3411 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Lol wat.

[Arius]

Art doesn't need to be validated - in fact I'd argue it shouldn't be validated (that way spurious, pretentious BS lies - trust me, that's what my degree was in) ... the only validation that art needs, within any context, is that it's what the creator wanted it to be.

 

However, the "... but it's art man!" argument doesn't really fly with commodity items created with the intention of being sold. There probably has never been an artist who's principles aren't flexible when it comes to getting paid; even the roof of the Sistine Chapel was a commission. If the person creating the scene in a game believes nudity is warranted, or if adding it is likely to have a positive impact on sales, it'll go in... and that's pretty much it.

 

Look at Rust (http://playrust.com/) you start off butt-naked, quite literally starting with nothing... that's kinda the point; and since they've not created female characters yet I really doubt that was done for some kind of titillation.

 

Sure, but I think we're discussing whether these things are, in general, tasteful or not. If an artist likes something, regardless of if it's tasteful, that's cool. I'm just saying most often nudity isn't done for a particularly classy reason in this category of things (games), it's done purely for shock value (IE the Order), or for appeal to certain demographics (usually young men), or as a selling point feature.

 

And judging by your follow up post, I rather doubt they added Rust in for what we would describe as tasteful or mature reasons. If people like immature/tasteless things, that's their perogative, but the argument I was dealing with originally was over whether or not nudity/sex shown on screen substantively adds to the story (yes, the story, not even just the aesthetics, I was originally responding to whether or not it improves the narrative's quality to see nudity/sex in and of itself).

[Filament]

Right but do you think those characters would actually do that? Do you think Ashley would say "if you don't wanna bang me we're done" (who, to remind folks, is a dedicated Christian who loves poetry rofl)? Or Cassandra? Or Liara? So what you're saying doesn't really deal with the point, the characters weren't giving ultimatums, the game designers were. The designers said "you have sex or you're not in a relationship, done!". I think all of these characters are more than sex machines, they're in the relationship for the relationship, not sex.

They are more than sex machines. And they are still sex machines. They're in the relationship for both reasons.

So at some point they would want it if they are sexual, yes. The nefarious purpose behind the designers implementing the characters as such could just be to reflect that fact. They could implement 'let's wait' or 'let's have a relationship without sex!' options but to say every character would be okay with those terms is silly, especially the latter. I know there are some vocal ace supporters here, but that doesn't mean they're gonna start making every character or even any character that way.

[Erstus]

Yeah, because action/RPG games that involve darker aspects and shooting people do not need violence!

Seriously, games, movies, and shows have ratings for a reason. I hear Lego Starwars is enjoyable though. You should check into that, OP.

[Lady Artifice]

Right but do you think those characters would actually do that? Do you think Ashley would say "if you don't wanna bang me we're done" (who, to remind folks, is a dedicated Christian who loves poetry rofl)? Or Cassandra? Or Liara? So what you're saying doesn't really deal with the point, the characters weren't giving ultimatums, the game designers were. The designers said "you have sex or you're not in a relationship, done!". I think all of these characters are more than sex machines, they're in the relationship for the relationship, not sex.

 

Well, of course they're more than sex machines. They're fictional adults who reasonably expect sex to be a factor in a romantic relationship at some point. 

 

Is Ashley being a "dedicated christian" confirmed? I'm honestly uncertain, because all I remember her saying is that she believes in God. I don't remember her quoting the Bible, or explicitly expressing a specific religious affiliation. 

[Arius]

They are more than sex machines. And they are still sex machines. They're in the relationship for both reasons.

So at some point they would want it if they are sexual, yes. The nefarious purpose behind the designers implementing the characters as such could just be to reflect that fact. They could implement 'let's wait' or 'let's have a relationship without sex!' options but to say every character would be okay with those terms is silly, especially the latter. I know there are some vocal ace supporters here, but that doesn't mean they're gonna start making every character or even any character that way.

 

Yes but obviously I'm restricting it to the plot of Mass Effect. I'm talking at that 1 point in each game you get a chance to get down with any specific character, if you were to not do that, would any of these specific characters just be like "forget you, I'm outtie"? Maybe Jack as that's what allows her to open up to you, idk about any others though.

 

So yeah sex would be expected eventually, but that doesn't mean after just knowing each other for a few weeks it would be demanded.

[Arius]

Well, of course they're more than sex machines. They're fictional adults who reasonably expect sex to be a factor in a romantic relationship at some point. 

 

Is Ashley being a "dedicated christian" confirmed? I'm honestly uncertain, because all I remember her saying is that she believes in God. I don't remember her quoting the Bible, or explicitly expressing a specific religious affiliation. 

 

Oh I might be wrong, I generally take believing in God to mean Christian because of my culture, it's unfair of me to do so, it's a bad habit. My mistake. I'm not sure if it was specified if she was Christian or just believed in a God.

 

I do remember something about her father who passed away being with God (just saw this was on the wiki as well), which would most conform to one of the Abrahamic faiths, but you're right it might not be.

[FKA_Servo]

Is Ashley being a "dedicated christian" confirmed? I'm honestly uncertain, because all I remember her saying is that she believes in God. I don't remember her quoting the Bible, or explicitly expressing a specific religious affiliation. 

 

The Bioware fanbase monolith doesn't have a very firm grasp on subtlety and nuance. Ashley's dreamy, vague expressions of a belief in an undefined higher power mark her as an extreme, extreme Jesus freak. Her completely understandable (given her family history) misgivings about serving with the turians mark her as an extreme, extreme xenophobe.

 

It makes perfect sense to me.

[straykat]

The Bioware fanbase monolith doesn't have a very firm grasp on subtlety and nuance. Ashley's dreamy, vague expressions of a belief in an undefined higher power mark her as an extreme, extreme Jesus freak. Her completely understandable (given her family history) misgivings about serving with the turians mark her as an extreme, extreme xenophobe.

 

It makes perfect sense to me.

 

Or they're just fools.

 

But your reason works too.

 

Actually, no I'll be serious. To use a popular word, I think some people get "'triggered" at anything remotely religious. They probably need to work on some issues, but not my problem.

[FKA_Servo]

Or they're just fools.

 

But your reason works too.

 

Why not both?

[straykat]

I added to that (bottom part about "triggers"), but yeah.. it can be both.

[Former_Fiend]

Yes but obviously I'm restricting it to the plot of Mass Effect. I'm talking at that 1 point in each game you get a chance to get down with any specific character, if you were to not do that, would any of these specific characters just be like "forget you, I'm outtie"? Maybe Jack as that's what allows her to open up to you, idk about any others though.

 

So yeah sex would be expected eventually, but that doesn't mean after just knowing each other for a few weeks it would be demanded.

 

Honestly, all the relationships in ME1 and 2 already had this kind of "Let's wait" thing going on. They all have this "not now, when things are not so hectic and busy, I have some things to do first" thing that postpones the sex until right before the final mission. The only case where you can have sex early on is with Jack, and this is specifically treated as a bad thing as she pretty much shuts you out entirely at that point. 

 

As a whole, ME is pretty anti-casual sex. Premarital sex, sure, but only after a fair wait(ME2 takes place over the course of six months or so, so you've known the LI for at least a few months). Even Traynor, which is the relationship that starts with sex, only happens after a while of knowing each other and happens with Traynor making it clear she's only interested in something serious.

[Chealec]

And judging by your follow up post, I rather doubt they added Rust in for what we would describe as tasteful or mature reasons. If people like immature/tasteless things, that's their perogative, but the argument I was dealing with originally was over whether or not nudity/sex shown on screen substantively adds to the story (yes, the story, not even just the aesthetics, I was originally responding to whether or not it improves the narrative's quality to see nudity/sex in and of itself).

 

The reason everyone is naked in Rust to begin with is because it's a survival game in which you literally start with nothing ... well, you can pick up a rock. Dying of exposure is sort of a possibility as is starvation. It's not done to be classy or tasteful but because that's the whole point of the game... starting with a nice warm bearskin would rather dilute that beginning.

 

None of which can be applied to a Mass Effect game of course but are the sex scenes tasteless in Mass Effect? - I don't think so... I thought they were a bit tasteless in the original Grand Theft Auto where you literally just curb crawl, pick up a prostitute, and the car starts rocking - you don't actually see anything but it's still far more tacky than anything in Mass Effect - but then again, it's a game about stealing cars, where you get points for running down Hare Krishnas, I'm not exactly expecting a Romeo and Juliet operetta here.

 

Does it add anything to the story then? Guess that kinda depends... I thought the whole shagging on a stuffed unicorn in The Witcher 3 did add something to the story... it gave an insight into Geralt and Yen's history together and was one of the few moments where Yen let her serious face slip. You don't have that kind of ludicrous sexual history with someone after a one night stand; it told us more about Yen and Geralt's shared romantic past than just about the whole rest of the trilogy put together. These weren't two teenagers having their first awkward fumblings but people who'd loved and laughed and appreciated sex in all it's wonderful silliness - together.

 

Do the Mass Effect games do this? Well, kinda... it works if you go 1 through 3 and stick with Ash all the way through for instance (don't "cheat" on her in 2). The sex scene in 3 shows Ash strong, still willing to take command, but vulnerable and finally, free of doubt and actually happy. It's where both parties admit they love each other... but the fact that she keeps her underwear on throughout ..? That's a cop out - pandering to the puritans to the detriment of the scene, at least a little. It's not the end of the world though, the story is told in her face - that little smile near the end of the scene. In that scene, you know what, I'd prefer your "bare shoulders" or cleverly placed camera angles approach rather than Ash keeping her undies.

 

The whole Traynor romance though - now that is just thrown in for the sake of a Pokemon collectable gotta-shag-em-all card (like pretty much every "romance" in the original Witcher) and adds precisely nothing to the characters or story.

[Arius]

Honestly, all the relationships in ME1 and 2 already had this kind of "Let's wait" thing going on. They all have this "not now, when things are not so hectic and busy, I have some things to do first" thing that postpones the sex until right before the final mission. The only case where you can have sex early on is with Jack, and this is specifically treated as a bad thing as she pretty much shuts you out entirely at that point. 

 

As a whole, ME is pretty anti-casual sex. Premarital sex, sure, but only after a fair wait(ME2 takes place over the course of six months or so, so you've known the LI for at least a few months). Even Traynor, which is the relationship that starts with sex, only happens after a while of knowing each other and happens with Traynor making it clear she's only interested in something serious.

 

I'm not clear on the exact timepsan of each Mass Effect, but I I was under the impression that at least 1&3 took place in 3 months or less. And since romances don't start at the very beginning of the games, you don't even necessarily meet the characters at the beginning of the games, it'd be wrong to include the entirety of the game as the timetable for the romance.

 

While I agree Bioware seems reasonably anti-casual sex, this doesn't mean they don't portray sex as happening a lot sooner than it normally would in a relationship that's mostly about... well... a relationship/feelings, not just about sex. Think about it, you know these characters for maybe a couple of months, not getting all that much time to spend with them due to being busy saving the galaxy and being in the military (in 1/3 at least)... It's not exactly a lot of time to really get to know someone.

 

This is why I feel an option to not have sex and just focus on sparking a romantic relationship is a good thing for role players and those who prefer waiting (I'm not strict about this myself IRL personally), and it solves the problems for players who don't want to see the sex/nudity in the game lol.

[KaiserShep]

I think Ashley is a good example of a companion who would've made sense to limit her romance in ME1 to exclude sex, because she does go on about fraternization and such, though this should apply to Kaidan as well, and provided they survive to the end, finally give in in the face of impending doom. But whatevs. It's all good.

[goishen]

Any game that can randomly generate the size of your penis (along with the rest of your physical attributes) based on your Steam ID has got to have something going for it I guess

 

I was actually gifted a copy by a friend on Steam and I've not gotten around to installing it yet.

 

 

What would really be funny is if a female friend gifted it to you and used her profile.  That would be hil-a-rious.

 

Is Ashley being a "dedicated christian" confirmed? I'm honestly uncertain, because all I remember her saying is that she believes in God. I don't remember her quoting the Bible, or explicitly expressing a specific religious affiliation. 

 

As an atheist, I can definitively say that anyone who believes in god is definitely a christian.  Even a non-church attending one.  It just means that they are spiritual (although, I hate using that word) but not religious (being tied down to any specific religion).

[straykat]

I think the whole fratenization angle annoys me.

 

I just can't stand anyone who takes it that seriously, when those threads come up occassionally. Like they treat ME like some military simulation. I imagine some dork playing with train sets or something.

 

Err... I dunno. That's the image in my head. Some obessive weirdo like that, who gets off on minutia. Probably the same people who want to simulate taking a dump in Star Citizen.

 

edit: BTW, not you Kaiser. You're saying something slightly different.

[Arius]

The reason everyone is naked in Rust to begin with is because it's a survival game in which you literally start with nothing ... well, you can pick up a rock. Dying of exposure is sort of a possibility as is starvation. It's not done to be classy or tasteful but because that's the whole point of the game... starting with a nice warm bearskin would rather dilute that beginning.

 

None of which can be applied to a Mass Effect game of course but are the sex scenes tasteless in Mass Effect? - I don't think so... I thought they were a bit tasteless in the original Grand Theft Auto where you literally just curb crawl, pick up a prostitute, and the car starts rocking - you don't actually see anything but it's still far more tacky than anything in Mass Effect - but then again, it's a game about stealing cars, where you get points for running down Hare Krishnas, I'm not exactly expecting a Romeo and Juliet operetta here.

 

Does it add anything to the story then? Guess that kinda depends... I thought the whole shagging on a stuffed unicorn in The Witcher 3 did add something to the story... it gave an insight into Geralt and Yen's history together and was one of the few moments where Yen let her serious face slip. You don't have that kind of ludicrous sexual history with someone after a one night stand; it told us more about Yen and Geralt's shared romantic past than just about the whole rest of the trilogy put together. These weren't two teenagers having their first awkward fumblings but people who'd loved and laughed and appreciated sex in all it's wonderful silliness - together.

 

Do the Mass Effect games do this? Well, kinda... it works if you go 1 through 3 and stick with Ash all the way through for instance (don't "cheat" on her in 2). The sex scene in 3 shows Ash strong, still willing to take command, but vulnerable and finally, free of doubt and actually happy. It's where both parties admit they love each other... but the fact that she keeps her underwear on throughout ..? That's a cop out - pandering to the puritans to the detriment of the scene, at least a little. It's not the end of the world though, the story is told in her face - that little smile near the end of the scene. In that scene, you know what, I'd prefer your "bare shoulders" or cleverly placed camera angles approach rather than Ash keeping her undies.

 

The whole Traynor romance though - now that is just thrown in for the sake of a Pokemon collectable gotta-shag-em-all card (like pretty much every "romance" in the original Witcher) and adds precisely nothing to the characters or story.

 

So you legitimately think starting with a loin cloth is just unfeasible and doesn't convey what the game is trying to convey properly? Idk, sounds to me like nudity just cus it'll generate interest in the game, but I could be wrong.

 

I mostly agree with what you've said here (I'm a bit of a Witcher fan myself in spite of a few shortcomings and what I perceive to be some immaturity). This is sort of my point though. I personally believe the best compromise for quality is do just yolo and do full nude scenes when it's most appropriate, but always give an option to avoid that sort of thing while continuing the romance if that fits into the story. The reliable bioware method of "we're gonna fight main bad guy tomorrow, let's get it on or we're not in a relationship" is, in my mind, not a very mature/realistic handling of the subject. The "just don't have sex while still being in a relationship" option seems to be the best compromise. The different camera angles bit works okay but I wouldn't want to force my preferences onto other people, if other people want to see the sex scenes in their full glory that's cool. I just want an option for myself personally.

[KaiserShep]

I think the whole fratenization angle annoys me.
 
I just can't stand anyone who takes it that seriously, when those threads come up occassionally. Like they treat ME like some military simulation. I imagine some dork playing with train sets or something.
 
Err... I dunno. That's the image in my head. Some obessive weirdo like that, who gets off on minutia. Probably the same people who want to simulate taking a dump in Star Citizen.
 
edit: BTW, not you Kaiser. You're saying something slightly different.

I really should check out this Star Citizen forum. Sounds like Neckbeardia.

[Chealec]

So you legitimately think starting with a loin cloth is just unfeasible and doesn't convey what the game is trying to convey properly? Idk, sounds to me like nudity just cus it'll generate interest in the game, but I could be wrong.

 

It would beg the question of "where the hell did I get this loincloth?!"

 

This is Rust's equivalent of H&M

 

[straykat]

I doubt nudity will generate that much extra interest. Where is this coming from?

 

As far as Bioware goes, it's not like DAI is some stellar success. Modest at best. It didn't even register on the NPD charts. Witcher 2 good for lack of brand recognition at the time, but doesn't blow most games out of the water. They're still just RPG/Action RPGs that get dwarfed by the majority of games.

[Zerc]

Dear noe-progressive

The salarian union formally request that you go away.

[Erstus]

Or they're just fools.
 
But your reason works too.
 
Actually, no I'll be serious. To use a popular word, I think some people get "'triggered" at anything remotely religious. They probably need to work on some issues, but not my problem.

I mark it down as hypersensitivity but foolish fits accurately too.

[Arius]

I doubt nudity will generate that much extra interest. Where is this coming from?

 

As far as Bioware goes, it's not like DAI is some stellar success. Modest at best. It didn't even register on the NPD charts. Witcher 2 good for lack of brand recognition at the time, but doesn't blow most games out of the water. They're still just RPG/Action RPGs that get dwarfed by the majority of games.

 

I was only talking about the nudity in Rust in regards to interest generation, and even though I don't even play games like it I had heard about the game before due to that very reason lol. I agree these games aren't always stellar successes, I wasn't saying they were. Nudity obviously doesn't make a game popular, but that doesn't mean it can't be a selling point (or at least be intended to be a selling point).

 

I mean think about it, Jade Empire/Kotor/Baldur's gate had no nudity or real sex scenes... But after the success of ME1, every single one of them has a romance scene for virtually every romance, some in DA:I including nudity. You don't think that has something to do with it being a selling point lol?

[straykat]

I was only talking about the nudity in Rust in regards to interest generation, and even though I don't even play games like it I had heard about the game before due to that very reason lol. I agree these games aren't always stellar successes, I wasn't saying they were. Nudity obviously doesn't make a game popular, but that doesn't mean it can't be a selling point (or at least be intended to be a selling point).

 

I mean think about it, Jade Empire/Kotor/Baldur's gate had no nudity or real sex scenes... But after the success of ME1, every single one of them has a romance scene for virtually every romance, some in DA:I including nudity. You don't think that has something to do with it being a selling point lol?

 

Well.. I don't mind nudity for one. I can appreciate it. And yet I have a strong hate on for DAI. If it makes you feel better. No amount of nudity could fix what I'm annoyed about it. You're right.. their older, better games didn't need it.

 

Never played Rust actually though.. sorry if I butted in.