3411 réponses à ce sujet

[countofhell]

A little gore and sex scene won't hurt anyone. However switching the explicit content on/off allways before starting a new game could be very annoying.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Bioware could start with the language (data base?) that is not permitted or deleted here on BSN.

 

You don't even understand the basic principles of a filter nor have you given it much thought.

[Elhanan]

...
 
I'll just quote myself on the post I made before since I think we posted at the same time. 
 
"Fact is, my position is really simple. If Bioware decides they can add a filter without hurting the meat of their game, the story, the characters and the gameplay, and choose to do so, let them and there will be no need to complain as it is optional. If Bioware chooses NOT to include the filter due to resources or any other reason, then by all means. It just means that the people buying the game will simply have to accept what is there and deal with it, or skip over content when available because warning labels exist for a reason.
 
That's the long and short of my position."

Well said.

[rashie]

Bioware could start with the language (data base?) that is not permitted or deleted here on BSN.

They could.

 

That still leaves the issue of voice acting, making sure beeped out/replaced dialogue makes sense with the narrative in the same way as the uncensored version, and the implementation of such a filter.

 

Resources aren't infinite.

[Elhanan]

They could.
 
That still leaves the issue of voice acting, making sure beeped out/replaced dialogue makes sense with the narrative in the same way as the uncensored version, and the implementation of such a filter.
 
Resources aren't infinite.

And they are not restricted to the point where it cannot be analyzed to see if possible, viable, and cost effective.

[DaemionMoadrin]

And they are not restricted to the point where it cannot be analyzed to see if possible, viable, and cost effective.

 

Wrong.

 

There is no demand and no reason for them to even look into this. The whole 'Toggle' business ends right there, it doesn't go as far as research or analysis.

 

It's time to give up.

[Il Divo]

I haven't caught up in this thread yet, but I'm noticing a common theme.

 

People bring up that they would like a toggle to remove questionable content from their individual playthrough, but the content still be there for those who want it, and if a couple gather quests need to be sacrificed to spare the resources to make such a toggle, or if the toggle is feasible by the development team then there is no harm in having it, these people seem to be made fun of (heck the first page of the other thread of the exact same name said this thread is made for prudes, its tone, dismissive.)

 

So, serious question here for those who oppose the toggle. If such a filter could be added by Bioware, and they had the resources to implement it without taking anything from the game, so you'd have roughly the same level of content as in Inquisition or previous Mass Effect games if you chose not to use it, what then is the basis for any form of objection against such a filter?

 

I'd recommend taking a look at some of Bryan Johnson's comments in this thread. Hit the "show Bioware posts only". The "It wouldn't take up resources" point has been debunked.

 

On another level, David Gaider made a similar point when fans asked for the option to show explicit lines on the dialogue wheel instead of the paraphrase system. The line fans typically toss around is that it's optional and wouldn't take up resources. But that could be used to justify any/every optional feature. And as you pile up each individual feature, you're taking resources that could be used for other parts of the game. The question becomes: which optional features are worth implementing?

 

In this case, we've had a Bioware dev come in here and tell us pretty explicitly that market research would cost money, and that based on his experience there doesn't seem to be a market for this.

[Elhanan]

I'd recommend taking a look at some of Bryan Johnson's comments in this thread. Hit the "show Bioware posts only". The "It wouldn't take up resources" point has been debunked.
 
On another level, David Gaider made a similar point when fans asked for the option to show explicit lines on the dialogue wheel instead of the paraphrase system. The line fans typically toss around is that it's optional and wouldn't take up resources. But that could be used to justify any/every optional feature. And as you pile up each individual feature, you're taking resources that could be used for other parts of the game. The question becomes: which optional features are worth implementing?
 
In this case, we've had a Bioware dev come in here and tell us pretty explicitly that market research would cost money, and that based on his experience there doesn't seem to be a market for this.

Yes, based on the opinion of a single Dev, which he also included in those posts. Now Bioware can support them with data and facts, or discover there is a market for the option, and look into placing it in the game.

[Il Divo]

Yes, based on the opinion of a single Dev, which he also included in those posts. Now Bioware can support them with data and facts, or discover there is a market for the option, and look into placing it in the game.

 

Sure they could. And they could look into my "remove the color orange toggle" with market research. And someone's sarcasm-toggle, mentioned pages earlier. I'm sure I could drum up 4-5 people to support those somewhere on the internet and about a million other near-useless features.

 

If Bioware wastes their time supporting every miniscule feature, that's all wasted resources. There are a million people asking for different features in their Bioware game: why should they spend the time looking into your feature, when on the face of it, there are others which appear to be much more profitable?

 

If you want this feature so badly, then you should go ahead and do the research for it. Make a poll. Drum up support in other internet forums. Give them a reason to actually think this isn't a complete waste of time.

[Kantr]

Yes, based on the opinion of a single Dev, which he also included in those posts. Now Bioware can support them with data and facts, or discover there is a market for the option, and look into placing it in the game.

Why would they do that? EA isn't going to fund it as they aren't trying to sell the game to children and people who don't like nudity and violence. That's what Plants vs Zombies is for.

[Elhanan]

Sure they could. And they could look into my "remove the color orange toggle" with market research. And someone's sarcasm-toggle, mentioned pages earlier. I'm sure I could drum up 4-5 people to support those somewhere on the internet and about a million other near-useless features.
 
If Bioware wastes their time supporting every miniscule feature, that's all wasted resources. There are a million people asking for different features in their Bioware game: why should they spend the time looking into your feature, when on the face of it, there are others which appear to be much more profitable?
 
If you want this feature so badly, then you should go ahead and do the research for it. Make a poll. Drum up support in other internet forums. Give them a reason to actually think this isn't a complete waste of time.

EA can poll and survey if they wish, as well as other research, and better determine market size. Simply going by the opinion of one Dev, or that of the vocal detractors that seem unwilling to allow others to have an option that they do not want themselves does not seem the best way to proceed in a business. But like the Dev states, I also could be incorrect.

[Il Divo]

EA can poll and survey if they wish, as well as other research, and better determine market size. Simply going by the opinion of one Dev, or that of the vocal detractors that seem unwilling to allow others to have an option that they do not want themselves does not seem the best way to proceed in a business. But like the Dev states, I also could be incorrect.

 

I'll trust the opinion of one dev over that of a single forum poster.

 

And it's certainly a better approach to business than demanding that Bioware investigate every single request a fan might make, resulting in a deficit. If you actually had some support for this feature, it might have been worth looking into. Unfortunately, your support amounts to less than 10 people. And I think I'm being generous there.

 

Once more: you want Bioware to look into this, show them there's a market. Do something useful on this front.

[Elhanan]

I'll trust the opinion of one dev over that of a single forum poster.
 
And it's certainly a better approach to business than demanding that Bioware investigate every single request a fan might make, resulting in a deficit. If you actually had some support for this feature, it might have been worth looking into. Unfortunately, your support amounts to less than 10 people. And I think I'm being generous there.
 
Once more: you want Bioware to look into this, show them there's a market.

There I go again; demanding and running all over Bioware and EA again....

Glad one is not using this single thread, or the parody to formulate the opinions of the community. That would be similar to using the vocal detractors/ supporters as a supposed majority or minority to implement/ delete features.

Instead we have a forum for Suggestions and Feedback, where the OP suggests politely about content Toggles; an idea that I support. My suggestion is that it is looked into further.

[Il Divo]

There I go again; demanding and running all over Bioware and EA again....

Glad one is not using this single thread, or the parody to formulate the opinions of the community. That would be similar to using the vocal detractors/ supporters as a supposed majority or minority to implement/ delete features.

Instead we have a forum for Suggestions and Feedback, where the OP suggests politely about content Toggles; an idea that I support. My suggestion is that it is looked into further.

 

 

Lemme highlight the important word for you: vocal. It's funny that you use this like it's a dirty word, when it's a pretty good starting point for observing demand for a feature, which can lead to market research. See, for example, the effect of vocal fans in at least getting Bioware's attention for the ME3 ending. Your suggestion can't even do that, beyond having a dev tell you that it's pretty much a waste of time, from a resource and marketing standpoint.

 

If Bioware followed your approach to game design, doing market research on every feature with a thread for it, they'd probably be bankrupt. I supported the OP's right to express feedback and defended him. You, on other hand, continue to make a fool of yourself by ignoring the realities of game design.

 

And with that, I think I'm finished with you.

 

 

[Elhanan]

Lemme highlight the important word for you: vocal. It's funny that you use this like it's a dirty word, when it's a pretty good starting point for observing demand for a feature, which can lead to market research. See, for example, the effect of vocal fans in at least getting Bioware's attention for the ME3 ending. Your suggestion can't even do that, beyond having a dev tell you that it's pretty much a waste of time, from a resource and marketing standpoint.
 
If Bioware followed your approach to game design, doing market research on every feature with a thread for it, they'd probably be bankrupt. I supported the OP's right to express feedback and defended him. You, on other hand, continue to make a fool of yourself by ignoring the realities of game design.
 
And with that, I think I'm finished with you.

Thank you.

And I quote:

Why is that? I am certainly capable of being wrong.

[DaemionMoadrin]

EA can poll and survey if they wish, as well as other research, and better determine market size. Simply going by the opinion of one Dev, or that of the vocal detractors that seem unwilling to allow others to have an option that they do not want themselves does not seem the best way to proceed in a business. But like the Dev states, I also could be incorrect.

 

You certaintly could be incorrect. In fact, all signs point to you being completely wrong.

 

EA will do no such thing because polls and surveys cost money. They have absolutely no reason to initiate anything because there is no market. No demand. No artistic or design reason. Nothing whatsoever... except one lonely voice on the internet.

 

You can play with words all you like... "vocal detractors unwilling to allow others to have an option that they do not want themselves" is a bit heavy handed though. Not as bad as your "assault" comment earlier, but still. Do you really think we're arguing here just for the fun of it? Have you ever considered that we might have a point? If ~100 people say no and you are the only one saying yes, what does that tell you? Are you such an impeccable genius? Do you have experience in the field that others lack? Do you have any access to information we do not? I doubt it.

 

"The Dev" has a name, btw.

[Iakus]

I think asking a writer to censor themselves, and/or to write an alternate/cut version of their work for the sake of audience sensibilities is entitled and inconsiderate. I think any writer should refuse such a request on principle, and I also think the "where to draw the line" issue is arbitrary to the point that it would be time consuming, and ultimately discourage the Devs from writing whatever they please out of concern for where and what they may have to code a "toggle off" for. 

Uh, stuff gets "censored" during peer review all the time.  Including for reasons of "audience sensibilities"

[Sartoz]

Great post and I agree with pretty much everything. Though I want to highlight this point, as it's the most important reason against such a toggle aside from the necessity to waste ressources on it.

If a writer has to write two versions of the same scene I can see him dropping the more explicit one, just to save time and ressources. In this case everybody would get the light version and in opposite to what some people are claiming here I would be indeed affected by this self-censorship.

 

I still haven't read a single reason for such a filter aside from "I don't like such a content" and that's not a convincing reason at all. I'm sure a lot of people won't like a lot of things about the game, but they are part of it and have a purpose. The question is if they bother you that much. If that's the case the game just isn't for you and  you have the right to not buy it. I for instance would do so if they decided to remove every mature content and make a T rated game out of it. That's not the Mass Effect I know and not the Mass Effect I expect and want.

 

                                                                         <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

As I said somewhere else, individuals who buy M 18+ rated games that clearly indicates NUDITY and are offended by such, have no business being here or even buying the bloody game, let alone asking for a toggle switch.

[Sartoz]

Uh, stuff gets "censored" during peer review all the time.  Including for reasons of "audience sensibilities"

 

                                                                        <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

So, we get the scrubbed version? Geez.. and these guys continue to complain?  Wonder od wonders.

[Iakus]

Sure they could. And they could look into my "remove the color orange toggle" with market research. And someone's sarcasm-toggle, mentioned pages earlier. I'm sure I could drum up 4-5 people to support those somewhere on the internet and about a million other near-useless features.

 

If Bioware wastes their time supporting every miniscule feature, that's all wasted resources. There are a million people asking for different features in their Bioware game: why should they spend the time looking into your feature, when on the face of it, there are others which appear to be much more profitable?

 

If you want this feature so badly, then you should go ahead and do the research for it. Make a poll. Drum up support in other internet forums. Give them a reason to actually think this isn't a complete waste of time.

 

To be fair, though, the matter of nudity, violence, and even language in their games comes up considerably more often than use of the color orange.  This isn't exactly a new topic.  And even if toggles for all these things are not feasible, the fact that this is a concern for at least some of the players should be kept in mind.

[pdusen]

So, serious question here for those who oppose the toggle. If such a filter could be added by Bioware, and they had the resources to implement it without taking anything from the game, so you'd have roughly the same level of content as in Inquisition or previous Mass Effect games if you chose not to use it, what then is the basis for any form of objection against such a filter?

 

I object on the premise that making that filter actually work would require some scenes to be written entirely differently than they would have been written if the filter weren't a consideration.

[Il Divo]

To be fair, though, the matter of nudity, violence, and even language in their games comes up considerably more often than use of the color orange.  This isn't exactly a new topic.  And even if toggles for all these things are not feasible, the fact that this is a concern for at least some of the players should be kept in mind.

 

Personally, I've been lurking on here since ME2's launch. I've seen the topic of language pop up exactly 3 times, and all to the same result. Of course, there's always going to be variability (I'm not on these forums all the time, so that's not definitive, by any stretch. There's also other forums out there). On the other hand, we also have Bryan himself admitting he hasn't seen enough support for this even to be worth exploring.

 

It's possible that there is a market for this feature. But at this stage, it doesn't seem even remotely probable, whether going by number of fans or expert opinion. We may not have all the evidence on hand, but what evidence we do have seems to point against this as a feature.  

[Iakus]

Personally, I've been lurking on here since ME2's launch. I've seen the topic of language pop up exactly 3 times, and all to the same result. Of course, there's always going to be variability (I'm not on these forums all the time, so that's not definitive, by any stretch. There's also other forums out there). On the other hand, we also have Bryan himself admitting he hasn't seen enough support for this even to be worth exploring.

 

It's possible that there is a market for this feature. But at this stage, it doesn't seem even remotely probable, whether going by number of fans or expert opinion. We may not have all the evidence on hand, but what evidence we do have seems to point against this as a feature.  

Nudity does seem to get the lion's share of such discussion.  Violence too, to some degree.

 

But whether or not it's feasible to implement such a feature, I do think it's important fro Bioware to be mindful of player concerns.  Heck ME3 alone should be a good reminder of that, if for different reasons 

[Lady Artifice]

Uh, stuff gets "censored" during peer review all the time.  Including for reasons of "audience sensibilities"

 

Of course it does, but that has nothing to do with this. I'm not dealing in absolutes, and if we start conflating this request with the writers' willing effort to revise their work for the sake of a higher quality product, we're going to get lost in the pettifog. 

 

Writer's do often need to censor themselves, to a degree, if including something would be imprudent or unclear. But there is a huge difference between a writer doing that, and acquiescing to a request to write an alternate, squeaky clean version of their work.

 

The former is necessary, and usually beneficial to the work in question. The latter would be a hack move. I don't even think it would be particularly ethical. 

[Il Divo]

Nudity does seem to get the lion's share of such discussion.  Violence too, to some degree.

 

But whether or not it's feasible to implement such a feature, I do think it's important fro Bioware to be mindful of player concerns.  Heck ME3 alone should be a good reminder of that, if for different reasons 

 

I wouldn't disagree on that point. I'm with you on the ME3 dislike train. It's just that was more a scenario where numbers indicated pretty handily that people hated the ME3 endings, based on vocal dissent. Trust me, if I saw that level of dedication to the language filter by the fan base, I'd say it's probably better for Bioware to suck it up and just do it.