3411 réponses à ce sujet

[N7M]

I think this thread as gone far enough in my opinion. The appropriate respond to this thread has happen awhile ago and now its just going in circles.

 

MEA will be rate M for Mature like all their other games and it will have everything that the M rating can offer in it.

 

Do you buy GTA5 then expect Rockstar to make a new GTA game where you can't steal cars or shoot random people walking down the streets. Maybe you ask them to make the cops more realistic and not get mad at us when we accidently bump into their cars or not shoot us at a 1- star wanted level.

 

This content you ask not to be there has been in all Bioware games since the PS3/360 era don't ask something to be removed that has been in there for a long while now. Its complaints like you make why we have underwear sex in most Bioware games. 

did you consider that maybe those that support a nudity slider/toggle do so to allow creative licence for the official romance scenes to be rendered without underwear for those that want it? This isn't to say that underwear sex can't be erotic; that's for each person to judge for themselves. 

 

Thanks for the distraction and opportunity to respond as I get caught up on the thread. Now, I'll head back a few pages and wade through the ad hominems, false equivalencies, personal assumptions, hypocrisy, hyperbole, and axe grinding to find the nuggets of wisdom in the anti-toggle posts and perhaps answer those.

[Elhanan]

reductio ad absurdum. Google definition search is getting to be useful....

[Former_Fiend]

Yeah, I've said all I have to say in this thread, and I've said it more than once. Recap of the reasons I think this thread's proposal is a bad idea;

 

Resource management; it's a drain on resources better spent elsewhere.

 

Artistic integrity; the developers shouldn't compromise their vision of the game to satisfy everyone's sensitivities. 

 

Dangerous precedent; Are we going to demand T-rated versions of every M-rated game from now on?

 

So, with that being summarized one last time, I'm going to take my leave of this thread as I've grown weary of the repetition.

[Elhanan]

Yeah, I've said all I have to say in this thread, and I've said it more than once. Recap of the reasons I think this thread's proposal is a bad idea;
 
Resource management; it's a drain on resources better spent elsewhere.
 
Artistic integrity; the developers shouldn't compromise their vision of the game to satisfy everyone's sensitivities. 
 
Dangerous precedent; Are we going to demand T-rated versions of every M-rated game from now on?
 
So, with that being summarized one last time, I'm going to take my leave of this thread as I've grown weary of the repetition.

* Depends on the drain; might be profitable instead.

* The artists are not asked to compromise a thing, as a Toggle would only hide/ silence content for a single Player choosing to do so.

* Slippery Slope could also apply to allowing envelope pushing from developers.

[DaemionMoadrin]

* Depends on the drain; might be profitable instead.

* The artists are not asked to compromise a thing, as a Toggle would only hide/ silence content for a single Player choosing to do so.

* Slippery Slope could also apply to allowing envelope pushing from developers.

 

There is no reason to believe it would be profitable. What kind of new demographic would the game attract? Enough to offset the costs? Doubtful.

 

You haven't been listening. They would have to make tons of compromises and those would be felt by everyone, even players choosing not to use the toggle.

 

No, it can not be applied to pushing the envelope, because that situation doesn't exist. Games don't become more violent, more sexual or more vulgar just because. They still need to be rated, they still need to appeal to their demographic, they still need to be advertised. If the devs go too far, they won't be able to sell their game anymore.

[Oni Changas]

There needs to be an EC version of Little Big Planet too. Also fighting games should have no dialog or fighting. It'd be a debate using sign launguage. Nobody loses though, you just come in 2nd place.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Not really.  Mainly it's sarcasm and reductio ad absurdum.

 

Uh... what now? The simple fact that it would be an additional, unplanned feature alone already hurts things. BioWare operates on a limited budget for money, time, words and other resources. Implementing this inane toggle would mean something else would have to be cut instead and the release date would be postponed.

 

And that's just one reason. I listed more in my previous posts, as did other people.

[Oni Changas]

Uh... what now? The simple fact that it would be an additional, unplanned feature alone already hurts things. BioWare operates on a limited budget for money, time, words and other resources. Implementing this inane toggle would mean something else would have to be cut instead and the release date would be postponed.

And that's just one reason. I listed more in my previous posts, as did other people.

In essence, he was agreeing with you bro.

[DaemionMoadrin]

In essence, he was agreeing with you bro.

 

That's not how I read it and that's not how Elhanan read it, cause he liked the post.

[Oni Changas]

Lol, if you were referring to my response, I'm not quite sure how you didn't realize how blatantly sarcastic I was being.

Oh I actually chuckled at that post. Its the Flanders in the thread that gjve me a hernia of logic.

[N7M]

Hell, man this thread got funny again. Next time a husk or other reaper creature shows up, they must be dressed in a pantsuit with their skin intact.


Really, lmao. How do you mother****ers function in public as adults? Ahahahaha. When you hit your toe at night do you shout "fiddlesticks!" out loud? This should be renamed the Jamoke Thread.

Btw, don't watch Riddick. You'll have SUCH a hissyfit from the meanies and meanie monsters and the bad naughty girl!

Which side of the debate are you trying to help with this irrational and histrionic post?

[Elhanan]

There is no reason to believe it would be profitable. What kind of new demographic would the game attract? Enough to offset the costs? Doubtful.
 
You haven't been listening. They would have to make tons of compromises and those would be felt by everyone, even players choosing not to use the toggle.
 
No, it can not be applied to pushing the envelope, because that situation doesn't exist. Games don't become more violent, more sexual or more vulgar just because. They still need to be rated, they still need to appeal to their demographic, they still need to be advertised. If the devs go too far, they won't be able to sell their game anymore.

* Depends on the Dev study (ie; telemetry data, parental market, etc).

* No; have not been reading. Ignore list remember? And there needs to be additional research.

* DAO did not have such strong language, DA2 was a little worse, and DAI worse still; all M rated.

[Chealec]

* Depends on the drain; might be profitable instead.

 

Doubt it - it works with movies where you've got a small box-office window and you need to get as many bums in seats as possible - things get cut just to lower the age rating so the tickets are available to a wider audience. However the average age of gamers is now pushing 30; I suspect the number of gamers offended by the fairly lightweight content in most computer games is pretty small.

 

Now, if it was possible to just chuck in profanity/nudity sliders in the Frostbite engine in a way that's very low on resources, if it's just something as simple as bleeps and blurs which the engine could add in almost automatically, then fine - if the tech was already there to use in a way that's not going to detract from what the game should be for anyone not using the content sliders - then I doubt toggling this stuff would be an issue. It's not though and therefore it is an issue.

 

I suspect cutting the things that make a game an 'M' rating would actually hurt sales overall; that the sales of Saint's Row would actually be lower if you couldn't beat people to death with a giant purple sex-toy. I know you're not arguing for things to be cut but if a content slider type of solution isn't technically feasible, and it certainly won't be for MEA, we know the tech it's built on, then the options are to drop the game content to a 'T' rating - which I suspect would actually hurt sales in the weird world of gaming - or to divert resources from the game and set back the release date to modify the engine and add in content sliders.

 

Personally I don't think either solution is worth it... you either hamstring the writers to try and get a 'T' rating (and possibly make a worse game; 'T' equates to 13+ so you'd have to really tame down the content for that) or put the game development back and increase the costs, for something that will probably have no great effect on sales one way or the other - the game would still be 'M' rated.

[FKA_Servo]

* Depends on the Dev study (ie; telemetry data, parental market, etc).

* No; have not been reading. Ignore list remember? And there needs to be additional research.

* DAO did not have such strong language, DA2 was a little worse, and DAI worse still; all M rated.

 

- I'm certain that any dev study would recommend that they keep on trucking. Most Bioware fans are adults. None of their recent games, barring Sonic, should be played by young children. The parental market is irrelevant.

 

- I laid out why I think none of these would work with a toggle here: http://forum.bioware...ent/?p=19523813

 

I think the reasoning is sound. Anybody, you included, is welcome to disagree, but I'd like to hear your specific reasons for doing so. I really don't think any of it is as simple as just a "toggle" though.

 

- The past few years have been transformational for gaming. An M rated game from 2015 is emphatically not an M rated game from 2005. Or 2010, for that matter. They've made a lot of progress towards greater cultural legitimacy in that time. Content standards are changing to be more closely in line with film and premium cable. Envelopes have been pushed by Bioware and other developers, and will continue to be pushed by Bioware and other developers.

 

That's a good thing.

[Elhanan]

Doubt it - it works with movies where you've got a small box-office window and you need to get as many bums in seats as possible - things get cut just to lower the age rating so the tickets are available to a wider audience. However the average age of gamers is now pushing 30; I suspect the number of gamers offended by the fairly lightweight content in most computer games is pretty small.
 
Now, if it was possible to just chuck in profanity/nudity sliders in the Frostbite engine in a way that's very low on resources, if it's just something as simple as bleeps and blurs which the engine could add in almost automatically, then fine - if the tech was already there to use in a way that's not going to detract from what the game should be for anyone not using the content sliders - then I doubt toggling this stuff would be an issue. It's not though and therefore it is an issue.
 
I suspect cutting the things that make a game an 'M' rating would actually hurt sales overall; that the sales of Saint's Row would actually be lower if you couldn't beat people to death with a giant purple sex-toy. I know you're not arguing for things to be cut but if a content slider type of solution isn't technically feasible, and it certainly won't be for MEA, we know the tech it's built on, then the options are to drop the game content to a 'T' rating - which I suspect would actually hurt sales in the weird world of gaming - or to divert resources from the game and set back the release date to modify the engine and add in content sliders.
 
Personally I don't think either solution is worth it... you either hamstring the writers to try and get a 'T' rating (and possibly make a worse game) or put the game development back and increase the costs, for something that will probably have no great effect on sales one way or the other - the game would still be 'M' rated.

As the Bio-Dev indicated, it is uncertain. Am willing and trusting enough that Bioware could look into the option. And if it could widen the Player base and/ or become profitable, am fairly secure that the business folks would be interested at that point.

Personally prefer a Silence Toggle, but am not a designer, so am willing to listen to other simpler considerations.

[Il Divo]

Well, "uncertain" meaning that he conceded he could be wrong. Johnson's conclusion, however, was that he didn't think it would justify the cost. 

[Chealec]

As the Bio-Dev indicated, it is uncertain. Am willing and trusting enough that Bioware could look into the option. And if it could widen the Player base and/ or become profitable, am fairly secure that the business folks would be interested at that point.

Personally prefer a Silence Toggle, but am not a designer, so am willing to listen to other simpler considerations.

 

I doubt a slider, silence toggle or whatever, would widen the player base though... at least not enough for it be make modding the underlying game engine economically viable. Maybe with MEA:2 that kind of thing might be built into whatever version of Unity or Unreal engine is being programmed at the time - but for MEA on Frostbite, it's highly unlikely. 

 

BioWare aren't a game engine studio; they're not Epic, Digital Illusions, Id or Unity - you want to lobby someone for building content sliders into the engine, lobby the people that actually make the engine... then you might see it used by the companies that make the games. It's been a long time since most games studios also wrote the engines in-house.

[Iakus]

Uh... what now? The simple fact that it would be an additional, unplanned feature alone already hurts things. BioWare operates on a limited budget for money, time, words and other resources. Implementing this inane toggle would mean something else would have to be cut instead and the release date would be postponed.

 

And that's just one reason. I listed more in my previous posts, as did other people.

It's only unplanned if it's... unplanned. 

 

There's already a gore toggle for Dragon Age.

Sex scenes have been skippable in the past.

[DaemionMoadrin]

It's only unplanned if it's... unplanned. 

 

There's already a gore toggle for Dragon Age.

Sex scenes have been skippable in the past.

 

Ah okay. You are willfully obtuse. Sorry, I thought you were serious.

 

DA:I has no gore toggle as far as I am aware. Since it is the only BioWare game based on FB3 so far, it's what we use for comparisons.

This thread is not about skipping content, it is about censoring it.

[dfjdejulio]

You technically are. You are advocating a level of censorship with which you are comfortable in order to censor content with which you are uncomfortable. You have the right to ask what you are asking for, but it doesn't make sense to be disingenuous in the process.

 

Huh?

 

Censorship is when you tell someone that they can't say something to someone else.

 

If you're asking for an optional filter, that's off by default, for your own use... I cannot see a valid stretching of definitions by which that's censorship.

 

While I would not typically use this feature myself, I certainly would have no objection to its inclusion (pending details).  If the feature obeyed parental control settings on the console, it might even cause me to let my younger nephews try out parts of the game (depending on details I don't have yet).

[The Hierophant]

If it's possible, there's no telling how many bugs a dialogue toggle would introduce into a FB3 game that's made by a team who has limited experience with the engine. Compared to the previous games DAI was riddled with such bugs. Since this is the team's first FB3 game i'd prefer it if they focused all their attention elsewhere, and save the creation of a swear toggle for when they're more familiar with the engine. 

[Chealec]

Huh?

 

Censorship is when you tell someone that they can't say something to someone else.

...

 

Not really, you can self-censor and that's still censorship technically - we all do it all the time; I never used the work c**t in front of my nan for instance.

[dinobot100]

I'm not sure how many people will see this, but I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who has shared there oppinions so far. When I posted this I was really bracing myself against people maybe not understanding my argument (because the letter was long, and subjects people have strong feelings about are always easy to misinterperate). I really thought about not posting it because of this and because I didn't feel like being berated by strangers about my opinions (which has happened in many places online when I've brought up some of my more artistically conservative values), but I'm afraid sometimes groups of people (in this case gamers) become more homogenized as time goes on because those with dissenting viewpoints learn to keep their mouths shut. I posted this because I didn't want to be a part of that problem. I was nervous, but almost everyone has given really good feedback—intriguing arguments on both sides of the issue and a lot of middle ground in-between that I've never even considered.

 

Even if my letter doesn't change anything in future games, I'm glad so many people could consider my point of view, whether you agree with it or not. The dialogue on here has been interesting and in-depth. I am especially grateful for the people who stood up for me when others were not totally clear on what I was trying to say.

[Iakus]

Ah okay. You are willfully obtuse. Sorry, I thought you were serious.

 

Right back at ya.

 

 

 

DA:I has no gore toggle as far as I am aware. Since it is the only BioWare game based on FB3 so far, it's what we use for comparisons.
 

Yeah, and here I use the entire franchise for comparison.  If a gore toggle makes Frostbite crawl into a corner and cry, then why is that?

 

 

This thread is not about skipping content, it is about censoring it.

No, it's about offering player choice.  It's right there in the OP.

[DaemionMoadrin]

No, it's about offering player choice.  It's right there in the OP.

 

A choice that has a measurable impact even on people who decide not to use the toggle is still censorship. At the least it would mean the writers have to censor themselves.