Well.. I don't mind nudity for one. I can appreciate it. And yet I have a strong hate on for DAI. If it makes you feel better.
No amount of nudity could fix what I'm annoyed about it. You're right.. their older, better games didn't need it.
Never played Rust actually though.. sorry if I butted in.
It's no issue xD. I don't have much of a nudity issue myself... my need for a toggle is cus of my circumstances (my monitor is easily visible by members of my family >.>).
As an atheist, I can definitively say that anyone who believes in god is definitely a christian. Even a non-church attending one. It just means that they are spiritual (although, I hate using that word) but not religious (being tied down to any specific religion).
Okay, weird.
I'd, of course, argue that Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Polytheism, etc are distinguishable systems of belief from one another, and that it's impossible to discuss any of them without a willingness to entertain that distinction.
But I'm not going to discuss them, because firstly it's not on topic, secondly it's not permitted, and thirdly, it's a dumb discussion to bring into a gaming forum.
My point is that the assumption that Ashley might be reasonably likely to subscribe to fundamental christian beliefs regarding premarital sex is a faulty one. We don't even know if she subscribes to any fundamental religious beliefs, let alone christian ones in specific.
Okay, weird.
I'd, of course, argue that Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Polytheism, etc are distinguishable systems of belief from one another, and that it's impossible to discuss any of them without a willingness to entertain that distinction.
But I'm not going to discuss them, because firstly it's not on topic, secondly it's not permitted, and thirdly, it's a dumb discussion to bring into a gaming forum.
My point is that the assumption that Ashley might be reasonably likely to subscribe to fundamental christian beliefs regarding premarital sex is a faulty one. We don't even know if she subscribes to any fundamental religious beliefs, let alone christian ones in specific.
I think the fact that she engages in pre-marital sex willingly (potentially at least) in ME1 means by default it's less likely she holds those beliefs to be true. Even most Christians in the modern world don't believe pre-marital sex is some great evil, doubt they would in the time Mass Effect takes place.
I'm not clear on the exact timepsan of each Mass Effect, but I I was under the impression that at least 1&3 took place in 3 months or less. And since romances don't start at the very beginning of the games, you don't even necessarily meet the characters at the beginning of the games, it'd be wrong to include the entirety of the game as the timetable for the romance.
While I agree Bioware seems reasonably anti-casual sex, this doesn't mean they don't portray sex as happening a lot sooner than it normally would in a relationship that's mostly about... well... a relationship/feelings, not just about sex. Think about it, you know these characters for maybe a couple of months, not getting all that much time to spend with them due to being busy saving the galaxy and being in the military (in 1/3 at least)... It's not exactly a lot of time to really get to know someone.
This is why I feel an option to not have sex and just focus on sparking a romantic relationship is a good thing for role players and those who prefer waiting (I'm not strict about this myself IRL personally), and it solves the problems for players who don't want to see the sex/nudity in the game lol.
I'm curious as to what you'd consider to be a normal wait time between meeting someone, getting to know them, having an attraction form, and deciding to have sex. I'm sure that if we were to pose that question to everyone in this thread, we'd get a huge range of answers. Personally, a couple of months is more than enough time for me to decide if I'm interested in someone to pursue a relationship with the potential to become something serious.
Granted, none of the games have anything resembling an explicit timescale, so we can't know and judge how long it takes these chararacters to really get to know each other, get inte. I'm given to understand both ME2 & 3 take place over the course of six months, but I have no idea about ME1 - ME2 implies that the first one took place over a quicker time frame. Point being, it's hard to objectively judge it given we don't actually know just how long it takes.
Having said that, I'm not opposed to a "let's wait" dialogue option being available, though I can see a reasonable person deciding to break off the relationship at that point for any number of reasons. Just like how marriage isn't an option for all the LI's in Inquisition.
I'm curious as to what you'd consider to be a normal wait time between meeting someone, getting to know them, having an attraction form, and deciding to have sex. I'm sure that if we were to pose that question to everyone in this thread, we'd get a huge range of answers. Personally, a couple of months is more than enough time for me to decide if I'm interested in someone to pursue a relationship with the potential to become something serious.
Granted, none of the games have anything resembling an explicit timescale, so we can't know and judge how long it takes these chararacters to really get to know each other, get inte. I'm given to understand both ME2 & 3 take place over the course of six months, but I have no idea about ME1 - ME2 implies that the first one took place over a quicker time frame. Point being, it's hard to objectively judge it given we don't actually know just how long it takes.
Having said that, I'm not opposed to a "let's wait" dialogue option being available, though I can see a reasonable person deciding to break off the relationship at that point for any number of reasons. Just like how marriage isn't an option for all the LI's in Inquisition.
I'd agree there'd be a range of answers. It depends on what you mean by "reasonable". I'm personally committed to waiting as long as can be expected, because sex can make you feel closer to someone than you actually are. In reality what's important to the long-term health of a relationship (from my pov) is finding out if you're compatible with them on an emotional/intellectual level. Sex is obviously important and in no way (imo) some sacred thing that just can never happen, but that doesn't mean it's healthy to engage in any time you have the opportunity (note not judging other people, just giving my opinion and the way I treat it).
I don't think a hard time-table is important, it's more important how much you know about them. I think the problem is a couple of months in real world would give you a lot more opportunities to meet with them than in the game, as you're rather busy saving the universe and you're somewhat restricted by military protocol most of the time.
More important IMO is when sex is expected, not just when it's appropriate. I have no doubt some characters in the universe would agree with your timetable, but would you demand a women have sex with you or break off the relationship if they said no? Do you think any Bioware character would? May a few, but none that I can think of off the top of my head (maybe Zevran? xD!).
And I agree, options seem best for all parties--so long as said options conform with the characters themselves (if that's not viable, then I think a toggle via the options to avoid nudity is best, just again imo).
More important IMO is when sex is expected, not just when it's appropriate. I have no doubt some characters in the universe would agree with your timetable, but would you demand a women have sex with you or break off the relationship if they said no? Do you think any Bioware character would? May a few, but none that I can think of off the top of my head (maybe Zevran? xD!).
Plus Izzy, I guess.
However, as a game-mechanics issue, once we start putting flexibility in the timing doesn't the whole thing become a bit of a zot sink?
Unless, of course, the timing is meaningless and the relationship plays out just the same no matter what the timing was, which can work.
If I'm understanding you correctly, guess it really does just depend on the romance. I was thinking the option would mostly be for people who want to skip the sex scene in the game itself, so it might not be relevant until after the game ends. The big issue I see if they plan to have the sex referenced in the future of the romance, but then again Bioware is famous for it's divergences. I'm playing through ME3 right now, the amount of things that change during your interactions with Conrad Verner of all people, based on what you've done in the past... is absolutely insane. I counted no less than 5 differences due to previous Mass Effects in the timespan of 2 minutes, 1 of which being whether he lives or dies xD.
I'm not imagining this being framed as a demand and refusal type thing. I'm just saying that if it's reasonable for one party to say "Whoa, let's slow down, this is going too fast, I want to wait", then it's reasonable for one party to go "Alright, I respect that this is moving too fast for you and you're not comfortable with this. However, I'm not comfortable going as slow as you want, I'm not comfortable waiting as long as you want to wait." And not have it be an ultimatum of "have sex with me now or we're done", because obviously that isn't alright, but instead just an acknowledgement of "you and I want two different things out of this, and those things just aren't compatible. It's time we step away before either of us gets really hurt."
Could I see that exchange happening with any of the existing romances? Maybe, maybe not. But I also don't go into this looking at what they've done in the past. In the "romances you'd like to see" threads, I don't go "Something like Morrigan/Merrill/Miranda/Cassandra". I'm always looking for them to introduce new characters and to tell new stories. So whether or not any of the previous romance options would react this way is irrelevant to me; what matters in this specific discussion is how the MEA romance options will react.
I still think it would be interesting to do a poll which listed your geographic region and whether you want nudity or not.
I'm not imagining this being framed as a demand and refusal type thing. I'm just saying that if it's reasonable for one party to say "Whoa, let's slow down, this is going too fast, I want to wait", then it's reasonable for one party to go "Alright, I respect that this is moving too fast for you and you're not comfortable with this. However, I'm not comfortable going as slow as you want, I'm not comfortable waiting as long as you want to wait." And not have it be an ultimatum of "have sex with me now or we're done", because obviously that isn't alright, but instead just an acknowledgement of "you and I want two different things out of this, and those things just aren't compatible. It's time we step away before either of us gets really hurt."
Could I see that exchange happening with any of the existing romances? Maybe, maybe not. But I also don't go into this looking at what they've done in the past. In the "romances you'd like to see" threads, I don't go "Something like Morrigan/Merrill/Miranda/Cassandra". I'm always looking for them to introduce new characters and to tell new stories. So whether or not any of the previous romance options would react this way is irrelevant to me; what matters in this specific discussion is how the MEA romance options will react.
A polite demand is essentially still just that, imo. It may not be literally saying "do it or else", but that is what it means. And honestly? I really don't see many Bioware characters doing even your polite version. And it doesn't have to be a "let's wait" thing, if you're the one initiating the romance (which I grant might not always be the case in a bioware game, but it usually is), then there could just be an option where you don't suggest that you should or imply that you will have sex.
I agree about us needing to think about what they will do, I'm using past as an indicator of how they will probably handle the situation, not saying that's how they definitively will/should. As such, like I've said, this is only an option I'd like if it didn't conflict with their character design.
As a side note, I actually think it'd be fairly cool if something like what you suggested happened, where your decision beyond just being immoral/moral in their eyes as it is in other Bioware games, can cause you a romance. I'd be perfectly fine with that myself, because these games are first and foremost to me RPG's, I think that them breaking up with you because of your decision would be pretty sweet (and sad lol, but then I wouldn't particularly miss someone who would break up with me over such a thing). At least then Bioware isn't saying essentially "you're gonna have sex on screen or else no romance, accept it" (and I know this isn't literally true but it is for the most part with their games).
I think Ashley is a good example of a companion who would've made sense to limit her romance in ME1 to exclude sex, because she does go on about fraternization and such, though this should apply to Kaidan as well, and provided they survive to the end, finally give in in the face of impending doom. But whatevs. It's all good.
Well, SHe and Shepard do wait until they're on the run for mutiny and technically shouldn't even be wearing an Alliance uniform... 
"A polite demand is still a demand", alright, fair enough. By that same token, a demand to wait, however polite and reasonable, is still a demand.
Personally I don't believe anyone should have sex until they're ready. I don't believe any two people should have sex with each other until they're both comfortable. I just don't think there's any real universal standard that can be applied to that. I think, ideally, most couples who are truly compatible with each other are going to reach that comfort level together at roughly the same time, however long it may be.
If you have one person who is ready, willing, and able to go now and the other person isn't and won't be in the foreseeable future, these two people probably don't belong together, in my mind.
But, yeah, options and variety. I wouldn't have a problem with romances who are alright waiting, who ask you to wait and will end it if you aren't alright with that. I just don't think that all of them should be.
I do think part of the issue with this is Bioware's constant desire to be more cinematic in it's approach to gaming, which is more prevalent in ME than in DA. The ME2 scenes especially being very much out of your hands; it's a movie at that point. They placed more value on crafting what were intended to be emotionally striking scenes than they did on player choice in that instance.
It would beg the question of "where the hell did I get this loincloth?!"
This is Rust's equivalent of H&M
That image looks like it should be preceded by a story that is equal parts legendary and disturbing.
I still think it would be interesting to do a poll which listed your geographic region and whether you want nudity or not.
In my Human Geography class (many years ago) we did similar fun things. Like map Alcohol purchase (average $ spent over population) and compare it with something like average church attendance rates. There was an awesome online tool that had all kinds of study data in it that you could use to generate maps like that. For the life of me I can't remember the site, but I'm sure they have a $ spent on porn category that one could map out 
...
I don't think a hard time-table is important, it's more important how much you know about them. I think the problem is a couple of months in real world would give you a lot more opportunities to meet with them than in the game, as you're rather busy saving the universe and you're somewhat restricted by military protocol most of the time.
...
A couple of months?! I don't think I've known anyone last longer than a couple of weeks, normally not much more than a couple of days, at the start of a new relationship...
... well not since I was about 15 anyway. I've not really known anyone do the whole dating thing either mind... my social circle is probably a bit unusual though.
In my Human Geography class (many years ago) we did similar fun things. Like map Alcohol purchase (average $ spent over population) and compare it with something like average church attendance rates. There was an awesome online tool that had all kinds of study data in it that you could use to generate maps like that. For the life of me I can't remember the site, but I'm sure they have a $ spent on porn category that one could map out
IIRC the US and Japan are the world's two largest consumers of porn per capita ... both countries have some pretty strange attitudes towards sex from a European perspective.
That image looks like it should be preceded by a story that is equal parts legendary and disturbing.
Hey Bambi - I'm gonna do a David Cameron on your mum! OOoooh YEAH!
For anyone outside the UK who needs some context here:
http://www.express.c...-Prime-Minister
I think the fact that she engages in pre-marital sex willingly (potentially at least) in ME1 means by default it's less likely she holds those beliefs to be true. Even most Christians in the modern world don't believe pre-marital sex is some great evil, doubt they would in the time Mass Effect takes place.
Agreedish. Like Servo said, her belief in God is made very vague in game. The fan base was inclined to assume the rest.
I grew up a modern fundamentalist Christian environment. My experience has been of a religious community that is still very opposed to any sexual or sometimes any romantic activity before marriage. I had friends who never dated, but only engaged in formal courtship with constant chaperon presence.
You might think I'm exaggerating, but I do mean it. There wasn't even any kissing before the wedding day for several of my friends (at least as far as their parents knew). Keep in mind that this is suburban California I'm talking about, the state the rest of the world likes to assume is populated exclusively by free minded, radical hippies. As far as whether this kind of thinking could survive into the Mass Effect timeline, I'm more inclined to entertain the idea than you are. People cling to tradition and religion. I think that it's possible they always will.
Anyway, my point is that while I think it might be probable that Ashley is referring to Judeo-christian deity, I don't think it's meant to carry implications of any religious moral system on her part. Her belief isn't defined much beyond, "Hey, the universe is sure magnificent, isn't it? I like to think there's something intelligent behind that. That doesn't annoy you, does it, Commander Protagonist, Sir/Maam?"
I still think it would be interesting to do a poll which listed your geographic region and whether you want nudity or not.
You're just confident that if they took that into account, you'd get the complete version of the game over there, and the U.S. would be stuck with the crappy censored version. 
I'd, of course, argue that Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Polytheism, etc are distinguishable systems of belief from one another, and that it's impossible to discuss any of them without a willingness to entertain that distinction.
K. That's fine. You're going off the deep end. She said god, so I'd assume that would rule out most of the other religions of the world, especially polytheism. I guess I'd be wrong about that.
Edit : Just, read. https://en.wikipedia...al_Christianity
She's just promoting some vague monotheistic beliefs. It's just meant to be a little quirk to give her character.
Besides that, her writer just likes writing things that are very different from himself. He's an atheist. He also wrote Thane, who has a lot to say about his religion too. He's one of those atheists who likes exploring other people's minds and worldviews. From what I know about him. I think he said that himself in an interview. The only part that he injected personally into both of them is his love for poetry. Both Ash and Thane are poetic (Thane's more naturally poetic and doesn't quote things).
In regards to the artist analogy, I understand the intent behind it and the point is well taken. But, in my opinion it still doesn't really deal with my point, because it doesn't itself validate why nudity would be in any specific situation. I'm saying I specifically feel (personally), that forced nudity in the Cassandra case was uncalled for and seemed to be done for less-than-noble reasons. Since I personally concede that nudity can be artistically beneficial and respectable (as people might not have yet realized, I'm pretty far from a prude rofl), I just don't think it usually is in video games. That's why I take umbrage with the art example, because although it demonstrates that one point you mention, I feel a secondary intention was to say "nudity is artistic itself, unless you have a good reason for saying it's not artistic, then it's a positive" which is not uncommon to hear in these types of discussions. I may have been mistaken, but that's why I was jumping on that comparison.
I think Chealec phrases this better than I ever could. But just to add (briefly), I have about a billion concerns regarding Bioware's capability (or lack thereof) to handle certain story elements effectively. Nudity is actually one of them. But I don't see that as stemming from their not being artists. I see that as stemming from my being a consumer.
That's why when we broadly ask: "What's the point of nude bodies?", to a large extent I think that indicates a condemnation of all nude sculpture/romance scenes, since the same reasoning which motivates their inclusion in those areas can theoretically motivate Bioware. A better aesthetic (Kaiser's example as I recall) is a perfectly valid reason for someone to prefer that approach. Myself I'd rather phrase the criticism as "I think Bioware would do a half-assed job on this", which I actually think is pretty much on the money.
It's true that, given any choice we do make in the game, what we witness is created by the developers and is fully intentional (barring bugs and whatnot). This means that in one sense it is like art, that they have control over how things play out. However, my original point of bringing up this distinction was to back up my claim that a Bioware game even has more in common with your average board game than your average piece of art. Sure, it has in some sense elements of both, and to compare it directly to either would be a waste of time because they're not the same. But, the way a Bioware game is 'consumed' ultimately is very similar to the way a board game is 'consumed', but not much at all like the way a piece of art is.
But see, that's where I think Bioware could potentially disagree. If art is really about the creator's intent, a criticism I often see levied at games, and Bioware feels they've met that standard as creators, they're expressed control over their work according to their own satisfaction.
Say we were having this conversation in the context of say Halo's cinematics and whether we should allow nude characters. Best case scenario we could say parts of it are chess and parts of it are a film. But the cinematics are much more likely to resemble the film-aspects than the game-aspects. Are we going to say that Halo's cinematics resemble more of a video game than they do a movie? That would be kinda bizarre, and in that context, it would be pretty accurate to say Halo is also a film. Similarly, we have Mass Effect, which has a huge emphasis on writing, plot, characters, etc, which best case scenario I think would be described as a choose your own adventure book. We even see this to a large extent in terms of how often fans tend to criticize Bioware for railroading their characters, which is also highly common in that format.
Or let's even take someone like Ken Levine, Bioshock's creator. When he heard the idea that fans wanted ME3's ending changed, he was horrified by the idea. He definitely seems to view his creations as being completely the result of his desire/intent.
It's the difference in how we consume it, not how they created it, that in my opinion brings Bioware games closer to board games than art. Bioware games in specific, not unlike board games, intensely focus on player choice and control. While games can't give ultimate control generally speaking, and usually have more restrictions that board games (this is pretty much by default true if there's any narrative whatsoever), it is still ultimately very akin to the way an average board game works.
Fair enough, but to be clear: this has some dangerous implications for the traditional definition of art. Movies, especially in comparison to novels, are a less "free form" method of story-telling, where we have less control in how concepts/ideas are presented to us.
Novels, where everything takes place in your mind, can only define so many aspects of a scene. In a sense, this would place film on a higher pedestal than novels as an art form, simply given that we have less "control". I'm cool with that, but there was a point where films were considered as incapable of being true art. So that would be an interesting reversal of roles just given that general trend. I'm not sure it's something that more "old school" artists could even comprehend as a possibility.
K. That's fine. You're going off the deep end. She said god, so I'd assume that would rule out most of the other religions of the world, especially polytheism. I guess I'd be wrong about that.
Edit : Just, read. https://en.wikipedia...al_Christianity
You wound me.
In the rest of my post, the parts you snipped, I established that I'm not assuming she subscribes to any specific religion.
Your claim however, that belief in God automatically equates to Christianity is not one I'm inclined to take seriously, 'cause of how there are so many other religions to also take into account.
Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are the main monotheistic religions, but even monotheist -- especially in a sci-fi setting -- doesn't necessarily mean any of those.. Christinaitiy or not.
A lot of people just a have more general wide-brush view of it.. Kind of a generic, pop culture sense of religion where a "God" is part of their general thinking, but not much else. There's also a ton of new age types who are like this. Go walk into some shop full of psychic books and crystals. You'll find monotheists there too.. Despite people thinking they're all kooky witches or hippies or something.
If they wanted to give her a specific religion, they could have. I mean, Cerberus delved with the Catholic Church in their history... they apparently even assassinated the Pope, just to plant a more human-centric stooge.
Also, Jack's apparently some kind of believer herself. Except she believes God is a woman.
Given that I personally believe in a higher, intelligent power that I choose to call God as shorthand, but do not identify as a Christian or hold the Christian bible or teachings as a philosophy to live by, I'm inclined to agree with Lady A on this one.
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