All for naked elves! That's all I have to say. Thank you.
Since the deaths in DA come with little or no consequences let's make the sex count! Seriously, I hate killing in games just because you can so since that has become the norm let's at least have it countered with some steamy sexy scenes.
Cassandra has a pillow talk with the Inquisitor where you can see her bare breasts. That's certainly important within the context of the romance. It makes perfect sense that they would be naked after sex, and I see no reason why they should go out of their way to avoid showing nudity.
How exactly are Cassandra's breasts important in the context of the conversation or the romance?
How exactly are Cassandra's breasts important in the context of the conversation or the romance?
Give me one good reason why they should go out of their way to not show nudity. It's not a rhetorical question and I'm not being sarcastic. Honest.
Just try to make it something I haven't heard already. What if you want kids to play the game? That's what ratings are for. You can either ignore them or go for a more appropriate game. What if it makes some people uncomfortable? That's not an argument. It's all subjective; everything everywhere has someone somewhere who finds it offensive or off-putting or whatever.
How exactly are Cassandra's breasts important in the context of the conversation or the romance?
The way I see it, it's basically the only moment in the entire game where Cassandra is totally exposed and vulnerable, physically and emotionally, which is a heavy contrast with her consistently on-guard and closed-off persona. I see no particularly meaningful reason not to present the scene as it was.
Cassandra has a pillow talk with the Inquisitor where you can see her bare breasts. That's certainly important within the context of the romance. It makes perfect sense that they would be naked after sex, and I see no reason why they should go out of their way to avoid showing nudity.
Though their games could hardly be called hardcore (which makes it all the more surprising that anyone takes issue with them, I'd add) I've never gotten the impression young teens were their intended audience.
And anyway, it's in the box. The game's got "Blood, Partial Nudity, Sexual Content, Strong Language, Violence" stamped on the front. You can't open the box and then complain you found just that.
I was talking about the actual sex scene. The stuff after could either be clothed or not depending on the choice of the player. I don't see why having a filter you don't have to use(and I wouldn't use) is so offensive to you. I mean, there's a filter for gore in Dragon Age already and that's mentioned on the box too.
The only solid counter-argument I've seen(and even argued in favour of) is that it likely wouldn't be financially viable. However for things that it would be, I don't see why it's so terrible to have the option.
When I say adults only I mean the actual ESRB rating, which going all out on explicit content would very likely get them that. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are M rated games, not AO.
Well, do correct me if I'm wrong, but you said that:
Which would imply that the the resources freed up by fade to black would not only be enough to make body models for the PC, but that said resources would end up being used for that in the first place.
[No sex scenes] would undoubtedly be cheaper,
and might also open the possibility of having actual body model options for the protag - which I would love.
I was talking about the actual sex scene. The stuff after could either be clothed or not depending on the choice of the player. I don't see why having a filter you don't have to use(and I wouldn't use) is so offensive to you. I mean, there's a filter for gore in Dragon Age already and that's mentioned on the box too.
The only solid counter-argument I've seen(and even argued in favour of) is that it likely wouldn't be financially viable. However for things that it would be, I don't see why it's so terrible to have the option.
When I say adults only I mean the actual ESRB rating, which going all out on explicit content would very likely get them that. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are M rated games, not AO.
Well, those are two different arguments. Do I think Bioware should go full AO? No. I also don't think they should go for a T.
And I guess that's my problem, what I find so baffling. That someone asks the creators of a product to bend over backwards to cater to their sensibilities. I find it, and I truly mean no offense, to be kind of an entitled attitude. I mean, I wouldn't go to the producers of Halo or Uncharted and demand they add nudity to their games, and if someone has a problem with that, well, just put in a toggle!
A gore toggle it's not only established, it's also cheap and only hides a small portion of the actual violence. A nudity toggle would be expensive and could potentially compromise the narrative. According to you nothing important happens in the sex scenes, but I'd rather they keep their options open either way.
Taking sex scenes out of the equation would be one less hurdle to overcome if they ever wanted to allow different body model options.
Okay, that I agree with. It would certainly remove one issue preventing different body models. Can't say I care much to have that option and I would rather have better animations for the two we're getting (male and female) but then we're entering into very subjective territory.
Give me one good reason why they should go out of their way to not show nudity. It's not a rhetorical question and I'm not being sarcastic. Honest.
I like how even with persistent gore off, everything leaves ridiculously large pools of blood in Origins. It seems to be a popular example, but it's not a very good one.
Well, those are two different arguments. Do I think Bioware should go full AO? No. I also don't think they should go for a T.
And I guess that's my problem, what I find so baffling. That someone asks the creators of a product to bend over backwards to cater to their sensibilities. I find it, and I truly mean no offense, to be kind of an entitled attitude. I mean, I wouldn't go to the producers of Halo or Uncharted and demand they add nudity to their games, and if someone has a problem with that, well, just put in a toggle!
A gore toggle it's not only established, it's also cheap and only hides a small portion of the actual violence. A nudity toggle would be expensive and could potentially compromise the narrative. According to you nothing important happens in the sex scenes, but I'd rather they keep their options open either way.
If Mass Effect 2's sex scenes didn't get that game a T rating, then you don't have to worry. It will remain a M rated game.
In the case of this thread they're not asking for BioWare to add content, just add in a filter for the existing content. If enough people want it and it's financially viable, then why not?
I've already talked about the cost of such a feature multiple times in this thread, and have been repeatedly saying "as long as it is financially viable".
That's kind of the same question as why they should go out of their way to show nudity. Or sex.
We're not talking about actual photographic images of real people being censored. We're talking about a medium where every single pixel and movement is created by artists and animators.
Story.
I have no interest in seeing other people having sex, anymore than I am interested in seeing other people fight to the death. Cassandra's breasts and Liara's blue ass do nothing for me. But when two people are in a relationship, and they end up having sex, I as a member of the audience expect to see the climax (no pun intended) of that arc, and I see no more reason to hold back on the sex than there is reason to hold back on the battle against an antagonist. And sex is important, because most people don't engage in it with just anyone, and it serves to present the characters in a different light.
Some people are going to argue that this is a fighting game and etcetera, etcetera. But let's face it, virtually no one plays these games for the combat. There are much better shooters than ME out there. People play them for the story, the characters. And as such, I don't think I'm asking all that much when I hold them to the same standards I would if this were a novel or a movie.
Give me one good reason why they should go out of their way to not show nudity. It's not a rhetorical question and I'm not being sarcastic. Honest.
Just try to make it something I haven't heard already. What if you want kids to play the game? That's what ratings are for. You can either ignore them or go for a more appropriate game. What if it makes some people uncomfortable? That's not an argument. It's all subjective; everything everywhere has someone somewhere who finds it offensive or off-putting or whatever.
Okay, how's this:
Given characters are clothed for the vast majority of the game, Bioware actually has to go out of their way to show the characters unclothed. Nudity and sex requires special models, positioning, animation, all for things for optional content not everyone is going to see and not everyone wants to see.
Fade to black, or something less "dramatic" would almost certainly be a lot easier and cheaper.
When I say adults only I mean the actual ESRB rating, which going all out on explicit content would very likely get them that. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are M rated games, not AO.
Well, those are two different arguments. Do I think Bioware should go full AO? No. I also don't think they should go for a T.
AO really is an almost entirely pointless rating since neither Microsoft nor Sony will sell AO rated games through their respective games platforms; so you an be pretty certain whatever BioWare do with Andromeda it will be done M-rated "tastefully" ...
... so we'll never get to find out what a Krogan Quad in action actually looks like unless we resort to the weird, and frankly sometimes unfathomable, realms of fan art; Rule 34.
Okay, how's this:
Given characters are clothed for the vast majority of the game, Bioware actually has to go out of their way to show the characters unclothed. Nudity and sex requires special models, positioning, animation, all for things for optional content not everyone is going to see and not everyone wants to see.
Fade to black, or something less "dramatic" would almost certainly be a lot easier and cheaper.
It's an expense with legitimate storytelling value. I care more for the quality of their storytelling than for that of their gameplay, for the reasons I stated above. You could argue that they should remove interaction with the companions, or at least those in cinematic form, as they also require the production of positioning and animation for optional content not everyone is going to see and not everyone wants to see.
Nude models? Hardly a significant expense, especially since it's pretty obvious they recycle them.
AO really is an almost entirely pointless rating since neither Microsoft nor Sony will sell AO rated games through their respective games platforms; so you an be pretty certain whatever BioWare do with Andromeda it will be done M-rated "tastefully" ...
... so we'll never get to find out what a Krogan Quad in action actually looks like unless we resort to the weird, and frankly sometimes unfathomable, realms of fan art; Rule 34.
Hold the line, Chealec. We'll get you your on screen Krogan quad, don't you worry.
Cassandra has a pillow talk with the Inquisitor where you can see her bare breasts. That's certainly important within the context of the romance. It makes perfect sense that they would be naked after sex, and I see no reason why they should go out of their way to avoid showing nudity.
But not why they would show the breasts. The nude-ness of her body could very easily be implied by showing her shoulders. Showing breasts is not the default state, the devs can determine the camera angle. Both are equally easy to set up as devs, both showing breasts and not showing breasts. The breasts do not contribute to the story, because we'd already have knowledge of her being naked just by showing her shoulders in this context.
So what does it add substantively to show breasts in that specific instance?
Story.
I have no interest in seeing other people having sex, anymore than I am interested in seeing other people fight to the death. Cassandra's breasts and Liara's blue ass do nothing for me. But when two people are in a relationship, and they end up having sex, I as a member of the audience expect to see the climax (no pun intended) of that arc,
and I see no more reason to hold back on the sex than there is reason to hold back on the battle against an antagonist. And sex is important, because most people don't engage in it with just anyone, and it serves to present the characters in a different light.
Some people are going to argue that this is a fighting game and etcetera, etcetera. But let's face it, virtually no one plays these games for the combat. There are much better shooters than ME out there. People play them for the story, the characters. And as such, I don't think I'm asking all that much when I hold them to the same standards I would if this were a novel or a movie.
It's an expense with legitimate storytelling value. I care more for the quality of their storytelling than for that of their gameplay, for the reasons I stated above. You could argue that they should remove interaction with the companions, or at least those in cinematic form, as they also require the production of positioning and animation for optional content not everyone is going to see and not everyone wants to see.
Nude models? Hardly a significant expense, especially since it's pretty obvious they recycle them.
But what does showing nudity and sex scenes add to the story? If you know sex is taking place, or has taken place, why do you also need to see it? I don't see what seeing thrust #5 or the woman's bare chest adds to the story in any meaningful way.
It's not a matter of need, just a matter of whether the creators feel it makes for a better aesthetic for the moment.
It's not a matter of need, just a matter of whether the creators feel it makes for a better aesthetic for the moment.
Assuming you're addressing me, that's what I mean by need. Why is it better, if not for shallow reasons? Most people here want to say it adds substantively to the scenes, not just cus it's hot. What about it makes the aesthetic better, other than it's hot? I thank bare shoulders would do the trick just fine.
Assuming you're addressing me, that's what I mean by need. Why is it better, if not for shallow reasons? Most people here want to say it adds substantively to the scenes, not just cus it's hot. What about it makes the aesthetic better, other than it's hot? I thank bare shoulders would do the trick just fine.
Sooooo... almost the entire human history of Fine Art life studies is shallow because we tend to paint/sculpt people naked?
Using a strategically placed fig leaf (or three) would "do the trick just fine"?
Sooooo... almost the entire human history of Fine Art life studies is shallow because we tend to paint/sculpt people naked?
Using a strategically placed fig leaf (or three) would "do the trick just fine"?
Last time I checked, while video game's status as "a form of art" was up for debate, it was not itself art. Gaming is more akin to a board game than it is to a sculpture or a painting. The focus is different. Nudity makes sense in art and is (can be) appropriate, but it doesn't make sense in Stratego or chess. There's a time and place for everything, and yes nudity can be shallow in certain places. While I'm certainly not for the censorship of such things, for example female 'armor' in video games (you know, the revealing bikini with no stomach/shoulder defense), even though revealing of the body and quite attractive, makes no sense and is in a sense shallow. Just because it has parallels with art does not make it deep and meaningful. It's about the intent behind it, and how the final product comes across.
I don't see why fig leaves are needed personally, Different camera angles, fade to black, etc... all seem to work just fine. I don't even see what the sex act itself is needed to be shown, it hasn't been demonstrated to add anything meaningful in specific. People just keep saying it does, assertion =/= evidence or reason.
So we're going with the Ebert defense, I suppose?
I mean, being honest here, if we're really placing Bioware romance content in the same category as Chess and Stratego, there's probably something off with our approach to classification. Or sub-classification.
So we're going with the Ebert defense, I suppose?
I mean, being honest here, if we're really placing Bioware romance content in the same category as Chess and Stratego, there's probably something off with our approach to classification. Or sub-classification.
I'm not saying they're the same, I'm gaming in general is closer to those things.
Do you not agree nudity itself can be shallow in certain circumstances, and that just because art often is in the nude that does not mean that therefore all nudity is de-facto "classy"? As long as you agree that nudity can be shallow, and that it is not in and of itself non-shallow, my point stands regardless of if you agree with my analogy or not.
And by virtue of games being interactive in their very nature, like board games, I think that broadly puts them in a category with board games. Perhaps you enjoy games for their artistic flavor and such, that doesn't mean that's what they're closest to.
Assuming you're addressing me, that's what I mean by need. Why is it better, if not for shallow reasons? Most people here want to say it adds substantively to the scenes, not just cus it's hot. What about it makes the aesthetic better, other than it's hot? I thank bare shoulders would do the trick just fine.
I suspect that it wouldn't make a difference for me to explain why I personally think it's better, since it's automatically assumed that the reasons must be shallow anyway, but I appreciate that the character is exposed in a scene that is meant to be emotional. Sure, they could capture this scene in any number of ways to reveal less, but I for one think that it works better when you see more of the character. There's no real point in going deeper into that, because it's really just a matter of taste in how a subject is framed and in what context. That being said, I don't really see the problem with "hot" when it's used appropriately, as in not being overly silly or gratuitous or out of context to the point of becoming wearisome. Like, Cassandra's scene, in my opinion, works just fine, whereas Miranda's constant ass shots do not, because at least the former fits the situation.
I don't really see what the fuss is about though. If this is just an argument that they don't really need to do this, then that's not really meaningful. They don't need to do a lot of things. That they do it because they like it and think that the fans will like it too doesn't necessarily make it bad. Sometimes it can be, but I don't think that Inquisition is a particularly bad example.
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