3411 réponses à ce sujet

[Gothfather]

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. As it happens I don't think the OPs request is a good use of resources but it is fundamentally no different from one of many other requests for companions, or races, or mission structure, or endings that are better written. All these requests are attempts to interfere with the creators "artistic vision". If you don't agree with the OPs request say so, but I don't understand why people have to dress up their objections in nonsense about artistic integrity or the OP's lack of maturity.

 

Also comparing ME to Michelangelo's David isn't helping your case. Firstly the OP wants a toggle so that he/she doesn't have to view certain content rather than prevent everyone from seeing it. Secondly not all art is of equal merit - I'm not arguing that video games can't be art, just that the ME trilogy doesn't deserve the same respect as Michelangelo's David.

 

Really? So asking to eliminate profanity and nudity is on the same level as asking for a companion? I don't think so.

 

 

Regardless of what you think the merits of said art, censorship of art is wrong. If you don't think art has merit then don't partake do not ask for the integrity of said art to be changed. Asking for a toggle is asking to censor the art. The fact that the original poster can't see this is yet another sign of immaturity. Just because you want only to censor the art for yourself or those that are like minded doesn't actually make it non censorship.

 

Sorry to say but artistic integrity is very much at the heart of this discussion, you desire to try and make it not so doesn't actually change it. Games are part art and while you may not view ME as art or think it lacks merit, I think you will find the fact that ME1 was pushing the boundaries of nudity in games and making a commentary about nudity by its inclusion will land it squarely in the realm of art as commentary. I suspect that art history classes will begin to include games if they haven't already. So yes the integrity of art is very much at the heart of this issue. And I firmly believe that art doesn't exist to make our lives more palatable but rather to illuminate and comment on society, and we see themes within ME that do this very thing. So I am utterly against anything that allows people to ruin a piece of work's integrity just to make it palatable. 

 

If you find a piece of art unpalatable don't partake. Problem solved.

[Il Divo]

Really? So asking to eliminate profanity and nudity is on the same level as asking for a companion? I don't think so.

 

 

I'd say so, yeah. There's nothing to distinguish the two. 

[Elhanan]

There should be NO toggle for content period.
 
 
Games are part art and as art it is not created subjective to YOUR approval, it is made by the artist(s) for their own approval. Your only input in the process is to buy it or not to buy it. A content toggle damages the integrity of the art, it is like asking to be able to cover up David's junk in Michelangelo's Statue David because a bit of marble junk offends you.
 
https://en.wikipedia...-David_JB01.JPG
 
 
If you are offended by a piece of art DON'T view it but don't ask the artists to modify the art to meet your subjective tastes. Your desire not to see content should not ever be used as an excuse to censor art. And yes asking for a toggle is asking to censor art, its just toggle-able censor.
 
Secondly Mass effect and Dragon age are BOTH mature titles, if you can not handle the mature content of the a mature title don't buy it. Do not ask the artist to make it more palatable for you. The fact that you think giving people choice is a valid reasons shows you lack the maturity to handle mature themes. Choice isn't the holy grail, more choice is not always better and choice to ruin the artistic integrity of art is ALWAYS a bad thing.

Difference is that video games as art involves choices and options, including Toggles. I prefer to set Effects Quality to Low in DAI as it reduces the glare and shine of FX, helps make my game to appear more natural in appearance, and improves FPS. But it would be rather arrogant of me to demand such a choice in settings be mandatory for all because of my opinion. While this deals with Graphics, same argument can be used for Gore (Toggle included), dialogue (varied choices), etc.

If such a toggle or filter could be made for the artistic depiction of the DA series, I would support it.

[Chealec]

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. As it happens I don't think the OPs request is a good use of resources but it is fundamentally no different from one of many other requests for companions, or races, or mission structure, or endings that are better written. All these requests are attempts to interfere with the creators "artistic vision". If you don't agree with the OPs request say so, but I don't understand why people have to dress up their objections in nonsense about artistic integrity or the OP's lack of maturity.

 

Also comparing ME to Michelangelo's David isn't helping your case. Firstly the OP wants a toggle so that he/she doesn't have to view certain content rather than prevent everyone from seeing it. Secondly not all art is of equal merit - I'm not arguing that video games can't be art, just that the ME trilogy doesn't deserve the same respect as Michelangelo's David.

 

Michelangelo's David actually stands as an exception rather than the rule - the Catholic church pretty much chopped off, painted over or covered up just about every penis in classical art that it could lay it's proverbial hands on... arguably one of the things that sets David apart and makes it "hallowed" in the art world is the fact that it escaped this fate.

 

Yes David is a fantastically well executed figurative sculpture but was it made as a commission for a wealthy patron (i.e. the Church) and, as such, should not be any more or less sacred than any other piece of (well executed) commissioned work... arguably it's less true fine art (in the meaning of art for art's sake) than Super Meat Boy.

[BurnAfterReading]

*snip*

 

Can I ask why you want to filter out the mature content? I am curious because maybe there's an issue that is yours and yours alone that you should question before asking a company to give the option to filter it out. 

 

Personally if the filter didn't detract from the resources of the game, then I see no issue with it. I usually filter out the persistent gore because I just don't think, aesthetically speaking, it looks all that great on the characters. If it was designed a little better, then sure.

 

But you seem adverse to the sexual content and the language etc. 

 

Let's say for a minute that your suggested filter detracted resources from the game - do you really think this is a fair request?

[Iakus]

There should be NO toggle for content period.

 

 

Games are part art and as art it is not created subjective to YOUR approval, it is made by the artist(s) for their own approval. Your only input in the process is to buy it or not to buy it. A content toggle damages the integrity of the art, it is like asking to be able to cover up David's junk in Michelangelo's Statue David because a bit of marble junk offends you.

 

ANd if there's one thing Mass Effect needs more of, it's artistic integrity 

[wright1978]

No I don't them creating endless toggles, to filter away content each individual finds distasteful. I certainly don't them censoring or blandening dialogue.

[Former_Fiend]

I really hate using the slippery slope argument, but it does beg the question; where's the end, here? Are we eventually going to be arguing for E-rated versions of games to be released alongside the M-rated ones?

 

I know that's not what the OP is asking; that's a bit of a strawman. But there's always going to be someone who has a little less tolerance for content than the next person. That's the core of this; it's subjective. 

[FirstBlood XL]

Ughh.... just deleted a longer reply, but here's a summation:

 

There's a lot of irony to be found in all the responses telling the OP to 'just not play the game'.  There are threads whining away for more MP instead of SP, more gay romances, more transgendered characters, less-sexy battle armor, etc.  I don't remember nearly as many 'so don't play the game' comments in those threads. 

 

Of course, I didn't exactly commit those to memory, but my feeling on this is that the politically correct sect loves to pick and choose what it will treat gently.... then kicks everything else in the genitalia.

 

Anyway, I don't mind the OP's request... options are good.  Probably would mean those of us who like gore and nudity would get MORE of it, since the publisher wouldn't have to worry as much about offending those who don't want to see it.

[dreamgazer]

ANd if there's one thing Mass Effect needs more of, it's artistic integrity 

Definitely, yes, especially when it comes to designing content for an M-rated game that doesn't need to walk on eggshells around a conservative mindset. Else, it'd be rated T for Teen, or E for Everyone like PvZ: Garden Warfare.

[Iakus]

I really hate using the slippery slope argument, but it does beg the question; where's the end, here? Are we eventually going to be arguing for E-rated versions of games to be released alongside the M-rated ones?

 

I know that's not what the OP is asking; that's a bit of a strawman. But there's always going to be someone who has a little less tolerance for content than the next person. That's the core of this; it's subjective. 

It's a fair question.  But a good starting place might be:  Don't go gratuitous.  Don't have it just for shock value, titillation, or "Because we can".  Ask if it's really necessary for a scene, and if it is, use enough to get the point across and no more.

[FKA_Servo]

Difference is that video games as art involves choices and options, including Toggles. I prefer to set Effects Quality to Low in DAI as it reduces the glare and shine of FX, helps make my game to appear more natural in appearance, and improves FPS. But it would be rather arrogant of me to demand such a choice in settings be mandatory for all because of my opinion. While this deals with Graphics, same argument can be used for Gore (Toggle included), dialogue (varied choices), etc.

If such a toggle or filter could be made for the artistic depiction of the DA series, I would support it.

 

Video option sliders aren't toggles, though. They're not at all the same thing as a profanity filter. And they're definitely not comparable to branching dialog paths (which are, as you note, the only "toggle" required here). Wouldn't it be just as arrogant to demand the extra work that censoring or rewriting, rerecording, and reanimating the objectionable scenes would require?

 

I don't want Bioware games to devolve into some sort of absurd GoT style sex and blood spectacle, nor do I want to resort to the "artistic integrity!" thing necessarily (though they should make the game they want to make)... but the idea that we need "toggles" to bleep out the rare curse, cover up the errant nip, or eliminate any sort of non-straight presence from a given playthrough (the most common circumstances for which a "toggle" is requested around here) is clownish.

 

If the content is objectionable to you, then you should have a way around it anyway. Bioware seems to generally provide this with DAI, as you note.

[Iakus]

 

If the content is objectionable to you, then you should have a way around it anyway. Bioware seems to generally provide this with DAI, as you note.

Generally, it's true.  So far they haven't gone overboard with language (Jack being one notable exception).  

 

Gratuitous blood and gore is more of an issue, notably with often mentions exploding heads (and DA2 was especially ridiculous, being able to make enemies explode in a shower of gore with a freaking SHIELD BASH)  That's just stupid

 

What I'm a bit concerned about going further is nudity.  Yeah, I know, doesn't bother everyone.  I prefer fade-to-black myself.  But scenes like ME1's are brief and skippable  However, in DAI, Cassandra's love scene is not skippable.  The Inquisitor has an entire conversation with her topless.  Hoping that doesn't become the norm.

[Former_Fiend]

It's a fair question.  But a good starting place might be:  Don't go gratuitous.  Don't have it just for shock value, titillation, or "Because we can".  Ask if it's really necessary for a scene, and if it is, use enough to get the point across and no more.

 

Where that line is is always going to be subjective and is going to vary from work to work. I'm obviously going to be more comfortable with a larger amount of swearing and nudity than the OP ever will; where he'd call it gratuitous and where I'd call it gratuitous are two different things. 

 

I don't want anymore nudity or language or violence than is appropriate for the game's tone and story. I've said that several times. But at the same time I don't think Bioware should put in what amounts to a T-rated version of the game because some people are perhaps a tad oversensitive, and that is essentially what the OP is asking for; a toggle to remove the content that makes the game what it is; a rated M game. 

[Il Divo]

I really hate using the slippery slope argument, but it does beg the question; where's the end, here? Are we eventually going to be arguing for E-rated versions of games to be released alongside the M-rated ones?

 

I know that's not what the OP is asking; that's a bit of a strawman. But there's always going to be someone who has a little less tolerance for content than the next person. That's the core of this; it's subjective. 

 

Well, that can potentially be the end point. But again we could take any request for any feature in a Bioware game and take it to that extreme. How long before someone requesting 1 character in a Bioware game starts demanding to decide the entire party? 

 

My question is simply: what makes the language so much more of a problem than people requesting happy endings, bigger roles for certain characters, among a million other things which compromise artistic integrity. 

 

Personally, I love swearing in my video games, but I just don't think the artistic integrity argument has much weight here. 

[Elhanan]

I really hate using the slippery slope argument, but it does beg the question; where's the end, here? Are we eventually going to be arguing for E-rated versions of games to be released alongside the M-rated ones?
 
I know that's not what the OP is asking; that's a bit of a strawman. But there's always going to be someone who has a little less tolerance for content than the next person. That's the core of this; it's subjective.

I do not know a lot of the global distribution of such products, but do know that certain areas already have censored versions, multi-lingual versions, etc. Including one for those with this preference might be profitable enough to warrant the zots.

[Iakus]

 

I don't want anymore nudity or language or violence than is appropriate for the game's tone and story. I've said that several times. But at the same time I don't think Bioware should put in what amounts to a T-rated version of the game because some people are perhaps a tad oversensitive, and that is essentially what the OP is asking for; a toggle to remove the content that makes the game what it is; a rated M game. 

I don't think there's any danger of that.  Quite the opposite, in fact.

 

When Fahrenheit was re-released, it was in its "uncensored" form, with an M rating when it was originally AO.  

[Former_Fiend]

Well, that can potentially be the end point. But again we could take any request for any feature in a Bioware game and take it to that extreme. How long before someone requesting 1 character in a Bioware game starts demanding to decide the entire party? 

 

My question is simply: what makes the language so much more of a problem than people requesting happy endings, bigger roles for certain characters, among a million other things which compromise artistic integrity. 

 

Personally, I love swearing in my video games, but I just don't think the artistic integrity argument has much weight here. 

 

To me the language is a very distinct aspect because it's something that's woven into the fabric of the story. An individual character is one piece of a larger whole, but the dialogue is half of what sets the tone of the story, along with the visuals. It's part of the basic foundation upon which the game is built.

 

Now, I'm not going to pretend that I know the ins and outs of programming to know how much resources and time it would or wouldn't take to add a bleep or a replacement word over every curse in the game. But I do think that adding in a feature to turn the game into the equivalent of an R-rated movie being edited for basic cable is the kind of absurd thing only that a comedy game might do as a joke. I think the very inclusion of the feature is comedic and harms the tone of the game from the get-go.

 

 

Generally, it's true.  So far they haven't gone overboard with language (Jack being one notable exception).  

 

Gratuitous blood and gore is more of an issue, notably with often mentions exploding heads (and DA2 was especially ridiculous, being able to make enemies explode in a shower of gore with a freaking SHIELD BASH)  That's just stupid

 

What I'm a bit concerned about going further is nudity.  Yeah, I know, doesn't bother everyone.  I prefer fade-to-black myself.  But scenes like ME1's are brief and skippable  However, in DAI, Cassandra's love scene is not skippable.  The Inquisitor has an entire conversation with her topless.  Hoping that doesn't become the norm.

 

See, me, I'm on the other side of that. I thought Cassandra's romance scene was very well done. It felt very natural, conveyed a lot of emotion. I didn't find it to be the least bit gratuitous nor did I think it was there for titillation- at the very least, titillation wasn't in the top ten reasons that scene was shot that way. 

[Elhanan]

Video option sliders aren't toggles, though. They're not at all the same thing as a profanity filter. And they're definitely not comparable to branching dialog paths (which are, as you note, the only "toggle" required here). Wouldn't it be just as arrogant to demand the extra work that censoring or rewriting, rerecording, and reanimating the objectionable scenes would require?
 
I don't want Bioware games to devolve into some sort of absurd GoT style sex and blood spectacle, nor do I want to resort to the "artistic integrity!" thing necessarily (though they should make the game they want to make)... but the idea that we need "toggles" to bleep out the rare curse, cover up the errant nip, or eliminate any sort of non-straight presence from a given playthrough (the most common circumstances for which a "toggle" is requested around here) is clownish.
 
If the content is objectionable to you, then you should have a way around it anyway. Bioware seems to generally provide this with DAI, as you note.

I also note that this subject has become more precarious with each title. Currently, I am able to play Bioware games, but choose to skip other titles as it is not possible to avoid such content. And this was the case for ME2 for myself; reason I waited so long to acquire ME3 until one of the Devs tipped me to which characters were problematic.

And clownish also seems to be an apt descriptor for characters such as Sera, Cole, and the Iron Bull. However, IB is not worth the deeper investigation for me, and I simply do not understand Sera, sub-titles or not.

[Former_Fiend]

I don't think there's any danger of that.  Quite the opposite, in fact.

 

When Fahrenheit was re-released, it was in its "uncensored" form, with an M rating when it was originally AO.  

 

That's a different discussion all together, though. An AO game can't be released on any of the three major consoles and won't be carried in any major retailer so you're limiting your market purely to PC gamers using streaming services like Steam. 

 

We're talking about the possibility of whether or not a presumably M-rated game should have an option to toggle off the M-rated aspects of it, be it language, gore, or nudity, so people can enjoy a watered down version of the game. 

 

And I just don't see a reason to include that feature.

[FKA_Servo]

Generally, it's true.  So far they haven't gone overboard with language (Jack being one notable exception).  

 

Gratuitous blood and gore is more of an issue, notably with often mentions exploding heads (and DA2 was especially ridiculous, being able to make enemies explode in a shower of gore with a freaking SHIELD BASH)  That's just stupid

 

What I'm a bit concerned about going further is nudity.  Yeah, I know, doesn't bother everyone.  I prefer fade-to-black myself.  But scenes like ME1's are brief and skippable  However, in DAI, Cassandra's love scene is not skippable.  The Inquisitor has an entire conversation with her topless.  Hoping that doesn't become the norm.

 

I'm generally in agreement - though I'm not offended by it or unable to look at it, I just think it's stupid. I tend to think a lot of the gratuitous, over the top violence (including DAO's much loved kill moves) is stupid. I'd think excessive language or nudity is unnecessary as well.

 

Even taking that into consideration, I think that the violence though is a separate issue from the other two. The way that Bull, or Vega, or Jack speak is part of their identity and characterization. Ditto for the Cassandra scene. That's... just what happens when that happens. I don't mind fade to black either, or creative camera angles for that matter (I'm not playing these games for that sort of titillation), but that scene is hardly gratuitous. And there are ways to game and metagame around that content if it's really a problem for you. Beyond that, I don't think there's any danger of any of this stuff ever being really gratuitous in a Bioware game, barring a massive culture change. It's just not their style.

 

And maybe it makes me a jerk, but at the end of the day, the idea of an adult person playing these games but so unable to deal with a single curse word flitting by their ears that they need to tie their game in knots to avoid it is absurd to me.

[Former_Fiend]

Yeah, I can't speak for anyone else, but in my experience, clothing does not automatically jump back on the body as soon as sex is over. Pillow talk tends to happen in the nude, and unless it's particularly cold, without L-shaped blankets covering the woman's chest while leaving the man's chest bare. That doesn't happen.

 

Now, someone else may have a different experience than me in that regard. Maybe I'm the odd one out. But personally, I find the underwear sex scenes, and hell, the underwear post sex scenes to be far more immature than DAI's scenes. Hiding and covering up the body at all cost lest someone see it, that's a childish way of thinking of nudity, just as oogling pixels for titillation is. Those are two extremes. 

 

The mature option in my mind is to show it, where appropriate, and just let it be natural, no big deal.

[DarthSliver]

I don't agree with the OP because I would like the mature rating to mean something in bioware games. I want nudity in the game but where it would fit story wise not to just be there to be game porn. I want explicit language in there too but not so they can say the f word in every sentence. You see I want the stuff where makes sense not to have it because it can but because it would flesh out the story more and make it actually make sense type of thing.

[Il Divo]

To me the language is a very distinct aspect because it's something that's woven into the fabric of the story. An individual character is one piece of a larger whole, but the dialogue is half of what sets the tone of the story, along with the visuals. It's part of the basic foundation upon which the game is built.

 

Now, I'm not going to pretend that I know the ins and outs of programming to know how much resources and time it would or wouldn't take to add a bleep or a replacement word over every curse in the game. But I do think that adding in a feature to turn the game into the equivalent of an R-rated movie being edited for basic cable is the kind of absurd thing only that a comedy game might do as a joke. I think the very inclusion of the feature is comedic and harms the tone of the game from the get-go.

 

Characters are also woven into the fabric of the story. And not all stories utilize explicit content to the same extent (Ex: A huge part of ME2's swearing can be attributed to Jack). But it still involves dictating how this creator paints his world. Even go back to Mass Effect: fans often would get angry as Bioware would shift their characters to the side lines (ME1 cast in ME2) or bring characters they disliked to the forefront (ME3 Liara). 

 

Sure, if the creator has a vision involving massive amounts of swearing, sex, etc, this kind of request becomes even more difficult. But considering the resources that often go into creating companions with divergent content/cut-scenes/romance/whatever else, it's pretty hard to think that this also won't result in substantial resources or a potential compromise of the creator's artistic vision. 

 

I hate the idea of a language filter. I want no part of it. I just think it's odd that so many are jumping on the artistic integrity bandwagon as a defense. If we want to talk about giving Bioware an uncompromised artistic vision, that's possible, but the entire feedback forum would likely go with it. Our complaints here range from "Get rid of Andromeda and go back to MW" to "Give us a foul language filter" to "Devote all your resources to MP and ignore the SP". 

[Elhanan]

Yeah, I can't speak for anyone else, but in my experience, clothing does not automatically jump back on the body as soon as sex is over. Pillow talk tends to happen in the nude, and unless it's particularly cold, without L-shaped blankets covering the woman's chest while leaving the man's chest bare. That doesn't happen.
 
Now, someone else may have a different experience than me in that regard. Maybe I'm the odd one out. But personally, I find the underwear sex scenes, and hell, the underwear post sex scenes to be far more immature than DAI's scenes. Hiding and covering up the body at all cost lest someone see it, that's a childish way of thinking of nudity, just as oogling pixels for titillation is. Those are two extremes. 
 
The mature option in my mind is to show it, where appropriate, and just let it be natural, no big deal.

Prefer romance to sex, and a simple Fade to Black scene is fine with me.