necessity.

 

 

 

He is right you know, the wardens killed Dumat several times and could've get access to his blood more than once, still the argument could last all we like, until the matter is stated by the writers.

 

 

Some time after -305 Ancient (890 TE) Dumat was killed by a group of Ander soldiers while he was on the run from a Warden offensive but the celebrations were cut short when Dumat returned unharmed. In the years that followed, scholars learned that the Archdemon's death had only forced its soul to relocate into the body of the nearest darkspawn.

Dumat was finally slain by Grey Wardens at the Battle of Silent Fields in -203 Ancient (992 TE), the Wardens having learned by that point that only a death blow dealt by one of their Order would prevent the Archdemon's resurrection in a new host body. Records do not say who exactly gave up his soul to destroy Dumat, for many Wardens struggled against him, and the Archdemon's very death throes slew seven or more of them

The First Blight Dumat led was unparalleled in its devastation, and is remembered in history as the longest and bloodiest Blight in recorded history. Dumat's darkspawn horde very nearly overran Thedas and annihilated its people; the arrival of the Grey Warden order was what turned the tide of the war, and even then it took the sacrifice of many Wardens to slay Dumat and drive back the darkspawn host.

Evidence suggests Dumat lives on in some form. There are those who still worship him faithfully, such as Corypheus once did, and it has been shown that those who are faithful to him and call upon him for aid receive it more often than not in the form of imbued magical power, or even physical items if sacrifices are made.

[Illegitimus]

 

A warden mage to do what?

remember that Duncan use mages of the circles to complete the joining for the lyrium,you don't need specifically a GW mage,beside i already said that neither Lyrium,neither AD blood are necessary.

 

 

Duncan had archdemon blood.  

[Callidus Thorn]

He is right you know, the wardens killed Dumat several times and could've get access to his blood more than once, still the argument could last all we like, until the matter is stated by the writers.

 

And as I pointed out, that doesn't mean anything. We're told that the first Grey Wardens drank darkspawn blood. That's all.

 

We have a clear statement about what is needed to create a Grey Warden: "Becoming a Grey Warden requires a dose of the darkspawn corruption in sufficient potency that it immediately affects someone" and that "any darkspawn blood can be magically treated to make it work.", courtesy of Gaider. And we know what happens to someone not given a sufficiently concentrated dose of the corruption.

 

As I pointed out, the quote from The Last Flight is effectively meaningless because it's utterly devoid of context. So what we have is DAO dialogue versus Word of Gaider. Frankly, more than that is required to assert that either Gaider or the writers are wrong, considering that the plot of DAO meant that no other Wardens could be recruited, so a plot device was needed to explain the lack of a Warden recruitment drive. The fact that the plot of Origins didn't allow for it doesn't make what Gaider said incorrect.

[Aren]

Well then, batty as this may sound, Gaider is wrong. Or the game is wrong. The dialogue in-game contradicts Gaider's words, so we have ourselves a plot hole if he's right. So either the dialogue written by the writers was confused and wrote it wrong, or Gaider himself is confused. It's one or the other, there's no third possibility. Personally, I'm going with Gaider being wrong. It's not just in-game, I seem to recall Last Flight also mentioning something about archdemon blood being needed.

 

edit:

 

Ah.

 

https://books.google...wIVhBoeCh3uKAy-

 

"It took only a drop of Archdemon's blood to seal the joining."

 

It doesn't matter where you look, archdemon blood being needed is the case in every single bit of actual canon there is... Which Gaider's words contradict.

Gider can't be wrong in matter that concern his own setting,especially the taint and the AD,he can be wrong on characters actions or timeline,but not on something he wrote himself,like the idea of the GW and the taint.