3411 réponses à ce sujet

[DaemionMoadrin]

I haven't caught up in this thread yet, but I'm noticing a common theme.

 

People bring up that they would like a toggle to remove questionable content from their individual playthrough, but the content still be there for those who want it, and if a couple gather quests need to be sacrificed to spare the resources to make such a toggle, or if the toggle is feasible by the development team then there is no harm in having it, these people seem to be made fun of (heck the first page of the other thread of the exact same name said this thread is made for prudes, its tone, dismissive.)

 

So, serious question here for those who oppose the toggle. If such a filter could be added by Bioware, and they had the resources to implement it without taking anything from the game, so you'd have roughly the same level of content as in Inquisition or previous Mass Effect games if you chose not to use it, what then is the basis for any form of objection against such a filter?

 

Cyonan already explained part of it, for the rest I recommend going back and reading the thread. I'm sick of repeating myself, sorry.

[dragonflight288]

I think asking a writer to censor themselves, and/or to write an alternate/cut version of their work for the sake of audience sensibilities is entitled and inconsiderate. I think any writer should refuse such a request on principle, and I also think the "where to draw the line" issue is arbitrary to the point that it would be time consuming, and ultimately discourage the Devs from writing whatever they please out of concern for where and what they may have to code a "toggle off" for. 

 

But, in all seriousness, and as someone who has a bachelor's degree in english writing and literature, is the writer really censoring themself if the content of what they have written is still there? 

 

Using this analogy, I instead would compare it to the reader choosing to skip a chapter in a book because of content within it, but the chapter is still there for those who want to enjoy it. 

 

The filter is a censor, yes, but one that only affects those who use it while the censored content is still available. 

 

And I'm someone who opposes that one author who rewrote Huckleberry Finn as a way to make it less racist because it took away the historical and cultural context of the time period and how much Jim actually risked to run away on that raft with Huck. 

[Mystlock]

Well, fifty four pages in, but - all right, mature romance scenes aren't necessary for the story but if you still want to do them, the option to censor could be reasonable. I get it - don't want to do them while friends or - worse - family are in the room. Right? And I like how the blood and gore content aren't all that high, should be an easy fix. Language is the same. Love Bioware for it. 

[Lady Artifice]

But, in all seriousness, and as someone who has a bachelor's degree in english writing and literature, is the writer really censoring themself if the content of what they have written is still there? 

 

Using this analogy, I instead would compare it to the reader choosing to skip a chapter in a book because of content within it, but the chapter is still there for those who want to enjoy it. 

 

The filter is a censor, yes, but one that only affects those who use it while the censored content is still available. 

 

And I'm someone who opposes that one author who rewrote Huckleberry Finn as a way to make it less racist because it took away the historical and cultural context of the time period and how much Jim actually risked to run away on that raft with Huck. 

 

In all seriousness, I believe they are. In your analogy, the author would not be complicit in the reader's choice to skip the chapter. In the case of this toggle, the Devs would be. I think the Huckleberry Finn dilemma has more significance here than the "skip a chapter" example. Where do we draw the line when deciding what's appropriate or necessary for context? 

 

I'm an english major as well, and a writer. I would generally not feel warmly towards the request that I make an alternate, censored version of one of my pieces. Would you? 

[Fandango]

So, serious question here for those who oppose the toggle. If such a filter could be added by Bioware, and they had the resources to implement it without taking anything from the game, so you'd have roughly the same level of content as in Inquisition or previous Mass Effect games if you chose not to use it, what then is the basis for any form of objection against such a filter?

I think a large part of the problem here is that those asking for a toggle have yet to properly define what it is it's supposed to do (even when asked directly). I mean, given that we all have different tastes and tolerances when it comes to this sort of thing, what would this filter even look like?

[dragonflight288]

I'm not sure if you've reached it yet, but at some point a few pages back we started explaining about how such a filter is actually a fair bit more work than many people suspect it currently is. Even Brojo made some posts about it.

 

Basically if you were to implement a filter for language, it would effectively double your voice acting work for any line with mature language in it plus additional work in testing that the switch is actually working(which means more than just checking 1 or 2 lines and assuming it works in every condition).

 

What it comes down to ultimately is how much is this going to cost and how much do they think they're going to make up in sales by implementing it? I could be wrong, but it's not the kind of thing that I see having a particularly large target market. Especially since this isn't going to lower Andromeda's ESRB rating due to the mature language not actually being removed from the game.

 

You also have to compare it against other features you could implement instead. It may not be that we give up just a few fetch quests to get it. It's impossible for us to say what we would ultimately not get in favour of this toggle.

 

I get the resource management bit, so that makes sense in that regard. I even commented in some of the earlier pages, or middle pages or whatever, about how much extra resources the Voice Actors, using equipment in the studio, as well as the writing team's approach are already a high cost and there's no point in needlessly adding on to it when Bioware is targeting a specific audience anyway.

 

I also understand that one person finds "explicit language" is another person's everyday use of it and see nothing wrong with it, so Bioware would then run into the problem of "who gets to decide what language is appropriate and what isn't," and that is something that can't be answered with any degree of authority. Should S*** become Crap, should crap become crud, should the f bomb become fudge, if gotten into too much becomes kind of silly.

 

Unless silly is exactly what you're going for then have at it, but I don't expect Bioware to do that, except maybe for an eccentric character.

 

My question was based on the context of what I had already commented on in earlier pages, as, like I said, I hadn't read all of this thread yet, is on the explicit sexual content during romance arcs, and whether or not simply adding in a fade-to black and having an intimate conversation afterwards would take away from the game itself but is eye-candy for the gamer, should they choose to enjoy it, added in with the assumption that the resources are there for that particular filter.

 

I probably should have been more clear.  

 

But if the option is viable and doesn't take anything of actual substance from the game, say maybe a fetch quest or two is scrapped as a result of the filter, I can live with that, but in all other ways the game remains strong with a good story and great characters, then I see no reason not to include such a filter that can be turned on or off in the options menu.

 

But, as I've said before, roughly 30 or so pages ago, as a gamer, my biggest priority when I play a game is to have fun playing the game. I love my games to have a solid story, strong characters, and in the case of Bioware games, meaningful decision making. 

 

I play Batman Arkham Asylum because I want to be the Batman and taking on Batman villains. I play Harvest Moon if I'm ever in the mood for a slice-of-life farming simulator, I play Pokemon, mostly out of nostalgia of enjoying the show as a kid but still enjoy it for its wide varieties of pokemon that can be caught and the almost infinite variations of your battle party, and I play Bioware games for the story and the characters, from KOTOR, Jade Empire, the Dragon Age or the Mass Effect series, I've enjoyed them largely for those reasons. 

 

I find enjoyable game play more important than the filter, as most of the explicit content I personally have issues with is largely optional, but if it's possible to have my cake and eat it too, with solid gameplay as well as a viable filter in such a regard, I have no issues with it. And if resource management gets in the way of adding the filter or hurting the game, I'd rather bag the filter and have a good game.

 

If both are viable, then why not?

[dragonflight288]

I think a large part of the problem here is that those asking for a toggle have yet to properly define what it is it's supposed to do (even when asked directly). I mean, given that we all have different tastes and tolerances when it comes to this sort of thing, what would this filter even look like?

 

I understand the problems with a language filter, and the complications of who gets to decide what is and what isn't explicit. I also understand the problem with resource management with the voice actors and the writing team possibly needing to write several scripts for what is otherwise the exact same dialogue, so I wouldn't ask for that. 

 

Rather for me, I wouldn't mind a filter that would have the sexual content fade to black for those who don't want to view it. There already is a gore filter to limit blood, so that's not really an issue.

[Battlebloodmage]

You can already skip the sex scene for most companions by choosing a different option which would not result in sex but still maintain the relationship. With alien romance, I doubt they have as much balls as a Krogan to include alien sex, so they're likely all gonna be fade to black anyway.

[dragonflight288]

In all seriousness, I believe they are. In your analogy, the author would not be complicit in the reader's choice to skip the chapter. In the case of this toggle, the Devs would be. I think the Huckleberry Finn dilemma has more significance here than the "skip a chapter" example. Where do we draw the line when deciding what's appropriate or necessary for context? 

 

I'm an english major as well, and a writer. I would generally not feel warmly towards the request that I make an alternate, censored version of one of my pieces. Would you? 

 

Nope. I write what I write because I enjoy writing it. 

 

I guess, as one writer to another, we may end up disagreeing on whether an optional fade-to-black scene (which is really what I'm talking about) is more akin to an author censoring themselves or the reader skipping a chapter.

 

 

You can already skip the sex scene for most companions by choosing a different option which would not result in sex but still maintain the relationship. With alien romance, I doubt they have as much balls as a Krogan to include alien sex, so they're likely all gonna be fade to black anyway.

 

But some cases, like in Inquisition if you romance Cassandra, there is the pillow talk after, but Cassandra's bare breasts are on display and there's no way to bypass it because the conversation is during that moment.

 

Now don't get me wrong, some of the strongest characterization for Cassandra is done in that scene. I'm simply talking about where such an option is viable.

 

But, as I said earlier, my highest priority is strong story, great characters, and fun gameplay. I'm simply talking about the filter largely because that's what this thread is about, and I have no objections to such an optional filter being implemented if it is viable. 

[dragonflight288]

I don't really understand the arguments against rewriting dialog when conventional censorship just involves bleeping out the offending word.

As for gore, well they could do like anime and just put obnoxious black bars over any traces of blood, lewd content or even a cigarette if it's in the mouth of an underage character.

That would be pretty funny.

 

I think that would be hilarious if a game is going for a more comedic or a parody approach. 

 

Bioware may one an odd character here or there that is utterly over the top, but for the most part the games themselves aren't about that, and try to deal with things in a mature manner for a mature audience.

 

Unlike Sir Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom the Magnificent Bastard.

 

[Battlebloodmage]

I honestly don't get the hung up over breasts personally. My school has a recent event where the female students go topless. Male chests can be erotic for those who are into males just as breasts are to women. In the end, they are all just social construct of what see or deem as acceptable. 

 

Anyway, the developers stated that it's an oversight. As long as they have the option in the dialogue to skip it, there is no need to make an alternate scene for non-nude and take up resource. It seems like cutscene eats up a lot of resource regardless of what it is. 

[Fandango]

Rather for me, I wouldn't mind a filter that would have the sexual content fade to black for those who don't want to view it. There already is a gore filter to limit blood, so that's not really an issue.

Right, but other people will want different things. I mean, what of those who would see gunplay removed from the game altogether? What of those calling for the gore to be replaced with something a little more authentic, so as to give pause to players who would otherwise run and gun their way through the game without a second thought? What of those who would see the violence completely sanitised? What of those calling for a non-lethal playthrough option? How on earth does BioWare even begin to deliver on all of that (and that's just looking at violence)?

Moreover, at what point are we allowed to say to people who are simply unable to cope with a little M rated content in their M rated videogames, that M rated videogames are probably not for them?

[DaemionMoadrin]

I don't really understand the arguments against rewriting dialog when conventional censorship just involves bleeping out the offending word.

As for gore, well they could do like anime and just put obnoxious black bars over any traces of blood, lewd content or even a cigarette if it's in the mouth of an underage character.

That would be pretty funny.

 

PLEASE read the thread before bringing up old discussions again. Seriously.

 

Bleeping out isn't any easier to implement than recording different lines, except you don't need to pay the voice actors.

[Lady Artifice]

For the most, I feel differently about most visual filters than I do about dialogue filters. A gore toggle? Cool. A helmet toggle? Sure. A fade to black in an otherwise entirely visual sex scene? No big. But what if instead a short, conversation is scripted to happen during the nudity portion of that scene? Now the situation is muddied. Do the developers go to the effort of implementing the toggle around the originally planned conversation or do they rewrite the sequence/cut the content? 

[dragonflight288]

Right, but other people will want different things. I mean, what of those who would see the gunplay removed from the game altogether? What of those calling for the gore to be replaced with something a little more authentic, so as to give pause to those who would otherwise run and gun their way through the game without a second thought? What of those who would see the violence completely sanitised? What of those calling for a non-lethal playthrough option? How on earth does BioWare even begin to deliver on all that? Moreover, at what point are we allowed to say to people who are simply unable to cope with a little M rated content in their M rated videogames, that M rated videogames are probably not for them?

 

I find it odd that a game is is advertised as both an RPG and a shooter would have anyone other than the super-eccentric politically correct crowd demand that guns be removed.

 

But that's the thing about developers. They have the right to make what they want, and then advertise it to their target audience. If you're outside the target audience, you can choose to leave it be and not get it. 

 

If people are really offended at the content, they won't get it. And that's not an issue either. I know people who specifically chose not to buy the Witcher games because of what they read on the warning label.

 

Which is kind of what it's for, really. 

 

I'm all for the developers developing the game as they choose, but if they also feel they can add such a filter and it doesn't hurt the game, again I say that I see no harm in it. And also again, my biggest priority as a gamer is to enjoy the games I play, and I'm less concerned about the filter than this thread is probably making it out, as I'm mostly just staying on topic.

 

Fact is, my position is really simple. If Bioware decides they can add a filter without hurting the meat of their game, the story, the characters and the gameplay, and choose to do so, let them and there will be no need to complain as it is optional. If Bioware chooses NOT to include the filter due to resources or any other reason, then by all means. It just means that the people buying the game will simply have to accept what is there and deal with it, or skip over content when available because warning labels exist for a reason. 

 

That's the long and short of my position.

[dragonflight288]

For the most, I feel differently about most visual filters than I do about dialogue filters. A gore toggle? Cool. A helmet toggle? Sure. A fade to black in an otherwise entirely visual sex scene? No big. But what if instead a short, conversation is scripted to happen during the nudity portion of that scene? Now the situation is muddied. Do the developers go to the effort of implementing the toggle around the originally planned conversation or do they rewrite the sequence/cut the content? 

 

Can't answer there. I'm not a game developer. And I felt Cassandra's scene in Inquisition was perfect for Cassandra's character, and added a lot to her.

 

I'll just quote myself on the post I made before since I think we posted at the same time. 

 

"Fact is, my position is really simple. If Bioware decides they can add a filter without hurting the meat of their game, the story, the characters and the gameplay, and choose to do so, let them and there will be no need to complain as it is optional. If Bioware chooses NOT to include the filter due to resources or any other reason, then by all means. It just means that the people buying the game will simply have to accept what is there and deal with it, or skip over content when available because warning labels exist for a reason. 

 

That's the long and short of my position."

[Fandango]

I'm all for the developers developing the game as they choose, but if they also feel they can add such a filter and it doesn't hurt the game, again I say that I see no harm in it. And also again, my biggest priority as a gamer is to enjoy the games I play, and I'm less concerned about the filter than this thread is probably making it out, as I'm mostly just staying on topic.
 
Fact is, my position is really simple. If Bioware decides they can add a filter without hurting the meat of their game, the story, the characters and the gameplay, and choose to do so, let them and there will be no need to complain as it is optional. If Bioware chooses NOT to include the filter due to resources or any other reason, then by all means. It just means that the people buying the game will simply have to accept what is there and deal with it, or skip over content when available because warning labels exist for a reason. 
 
That's the long and short of my position.

All of which would mean more if adding this blessed filter to ME:A would make the game all things to all players. Not so simple.

[Lady Artifice]

I don't really understand the arguments against rewriting dialog when conventional censorship just involves bleeping out the offending word.

As for gore, well they could do like anime and just put obnoxious black bars over any traces of blood, lewd content or even a cigarette if it's in the mouth of an underage character.

That would be pretty funny.

 

I think there is a bit of a difference between a bleep and a rewrite. A bleeb masks a word, but usually retains the intent and the tone. Rewriting content has the potential to do a lot more damage to subtext and characterization. 

[DaemionMoadrin]

Fact is, my position is really simple. If Bioware decides they can add a filter without hurting the meat of their game, the story, the characters and the gameplay, and choose to do so, let them and there will be no need to complain as it is optional. If Bioware chooses NOT to include the filter due to resources or any other reason, then by all means. It just means that the people buying the game will simply have to accept what is there and deal with it, or skip over content when available because warning labels exist for a reason. 

 

That's the long and short of my position.

 

Gore filter: Tricky. You can hide persistent gore cause that's just a texture but that's as far as it goes. Exploding heads and other gruesome animations are much more difficult to hide or replace. Same is true for bodies on the ground and other parts of the map that could be classified as violent (heads on pikes etc). I don't really see a way to implement a toggle for those without actively cutting out content, which in turn would change the impression the game is trying to make. Hiding body horror stuff like the Husks, Cannibals etc is impossible.

 

Nudity filter: Difficult to do without turning serious scenes silly. Unless the writers compromise and remove dialogue from sex scenes, you can't skip them without missing out on content. A toggle would mean that you don't show T&A, which could be accomplished with different camera angles or just showing the faces ... that would "only" require to create each scene twice. As an animator I wouldn't be confident if I could get the same tone in both scenes though. Another option would be an overlay that blurs the offending body part or covers them with censor bars. This is akin to the bleep problematic and would look kinda silly and/or break immersion in a big way.

 

Language filter: This one is hard. Option 1: Record different lines. This is obviously a bad idea because it would be costly, inflate the size of the game and make it next to impossible to write good, consistent characters. (Example: Vincent and Jules from Pulp Viction are completely different people if you replace all the swearwords.) It would mean the writers would have to create characters that work the same in both versions. Personally, I can't imagine how that would work without changing the mature version first so it can be used with a toggle. At this point it would be easier to just make the censored version.

Option 2: Bleep out the offending words. You have to find the words in the game and either play a second track on top of them or stop the playback, play the bleep, jump ahead in the file and continue the playback. Then you do the same to the subtitles.

You'd have to do that for every single language seperately.

 

There are multiple, serious problems with these filters.

 

First, you need a way to determine what needs to be filtered out and what is okay. As pointed out before, there are many different rating systems worldwide, all with slightly different standards. If you don't want to use those, then you have to come up with something by yourself. What is okay? What is too much?

 

Secondly, it isn't profitable. The game would still be rated M, so it's not like you can reach a younger demographic with your toggle. How are you going to pay for all the additional work? People would need to do research, they would need to do a fair amount of coding, they might have to create new cutscenes, record new VOs and then test all of it. From a business point of view, such an investment with basically no return makes no sense.

 

Thirdly, adding such a feature makes the game more complex. I'm not saying it makes finding bugs exponentially more difficult but it introduces new factors which will have to be accounted for. So instead of testing 4 possible bugs, you'd need to test 8. It also increases the size of the game, which could mean additional discs for shipping.

 

Fourthly, do you apply the same filters for each market or do you create different ones? For example, a nudity filter wouldn't see much use in Germany while a violence filter wouldn't be used much in the US.

 

Fifthly, if such filters were possible, then why haven't they been used in games before? If there is profit to be made, if there is a demand, if it is possible... why doesn't it exist yet?

 

Sixthly, you will still run into people who aren't satisfied with the censorship, because they have different standards. You can't ever create a filter that's good enough. Example, we have a language filter in this forum and we still have an user going around and reporting people for their use of profanity. Coincidently it's someone who's very vocal in his demand for a Toggle.

 

 

Personal comments: I have zero problems with nudity and I'm still amazed at how uptight some people are. Oh noes, a nipple! Well, so what? They are just breasts. Mighty fine but not the holy grail or something to get overly excited over. Nudity doesn't need to be sexualized.

Showing violence in games is okay when it's necessary for the gameplay/story... but not if it's gratuitous.

Strong language needs to fit, too. I think so far BioWare has been very tame with the language and it didn't reflect its use in RL.

 

Having options is good, yes. But buying a mature game and then wanting to turn off the mature parts doesn't really make sense. It's like ordering a Vindaloo curry and asking the chef to not make it spicy. Why not order a mild curry in the first place then? It's bound to be better.

 

 

Conclusion: Those filters (the famed 'Toggle') would require compromises from the writers in some form (try to write dialogue when half the words are bleeped out and still deliver the same tone and context), it would require a lot of money, time and other resources to implement and there is zero reason to believe it would actually recoup any investment. Additionally it would make testing more difficult, which translates in longer times for bugfixes and patches.

I can't see any way how such a filter (except for the persistent gore one) could be truly optional without affecting the players even if they don't use the toggle.

[nici2412]

 At this point it would be easier to just make the censored version.
 

Great post and I agree with pretty much everything. Though I want to highlight this point, as it's the most important reason against such a toggle aside from the necessity to waste ressources on it.

If a writer has to write two versions of the same scene I can see him dropping the more explicit one, just to save time and ressources. In this case everybody would get the light version and in opposite to what some people are claiming here I would be indeed affected by this self-censorship.

 

I still haven't read a single reason for such a filter aside from "I don't like such a content" and that's not a convincing reason at all. I'm sure a lot of people won't like a lot of things about the game, but they are part of it and have a purpose. The question is if they bother you that much. If that's the case the game just isn't for you and  you have the right to not buy it. I for instance would do so if they decided to remove every mature content and make a T rated game out of it. That's not the Mass Effect I know and not the Mass Effect I expect and want.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

So, serious question here for those who oppose the toggle. If such a filter could be added by Bioware, and they had the resources to implement it without taking anything from the game, so you'd have roughly the same level of content as in Inquisition or previous Mass Effect games if you chose not to use it, what then is the basis for any form of objection against such a filter?

It's a pointless "What-If" because a Dev has already said that there is no room in the budget for something like this.  Don't expect a magical money tree to sprout leaves of cash and solve the issue of finite resources.

The objections people have stated are logical and based on the stated facts of finite resources.  Pretending otherwise is wishful thinking and delusional.  Your question presents no useful purpose because the facts don't fit your scenario. 

[Elhanan]

Bioware could start with the language (data base?) that is not permitted or deleted here on BSN.