3411 réponses à ce sujet

[wyrdx]

Or maybe you went a little bit overboard with the sesquipedalian loquaciousness, to the degree that it detracted from the actual point of your assertion, and no person's individual attentiveness to explicit content has--like--totes anything to do with their reading comprehension. 

 

Or, perhaps, you're interpreting things in a way that is most comfortable for you to remain inert. The subject was understood and engaged properly by another poster. You're simply looking for excuses not to think nor engage the topic while trying to look cool. Droll.

[AlanC9]

What is wrong with asking for a choice?  Why does it make you sad that there are people who don't want explicit content?
 

How does the choice operate, again? Is the plan restricted NPC design to enable PC choice, with all NOCs being willing to defer to the PC in this matter? Or multiple NPCs as in DA:I, some"explicit" and others not?

[AlanC9]

It's not only Benezia but every character you interact with from the moment you enter Noveria's arena including port control. This also includes the male characters Inamorda, Lorik, Anoleis and others. From the obvious like the unreachable and unreasonable Stirling, the standoffish Matsuo to Calis and Iallis. Then there is the pivotal decision involving an aspect of the Ice Queen and a major plot and character development for the PC in the Rachni Queen. This is all easily apparent, if one has the tools and capability to delve into it and can see past superficial titillation.

You're starting to sound like an IT theorist here.

[Iakus]

How does the choice operate, again? Is the plan restricted NPC design to enable PC choice, with all NOCs being willing to defer to the PC in this matter? Or multiple NPCs as in DA:I, some"explicit" and others not?

Isn't that what debate is about?  How something might or might not be practical to apply?  Rather than, you know, mocking the OP in general or accusing him of censorship.

[wyrdx]

You're starting to sound like an IT theorist here.

 

Ah, another personal attack rather than addressing the points. These are going to have to be reported. 

[Lady Artifice]

Or, perhaps, you're interpreting things in a way that is most comfortable for you to remain inert. The subject was understood and engaged properly by another poster. You're simply looking for excuses not to think nor engage the topic while trying to look cool. Droll.

 

Here's the thing, your posts are rude and condescending.

 

I've engaged this topic many times, and I've participated in the argument since the early pages. I am neither inert nor absent of thought on the matter. My opinion is different from yours, not lesser. It would be helpful if we could maturely indulge those differences without it becoming some kind of weird grudge match between oppositional sides. 

[Heimdall]

Ah, another personal attack rather than addressing the points. These are going to have to be reported.

I assume he means that you're reading layers of subtext into a rather straightforward collection of tropes slapped together, like most ME writing.

[wyrdx]

I assume he means that you're reading layers of subtext into a rather straightforward collection of tropes slapped together, like most ME writing.

 

Perhaps. IT threads were of little interest to me. Yet, throwing labels isn't helpful. These tropes don't seem so straightforward and slapped together as some claim, however. There is a reason I didn't mention the other major missions. They are similarly designed explorations of archetypal concepts but the archetypes are different. If it's so straight forward, they should be easily identified by those that claim they are so straightforward.  

[Chealec]

It's not only Benezia but every character you interact with from the moment you enter Noveria's arena including port control. This also includes the male characters Inamorda, Lorik, Anoleis and others. From the obvious like the unreachable and unreasonable Stirling, the standoffish Matsuo to Calis and Iallis. Then there is the pivotal decision involving an aspect of the Ice Queen and a major plot and character development for the PC in the Rachni Queen. This is all easily apparent, if one has the tools and capability to delve into it and can see past superficial titillation.  

 

There really isn't any titillation to look past though - unless you're referring to Benezia's low-cut dress? Barely covering grey, zombie-grandma boobs...

 

The Ice Queen archetype is, when you strip it right down, a woman who's imperious and (seemingly) emotionless; Benezia doesn't fit either of those, she's a broken doll, the Grieving Mother from Pillars or Eternity. She's more MPD than anything else - except one of those personalities is the direct result of external influence (Sovereign). There's nothing profound there.

 

None of the other characters you mentioned even really had enough personality to fill a tea cup - I had to look most of them up on the Wiki to even remember who they are. You couldn't really attribute an archetype to any of them, there just wasn't enough character there to do so. Stirling was there to start a fight and Matsuo may as well have been Avina... they're pretty much all just scenery. Anoleis and Gianna are about the only ones with any padding to their character at all, one blatently representing corrupt corporate greed and the other "the cop".

 

The choice with the Rachni Queen is a fairly transparent "taming your dragon" moment - you either overcome your "base" human instincts, your fear... or succumb to it, you either free the Rachni Queen or destroy it. The game even puts a "demon" over one shoulder, in the form of Wrex (for instance) representing your base animal instincts and an "angel" over the other (Liara) representing compassion and empathy, "higher" intellectual morality. 

 

The whole scene is just Shepard's very own lightweight Gom Jabbar.

 

 

I don't really get why you hold Noveria in such high esteem to be honest - there's more depth in the interplay between Miranda and Jack.

[wyrdx]

There really isn't any titillation to look past though - unless you're referring to Benezia's low-cut dress? Barely covering grey, zombie-grandma boobs...

 

The Ice Queen archetype is, when you strip it right down, a woman who's imperious and (seemingly) emotionless; Benezia doesn't fit either of those, she's a broken doll, the Grieving Mother from Pillars or Eternity. She's more MPD than anything else - except one of those personalities is the direct result of external influence (Sovereign). There's nothing profound there.

 

None of the other characters you mentioned even really had enough personality to fill a tea cup - I had to look most of them up on the Wiki to even remember who they are. You couldn't really attribute an archetype to any of them, there just wasn't enough character there to do so. Stirling was there to start a fight and Matsuo may as well have been Avina... they're pretty much all just scenery. Anoleis and Gianna are about the only ones with any padding to their character at all, one blatently representing corrupt corporate greed and the other "the cop".

 

The choice with the Rachni Queen is a fairly transparent "taming your dragon" moment - you either overcome your "base" human instincts, your fear... or succumb to it, you either free the Rachni Queen or destroy it. The game even puts a "demon" over one shoulder, in the form of Wrex (for instance) representing your base animal instincts and an "angel" over the other (Liara) representing compassion and empathy, "higher" intellectual morality. 

 

The whole scene is just Shepard's very own lightweight Gom Jabbar.

 

 

I don't really get why you hold Noveria in such high esteem to be honest - there's more depth in the interplay between Miranda and Jack.

 

The entirety of the Noveria mission is the Ice Queen. The individual aspects of the Noveria mission are facets of that archetype and not meant to convey the whole. It is a work of art. That is where my appreciation comes from. The Ice Queen was explored top to bottom and back again in that mission.  

 

You make some good points about Benezia which I will address when I get back. The Gom Jabbar reference is excellent and as a Bene Gesserit device is also related to the Ice Queen through Mother Mohiam. 

[AlanC9]

Ah, another personal attack rather than addressing the points. These are going to have to be reported.

Nah. Heimdall called it; all I see there is projecting an essentially arbitrary pattern onto a typical Bio grab-bag of repurposed tropes, which is pretty much how IT worked (although the psychological process which drives people to IT is different.) I assumed everyone would know what I meant when I mentioned IT, which was a bit lazy of me.

[von uber]

 The individual aspects of the Noveria mission are facets of that archetype and not meant to convey the whole. It is a work of art.

 

More like a Resident Evil 2 ripoff.

 

[wyrdx]

...I see it!

*spam snip*

What do you see?

[wyrdx]

Nah. Heimdall called it; all I see there is projecting an essentially arbitrary pattern onto a typical Bio grab-bag of repurposed tropes, which is pretty much how IT worked (although the psychological process which drives people to IT is different.) I assumed everyone would know what I meant when I mentioned IT, which was a bit lazy of me.

and what you were saying connects to the topic of explicit content in what way?

[wyrdx]

More like a Resident Evil 2 ripoff.
 
*image snip*

Brilliant deconstruction. You should be proud of yourself.

[wyrdx]

There really isn't any titillation to look past though - unless you're referring to Benezia's low-cut dress? Barely covering grey, zombie-grandma boobs...
 
The Ice Queen archetype is, when you strip it right down, a woman who's imperious and (seemingly) emotionless; Benezia doesn't fit either of those, she's a broken doll, the Grieving Mother from Pillars or Eternity. She's more MPD than anything else - except one of those personalities is the direct result of external influence (Sovereign). There's nothing profound there.
 
None of the other characters you mentioned even really had enough personality to fill a tea cup - I had to look most of them up on the Wiki to even remember who they are. You couldn't really attribute an archetype to any of them, there just wasn't enough character there to do so. Stirling was there to start a fight and Matsuo may as well have been Avina... they're pretty much all just scenery. Anoleis and Gianna are about the only ones with any padding to their character at all, one blatently representing corrupt corporate greed and the other "the cop".
 
The choice with the Rachni Queen is a fairly transparent "taming your dragon" moment - you either overcome your "base" human instincts, your fear... or succumb to it, you either free the Rachni Queen or destroy it. The game even puts a "demon" over one shoulder, in the form of Wrex (for instance) representing your base animal instincts and an "angel" over the other (Liara) representing compassion and empathy, "higher" intellectual morality. 
 
The whole scene is just Shepard's very own lightweight Gom Jabbar.
 
 
I don't really get why you hold Noveria in such high esteem to be honest - there's more depth in the interplay between Miranda and Jack.

The aloof nature of the archetype needn't be grounded in an imperious nature but, to strip it down further, simply an isolated nature. Although, that is not its only characteristic. Benezia is isolated from herself, her family, all she lived for before indoctrination. The Ice Queen, in the case of indoctrinated Benezia, is a fabrication. It isn't genuine, as you say, but for different reasons than you're stating. The isolation is from her true nature and her mind sterilized by the force of putrefaction rather than purification. 

 

----

On another note, one the small things that stands out in the companion dialogue during the Noveria mission is one of Kaidan's lines about getting snow in his boots. Which means to me he's getting cold feet dealing with the Ice Queen. 

 

Artful applications in game design are a way to explore explicit content without resorting to gross representations. 

[SnakeCode]

The parents of your 15 y-o cousins are the issue there, not the game.  The game carries the rating it does for a reason.  If it didn't have that content, it wouldn't be the same game.  There are plenty of games for those offended by violence/nudity/vulgarity.  That doesn't happen to be one of them.  Nor should ME:A be one either. 

 

Wonder if the OP watches only ClearPlay-bowldwerized versions of movies?  The results of that effort can only be described as pathetic.  What the OP is asking for is the CRPG equivalent of a "fig leaf" plastered onto the game the way ones were once added to paintings and statues to avoid offending the sensibilities of certain people because they, you know... actually represented things as they are.  (Shocking, I know.)

 

Unfortunately we're seeing this kind of attitude increasing all the time, and it manifests itself in different ways.

 

"How dare you tell me it's MY responsibility to make sure my children don't watch/play anything that's unsuitable for them. People should stop creating things with problematic (violent, sexual, foul language etc) content in the first place!" They don't actually care that there are clear measures to prevent children from consuming this stuff, what with their rating being clearly labelled on every box.

 

It's the same as " Don't tell me to lock my door, tell thieves to not rob my house!" or "Don't tell me I should take preventative measures, tell muggers, rapists etc to not assault me!"

 

Soon it'll be " Don't tell me I should warn my kids to not talk to strangers, tell strangers not to talk to my children!"

[Puddi III]

*spam snip*

That you don't know what you're talking about, as usual.

Noveria being an ice world and having characters vaguely describable as having 'cold' personalities has bupkis to do with the inclusion or exclusion of explicit or titillating content.

This is what defending the closure of off-topic leads to.

[UnspeakableCat]

This whole topic is just pointless.

If you're not confortable with some 'parts' of what Mass Effect is, you should just play something else.

It's like saying 'I love Titanic, but the love scene in the car offended me and I hate to see all those people dying in the end'.

Guess what? That is what the movie is all about: a love story and a tragedy.

 

Mass Effect is no different, it's about character interaction, war, honor, loyalty, sacrifice, love (only if you want. NOBODY forces you to romance someone if you don't want to) and death.

If you can't handle some of these aspects of the game, just go and play something else. Mass Effect (and RPGs in general) are not for you.

[Il Divo]

The aloof nature of the archetype needn't be grounded in an imperious nature but, to strip it down further, simply an isolated nature. Although, that is not its only characteristic. Benezia is isolated from herself, her family, all she lived for before indoctrination. The Ice Queen, in the case of indoctrinated Benezia, is a fabrication. It isn't genuine, as you say, but for different reasons than you're stating. The isolation is from her true nature and her mind sterilized by the force of putrefaction rather than purification. 

 

----

On another note, one the small things that stands out in the companion dialogue during the Noveria mission is one of Kaidan's lines about getting snow in his boots. Which means to me he's getting cold feet dealing with the Ice Queen. 

 

Artful applications in game design are a way to explore explicit content without resorting to gross representations. 

 

So it looks like Alan was right to classify you right alongside the IT theorists.
 

[Chealec]

The entirety of the Noveria mission is the Ice Queen. The individual aspects of the Noveria mission are facets of that archetype and not meant to convey the whole. It is a work of art. That is where my appreciation comes from. The Ice Queen was explored top to bottom and back again in that mission. 

 

I'm finding it difficult to apply a personality archetype to a "setting" ... it would be like thinking of the stage as an actor; the stage is impersonal, it has no appreciation of the comedy or tragedy played out on it. Noveria itself doesn't care - yes it may be cold and impersonal but so's Hoth or Pluto, a planet can't be anything other than impersonal, I don't believe in Gaia.

 

 

 

The aloof nature of the archetype needn't be grounded in an imperious nature but, to strip it down further, simply an isolated nature. Although, that is not its only characteristic. Benezia is isolated from herself, her family, all she lived for before indoctrination. The Ice Queen, in the case of indoctrinated Benezia, is a fabrication. It isn't genuine, as you say, but for different reasons than you're stating. The isolation is from her true nature and her mind sterilized by the force of putrefaction rather than purification. 

 

----

On another note, one the small things that stands out in the companion dialogue during the Noveria mission is one of Kaidan's lines about getting snow in his boots. Which means to me he's getting cold feet dealing with the Ice Queen. 

 

Artful applications in game design are a way to explore explicit content without resorting to gross representations. 

 

The "isolated" part of the Ice Queen archetype is the Queen, it's the fact that she's an Ice Queen that makes her imperious, or aloof... untouchable. An African Queen, as an archetype, for instance, is something else entirely:

 

 

Perhaps fiery or passionate but still, ultimately isolated - perhaps feared.

 

I'm fine with your take on Benezia - but I just don't agree that, that makes her an Ice Queen... and I'm still not seeing any suppressed sexual tension (socially acceptable or not) or titillation in Noveria, the setting or story, metaphorical or otherwise. There's no explicit content being explored, just a series of pretty standard plot devices and characters which have been used time and time again and thrown into a diorama lifted straight from The Thing (John Carpenter version). The corrupt corporate exec (complete with goons), the good undercover cop, the blackmail victim; apart from the setting there's not a lot there that's not a million miles away from half a dozen James Bond films.

 

 

As for Kaiden .. heh, no idea, he's sat on the bench every game I've played (bar one)... until getting him killed off.

[wyrdx]

That you don't know what you're talking about, as usual.

Noveria being an ice world and having characters vaguely describable as having 'cold' personalities has bupkis to do with the inclusion or exclusion of explicit or titillating content.

This is what defending the closure of off-topic leads to.

Thank you for clarifying it was a personal attack. 

[AlanC9]

and what you were saying connects to the topic of explicit content in what way?

The post I was replying to had nothing to do with explicit content either. Of course, since you wrote it, you knew that already.

What, should I have not replied because you went off topic? Presumably not, so where are you going with this?

[wyrdx]

I'm finding it difficult to apply a personality archetype to a "setting" ... it would be like thinking of the stage as an actor; the stage is impersonal, it has no appreciation of the comedy or tragedy played out on it. Noveria itself doesn't care - yes it may be cold and impersonal but so's Hoth or Pluto, a planet can't be anything other than impersonal, I don't believe in Gaia.

 

 

 

 

The "isolated" part of the Ice Queen archetype is the Queen, it's the fact that she's an Ice Queen that makes her imperious, or aloof... untouchable. An African Queen, as an archetype, for instance, is something else entirely:

 

 

Perhaps fiery or passionate but still, ultimately isolated - perhaps feared.

 

I'm fine with your take on Benezia - but I just don't agree that, that makes her an Ice Queen... and I'm still not seeing any suppressed sexual tension (socially acceptable or not) or titillation in Noveria, the setting or story, metaphorical or otherwise. There's no explicit content being explored, just a series of pretty standard plot devices and characters which have been used time and time again and thrown into a diorama lifted straight from The Thing (John Carpenter version). The corrupt corporate exec (complete with goons), the good undercover cop, the blackmail victim; apart from the setting there's not a lot there that's not a million miles away from half a dozen James Bond films.

 

 

As for Kaiden .. heh, no idea, he's sat on the bench every game I've played (bar one)... until getting him killed off.

 

 

The belief in Gaia or, preferably, panpsychism isn't necessary to construct or understand an artistic piece. A romance can be communicated by sound that doesn't mean the sound is the romance. Noveria is, in a base sense, a computer program. The art is in what it being communicated by that programming. All the elements come together to convey a theme. In the case of Noveria, it's the Ice Queen.

 

Yes, I have been intentionally avoiding the sexual undercurrent of Noveria that I mentioned. Part of the reason is some posters are attacking me on a personal level (it seems a few are following me from other threads) which is becoming troubling. Some can hardly understand this conversation where it's at currently and think their lack of understanding has objective substance. It is possible when this conversation moves to a sexual level that it may have even more deleterious effects upon their self control and the attacks will increase. It is my hope the moderation will be more robust to allow the conversation to develop into that area. I would like to share but it doesn't seem a safe place to do so currently. 

 

As to the isolated. Perhaps Emotionally Isolated would be better. There is a distance between the Ice Queen and the rest of the world not imparted from their worldly status which isn't a necessity to be an Ice Queen. 

[Thandal N'Lyman]

No, OP is asking for more options for players.  Please reread.

 

I did read the OP.  He is, indeed, asking BioWare to bowdlerize their own work. 

He's asking them give him a toggle to slap a fig leaf over the "naughty bits" that upset him.

 

I'm saying, "If the game upsets you, don't buy it."