3411 réponses à ce sujet

[N7M]

The original argument was that several movies - Reservoir Dogs among them - don't work without the harsh language.

 

You can write those scenes without the language, but they don't feel authentic. It feels artificially constructed for no other purpose than to keep out profanity.

 

How this applies to Mass Effect relates to specific characters; Jack, Aria, Zaeed, specifically. They don't work nearly as well without the cursing. They could be made serviceable, but the use of profanity for those characters does a far better job of conveying their personalities than would be done without profanity.  

Ok.

Leaving aside the analogy, the option for the developers to create authentic dialogue for these types of characters should be allowed. However, player agency as the PC in response to these conditions and user content control is important too. The concern that the developers might find it easier and cheaper to simply remove or replace the content in some way, other than agency or toggle filters, impacting negatively immersion or character variety is valid. 

[Former_Fiend]

I've brought up the idea of player agency here before. Bioware games work under a fairly strict word budget and I'm not sure that including an option to tell every person who cusses "I don't appreciate that language" is a wise use of resources, and that's ignoring how it can impact a scene and the flow. I don't see having a scene come to a screeching halt so that the PC can lecture someone on their language can come off as anything but comedic. 

 

Likewise having toggle features for this sort of thing; as Bioware employees have stated in this thread, that is a drain on resources. It's also not unreasonable to think that the devs might prefer the players get offended by a scene - the point may be to offend, after all - than get a watered down version.

 

I've also pointed out, several times, that the inclusion of explicit content has had no perceivable negative affect on Bioware's sales. So from a resource management, cost-rewards analysis of the situation, there's not a lot of evidence saying that including this kind of feature is in Bioware's interest. 

[Elhanan]

By allowing options for indv Players customize the content will widen the base of consumers; not narrow it. If the cost is deemed worth implementing, this could result in higher profits.

[FKA_Servo]

In today's climate, I think it's far more likely that most people who even notice them doing this would regard it with an eye roll or outright scorn. Barring a comeback for fade to black scenes, there's no way the return would ever justify the cost of animating multiple cutscenes, or rewriting bits of dialogue to remove profanity. And censor bars and bleeps would be disastrous because they look and sound absurd. The very idea of a toggle for thematic content is absurd.

 

The solution, if there even needs to be one, is to allow skippable cutscenes - beyond that, just metagame the offending content away.

[Il Divo]

In today's climate, I think it's far more likely that most people who even notice them doing this would regard it with an eye roll or outright scorn. Barring a comeback for fade to black scenes, there's no way the return would ever justify the cost of animating multiple cutscenes, or rewriting bits of dialogue to remove profanity. And censor bars and bleeps would be disastrous because they look and sound absurd. Toggles for thematic content are absurd.

 

The solution, if there even needs to be one, is to allow skippable cutscenes - beyond that, just metagame the offending content away.

 

Not to mention, it's not as simple as expanding the game base. To add X,  you often need to remove Y.

 

A Bioware dev a couple pages ago didn't describe this as a cheap feature. What's the opportunity cost is the real question. 

[Elhanan]

In today's climate, I think it's far more likely that most people who even notice them doing this would regard it with an eye roll or outright scorn. Barring a comeback for fade to black scenes, there's no way the return would ever justify the cost of animating multiple cutscenes, or rewriting bits of dialogue to remove profanity. And censor bars and bleeps would be disastrous because they look and sound absurd. The very idea of a toggle for thematic content is absurd.
 
The solution, if there even needs to be one, is to allow skippable cutscenes - beyond that, just metagame the offending content away.

As the ones using the toggled silence, this would be the option of the indv Player; may not be horrendous to them at all.

As for cut-scenes, having all in escape mode would help.

[FKA_Servo]

As the ones using the toggled silence, this would be the option of the indv Player; may not be horrendous to them at all.

As for cut-scenes, having all in escape mode would help.

 

In that case, you'll have to clarify what you mean by toggle silence. You mean toggling the voice overs on and off? OK, but then the offending words are still shamelessly present in the now vital subtitles, waiting to destroy childhoods and rob the unsuspecting viewers of their virtue and innocence.

 

Otherwise, either a dev or a poster familiar with what it would entail noted that actually bleeping out or silencing the offending words specifically would be a reasonably in-depth undertaking. Beyond that, I'm still unclear with why someone could be that unwilling to suffer the cussing and yet be entirely OK with the context of the story situations that precipitate the cussing in the first place.

 

Either way, I am 100% certain that not enough people would appreciate it to make it a worthwhile endeavor.

[N7M]

In today's climate, I think it's far more likely that most people who even notice them doing this would regard it with an eye roll or outright scorn. Barring a comeback for fade to black scenes, there's no way the return would ever justify the cost of animating multiple cutscenes, or rewriting bits of dialogue to remove profanity. And censor bars and bleeps would be disastrous because they look and sound absurd. The very idea of a toggle for thematic content is absurd.

 

The solution, if there even needs to be one, is to allow skippable cutscenes - beyond that, just metagame the offending content away.

That solution does currently work well enough for most of the player base, if thread consensus on this issue can be taken as an indication. Yet, this discussion has shown that the issue of content control is on some of that bases mind. Reasons for this are varied. It's unlikely it's going to go away.

 

-------

 

On a related note, the ratings system is flawed, the self reporting by game companies is open to abuse and the standards not as clearly defined as they could be. There are games that received an M in North America that have content accessible in the main game that could have garnered the game an AO rating.  

It's probable, a given perhaps, in the future there could be lobbying for more robust ratings and user controls as awareness of this issue increases, even government regulation. Particularly, as VR technologies become more ubiquitous. 

[Grieving Natashina]

In that case, you'll have to clarify what you mean by toggle silence. You mean toggling the voice overs on and off? OK, but then the offending words are still shamelessly present in the now vital subtitles, waiting to destroy childhoods and rob the unsuspecting viewers of their virtue and innocence.

 

 

_{Honorary like for your post.}  

 

The next step in this train of logic would be adding in asterisks for the subtitles that can be toggled on and off.  I find it interesting that the discussion has focused so heavily on the sound of the language.  I know a few deaf posters here on the forums that are fans of ME and DA, so that would mean that yet another toggle would be needed to censor the language.  It's starting to sound a little ridiculous, particularly since most characters don't particularly curse a lot above a T/PG-13/TV 14 rating.  

 

This is why I keep saying that if they wanted to tone down the content, they should just aim for a lower rating and be done with it.  I don't claim to know a ton about game development, but even I can see the dollar signs adding up if they keep adding all these toggles.  Either go T or keep the M rating and leave the content as mild or as adult as the ME teams wishes to get.  This compromise sounds like a well-meant but poor idea that would very likely take a lot of extra money and time.  

 

I think they are going to keep with the rest of the games they've put out over the last 8 years from the Canadian BioWare teams (ToR was BW-Austin) and make it M.  

[AlanC9]

I suppose it wouldn't be too hard, conceptually, to replace all the bad language in the subtitles with &%&#$%& or some such. They've already got the code for the swear filter kicking around.

[FKA_Servo]

I suppose it wouldn't be too hard, conceptually, to replace all the bad language in the subtitles with &%&#$%& or some such. They've already got the code for the swear filter kicking around.

 

Presumably it would have to actually filter the swearing - something the filter on this forum only manages to do sporadically.

 

I got a point the other day for bypassing the filter when I self-censored a word that isn't even caught by the filter.

[Han Shot First]

If they ever include a profanity filter I hope it is as silly and ridiculous as the one from the Craig Ferguson show...

 

[Former_Fiend]

_{Honorary like for your post.}  

 

The next step in this train of logic would be adding in asterisks for the subtitles that can be toggled on and off.  I find it interesting that the discussion has focused so heavily on the sound of the language.  I know a few deaf posters here on the forums that are fans of ME and DA, so that would mean that yet another toggle would be needed to censor the language.  It's starting to sound a little ridiculous, particularly since most characters don't particularly curse a lot above a T/PG-13/TV 14 rating.  

 

This is why I keep saying that if they wanted to tone down the content, they should just aim for a lower rating and be done with it.  I don't claim to know a ton about game development, but even I can see the dollar signs adding up if they keep adding all these toggles.  Either go T or keep the M rating and leave the content as mild or as adult as the ME teams wishes to get.  This compromise sounds like a well-meant but poor idea that would very likely take a lot of extra money and time.  

 

I think they are going to keep with the rest of the games they've put out over the last 8 years from the Canadian BioWare teams (ToR was BW-Austin) and make it M.  

 

You know, funny thing is, for all my arguing over in the thread about the rating, I don't know that Bioware actually thinks too hard about the rating when they're making the game.

 

I don't know Bioware's specific approach to it, but I recall a few years back Todd Howard of Bethesda explaining that at Bethesda, they didn't give the rating a thought. They made the game they wanted to make and it would get whatever rating the ESRB decided to give it. Of course, he wasn't so naive as to think it would get less than an M rating given the content they included, but it wasn't a situation where they were aiming for an M. 

 

Like I said, I don't know if it's the same at Bioware, but from various comments from individuals such as David Gaider, I'd imagine it's similar.

 

In part, that's the freedom that comes with making an M-rated game. If the intent was a T-rating or below, they'd need to be far more conscious about the content they included. 

[N7M]

At least one person at BioWare thought about it enough to have considered the economic and technical viability and felt motivated enough to post in this thread. It would be interesting to know if a study was done. 

 

 

[timebean]

If they ever include a profanity filter I hope it is as silly and ridiculous as the one from the Craig Ferguson show...

 

 

[begin rant]

 

This makes me wonder...is it only Americans who have such a stick up their...ummm..bums about cussing?  And if so, why?  Is it the backdrop of puritanism that shaped us from the 13 colonies onward?  Or is it some form of racism...ie, "we don't talk those filthy-mouthed scots and irish folks"...ie, some carryover from Gangs-of-New-York style racial dynamics? Or is that we are so privileged and so bored, that we have to find something...anything...to whine about?  I just don't get it. There have been a few cool history-lesson posts on this thread about individual cusswords...but nothing about WHY it such an issue in general.

 

I guess I will never understand.  Ever.  And I am an American (though technically, a hillbilly...and we have our own ways, I reckon).

 

I have said it before in this thread and I will say it again.  Asking for a language filter in a game that has us SHOOTING OTHER SENTIENT BEINGS and making decisions that result in things like GENOCIDE or the MASS DESTRUCTION of entire planets....it's like asking for a colorful band-aid for a leg leg that has been mangled in a meat grinder. It is MEANINGLESS.  I cannot understand how someone is perfectly OK with KILLING someone in a game...but killing them while swearing is an "issue".

 

I will never understand it. THEY ARE WORDS.  Blarf is a word I just made up.  Permuduckles.  Swemongus. Julatfongreemer. Akalaik. Tooberstunk. These are new cusswords I just made up.   And they mean REALLY bad things. Seriously...like...you don't even want to know what they mean. They are terribly offensive.  I am blushing having just typed them. 

 

So for f#$%s sake, bleep them out before they corrupt us all.

 

[rant over]

[Elhanan]

[begin rant]
 
This makes me wonder...is it only Americans who have such a stick up their...ummm..bums about cussing?  And if so, why?  Is it the backdrop of puritanism that shaped us from the 13 colonies onward?  Or is it some form of racism...ie, "we don't talk those filthy-mouthed scots and irish folks"...ie, some carryover from Gangs-of-New-York style racial dynamics? Or is that we are so privileged and so bored, that we have to find something...anything...to whine about?  I just don't get it. There have been a few cool history-lesson posts on this thread about individual cusswords...but nothing about WHY it such an issue in general.
 
I guess I will never understand.  Ever.  And I am an American (though technically, a hillbilly...and we have our own ways, I reckon).
 
I have said it before in this thread and I will say it again.  Asking for a language filter in a game that has us SHOOTING OTHER SENTIENT BEINGS and making decisions that result in things like GENOCIDE or the MASS DESTRUCTION of entire planets....it's like asking for a colorful band-aid for a leg leg that has been mangled in a meat grinder. It is MEANINGLESS.  I cannot understand how someone is perfectly OK with KILLING someone in a game...but killing them while swearing is an "issue".
 
I will never understand it. THEY ARE WORDS.  Blarf is a word I just made up.  Permuduckles.  Swemongus. Julatfongreemer. Akalaik. Tooberstunk. These are new cusswords I just made up.   And they mean REALLY bad things. Seriously...like...you don't even want to know what they mean. They are terribly offensive.  I am blushing having just typed them. 
 
So for f#$%s sake, bleep them out before they corrupt us all.
 
[rant over]

Yet the new words you wrote will likely not get you censored or disciplined on this forum, while the latter word with the upper case substitutions might.

Words matter, and the idea for each Player to tailor their game to suit themselves is a good one.

[Vargeisa]

If having an option to disable nudity and such means that Bioware can go all out for the people that choose not to disable it, I say go for it. 

 

That's all I really have to say about that. 

[Spectr61]

By allowing options for indv Players customize the content will widen the base of consumers; not narrow it. If the cost is deemed worth implementing, this could result in higher profits.

Wouldn't this drain limited resources from some other area?

Perhaps content?

At the end of the day, the game is rated M.

My hope is for awesome content, with resources not being siphoned off pandering to special interests.

[goishen]

IMO, this would completely change the game.  So, my vote would be no.  If that counts for anything.  Which it prolly doesn't.

[Elhanan]

Wouldn't this drain limited resources from some other area?

Perhaps content?

At the end of the day, the game is rated M.

My hope is for awesome content, with resources not being siphoned off pandering to special interests.

Would prefer the game be rated T, but having a way to silence the vulgarity via a Toggle does seem to be more cost effective than the substitutions mentioned earlier.

And I would give up the Bottles of Thedas for it....

[Elhanan]

IMO, this would completely change the game.  So, my vote would be no.  If that counts for anything.  Which it prolly doesn't.

Would only change the game if you chose to use the Option/ Toggle. Each indv Player could then play the type of content as they wished.

[Kabooooom]

Wow.... offended by a Taratino script... I'm done with this thread. I cant believe people are so soft. This era has too much-yeah, I'll just stop before I get banned.

Lol, if you were referring to my response, I'm not quite sure how you didn't realize how blatantly sarcastic I was being.

[Han Shot First]

I wonder how many of the people who request that the explicit content be toned down or removed, do so for religious reasons.

 

Maybe I'm off base in thinking this is tied to religion, but a lot of religious folks do have a tendency to try to impose their beliefs on others. 

[Elhanan]

I wonder how many of the people who request that the explicit content be toned down or removed, do so for religious reasons.
 
Maybe I'm off base in thinking this is tied to religion, but a lot of religious folks do have a tendency to try to impose their beliefs on others.

And the reverse never occurs....

I readily admit trying to adhere to my beliefs, but this thread is about offering an OPTION to ALL Players; not only my personal POV.

[DaemionMoadrin]

And the reverse never occurs....

I readily admit trying to adhere to my beliefs, but this thread is about offering an OPTION to ALL Players; not only my personal POV.

 

Did you notice that implementing the option would require a change to the original context unless you just bleep out words and censor the subtitles? There is also the word budget that needs to be considered. All that has been discussed several times already.

 

Option A: The writers come up with a toned down dialogue. Consequences: The original dialogue needs to be adapted so both versions contain the same message. By doing so you double the amount of words used, limiting the word budget for the entire game. Way too much work, every company going that route would just record the censored version and skip the adult one entirely. Not an option as far as I am concerned.

 

Option B: There is no toned down dialogue, instead words are bleeped out and replaced with !@#$%^&*. Consequences: While using a word filter on the subtitles shouldn't be too hard (some engines have it built in), it still represents a certain amount of work that has to be paid for and that requires time to implement and test. The bleeping would require someone to play an additional soundeffect on top of the dialogue, which is kind of difficult to do correctly. It would require that two tracks can be played simultanousely or that the sound can skip forward for the length of the bleep. I can see half a dozen tricky issues with that alone. Also, the writers might not be okay with this method because it changes how the dialogue is received by the player, it is possible that some context is going to be lost.

 

So in the end each option has a significant impact on the budget (time & money) and would only be used by a small number of people who most likely would play the game without that option, too. There is no incentive for BioWare to go to all that trouble, it's not like they'd suddendly get additional income as a result.

 

Elhanan, you repeated yourself in your last dozen posts. While I applaud you for not simply copy/pasting your message and actually using different words, you have asked for an option/toggle in each of them. Seriously, repeating yourself is not going to change anything, your voice only counts once. ^^

More importantly, the arguments against you have been listed (some even by a BioWare employee himself) in this thread already, so your crusade here is somewhat misplaced.

It reminds me a little of a child who got told that they won't get a toy and who's still demanding it, "But I wanna!". No offense.