3411 réponses à ce sujet

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

Not exactly, that only happens when a new feature is added late in development. Dev's usually tell the publishers what features their games are going to have before they start development so the publishers can give them the necessary resources they have in order to implement all those features.

You're thinking like there's a magical money-tree.  Budgets are budgets.  Allocating before or after, it still means allocation for development costs *must* happen at some point in the creative timeline, these costs are paid for by giving up *something* in development.  I can see however that you ignored what both Bryan Johnson said and what others have said regarding prioritizing where the money goes.  You have a child-like lack of understanding of finite resources and continue to mistakenly insist that adding such options cost nothing.  As things stand, the OP's request is both impractical as well as antithetical to the progression of content development in that Bioware has historically established as their creative pattern. 

[JGDD]

A gore toggle would be a great idea.  I usually had the gore turned off in DA:O and DA2.  I wanted the option in ME3, but it wasn't available.  It isn't that I can't handle the gore, but it's kind of gross and, well, in Dragon Age it looked more than a little weird when you were flirting with an LI while covered in the blood of your enemies.  So there's that.

Understand the sentiment, but some key parts of the ME trilogy used gore (or horror aspects) to drive home these visceral points. First mission with your boots on the ground had an example of this: the spikes. In some ways seeing that was more disturbing than watching stuff explode into red or silver indistinguishable goo after being shot by you.

 

Next game had piles of bodies in one segment. That probably wouldn't have worked so well if it had been a view focused only on your PC. It used that grim scene to once again drive home what you are dealing with. It isn't pleasant and wasn't meant to be.

 

Third game was probably the worst of the lot. All out war against indiscriminate killing machines with death everywhere.

 

How do you blot all of it out for the squeamish? Short answer: you don't. You make your product aimed at a certain segment of the market and let them decide whether it's what they like or not.

[Brass_Buckles]

While browsing ME mods (I'm currently replaying ME with the excellent improved textures mod) I noticed there is a mod to replace the textures for the Chora's den dancers and a few other incidences of exposed female flesh. Only 30 downloads though, compared to 67,969 for the improved textures.

 

Frankly it doesn't bother me, but it clearly bothers the OP.  (Well, it bothers me in the sense of "why no men?" but other than that...)  It doesn't appeal to me, and it makes me roll my eyes a bit, but it's part of that setting and part of what makes it seedy.  My point is kind of:  If you're wanting to censor the brief nudity of romantic cut scenes, why stop there?  Because you'd probably see worse at a scene like Chora's Den, and I don't see the point in censoring that (especially since at some point the resources required become overwhelming and too much other content has to be cut).  At that point we're either going to have to skip the content toggle and remove the content itself entirely (possiby just make the game T rated), or the OP will have to buy a different game instead, even though (s)he wants to play Mass Effect, with Mass Effect's lore and background.

 

I guess my post didn't make sense/I seemed to be saying I personally wanted nudity censors/dancer censors.  I don't.  (I do support a gore toggle, but I'm not even sure if I'd actually use it to turn off the gore, myself, even though I don't really like gore.)

[Il Divo]

Most of my thoughts on this have been summed up well by others too. I'm with the OPs idea of content toggles.
 
One thing I would like to add. These filters rather than limiting the creation of graphic content make allowance for more graphic content in the game. 

 

Not entirely. Sure, the optional nature in theory could allow for more graphic content because you could now argue we can avoid exposure if we like, but that also means more resources to code. You're not just coding the game for the explicit content toggle. Each instance of explicit content requires more resources to implement. A game with 1 swear word for example would cost much less than a game with 100 swear words using this feature. 

 

Note that this imposes contraints on the writers -- they have to make sure that nothing comes up in a scene with nudity or whatever that will be plot-critical later. (Unless they want to do alternate versions of the scene, in which case it's more work for the animators.) You can often see this in movies -- someone will cover up right before an exposition dump so they can do a broadcast TV edit.

 

Aka, Dr. Manhattan in Watchmen. There you have a character who spends the entire comic/movie naked. That requires either a lot of resources to code or the writers to redesign the character. 

 

Not exactly, that only happens when a new feature is added late in development. Dev's usually tell the publishers what features their games are going to have before they start development so the publishers can give them the necessary resources they have in order to implement all those features.

 

Someone else pointed this out but resources are resources. If you want feature A, you have to give up feature B in the process. 

[Brass_Buckles]

Not entirely. Sure, the optional nature in theory could allow for more graphic content because you could now argue we can avoid exposure if we like, but that also means more resources to code. You're not just coding the game for the explicit content toggle. Each instance of explicit content requires more resources to implement. A game with 1 swear word for example would cost much less than a game with 100 swear words using this feature. 

 

 

Aka, Dr. Manhattan in Watchmen. There you have a character who spends the entire comic/movie naked. That requires either a lot of resources to code or the writers to redesign the character. 

 

 

Someone else pointed this out but resources are resources. If you want feature A, you have to give up feature B in the process. 

 

Basically, with this toggle implemented, we could expect to avoid the overhead cost of having to add a whole lot of censoring, they'd keep everything relatively tame in the first place.

 

They also have to consider the actual size-in-GB of the game.  For one thing, it's going on consoles which usually have less space than PCs.  For another, it's not very fun downloading a game for X amount of hours because it's 40+ GB.  And when you have to have extra sound clips, and probably extra video clips or extra code to cut them off at just the right moment, it's going to bump up the size.  A 30 GB base game without this censor toggle could very well become 40+ GB because of the extra stuff that has to be added in to enable that censor toggle to work.

 

And then, on top of the work put into actually making the censor toggles work, someone's got to test it, repeatedly.  And try to break it.  And then there's still the chance that some offbeat dialogue or scene didn't get properly censored by the toggle and someone's going to get angry that their explicit content filter toggle didn't work there.

[Il Divo]

 

I don't think it's somehow "weak" to think that foul language, nudity, gore, etc. are going to morally corrupt you.  It's a valid concern and let no one tell you otherwise.  However, the effort to make toggles to hide all of this would likely take resources away from some other part of the game.

 

 

The concern I have here is that, if we consider that line of thinking valid (and maybe it is), there's just as many, if not more, worrying concerns in a game that does manage to avoid these things.

 

Even if we're being thorough about removing the above, we're still left with a game that arguably gives the player the ability to commit genocide/murder on multiple occasions. I think the implication of those, on a moral level, are far worse than any swear word ever could. Arguably, much of that is optional as well, but it also means you're restricted entirely to one alignment which kinda goes against what many perceive as the point of a Bioware game. That's up to each player, but I can't imagine it's as fun being restricted to a single alignment/set of dialogue options. 

[Il Divo]

Basically, with this toggle implemented, we could expect to avoid the overhead cost of having to add a whole lot of censoring, they'd keep everything relatively tame in the first place.

 

They also have to consider the actual size-in-GB of the game.  For one thing, it's going on consoles which usually have less space than PCs.  For another, it's not very fun downloading a game for X amount of hours because it's 40+ GB.  And when you have to have extra sound clips, and probably extra video clips or extra code to cut them off at just the right moment, it's going to bump up the size.  A 30 GB base game without this censor toggle could very well become 40+ GB because of the extra stuff that has to be added in to enable that censor toggle to work.

 

And then, on top of the work put into actually making the censor toggles work, someone's got to test it, repeatedly.  And try to break it.  And then there's still the chance that some offbeat dialogue or scene didn't get properly censored by the toggle and someone's going to get angry that their explicit content filter toggle didn't work there.

 

Agreed. And even looking at what Bryan Johnson was saying earlier, that fits in pretty well with this. A simple toggle sounds like the simplest thing in the world to implement, but the implications have greater weight. I have a bit more understanding now why Bioware is hesitant on the whole "giving the explicit line" for those who want it when it comes to VA. 

[Brass_Buckles]

The problem I take here is that, if we consider that line of thinking valid, there's just as many, if not more, worrying concerns in a game that does avoid these things.

 

Even if we're being thorough about removing the above, we're still left with a game that arguably gives the player the ability to commit genocide/murder on multiple occasions. I think the implication of those, on a moral level, are far worse than any swear word ever could. Arguably, much of that is optional as well, but it also means you're restricted entirely to one alignment which kinda goes against what many perceive as the point of a Bioware game. 

 

Sex, swear words, and gore.  Those are what the OP wants to be able to toggle off.  And you are right, there are worse things--hard, highly addictive drugs (red sand has ugly effects).  Genocide.  Cold-blooded murder.  Vengeance killing.  Corpses in various conditions, sometimes piles of them.  And if you're not okay with sex scenes, exotic dancers are probably not something you want in the game, but they have been in every Mass Effect game to date.  Prostitutes were in at least two of the games and you could sleep with the asari consort in ME1 (not something I'd want to do, but whatever floats your boat).

 

And the more these things would need to be filtered, the more they'd just be cut out altogether to avoid that overhead cost of censoring in the first place.  It wouldn't be some magical free license to make things even more hardcore.  Even if the censored parts were made more explicit, there'd be far fewer of them--thus they would feel more like they were there for shock value, and that'd make the game feel less, not more, mature.

 

I did point out that BioWare tends to make their mature rated games relatively tame, by comparison to some others.  And that is true.  But others push the limits to what's allowed because they want to shock you and force a reaction.  To me, having sex on a unicorn isn't mature.  It's about shock value.  Shock value rarely has anything to do with maturity.  Because BioWare is tamer than that, most of their audience isn't as shocked and thus we're better able to think through what we just saw/did/experienced in their games.  And I personally like that.

 

And again, I understand and respect the OP's opinion, but I think the rest of us would miss out on content if his/her request were to be granted.  Even if you dedicate resources to it from the beginning (and this is definitely not the beginning; they've been working on this game since ME3 was finished, if not before then), it's still taking away from something else.

[Drone223]

You're thinking like there's a magical money-tree.  Budgets are budgets.  Allocating before or after, it still means allocation for development costs *must* happen at some point in the creative timeline, these costs are paid for by giving up *something* in development.  I can see however that you ignored what both Bryan Johnson said and what others have said regarding prioritizing where the money goes.  You have a child-like lack of understanding of finite resources and continue to mistakenly insist that adding such options cost nothing.  As things stand, the OP's request is both impractical as well as antithetical to the progression of content development in that Bioware has historically established as their creative pattern. 

You misunderstand me, I know that dev's have a budget and have to work with whats given to them and things change during development. I'm just pointing out that the games budget is estimate from the get go.

 

The links probably do a better job at what I'm trying to say.

 

http://askagamedev.t...money-away-from

 

http://askagamedev.t...ayer-takes-away

[Brass_Buckles]

You misunderstand me, I know that dev's have a budget and have to work with whats given to them and things change during development. I'm just pointing out that the games budget is estimate from the get go.

 

The links probably do a better job at what I'm trying to say.

 

http://askagamedev.t...money-away-from

 

http://askagamedev.t...ayer-takes-away

 

A budget is decided from the beginning, but ME:A is hardly at the beginning of its development cycle.

 

Also, during development, cuts are made in order to meet deadlines (as well as budget).  In order to have a functional censor toggle, other things WILL have to be cut, as time and resources will have to be spent to make sure that this censor toggle gets into the game and works properly.  The censor toggle being non-negotiable, some other feature--gameplay, extra dialogue, one more animated video clip--will be cut.  Probably more than one thing will be cut.

 

Just having the budget be predetermined is not a way to avoid these cuts.  They will happen anyway, to things that are not mandatory game features.

[Drone223]

@OP Dev's have a budget and they have to consider if they can afford to spend the time and resources to have x feature in the game. If such a feature is too costly and take too long to add then its not going to be implemented at all. A filter for instance will just be too costly in terms of resources and would just take too long to implement especially since there are other features that could be added with less time and resources.

[Drone223]

A budget is decided from the beginning, but ME:A is hardly at the beginning of its development cycle.

 

Also, during development, cuts are made in order to meet deadlines (as well as budget).  In order to have a functional censor toggle, other things WILL have to be cut, as time and resources will have to be spent to make sure that this censor toggle gets into the game and works properly.  The censor toggle being non-negotiable, some other feature--gameplay, extra dialogue, one more animated video clip--will be cut.  Probably more than one thing will be cut.

 

Just having the budget be predetermined is not a way to avoid these cuts.  They will happen anyway, to things that are not mandatory game features.

I never said cuts are unavoidable either since it happens all the time in development games in (pre)alpha stage have a disclaimer that the product is subject to change for a good reason (never assume that (pre)alpha footage is what the final version will be like). Just saying dev's usually have a rough idea on whats going to be in a game when their given a budget.

[Brass_Buckles]

I never said cuts are unavoidable either since it happens all the time in development games in (pre)alpha stage have a disclaimer that the product is subject to change for a good reason (never assume that (pre)alpha footage is what the final version will be like). Just saying dev's usually have a rough idea on whats going to be in a game when their given a budget.

 

Yeah, but the point stands, if a toggle was an absolutely must-have, don't-cut feature, the game probably would be toned down overall to minimize this censor toggle's necessity, and, yes, since it involves coding and voice acting and animating and scripting and lighting and goodness knows what else, there'd be cuts in basically all of those departments.

 

Not a fun thought.

 

I mean in theory?  I like the idea, because it makes the game more accessible to everyone.  But in practice I think it would end up watering down the entire game.

[Drone223]

Yeah, but the point stands, if a toggle was an absolutely must-have, don't-cut feature, the game probably would be toned down overall to minimize this censor toggle's necessity, and, yes, since it involves coding and voice acting and animating and scripting and lighting and goodness knows what else, there'd be cuts in basically all of those departments.

Not a fun thought.

I mean in theory? I like the idea, because it makes the game more accessible to everyone. But in practice I think it would end up watering down the entire game.

Make no mistake I totally agree with you. A filter would be nothing more than a waste of time and resources to implement when a lot more could have been done with said time and resources, hope cleared things up a bit.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I don't understand the idea that violence, curse words or brief nudity in a game is going to 'corrupt your morals'

 

As stated earlier, I'm in my 50's. I don't drink, smoke, I don't cheat on my wife, and (real life) voilence abhors me. I don't swear, don't call others rude names and try to treat others fairly no matter who they are.

 

I've had the same essential morals my whole life, yet have played plenty of games that contain gore, voilence, nudity and swearing. I've been playing these games for decades, all of my adult life (video games didn't exist when I was a child ). In addition I suspect due to movies and other medias, I've seen much worse than would ever be in a video game, never mind a Bioware game.

 

So, why haven't my morals been corrupted? And if this isn't the OP's and others concern, what is it then?

[Brass_Buckles]

I don't understand the idea that violence, curse words or brief nudity in a game is going to 'corrupt your morals'

 

As stated earlier, I'm in my 50's. I don't drink, smoke, I don't cheat on my wife, and (real life) voilence abhors me. I don't swear, don't call others rude names and try to treat others fairly no matter who they are.

 

I've had the same essential morals my whole life, yet have played plenty of games that contain gore, voilence, nudity and swearing. I've been playing these games for decades, all of my adult life (video games didn't exist when I was a child ). In addition I suspect due to movies and other medias, I've seen much worse than would ever be in a video game, never mind a Bioware game.

 

So, why haven't my morals been corrupted? And if this isn't the OP's and others concern, what is it then?

 

I agree with you, but some people I guess might think that it poisons their thoughts or something?  With negativity/thinking this is okay when really it isn't?  It is equally likely that a person who wants these censors has a family and children, and fears that those children might approach while they are playing the game, and see/hear things that the person playing the game doesn't want them to.  I could understand not wanting to explain sex to a ten year old, or not wanting your preteen to see the excessive gore or hear the foul language.  They could also be an adult with live-in parents/grandparents.

 

It's hard to say "why," but it's still a valid opinion to have and they aren't trying to force that opinion on everyone else.  Besides which, what's okay for me, isn't necessarily okay for someone else.  Maybe it would get them upset enough to have nightmares.  Maybe sex scenes inspire them to go on week-long porn binges.  Maybe they are just highly religious and wish to keep their minds and hearts as pure as possible in a less-than-pure world.  Does it matter?

[Paulomedi]

South Park's episode Good Times with Weapons shows how hypocritical all this prudeness is.

[Nomen Mendax]

I don't understand the idea that violence, curse words or brief nudity in a game is going to 'corrupt your morals'

 

As stated earlier, I'm in my 50's. I don't drink, smoke, I don't cheat on my wife, and (real life) voilence abhors me. I don't swear, don't call others rude names and try to treat others fairly no matter who they are.

 

I've had the same essential morals my whole life, yet have played plenty of games that contain gore, voilence, nudity and swearing. I've been playing these games for decades, all of my adult life (video games didn't exist when I was a child ). In addition I suspect due to movies and other medias, I've seen much worse than would ever be in a video game, never mind a Bioware game.

 

So, why haven't my morals been corrupted? And if this isn't the OP's and others concern, what is it then?

This isn't something that the OP suggested (in fact he/she simply said that the reasons were personal and left it at that). Some people simply find nudity, gore, and profanity offensive, perhaps because of their upbringing or culture.

[Elhanan]

I don't understand the idea that violence, curse words or brief nudity in a game is going to 'corrupt your morals'
 
As stated earlier, I'm in my 50's. I don't drink, smoke, I don't cheat on my wife, and (real life) voilence abhors me. I don't swear, don't call others rude names and try to treat others fairly no matter who they are.
 
I've had the same essential morals my whole life, yet have played plenty of games that contain gore, voilence, nudity and swearing. I've been playing these games for decades, all of my adult life (video games didn't exist when I was a child ). In addition I suspect due to movies and other medias, I've seen much worse than would ever be in a video game, never mind a Bioware game.
 
So, why haven't my morals been corrupted? And if this isn't the OP's and others concern, what is it then?

Corrupt? Probably not, but practiced behavior and frequent exposure can influence and affect individuals.

As many know, I am 58, also choose not to drink, smoke, and try not to swear. But my exposure to those environs that had harsher language did alter my speech simply be listening to the same repeated descriptors. Even in the relative isolation as I am currently, the language heard in TV, films, games, and other forms of entertainment and communication influence my own.

That said, as an adult consumer, it is my choice to purchase or pass on the various forms of products mentioned. And if I contend that they are excessive for my own use, I skip them. And I also like the choices to avoid those materials in the games I do play; a reason why I prefer Bioware games to other titles. And if another method can be offered as suggested by the OP, I support it, though I prefer it were not implemented at all.

[The Ghost]

Well I read the whole letter, just saying before I start on.

 

I have to agree to some point with the OP, and I don't mind such option as long as it OPTIONAL! I would hate to be forced out of my enjoyment in the game. Speaking strictly for language, nudity and sexual stuffs as a whole. Being on that point I would like to suggest something opposite... an option to hide the underwear and actually see the genitals of the characters if you pick that option, which should be also OPTIONAL! So people can disable it if they don't like it. I suggest bioware to push this further on and embrace fully the M Rate... for several reasons... because this way they will get a lot bigger fanbase and actually be the very first game in which genitals will be shown completely. I think we are matured enough to admit that such option should happen and the only one who can do it right in my personal opinion is Bioware... and no one else. Because they are the only capable company to mix in-depth story, with in-depth romance and detailed sexual nudity and interaction, regardless of gender or sexuality.

[Elhanan]

Well I read the whole letter, just saying before I start on.
 
I have to agree to some point with the OP, and I don't mind such option as long as it OPTIONAL! I would hate to be forced out of my enjoyment in the game. Speaking strictly for language, nudity and sexual stuffs as a whole. Being on that point I would like to suggest something opposite... an option to hide the underwear and actually see the genitals of the characters if you pick that option, which should be also OPTIONAL! So people can disable it if they don't like it. I suggest bioware to push this further on and embrace fully the M Rate... for several reasons... because this way they will get a lot bigger fanbase and actually be the very first game in which genitals will be shown completely. I think we are matured enough to admit that such option should happen and the only one who can do it right in my personal opinion is Bioware... and no one else. Because they are the only capable company to mix in-depth story, with in-depth romance and detailed sexual nudity and interaction, regardless of gender or sexuality.

Based on many posts including some of my own, I do not have this same belief in this communities maturity. And reading of what has been done with like products and mods, would prefer not to include more graphic content.

[Quarian Master Race]

Next game had piles of bodies in one segment. That probably wouldn't have worked so well if it had been a view focused only on your PC. It used that grim scene to once again drive home what you are dealing with. It isn't pleasant and wasn't meant to be.

You forgot the screaming people being liquefied into a bloody paste and used to fuel an eldritch abomination.

Attempting to rewrite that for a filter would have been hilarious. Do they just have one long bleep for the screams and focus on Shep's horrified face as Chambers and Daniels are turned into Arnold Jr. slushie? These games simply don't work without lots of gory violence. The subject matter is literally galactic scale genocide....WTF are people expecting?

[The Ghost]

Based on many posts including some of my own, I do not have this same belief in this communities maturity. And reading of what has been done with like products and mods, would prefer not to include more graphic content.

 

Heh if people were the same, the world would be boring, don't you think so? You like your content without the sexual and gore stuffs, I like my content with open sexual content to the fullest and with some gore stuffs as long as it not too much, (excluding genocide which was the main story in ME3). Others would for example, like a lot more gore, but with less sexual content. If you want your demand be done, you should be capable of taking the absolute opposite of your suggestion... and I wrote on both OPTIONAL, which means you can turn it off whenever you want to, or turn it on for that matter. So I don't see what exactly we are losing here... my suggestion literally gives what you desire in the game, but also gives what I desire in the game... and I think it's quite fair... don't you think so?

[Elhanan]

Heh if people were the same, the world would be boring, don't you think so? You like your content without the sexual and gore stuffs, I like my content with open sexual content to the fullest and with some gore stuffs as long as it not too much, (excluding genocide which was the main story in ME3). Others would for example, like a lot more gore, but with less sexual content. If you want your demand be done, you should be capable of taking the absolute opposite of your suggestion... and I wrote on both OPTIONAL, which means you can turn it off whenever you want to, or turn it on for that matter. So I don't see what exactly we are losing here... my suggestion literally gives what you desire in the game, but also gives what I desire in the game... and I think it's quite fair... don't you think so?

As I have posted elsewhere, my preference is self-restraint by the developers to not include excessive or explicit content. If included, then options are helpful.

[The Ghost]

As I have posted elsewhere, my preference is self-restraint by the developers to not include excessive or explicit content. If included, then options are helpful.

 

Same here, my preference is self-restraint... but I do know that there is out there other people who will enjoy what I suggested.