3411 réponses à ce sujet

[Silcron]

I'm all for trying to analyze things in a different way, like comparing a setting to a character archetype. I can roll with that. But so far I don't see a comparison, just that some words for the specific setting and the archetype match and that's it. (Noveria has ice. Ice Queen. Queen being a female in a position of power, Benezia.)

For example:

What do you think those final words meant to her character? 
 
On one level, it seemed to say something prevented the natural death experience of the Asari. This can be representative as an examination of the little death within an aspect of the archetype of the Ice Queen but that is another matter to be discussed later, maybe.

"On one level" There is an implication in this statement that there must be another level, another interpretation. Where is it?

Then "it seemed to say something prevented the natural death experience of the Asari" She mentions a light, like in the human myth of the light at the end of the tunnel you're supposed to see when you die, thing is, it is a myth because no one has come back from death to talk about it. Except Shepard in the ME setting, and Shep never talks about it. I just don't think there was ever a specific death experience to the asari that was different from the rest of species.

"This can be representative as an examination of the little death within an aspect of the archetype of the Ice Queen" Personally, as a linguist, I think the phrase would be better if you cut out "as an examination" because she just dies and we don't see much focus on Benezia herself, more on the Rachni Queen or on how Liara deals with the event of her mother being dead, no examination on my opinion. I also don't see a connection with her literal death to the metaphorical little death in the archetype, aside that they're the same word, using as mentioned the literal and metaphorical meaning. She tried to infiltrate the organization of someone she considered to be an enemy, Saren, to try to prevent his plans and due to Sovereign ended up being what she pretended to be. If anything her death has more to do with the death of a tragic hero than with the little death of the Ice Queen archetype.

"but that is another matter to be discussed later, maybe" And this is something that is annoying me greatly. Your phrasing may be a bit convoluted but it is understandable. You just post these statements, say they're connected and leave it at that. Please, write down your arguments, tell me what your definition of Ice Queen is, how it relates to the Noveria mission. Don't just tell me it is and expect me to buy it.

I can understand that you don't feel like it, or don't have the time but don't expect us to buy into your argument as if it was something obvious. And personally, I think it is an interesting point of view. I don't agree with it but so far I have seen you state it, not argue it so I cannot really offer counter arguments aside from over analyzing posts like here or be convinced of your point of view.

[Seraphim24]

Miranda was kind of cute, look all the Bioware characters tend to be a bit cute regardless of whatever clothes they are or aren't wearing.

 

The OP obviously was thinking of Cassandra's boobs or something and yet it's like how different is it when she's wearing clothes?

 

Look, people that like to have lots of sex or whatever, people's brains and emotions will process that, regardless of what they do or present at any particular moment.

 

There are lots of people, in other media, that seem like the types that have a lot of sex with a lot of different women or men as the case m ay be, do we have this in front of us photographically at that second? No. Heck maybe it's just something they've done, and now they are in front of you wearing clothes, but you can feel it anyway, that's just how people's brains work.

 

Does Merrill or even Miranda have a lot of sex with a lot of different men? No, at least, not compared to this other random person or even standard, consequently, no matter how many clothes she is or is not wearing, I regard them as a person as less "explicit" if that makes sense.

 

If someone deep down is a type that has lots of sex or just treats themselves with a lot of sexual carnage, my brain and other people will view and feel from them as such regardless of whether or not they are wearing clothes or what they are doing at that  moment, and vice versa if they don't.

 

I mean I've seen pictures of what may qualify as "pornography" in United States or something, but not view it as very explicit if at all. In fact, if you think about it images of a naked person do not really say anything about them sexually, a person could have pictures of themselves naked around the internet and it would qualify as "pornography" but that person could still be a virgin and have never had sex (because, it is just a naked person)

 

In fact, that person could probably qualify as a softcore porn adult film star and yet never also have literally never had sexual intercourse in their life, that's how backwards sexual explictness is treated.

 

Better to just look at a person, what are they like? Not the afterimages and effects.

 

Like I said, with Bioware no matter how explicit it is does not seem very sexually motivated, it is in the middle somewhere, like between something highly graphic and something more virginal, and it doesn't depend at all on what the characters are wearing or whatever at any moment really.

[Lady Artifice]

Is that you, Kefka? 

[Seraphim24]

Is that you, Kefka? 

 

Yes I changed my title, realized Kefka was funny once upon a time when I younger because it was a bad guy who didn't pretend to be good, but thinking about it, don't actually care about that character might as well change it to someone actually kind of more cool.

 

Did you care to comment on my thing? It's true right? What a person does and how they are internally seems to present us with an emotional impression, notwithstanding what they are doing, wearing, or presenting at any particular moment along that path.

[wyrdx]

I think you're overthinking it... I don't honestly believe that BioWare, at any point, had to act like a Fine Art student and attempt to justify their work with pretentious, tenuous explanations as to their "motivations behind the piece". I was a Fine Art student - it was never enough to say "well, you know, I kinda wanted to see what would happen if I just welded that lump of metal to that one, stood back and see what it looked like" (even if that was the truth) - you were expected to provide some sort of emotional or rationalised reasoning behind your work ... it was BS then and I think it would be BS now if BioWare did try to explain their game that way.
 

Putting your impression of art students and their cant aside...
Communicating the theme of a setting across development departments is essential to create a coherent experience. To the question what details the leads would reveal or justify is situational outside the essentials to achieve the vision.

Whose expectations were to be met? I did name drop a couple characters as Chekhov's guns to fire up the conversation if there was interest in this discussion. You were unfamiliar with them and seemed to have an entrenched opinion of their worth.

I will address Stirling and Matsuo in a subsequent post. Although this subject touches upon handling explicit content it will be necessary to start a thread if wanting to pursue much beyond this.

 
I think you're seeing something that isn't there - endowing something that's little more than comic book pulp fiction, made into a game, with some kind of overarching, cohesive, philosophical intent. There would have been an artistic vision of course, but I doubt it would have gone beyond "hey, this would look cool with snow!" ... and, you know what, I'm much happier with the honesty of that.

You may be underestimating the minds that created Mass Effect. Mass Effect is a pastiche of science fiction. A genre known to convey complex philosophies even in pulp comic form.

[AlanC9]

The continuation of this thread is important to all who value the content and direction of this thread not only one person.

You seem to have had a reading comprehension fail there. I was questioning your expressed reluctance to engage in a legitimate topic for fear of other posters driving the thread in a negative direction. Bad conduct is bad and people who do it should feel bad, but it shouldn't restrain us.

[AlanC9]

You may be underestimating the minds that created Mass Effect. Mass Effect is a pastiche of science fiction. A genre known to convey complex philosophies even in pulp comic form.

Or you're overestimating them. How could such a question be settled? What would count as convincing evidence against either position?

[ZipZap2000]

What you're asking for isn't as simple as turning off blood on Mortal Kombat and I'm saying that knowing we may yet receive a semi open world environment which would make even more difficult to pull off.

ME has blood splattered walls, exploding corpses and at one point a river of blood, fed by a waterfall, of blood. I won't assume to know what they'd have to do to add a function that would effectively remove all that, but my guess it would take a lot of effort. I think with ME3's ending the last thing they need to be doing is wasting resources on what you yourself admit is a minority demographic.

[Chealec]

I did name drop a couple characters as Chekhov's guns to fire up the conversation if there was interest in this discussion. You were unfamiliar with them and seemed to have an entrenched opinion of their worth.
...

 
Chekov's guns: "One must never place a loaded rifle on the stage if it isn't going to go off. It's wrong to make promises you don't mean to keep."
 
How can that be applied to anything in an RPG outside key elements in the core story? Even with the recurring joke that is Conrad Verner, the player always has the option to ignore him. If Verner is the loaded gun, it's quite possible to leave him on the rack.
 
About the only thing that Chekov's gun could be applied to on the whole of Noveria is the Rachni Queen (to a lesser extent, Gianna Parasini) - but even that falls flat a bit:
 
1: Free the Rachni Queen => meet evil Indoctrinated Rachni Queen
2: Kill the Rachni Queen => meet evil clone of the Rachni Queen
 
The loaded gun is there and it is later fired (in ME3) ... but player intervention is essentially rendered moot by the fact that to fulfil the later narrative the Rachni Queen returns no matter what. Although, interestingly, the Rachni Queen is one of the few instances where it shows BioWare may have actually thought through that entire sub-plot... whatever you do in ME1, the return of the Rachni Queen is foreshadowed in ME2, until she makes a comeback in 3.
 
In short, a roleplaying game, with player input, can never be viewed in the same way as a theatrical production which the playwright has complete artistic control over. The game will be full of "guns that are never fired" (metaphorically speaking) because the player doesn't even pick them up, let alone pull the trigger.
 
Theatrical narrative and player agency will always be at odds in RPGs.

 

You may be underestimating the minds that created Mass Effect. Mass Effect is a pastiche of science fiction. A genre known to convey complex philosophies even in pulp comic form.

 

Even if William Shakespeare reincarnate worked on the Mass Effect trilogy, at most he would have control of the overall artistic vision; sub-plots, disposable bit-players, deadlines, budget and, most importantly, branching outcomes determined by what the player does, or doesn't, do, seriously impacts on the kind of complexity you believe is there.

 

Imagine the opening night of Romeo and Juliet - if the actor playing Romeo had taken one look at Juliet said "Why aye, thirteen years old lass? Hin ye'sen awae an divn' come back 'til yer fifteen!" and walked off stage.

 

[Il Divo]

Or you're overestimating them. How could such a question be settled? What would count as convincing evidence against either position?

 

I think this another perfect example of the dangers of trying to speak for another's frame of mind without knowing the thought process behind its creation. Always better to describe things in terms of their impact on us, since it removes authorial intent from the equation.  

[Lady Artifice]

Yes I changed my title, realized Kefka was funny once upon a time when I younger because it was a bad guy who didn't pretend to be good, but thinking about it, don't actually care about that character might as well change it to someone actually kind of more cool.

 

Did you care to comment on my thing? It's true right? What a person does and how they are internally seems to present us with an emotional impression, notwithstanding what they are doing, wearing, or presenting at any particular moment along that path.

 

I actually have no idea what point you're trying to make. I'm too confused by your wording. 

[AlanC9]

And what's a "Kefka," anyway?

[United Servo Academy Choir]

And what's a "Kefka," anyway?

 

A fairly memorable Final Fantasy antagonist.

[dreamgazer]

Quietly waiting for the opportunity to call something "Kefka-esque".

[Il Divo]

You just had to go there, Dream. 

[ModernAcademic]

And what's a "Kefka," anyway?

I never thought I'd live to see the day someone in the gaming community would not know who Kefka is.

Terra, Celes, Locke, Edgar, Relm and many others; ye shall not be forgotten.

[EliotNesss]

@ioannisdenton:"been late do nt really know the arument but yeah:
Miranda and Jack were great female characters. I loved both of them.
and yeah miranda's assets (oun intended) should be there."

 

Miranda was one of the more interesting characters in the trilogy for me. I struggled mightily over whether to go forward in ME3 with Miranda or Liara as my love interest. I finally settled on "Big Blue" after Lair of the Shadow Broker". I played the Trilogy on Xbox 360 (my canon playthrough). And while I don't regret my choices; I do plan to play the entire trilogy with all DLC over again on PC before I even start ME-A. And I will definitely go Miranda on my PC playthrough.

 

In fact: I think Bioware is missing a potentially great adventure/opportunity by not continuing a DLC based ME Series based on Clone Shepard and Miranda. With Miranda finding a badly disfigured and barely alive Clone Shepard in the ashes of the Citadel. Extracting him; and resurrecting/repairing him like she did with the original Shepard. While joining up with him to rebuild Cerberus and start a whole new set of mini episode together, with other remnants from his original crew. IMO, that would be a great dog biscuit to throw at some of us. And I'd sure like playing it.

 

Oh yeah: and give me that big bulging Arse as explicitly as you want. And let me slow dance with her while holding both cheeko's in my palms. We're all adults here. And kids shouldn't be playing a game like ME anyway.

[AlanC9]

I never thought I'd live to see the day someone in the gaming community would not know who Kefka is.
Terra, Celes, Locke, Edgar, Relm and many others; ye shall not be forgotten.

That doesn't actually answer the question, you know. But I guess USAC already handled that.

Yeah, never played any of the FF games. The closest I ever came to playing any JRPG was the Anachronox demo..

[United Servo Academy Choir]

That doesn't actually answer the question, you know. But I guess USAC already handled that.

Yeah, never played any of the FF games. The closest I ever came to playing any JRPG was the Anachronox demo..

 

I realize this is probably a very controversial statement, but... I think you tend to age out of them. I haven't been able to stomach one since high school.

[Il Divo]

Hmm, I'm not sure. Dark Souls is a JRPG and I'd probably throw myself off a cliff before ever giving that up. 

[United Servo Academy Choir]

Hmm, I'm not sure. Dark Souls is a JRPG and I'd probably throw myself off a cliff before ever giving that up. 

 

Is it? I wouldn't have thought, it always struck me as an action dungeon crawler. I'm mostly talking about Final Fantasy and the like. I just don't have the energy anymore.

 

I hear and see all this great stuff about Persona 4, for example, but I think I'd throw myself off a cliff before dealing with all those menus, forget about all the highschoolers.

[Il Divo]

^I can't speak for it myself, but I generally tend to see it referred to as one. Don't read too much into my insanity though. It was mainly intended as a means of injecting Dark Souls into the conversation. 

[wyrdx]

I'm all for trying to analyze things in a different way, like comparing a setting to a character archetype. I can roll with that. But so far I don't see a comparison, just that some words for the specific setting and the archetype match and that's it. (Noveria has ice. Ice Queen. Queen being a female in a position of power, Benezia.)
 
For example:
 
 
"On one level" There is an implication in this statement that there must be another level, another interpretation. Where is it?
 
Then "it seemed to say something prevented the natural death experience of the Asari" She mentions a light, like in the human myth of the light at the end of the tunnel you're supposed to see when you die, thing is, it is a myth because no one has come back from death to talk about it. Except Shepard in the ME setting, and Shep never talks about it. I just don't think there was ever a specific death experience to the asari that was different from the rest of species.
 
"This can be representative as an examination of the little death within an aspect of the archetype of the Ice Queen" Personally, as a linguist, I think the phrase would be better if you cut out "as an examination" because she just dies and we don't see much focus on Benezia herself, more on the Rachni Queen or on how Liara deals with the event of her mother being dead, no examination on my opinion. I also don't see a connection with her literal death to the metaphorical little death in the archetype, aside that they're the same word, using as mentioned the literal and metaphorical meaning. She tried to infiltrate the organization of someone she considered to be an enemy, Saren, to try to prevent his plans and due to Sovereign ended up being what she pretended to be. If anything her death has more to do with the death of a tragic hero than with the little death of the Ice Queen archetype.
 
"but that is another matter to be discussed later, maybe" And this is something that is annoying me greatly. Your phrasing may be a bit convoluted but it is understandable. You just post these statements, say they're connected and leave it at that. Please, write down your arguments, tell me what your definition of Ice Queen is, how it relates to the Noveria mission. Don't just tell me it is and expect me to buy it.
 
I can understand that you don't feel like it, or don't have the time but don't expect us to buy into your argument as if it was something obvious. And personally, I think it is an interesting point of view. I don't agree with it but so far I have seen you state it, not argue it so I cannot really offer counter arguments aside from over analyzing posts like here or be convinced of your point of view.

This subject can only be discussed as it pertains to the OP otherwise another thread, group discussion or PM will be necessary. This analysis is based on a discussion some friends and I had about game design. The validity of the interpretation is secondary to the objective of showing how these techniques can be used to sublimate explicit content. 

 

Chealec and yourself have encouraged me to elaborate upon what was meant by Ice Queen, Benezia's final words and also into picking up the pistols Stirling and Matsuo and explaining those two in relation to artistic messages and guiding the player through liminal stages related to sexual arousal. 

 

"but that is another matter to be discussed later, maybe

 

You're right that time and effort constraints are considerations. Also, the maturity level has been wanting. The subject is something to be discussed but it's not worth the hassle of dealing with the negative behaviors. 

[Heimdall]

That doesn't actually answer the question, you know. But I guess USAC already handled that.

Yeah, never played any of the FF games. The closest I ever came to playing any JRPG was the Anachronox demo..

In a nutshell, he was a sadistic clown that worked for an evil empire, betrayed the empire, became a god, destroyed the world, then the heroes reassembled to defeat him a year later.

[AlanC9]

Wait... he's defeated after he destroys the world?

Anyway, I'm glad to see that the thread's moving in a more productive direction.