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An Open Letter to Bioware Regarding Explicit Content


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#3251
Iakus

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ME2's gameplay was widely seen as improvement because it was actually playable which is an improvement over ME1.

ME1's gameplay needed some refining, but was far from"unplayable"

 

Much as I might love KotOR, this hits the nail right on the head. I always forget how awkward the movement mechanics were, among a million other things.

 

In general though, Bioware's cRPG's were a mixed bag for a number of reasons. The first time I played Baldur's Gate 1 was actually right after ME2. I appreciated the legacy, but after a lot of build-up about how amazing the narrative/characters were, I was more than a bit disappointed.

I just finished a KOTOR2 playthru not long ago.  It had been several years since I played it, so I needed some time to get used to the controls.  But it wasn't all that awkward, once I got re-aclimated to the semi-turn based combat.

 

Baldur's Gate is, obviously, going to be different from Mass Effect.  It's real-time -with pause and based on 2nd edition D&D.  It's more akin to tabletop playing than modern computer games.

 

ANd if you were playing original Baldur's Gate, you really need the NPC Project mod  ;)


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#3252
rashie

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Much as I might love KotOR, this hits the nail right on the head. I always forget how awkward the movement mechanics were, among a million other things.

 

In general though, Bioware's cRPG's were a mixed bag for a number of reasons. The first time I played Baldur's Gate 1 was actually right after ME2. I appreciated the legacy, but after a lot of build-up about how amazing the narrative/characters were, I was more than a bit disappointed.

If you skipped out on the sequel to baldur's gate, id suggest checking that out.

 

Its still a 15 years old AD&D table top style rpg, but the narrative focus is far more prioritized.


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#3253
Iakus

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If you skipped out on the sequel to baldur's gate, id suggest checking that out.

 

Its still a 15 years old AD&D table top style rpg, but the narrative focus is far more prioritized.

Yes, BG2 unlike Mass Effect 2, took the original, and actually tweaked it to make it better.

 

Rather than flush everything and do things completely different, which seems to be the current trend.



#3254
Il Divo

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Honestly, given those choices, I personally would have much preferred if they had flushed everything about BG1. I have played BG2 (though haven't beaten it) which wasn't that bad, but the parts I enjoyed had little to do with BG1. Just my two cents.



#3255
von uber

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Have to say I bounced right off BG2.

#3256
Andrew Lucas

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ME1's gameplay needed some refining, but was far from"unplayable"
 


I agree, it was clunky, uninspired, broken and rough. Combine that with the 'steady' FPS and you have one awesome combat experience.

#3257
Seraphim24

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Or it is possible many of us have played them all and just thought most of the old games were terrible.
 

 

Perhaps many of you played them all and failed to appreciate how good they were, hardcore gaming by definition isn't for everyone.

 

Not to be too prickly or pointed with you, or to suggest that ME2 is unworthy, but these things become increasingly subtle, and you invited it upon yourself by saying they were "terrible."

 

Heck I can remember a joke from Portalbendarwinden in BG1 that was this tiny textual box side quest  meaningless thing in a tabletop inspired RPG, and that insanely over the top the joke is one of the seeds that eventually germinated into the sarcastic hawke that people enjoy so much.

 

Much as I might love KotOR, this hits the nail right on the head. I always forget how awkward the movement mechanics were, among a million other things.

 

In general though, Bioware's cRPG's were a mixed bag for a number of reasons. The first time I played Baldur's Gate 1 was actually right after ME2. I appreciated the legacy, but after a lot of build-up about how amazing the narrative/characters were, I was more than a bit disappointed.

 

I don't know what people told you but I'm not saying it's going to (or would) revolutionize your entire concept of self and teleport you to another realm where Baldur's Gate is the grand champion of the universe, but nonetheless, there is a difference favoring Baldur's Gate, then favoring NWN/KOTOR, and then finally favoring ME1/DA:O.

 

Bioware's CRPGs are a mixed bag because they were descended or made simultaneously with Planescape Torment which was the original kind of narrative heavy CRPG, but which was actually descended from an appreciation for table top gaming at Interplay generally, not necessarily strict 1 to 1, but at any intersection of narrative and tabletop gaming.

 

To put it more simply, Bioware emphasized narratives from the beginning, while in modern times it seems there is a tendency to draw massive gaps for example between like Torment, Baldur's Gate 2, Mass Effect 1, Dragon Age 2, but the reality is if you are really pointed you could label them all as "narrative-heavy" CRPGs.

 

The truest or biggest divergence in experience as far as CRPGs go is with the Fallout series, which was more directly based on GURPSs and the game environment in general is actually pointing more towards tabletop games.

 

All that aside, however, those differences remain within the CRPGs generally, and if they weren't substantial, I would not have noted them, They are small in some cases, larger in others, but it's like moving from a 9 to an 8 to a 7 and finally to a 6 or something. And as I said, that favors the earlier incarnations.

 

Have to say I bounced right off BG2.

 

BG2 is probably one of the weakest early Bioware games, BG1 had strong parts was experimental though too, I've yet to find many people who would wholeheartedly condemn NWN and KOTOR on anything other than their dated graphics and presentation.

 

Edit: Ok, so movement, right, that would be a thing, except moving in ME2 was that cinematic slow blur style of movement common in FPS where reloading and hiding is based on discrete cover points and consequently movement feels awkward and unnatural, there really isn't anything all that smooth about ME2.

 

Given that ME2 lacks even basic features of the TPS genre that Gears of War 1 had back in '06 such as rolling and going from cover to cover, it isn't. That, combined with ME2 shedding any pretense of being an RPG,  makes ME2 a sub-standard TPS by any measure. What saves it as a game is the TPS and casting hybrid gameplay, that they didn't manage to refine properly until ME3.

 

And don't get me started on how clueless a lot of people in this fanbase are about gaming. I've seen some of the most ridiculous statements on here by people, from them saying ME2 has better mechanics than Gears, JRPGs being slammed for being "linear" and "railroaded" while praising the ME games with a complete lack of self-awareness(not to mention there being various JRPGs that wipe the floor with ME in that department) and just yesterday, I saw someone stating 99% of video game protagonists are "straight white males". Smh

 

Skipped Gears of War, but since you mention it I did look at the trailers some time ago because I realized I had missed the franchise because it just seemed like an even slower paced FPS than Halo which was already so much slower than Wolfenstein and Doom that it was kind of reaching molasses level.

 

Somehow getting an XBOX for Halo which just wasn't crazy exciting to begin with didn't work, but to be honest maybe playing them anyway is a good investment, then it becomes easier to know where things start and end, plus, might even have some fun.

 

I am super familiar with the JRPGs being linear part, FFX13 and ME2 are corridor sims through and through, but one was treated abhorrently for whatever reason and the other one piles up GOTYs like candy.

 

And it's not you can't find the roots of FF13 in 10, which was very linear but is treated well.

 

And that isn't even to say FF13 didn't have a few cool parts, sheesh, most of the time people cranky about games don't even dislike the games all that much, they just see these massive discrepancies and treatment and it's hard not to comment on it.



#3258
Il Divo

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Perhaps many of you played them all and failed to appreciate how good they were, hardcore gaming by definition isn't for everyone.

 

Not to be too prickly or pointed with you, or to suggest that ME2 is unworthy, but these things become increasingly subtle, and you invited it upon yourself by saying they were "terrible."

 

Heck I can remember a joke from Portalbendarwinden in BG1 that was this tiny textual box side quest  meaningless thing in a tabletop inspired RPG, and that insanely over the top the joke is one of the seeds that eventually germinated into the sarcastic hawke that people enjoy so much.

 

But hardcore gaming is not synonymous with Baldur's Gate. Hardcore gaming as a concept simply denotes that a game requires time/energy to invest in to become competent. It's a bit like someone saying they dislike Mass Effect, so they must not like sci-fi. The particular and the category are not synonymous.

 

(Just my reasons):

 

Baldur's Gate isn't terrible because it's dedicated to hardcore gaming. It's terrible because the plot consists of a scavenger hunt for letters, the dialogue is laughably bad/one-dimensional across the board, the characters are essentially cartoon characters without any real conversations to be had, the PC himself is essentially required to be cartoonishly evil or good, the side quests are on the quality level of DA:I (ignoring tales of the sword coast), and there is an insane level of emphasis on wandering around/dungeon-crawling, without the opportunity to engage in anything else.

 

And once that's gone, you're essentially left with the gameplay. I always hated Vancian Casting, so my group and I would often use other rule sets, etc.

 

That's where my dislike stems from. "The people who love ME2 probably never played the older Bioware games". In my experiences on here, the first thing mentioned when people talk about how great the old games were and how bad modern Bioware games are is the story. And that's a very dangerous route to go down when 2 of the big Bioware 3 were BG1 and Neverwinter Nights.

 

I don't know what people told you but I'm not saying it's going to (or would) revolutionize your entire concept of self and teleport you to another realm where Baldur's Gate is the grand champion of the universe, but nonetheless, there is a difference favoring Baldur's Gate, then favoring NWN/KOTOR, and then finally favoring ME1/DA:O.

 

 

So, what is the difference that might cause someone to favor other Bioware titles? Because they all tend to have something Bioware does remarkably badly or remarkably well that might cause someone to dislike them altogether.


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#3259
Iakus

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Baldur's Gate isn't terrible because it's dedicated to hardcore gaming. It's terrible because the plot consists of a scavenger hunt for letters, the dialogue is laughably bad/one-dimensional across the board, the characters are essentially cartoon characters without any real conversations to be had, the PC himself is essentially required to be cartoonishly evil or good, the side quests are on the quality level of DA:I (ignoring tales of the sword coast), and there is an insane level of emphasis on wandering around/dungeon-crawling, without the opportunity to engage in anything else.

 

I will admit that the first two points re things that BG2 improved on (Scavenger hunt main plot and lack of depth for characters, especially followers)

 

  As for the other points, that's different from ME2, how?  :P

 

On a side note (well, a side-side note given how far things have drifted) have you tried Pillars of Eternity?


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#3260
rashie

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I am super familiar with the JRPGs being linear part, FFX13 and ME2 are corridor sims through and through, but one was treated abhorrently for whatever reason and the other one piles up GOTYs like candy.

Could be because FF13 its quite literally a single hallway the entire way through right up until chapter 11 or so out of 13, only to open up a bit at a small plains area and then go right back into being final hallway after. It also treats the player like he is in a tutorial for about 80% of the game.

 

ME2 actually gives you choices on when to go where, even if its linear inside its missions, FF13 doesn't.

 

LR is the best game out of the FF13 mainline games, and unsurprisingly its also the one that fully did away with the hallway design.



#3261
Il Divo

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I will admit that the first two points re things that BG2 improved on (Scavenger hunt main plot and lack of depth for characters, especially followers)

 

  As for the other points, that's different from ME2, how?  :P

 

On a side note (well, a side-side note given how far things have drifted) have you tried Pillars of Eternity?

 

Ayep. I loved it. I haven't been able to play as much as I would like, but the 10 or so hours I was able to sneak in had me captivated. ​The world was interesting, the dialogue was Torment-esque, etc, etc. And if I recall correctly, Vancian casting was minimal/non-existent for many of the classes.  

 

It's a shame because I think I would enjoy a Baldur's Gate remake, but in lieu of making a full on upgrade, the Enhanced Edition felt largely like a retread of the original and all its flaws. That was essentially my first thought while hitting up Eternity, at least.  



#3262
Ahglock

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Oh yeah, ME2's gameplay can be very underwhelming. ME3 got it much better, but it's not even up there with Gears 2 in the TPS genre. No doubt.


ME2 gameplay is superior to gears IMO. People put way too much weight on minor features like blind firing and rolling. Oh looks I can roll so amazing. Ill take biotics and tech powers over all the missed features any day. About the only thing gears does better is it gave a couple spots where you could fork on the map but even still it remained a linear shooters, so whatever. Don't get me wrong attack of the mole people is fun, but ME2 had better gameplay.
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#3263
Il Divo

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^That's kinda how I feel. I'm not a hardcore tps fan, but in general, I simply find Mass Effect's mix of casting/shooting more enjoyable. That actually goes for ME1-3.


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#3264
AlanC9

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Perhaps many of you played them all and failed to appreciate how good they were, hardcore gaming by definition isn't for everyone.


Or perhaps you're overrating them. This sort of argument can't ever go anywhere.
 

To put it more simply, Bioware emphasized narratives from the beginning, while in modern times it seems there is a tendency to draw massive gaps for example between like Torment, Baldur's Gate 2, Mass Effect 1, Dragon Age 2, but the reality is if you are really pointed you could label them all as "narrative-heavy" CRPGs.
 
The truest or biggest divergence in experience as far as CRPGs go is with the Fallout series, which was more directly based on GURPSs and the game environment in general is actually pointing more towards tabletop games.


FWIW, I've always felt that Bio games modelled PnP better the further away from BG1 they got. Of course, PnP experiences differ from campaign to campaign.
 

BG2 is probably one of the weakest early Bioware games, BG1 had strong parts was experimental though too, I've yet to find many people who would wholeheartedly condemn NWN and KOTOR on anything other than their dated graphics and presentation.


Plenty of people wholeheartedly condemned the NWN OC, and SoU wasn't all that great either. The highest praise people here gave to HotU was that it was close to being as good as BG2.
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#3265
wolfhowwl

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I still remember when a hipster on here claimed that ME2 was worse than NWN OC.


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#3266
rashie

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Out of the neverwinter series, the only id consider actually being good rather than just ok/mediocre down to god awful, would be mask of the betrayer in NWN2, although that wasn't a bioware campaign.

 

The real strength of NWN1 and by extension NWN2 was really in its custom campaigns community content.


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#3267
Xetykins

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My grandchildren aren't adults or it wouldn't be an issue for me.
 
I understand that the game is clearly labelled 'Mature', but the quality of the story, the development of the characters, the plot and subplots are all wonderful and artfully crafted. I wish to provide to my grandkids such a tale as it is wonderfully told.
 
I was expressing a preference, a wish, that there were a way for the young to engage in the richness of these conversations with diverse characters who are straight and others who are gay and others who are bisexual without it inevitably leading to a sexual encounter.
 
Engaging in conversation as a male with a male friend who happens to be gay does not result in my being gay. My friends are as respectful of my straight preferences as I am respectful of theirs.
 
I believe it would be a greater good to teach mutual respect and sensitivity, that meaningful conversations are not always foreplay.
 
I wasn't at all trolling. I consider it a missed opportunity for our shared gaming culture to nurture mutual tolerance and respect between the LGBT and straight cultures just as sensitively as we should between men and women.
 
When there is potential romance between male and female characters it can actually be difficult to discover the exact combination of choices and timing in the plot to reach a romantic relationship (I am mostly thinking of one of the mass effect romance options between male shep and Ashley). Yet a romantic relationhip with LGBT characters is almost unavoidble unless the player is already aware of what those heart tips mean.
 
Or do LGBT enthusiasts really believe that all non-sexual relationships must be kept shallow unless the objective of both parties is to engage in sex?


I am not trying to disrespect you or anything but shouldn't you buy your grand children T rated games like for example Ori and the Blind forest? Because, yes this game has a wonderful story, but quite frankly it's not something young tender minds can wrap around.

Also sexual content is sexual content, regardless of who's doing it, straight or gay. I'm baffled why that concerned you more for your grand "children" than "exploding heads", nudity (strippers), strong language, alcohol consumption etc.

I guess this is a case of different folks/strokes and all that jazz.
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#3268
AlanC9

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I've always given the NWN2 OC a pass, because I think it was a weird experiment in seeing just how many fantasy cliches they could throw into one game without the whole thing exploding.

#3269
N7M

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Yep and wanna ruin everybody's fun in the process.
 
 
Before I joined the BSN, I could never imagine complaining about anything. Nearly a year after joining however, I find myself watching stuff on TV.. playing games, reading books and wondering, "Would people complain about this? Oh sh*t.. did I just see somebody's head get sliced off? Oh no, is my favourite show gonna get banned now?" :rolleyes:
 
I'm totally cool with an "explicit content" toggle. However, what determines explicity or offensive? It's according to whatever nutjob is sitting in front of the screen.
 
See the example you mentioned.

reading books?
Does that include books without pictures?
 

"Yep and wanna ruin everybody's fun in the process."

 

Who is this everybody?



#3270
sortiv

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Four months, and 132 pages later - OP is still defending his post. 

 

Friendly advice: go ahead and learn from people's opinions rather than trying to correct them (at least on this one). 

 

Another piece of friendly advice: there is nothing even remotely explicit about sex. You should try being less repressed. 


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#3271
Ahglock

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The horse you are on is pretty high. Can you even hear the OPs opinion from up there?

#3272
rashie

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Four months, and 132 pages later - OP is still defending his post. 

 

Friendly advice: go ahead and learn from people's opinions rather than trying to correct them (at least on this one). 

 

Another piece of friendly advice: there is nothing even remotely explicit about sex. You should try being less repressed. 

The OP hasn't been on this site since August, its not him keeping the thread going.

 

It was dead for a while but got necroed again.


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#3273
Andrew Lucas

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ME2 gameplay is superior to gears IMO. People put way too much weight on minor features like blind firing and rolling. Oh looks I can roll so amazing. Ill take biotics and tech powers over all the missed features any day. About the only thing gears does better is it gave a couple spots where you could fork on the map but even still it remained a linear shooters, so whatever. Don't get me wrong attack of the mole people is fun, but ME2 had better gameplay.


It's not only that man, Gears' gameplay is a lot more fluid in every way. It feels responsive and appropriate, while ME2's is robotic and rough.

Each to their own .
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#3274
Ahglock

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It might be a PC thing but me2 never felt robotic or rough to me.

#3275
von uber

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Mass Effect is really easy on PC due to the M+K.