3411 réponses à ce sujet

[timebean]

My two cents on the debate...

 

I will never understand, EVER, why some words are censored while others are not. Why is there some subset of the sounds we make that are considered "curses"?  Are we witches in the middle ages?  I have personally never cursed anyone, as far as I know. I do, however, say goddamnit on a regular basis because it is an alliterative, pleasing adjective in my person opinion. It rolls off of the tongue and indicates comical displeasure (at least, that is how I use it).  And when I get one of those looks for saying it, I invite the aghast person to offer a suitable replacement for the "offensive" word. It is beyond stupid to pick words we can say and words that we should not. I make sounds with my mouth to make my opinions known, to illustrate points, to make people laugh, or to defend myself.  And I don't believe in being ashamed for using any words available (or even 'made-up' ones) to do so. So I do not think the devs should have an option to turn of "cussing", or anything like that.  Because the story they are trying to tell deserves whatever words they want to use. 

 

In regards to gore, I am all for the ability to reduce gore in game if one prefers. After the season of gore-filled, rape-filled, torture-filled television that was Game of Thrones and Outlander, I can understand wanting a mental break from gore.

 

Nudity...well...I wish we were all nekkid all the time, so...can't really relate to that.    

[Steelcan]

Do not speak of Season 5 GoT, it doesn't exist

[KaiserShep]

OP was certainly right in the prediction that individuals would come out of the woodwork to attack and deride this idea, not to mention the OP him/herself.

You know, rather than contribute anything useful to the discussion.

In all honesty, I don't believe that this is actually a good idea. I'm just failing to see the point of having BioWare putting a censor toggle. But then, I think bleeps are kind of stupid. Anyone with the capacity to understand context knows exactly what the character is saying anyway, even when it's dubbed to say Mr. Falcon lol.

Example: H-E-double hockey sticks. Unless you're saying it as a joke, using it to avoid saying hell is pointless nonsense.

[Elhanan]

Man, taken out of context...
 
Anyway. TV shows. A lot of my favorites don't use cursing because the FCC is a thing that exists. A lot of my favorites use extreme amounts of cursing because they exist on premium channels or streaming networks where they can spend all day laughing and telling the FCC to sit and spin.
 
That being said, I tend to find the dialogue on the curse-heavier shows to be better done, more natural, more realistic. Some times the dialogue on shows that can't get away with swearing can be very clever, funny, tongue in cheek as they work their way around it - the Seinfeld episode The Contest, for example, where they spend the whole episode not saying masturbation. Still holds up pretty well, last I saw it, which was a couple years ago.
 
But that's comedy. And the comedy comes from the fact that they have to work around saying something that people in the real world could just say out loud with no real consequence.  It's very stilted, it's very artificial, and it's very television. I'm very aware I'm watching a show in those moments. 
 
In the shows where swearing is at least possible if not frequent, the dialogue comes off as more natural because people can just say things that people say in the real world. They don't have to have clever work-arounds. They just get right to it, and it has an earnestness to it that I appreciate.

What is out of context? Shepard is the Main Character in a RPG; discipline for Vega and having the option to do so seems like decent RP for the way I wish to play a Commander. If only I could stop Shepard from saluting all the time....

Skip most comedies on TV (eg; Seinfeld, Two and Half Men, Friends) often due to content (not just cussing), and recently stopped watching a series that moved to another cable network with less restrictive guidelines. I often use the option to pass on shows with such content, as having a filter is often not a choice.

As the OP requested the possible use of toggles and options, I support that if viable. If not, will continue to avoid parts of the games as mentioned, or skip the games entirely (eg; TW series).

[Former_Fiend]

A certain amount of cursing is natural and makes sense, depending on the context.  As is adding setting-specific curses, like "quad" and "bosh'tet" for Mass Effect.

 

But flinging them around "because Mature rating" diminishes the impact.  And just doing it for shock value is just numbing.

 

Curses, especially big ones like the F-bomb, should be used sparingly.  To emphasize the gravity of a situation.  It's using a hammer when you have an entire toolbox at your disposal.

 

If someone's using a swear word as a noun, verb, and adjective all in the same sentence, I'm going to start wondering how broad a vocabulary that character actually has. 

 

For the most part, I absolutely agree. I don't think the words should be thrown about too flippantly. 

 

Two of the primary uses of swearing, dyphemistic and emphatic, are all about using the swearword to make a point. And they are absolutely necessary in this role, despite what others would say, because of the purpose they serve. Swearing in this context is saying, "Look, I know this is a bad word. I know it's taboo. I know it's not to be used in polite company. But the trigger of the emotion I'm feeling - whether it is rage, disgust, fear, or what have you - is so strong that I am willingly breaking that taboo to get the point across."

 

By the very definition, another, socially acceptable word can't be used in that context because the whole point is willfully violating what is socially acceptable for emphasis. And that only works so long as the words have a sense of taboo.

 

On the flip side, there's idiomatic swearing which is used to show a closeness, a comfort, and a lack of formality between people. You demonstrate people are good friends by having them calmly, casually swearing with each other.

 

That catagory is where most of my personal swearing comes from, and it lends itself to a bit more overuse. The trick is, when writing dialogue, it still needs to feel natural. Needs to be something someone would say. Can't be stilted, like the hypothetical you gave. 

 

Knew a kid back in the day who would swear like that. Every other word, trying to fit in with my group. Told him once, "Kid, don't cuss. You're not good at it."

[KaiserShep]

In practice, there are a lot of words that can be overused that make dialogue needlessly abrasive or incredibly awkward, making it feel artificial, like the writers are trying too hard. But this doesn't just apply to swearing. Esoteric language can have the same effect. If "big words" are used too often in casual conversation between ordinary characters in a personal, informal encounter, it starts to seem more like the writer is trying to impress us than entertain us. Having well-balanced, naturally sounding dialogue that fits the context of the situation matters more to me than whether or not someone is offended by the dreaded f-bomb.

[Former_Fiend]

As awesome as that would be.....

 

I think people are more willing to give "hot" and "cool" a pass because it isn't "offensive" like swearing is.

 

I think the actual reasoning is just what we're used to.

 

We all grew up with cartoons and movies and storiebooks that showed the middle ages, with knights and dragons and castles, and none of these cartoons or stories had swears in them because they were being made for kids, and even if they weren't, they were under the watchful eye of moral guardians and had a limit on their content.

 

Society's collective perception of this time period, and many time periods, is shaped by this, as well as our perception of modern Christianity. So we imagine this as being a time without curse words even though it very much had them.

 

That's why these things "feel" out of place to a lot of us. At least, that's my theory.

[Former_Fiend]

What is out of context? Shepard is the Main Character in a RPG; discipline for Vega and having the option to do so seems like decent RP for the way I wish to play a Commander. If only I could stop Shepard from saluting all the time....

 

 

I'm sure you don't need me to explain to you why statements about punishing Vega by "throwing him to the floor" and "disciplining" him might be amusing when taken out of context. 

 

Sorry about that. I've been up for like, twenty hours. I get less mature with less sleep.

[timebean]

I wish phrases like "drivel-headed nobbycock" and "jack-muled, doe-eyed, moon-faced" and even "rapscallion" were used in the DA universe.  Cause it would be hilarious.  

 

In ME, we could have futuristic curses like "eezo-eating" and "warped out".  Why not?

[Oni Changas]

Do not speak of Season 5 GoT, it doesn't exist

Tyene Sand exists. Oh, she damn exists. HNGH!

[Elhanan]

I'm sure you don't need me to explain to you why statements about punishing Vega by "throwing him to the floor" and "disciplining" him might be amusing when taken out of context. 
 
Sorry about that. I've been up for like, twenty hours. I get less mature with less sleep.

Ah; got it now, as I thought it meant I was taking it out of context. NP.

[shodiswe]

Seriously, the way american media tends to "beep" or whatever, explicit language and censor stuff is laughable. I just find it sad that any effort is being wasted on such features and I Bioware won't waste effort into such things.

It's Biowares choice, but Irather see them give us a memorable ending and endgame this time, instead of adding bleeps or "Flanders" versions of Everything.

<img src=http://media.giphy.c...giphy.gif</img>

[url=http://media.giphy.c...s3TRC/giphy.gif

[dreamgazer]

Tyene Sand exists. Oh, she damn exists. HNGH!

I'm on the anti-toggle side of this discussion, but that "bad pussy" does nothing but support the idea that profanity and nudity can end up looking completely unnecessary, and the material would be better without it. Sparingly and accordingly is key.

[Former_Fiend]

I'm on the anti-toggle side of this discussion, but that "bad *****" does nothing but support the idea that profanity and nudity can end up looking completely unnecessary, and the material would be better without it.

 

The Sandsnakes were just poorly written in general. Didn't matter if they were cursing or not - and they usually weren't. Their lines were just bad. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Sometimes, fools need a righteous assplosion.

 

 

In the words of Jeff Moreau: Take that, ya sons of b*tches! 

 

Sometimes against a foe who's been a real pain in the ass I find it particularly satisfying.

[Gothfather]

There should be NO toggle for content period.

 

 

Games are part art and as art it is not created subjective to YOUR approval, it is made by the artist(s) for their own approval. Your only input in the process is to buy it or not to buy it. A content toggle damages the integrity of the art, it is like asking to be able to cover up David's junk in Michelangelo's Statue David because a bit of marble junk offends you.

 

https://en.wikipedia...-David_JB01.JPG

 

 

If you are offended by a piece of art DON'T view it but don't ask the artists to modify the art to meet your subjective tastes. Your desire not to see content should not ever be used as an excuse to censor art. And yes asking for a toggle is asking to censor art, its just toggle-able censor.

 

Secondly Mass effect and Dragon age are BOTH mature titles, if you can not handle the mature content of the a mature title don't buy it. Do not ask the artist to make it more palatable for you. The fact that you think giving people choice is a valid reasons shows you lack the maturity to handle mature themes. Choice isn't the holy grail, more choice is not always better and choice to ruin the artistic integrity of art is ALWAYS a bad thing.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Gothfather, I wish I could give you more likes.

[Il Divo]

But, ultimately, the OP is wrong that you can just cut out graphic content - whether violence or swearing - and make the same game. The simplest example here is switching out the wording of the sign in Die Hard 3. But some things would be way harder. Does Jack get bleeped every five seconds? Is there white noise when she talks about being violently gang-raped? Does the ME3 codex cut mention of the slaughter ships? Does ME2 cut the scene of the human melted down to reaper slurpee?

 

Agreed. To use a Mass Effect example: Ashley Williams. I'm far from Ashley's biggest fan (I think she's pretty bland), but she did have one line in particular I loved while Shepard was dealing with the Council: "Why is it whenever someone says with all due respect, they really mean kiss my ass?". I thought it was clever, brief, and accurate. I can't say this would have been improved by using "butt" in its place.

 

I also don't doubt that stories are ruined by artificial attempts at being mature via bad language, etc. But then, I've also seen stories suffer due to contrived attempts at sterilization. I'm a huge Avatar: The Last Airbender fan, but I thought the series finale suffered a good amount because of the controversy over potentially killing the chief villain on a kid's show. 

[Nomen Mendax]

There should be NO toggle for content period.

 

 

Games are part art and as art it is not created subjective to YOUR approval, it is made by the artist(s) for their own approval. Your only input in the process is to buy it or not to buy it. A content toggle damages the integrity of the art, it is like asking to be able to cover up David's junk in Michelangelo's Statue David because a bit of marble junk offends you.

 

https://en.wikipedia...-David_JB01.JPG

 

 

If you are offended by a piece of art DON'T view it but don't ask the artists to modify the art to meet your subjective tastes. Your desire not to see content should not ever be used as an excuse to censor art. And yes asking for a toggle is asking to censor art, its just toggle-able censor.

 

Secondly Mass effect and Dragon age are BOTH mature titles, if you can not handle the mature content of the a mature title don't buy it. Do not ask the artist to make it more palatable for you. The fact that you think giving people choice is a valid reasons shows you lack the maturity to handle mature themes. Choice isn't the holy grail, more choice is not always better and choice to ruin the artistic integrity of art is ALWAYS a bad thing.

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. As it happens I don't think the OPs request is a good use of resources but it is fundamentally no different from one of many other requests for companions, or races, or mission structure, or endings that are better written. All these requests are attempts to interfere with the creators "artistic vision". If you don't agree with the OPs request say so, but I don't understand why people have to dress up their objections in nonsense about artistic integrity or the OP's lack of maturity.

 

Also comparing ME to Michelangelo's David isn't helping your case. Firstly the OP wants a toggle so that he/she doesn't have to view certain content rather than prevent everyone from seeing it. Secondly not all art is of equal merit - I'm not arguing that video games can't be art, just that the ME trilogy doesn't deserve the same respect as Michelangelo's David.

[Il Divo]

 

Also comparing ME to Michelangelo's David isn't helping your case. Firstly the OP wants a toggle so that he/she doesn't have to view certain content rather than prevent everyone from seeing it. Secondly not all art is of equal merit - I'm not arguing that video games can't be art, just that the ME trilogy doesn't deserve the same respect as Michelangelo's David.

 

Also important: people haggle over everything. Art or not, games are no different. The developer doesn't have to listen to what I want, but it might come at the expense of my money. 

[KaiserShep]

I wish phrases like "drivel-headed nobbycock" and "jack-muled, doe-eyed, moon-faced" and even "rapscallion" were used in the DA universe.  Cause it would be hilarious.  
 
In ME, we could have futuristic curses like "eezo-eating" and "warped out".  Why not?

Sort of like in DA2, when Gamlen says "blight take you" to the mabari. I approve XD

[DaemionMoadrin]

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. As it happens I don't think the OPs request is a good use of resources but it is fundamentally no different from one of many other requests for companions, or races, or mission structure, or endings that are better written. All these requests are attempts to interfere with the creators "artistic vision". If you don't agree with the OPs request say so, but I don't understand why people have to dress up their objections in nonsense about artistic integrity or the OP's lack of maturity.

 

The problem with a toggle is that certain elements of a game can not be toggled unless you basically create two different games. You can't write a character and then change part of their dialogue and expect it to be the same character in both versions. That just doesn't work.

To make it work the mature version of the dialogue would have to be changed, too. Imagine Zaeed without cursing. Completely different character.

 

I also don't get the problem with nudity. Are people so repressed that every bit of visual skin needs to be sexualized? Nudity does not equal sex. There's no reason to censor anything in the first place. Not even for non-mature content.

 

Excessive violence and gore on the other hand don't need to be shown constantly. Once or twice for shock effect, fine... but any more than that would ruin the game.

[Chealec]

There should be NO toggle for content period.

 

 

Games are part art and as art it is not created subjective to YOUR approval, it is made by the artist(s) for their own approval. Your only input in the process is to buy it or not to buy it. A content toggle damages the integrity of the art, it is like asking to be able to cover up David's junk in Michelangelo's Statue David because a bit of marble junk offends you.

 

https://en.wikipedia...-David_JB01.JPG

 

 

If you are offended by a piece of art DON'T view it but don't ask the artists to modify the art to meet your subjective tastes. Your desire not to see content should not ever be used as an excuse to censor art. And yes asking for a toggle is asking to censor art, its just toggle-able censor.

 

Secondly Mass effect and Dragon age are BOTH mature titles, if you can not handle the mature content of the a mature title don't buy it. Do not ask the artist to make it more palatable for you. The fact that you think giving people choice is a valid reasons shows you lack the maturity to handle mature themes. Choice isn't the holy grail, more choice is not always better and choice to ruin the artistic integrity of art is ALWAYS a bad thing.

 

Find an artist who's never compromised their integrity to pass some kind of social acceptability (or commercial) bar and, with a few notable exceptions, you'll find a pauper. Computer games are part-artform, granted, but they're are also commodities to be sold - well apart from the odd indy title that was made "just because" - and if it makes commercial sense to slap a "toggle explicit/extreme content" filter in the game then that's what'll happen... if it doesn't it won't.

 

Artistic integrity is all well and good but it rarely stands up to commercial pressure - especially when making something which is supposed to be profitable.

 

 

Personally I've got no problems with sex, nudity, violence, gore or swearing in games (or movies, books, songs...) but I am a pragmatist... which is why my fine art degree is pretty much useless in my day-to-day life.

[Nomen Mendax]

The problem with a toggle is that certain elements of a game can not be toggled unless you basically create two different games. You can't write a character and then change part of their dialogue and expect it to be the same character in both versions. That just doesn't work.

To make it work the mature version of the dialogue would have to be changed, too. Imagine Zaeed without cursing. Completely different character.

 

I also don't get the problem with nudity. Are people so repressed that every bit of visual skin needs to be sexualized? Nudity does not equal sex. There's no reason to censor anything in the first place. Not even for non-mature content.

 

Excessive violence and gore on the other hand don't need to be shown constantly. Once or twice for shock effect, fine... but any more than that would ruin the game.

I mostly agree with this. I also think the toggle that the OP wants would be expensive and difficult to implement, I just don't think he/she should be castigated for asking for it. As far as nudity goes (particularly ME / DA level of nudity), I don't have a problem with it - but I also don't have a problem with the OP having a problem with it.