3411 réponses à ce sujet

[N7M]

All of them are mild M. Gore and swearing remain minimal throughout the trilogy, and ME1 actually has the most explicit sexual content.

Minimal is a matter of perception, if what a person is watching is close to their limit. To approach gore specifically for example, the blood spray from head shots in ME2, as shown in the Sizzle trailer, was not in ME1. Decapitation of enemies become the norm for headshots in ME3.

[Chealec]

All of them are mild M. Gore and swearing remain minimal throughout the trilogy, and ME1 actually has the most explicit sexual content.

 

... and curiously that was the only one rated 12 in the UK ... 2 and 3 were both rated 15 (BBFC ratings).

[Gwydden]

Minimal is a matter of perception, if what a person is watching is close to their limit. To approach gore specifically for example, the blood spray from head shots in ME2, as shown in the Sizzle trailer, was not in ME1. Decapitation of enemies become the norm for headshots in ME3.

You're right. It is a matter of perception. I don't even remember noticing any of those things, which probably means I just didn't care enough to register it while playing.

 

So seeing we agree it is all highly subjective I hope we can also agree that picking any one person's arbitrary 'limit' is silly, right?

 

... and curiously that was the only one rated 12 in the UK ... 2 and 3 were both rated 15 (BBFC ratings).

Maybe it was the increase in gore and swearing other people mentioned, even if I never seem to have noticed it myself beyond maybe Jack swearing here and there. I understand in Europe they do not care so much about explicit sexual content as they do in the US.

 

But even if ME2 and ME3 had a little more swearing and gore it was still a ridiculously small amount, certainly nothing to write home (or Bioware) about.

[N7M]

You're right. It is a matter of perception. I don't even remember noticing any of those things, which probably means I just didn't care enough to register it while playing.
 
So seeing we agree it is all highly subjective I hope we can also agree that picking any one person's arbitrary 'limit' is silly, right?
 
Maybe it was the increase in gore and swearing other people mentioned, even if I never seem to have noticed it myself beyond maybe Jack swearing here and there. I understand in Europe they do not care so much about explicit sexual content as they do in the US.
 
But even if ME2 and ME3 had a little more swearing and gore it was still a ridiculously small amount, certainly nothing to write home (or Bioware) about.

If the next iteration increases gore or swearing it could limit appeal of the series to those that are oblivious or insensitive to the increase. Are you saying that the people that enjoyed and were comfortable with the series at previous levels of gore, sexual content, and swearing be silent and deal with it?

[Gwydden]

If the next iteration increases gore or swearing it could limit appeal of the series to those that are oblivious or insensitive to the increase. Are you saying that the people that enjoyed and were comfortable with the series at previous levels of gore, sexual content, and swearing be silent and deal with it?

First, sexual content has actually gone down. That bothers me, actually, because it went from being okay in ME1 to silly underwear scenes in ME3. But that's a separate topic altogether.

 

As I said, the increase in gore and swearing is insignificant. I don't understand what do you want them to do. A toggle is a silly idea, and demanding they make it less out there is not going to do much. Out of curiosity, do you think a character like Jack would even work if there was no swearing or if it was censored?

 

I didn't even notice the gore. I wouldn't mind it at all if it went away. I'd probably prefer it that way, even. But again, everything's so minimal I don't think you can accuse them of false advertisement. They have reduced the sexual content more than they have increased the cussing and the graphic violence.

[N7M]

First, sexual content has actually gone down. That bothers me, actually, because it went from being okay in ME1 to silly underwear scenes in ME3. But that's a separate topic altogether.

 

As I said, the increase in gore and swearing is insignificant. I don't understand what do you want them to do. A toggle is a silly idea, and demanding they make it less out there is not going to do much. Out of curiosity, do you think a character like Jack would even work if there was no swearing or if it was censored.

 

I didn't even notice the gore. I wouldn't mind it at all if it went away. I'd probably prefer it that way, even. But again, everything's so minimal I don't think you can accuse them of false advertisement. They have reduced the sexual content more than they have increased the cussing and the graphic violence.

The parts that are insignificant to you may not be so to others. For my ME experience I would prefer more gore, nudity/sex, and swearing, as long as it is contextualized with great story telling, game play and lore. It's one of the reasons I support the idea of content toggle/sliders.

[Quarian Master Race]

 Are you saying that the people that enjoyed and were comfortable with the series at previous levels of gore, sexual content, and swearing be silent and deal with it?

That would be the logical thing to do, considering that the content hasn't fundamentally changed at all. All 3 games were rated for mature audiences as far as I can remember. In fact, ME3 has far less mandatory sexual content than the previous two entries, because at no point does the plot require one to walk into a strip club. I shouldn't have to point out the obvious that all romance content is optional, and further ME3 had less explicit sex scenes than ME1 anyway.

There's hardly any "swearing" at all in these games, at least compared to the amounts typically use by analogous demographics in reality. Anyone who is offended by the extremely small amount there is despite the obvious warning labels on the box frankly needs A) learn to read or B ) stop being such an absurdist prude and get over themselves.

Gore hardly changes either. Some effects in ME3 become somewhat more detailed (in line with other graphical improvements over the series) but one is presented with body horror less than 10 minutes into the first mission of ME1 so I don't know how this crosses any objective standard that hadn't already long since been eschewed. Further, many of the gibs can only be attained by using certain (optional use) high powered weapons. If your ridiculous sensibiltes can't handle the effects of using a 39 kilogram Anti Material canon on a humanoid target, or a complete cranial evacuation resulting from a transfer of massive kinetic energy to the brain cavity, then perhaps you should use a different weapon/tactic? Or you could stop being such a sensitive baby and realize you are playing a goddamn war game....either way.

[Il Divo]

Minimal is a matter of perception, if what a person is watching is close to their limit. To approach gore specifically for example, the blood spray from head shots in ME2, as shown in the Sizzle trailer, was not in ME1. Decapitation of enemies become the norm for headshots in ME3.

 

Come to think of it, Prince of Persia: Warrior Within was a great example of this. It's a bit on the extreme end of the spectrum, but that game got ripped apart quite a bit for the style changes compared to The Sands of Time, from what I remember.

[FKA_Servo]

Come to think of it, Prince of Persia: Warrior Within was a great example of this. It's a bit on the extreme end of the spectrum, but that game got ripped apart quite a bit for the style changes compared to The Sands of Time, from what I remember.

 

Warrior Within was so dumb.

 

Relevant. A gem from back when PA was still hilarious:

 

Spoiler

[Bryan Johnson]

DLC, according to the ESRB website, is rated separately from the main game. Perhaps, Mature or AO content (gore, explicit sex, swearing) could be sold separately, if a lower rating for the primary game is important.

Ill chime back in, this is now even more expensive than the other solution. Because now you have to convince first party to allow for a free download pack (because bandwidth costs money). Or of course you could charge for this and get absolutely roasted by the public. You then need to create a seperate pipeline to filter these 2 types of content out into separate packages, one for DLC and one for main game.

 

Plus once again I have to remind people there is far more than 1 rating board in the world

https://en.wikipedia...t_rating_system

[Pasquale1234]

It's mostly that you're never going to get rid of the 'eye candy', nor is it very likely that there is going to be any sort of a toggle for it. The best you can do is just give eye candy for everybody.

Eye candy doesn't have to be comic book extreme, outlandishly gross, childish, or make the characters look ridiculous.
 

The Arrival one is an unfortunate texture as the outfits are skincolored under mesh, no one is actually naked. I agree with the rest but that's nothing a toggle can change. That needs to be adressed right from the start.

I don't quite buy that as an excuse for Arrival. If you look closely at the shading - well, the artists knew exactly what they were doing and what it looked like. And the males had opaque cups over the genitalia.

You asked what I would remove from the games, so I answered.

[N7M]

That would be the logical thing to do, considering that the content hasn't fundamentally changed at all. All 3 games were rated for mature audiences as far as I can remember. In fact, ME3 has far less mandatory sexual content than the previous two entries, because at no point does the plot require one to walk into a strip club. I shouldn't have to point out the obvious that all romance content is optional, and further ME3 had less explicit sex scenes than ME1 anyway.

There's hardly any "swearing" at all in these games, at least compared to the amounts typically use by analogous demographics in reality. Anyone who is offended by the extremely small amount there is despite the obvious warning labels on the box frankly needs A) learn to read or B ) stop being such an absurdist prude and get over themselves.

Gore hardly changes either. Some effects in ME3 become somewhat more detailed (in line with other graphical improvements over the series) but one is presented with body horror less than 10 minutes into the first mission of ME1 so I don't know how this crosses any objective standard that hadn't already long since been eschewed. Further, many of the gibs can only be attained by using certain (optional use) high powered weapons. If your ridiculous sensibiltes can't handle the effects of using a 39 kilogram Anti Material canon on a humanoid target, or a complete cranial evacuation resulting from a transfer of massive kinetic energy to the brain cavity, then perhaps you should use a different weapon/tactic? Or you could stop being such a sensitive baby and realize you are playing a goddamn war game....either way.

 

The fact there is not much gore, nudity/sex, swearing makes content control easier to manage. 

 

The most compelling argument presented against the toggle(s) has been cost of development juxtaposed with the potential increase in revenue. Yes, looking at the potential users of such a toggle(s) within the confines of the current player base it may appear to be niche and likely could be so. Yet, Mass Effect has the potential to be appealing to a much broader base than those who play M rated games. Science fiction as a genre inspires and entertains all ages from different walks of life. Yes, there could be other games developed for the various demographics. Yet, Mass Effect has name recognition and with content controls the potential to reach across many of the divides. As budgets for AAA games increase it's important to appeal to as many purchasers as possible. Why make 4 different AAA scifi games for E10+, T, M, and AO when one game with content controls could allow many across the spectrum to enjoy the game?  For this to be successful it would require awareness and a change in attitude which, admittedly, usually doesn't come easy. 

[DaemionMoadrin]

The fact there is not much gore, nudity/sex, swearing makes content control easier to manage. 

 

The most compelling argument presented against the toggle(s) has been cost of development juxtaposed with the potential increase in revenue. Yes, looking at the potential users of such a toggle(s) within the confines of the current player base it may appear to be niche and likely could be so. Yet, Mass Effect has the potential to be appealing to a much broader base than those who play M rated games. Science fiction as a genre inspires and entertains all ages from different walks of life. Yes, there could be other games developed for the various demographics. Yet, Mass Effect has name recognition and with content controls the potential to reach across many of the divides. As budgets for AAA games increase it's important to appeal to as many purchasers as possible. Why make 4 different AAA scifi games for E10+, T, M, and AO when one game with content controls could allow many across the spectrum to enjoy the game?  For this to be successful it would require awareness and a change in attitude which, admittedly, usually doesn't come easy. 

 

Because the game gets rated for the available content... so if AO is available, the game is AO... even if you could use a slider/toggle to change the content to E10+. You can't reach a new demographic this way.

[Farangbaa]

Seriously.

We are going to shoot stuff. Kill people, murder 'em dead.

I don't see how anything can be worse than that and somehow should have a toggle.

People's priorities are messed up.

[Heathen Oxman]

I don't get why someone would play a game in which one of the primary activities is killing mass quantities of people, and then be offended by swearing and the occasional butt cheek.

 

Does not compute.

[N7M]

Because the game gets rated for the available content... so if AO is available, the game is AO... even if you could use a slider/toggle to change the content to E10+. You can't reach a new demographic this way.

 

The rating should aim for mild M. AO appears to have some severe limitations currently. It's part of the reason for my advocacy for clarified and more robust ratings for the ESRB. Yes, that's North Americas standard only but it's where the game is developed and it seems the most convenient to refer rather than addressing each nations ratings system individually. I'll leave that to those who get paid to put in that much effort.

The controls are for those that 1)have an active interest in the game and have avoided it or have not allowed access to it due to content or the inability to control the content and 2) those that enjoyed the original direction of Mass Effect and would like to avoid content that has become more extreme.

[Farangbaa]

I don't get why someone would play a game in which one of the primary activities is killing mass quantities of people, and then be offended by swearing and the occasional butt cheek.
 
Does not compute.

Oh man, great minds and all that

[DaemionMoadrin]

The rating should aim for mild M. AO appears to have some severe limitations currently. It's part of the reason for my advocacy for clarified and more robust ratings for the ESRB. Yes, that's North Americas standard only but it's where the game is developed and it seems the most convenient to refer rather than addressing each nations ratings system individually. I'll leave that to those who get paid to put in that much effort.

The controls are for those that 1)have an active interest in the game and have avoided it or have not allowed access to it due to content or the inability to control the content and 2) those that enjoyed the original direction of Mass Effect and would like to avoid content that has become more extreme.

 

Why should the rating aim for mild M? Explain please.

 

An M rated game with a content control slider/toggle will keep its M rating, because the filter is optional. For people who have not been allowed access before, this would change nothing.

 

There are no such controls and most likely there never will be. Since it seems you haven't read this thread (you are repeating arguments), I'll quote my last explanation:

 

Gore filter: Tricky. You can hide persistent gore cause that's just a texture but that's as far as it goes. Exploding heads and other gruesome animations are much more difficult to hide or replace. Same is true for bodies on the ground and other parts of the map that could be classified as violent (heads on pikes etc). I don't really see a way to implement a toggle for those without actively cutting out content, which in turn would change the impression the game is trying to make. Hiding body horror stuff like the Husks, Cannibals etc is impossible.

 

Nudity filter: Difficult to do without turning serious scenes silly. Unless the writers compromise and remove dialogue from sex scenes, you can't skip them without missing out on content. A toggle would mean that you don't show T&A, which could be accomplished with different camera angles or just showing the faces ... that would "only" require to create each scene twice. As an animator I wouldn't be confident if I could get the same tone in both scenes though. Another option would be an overlay that blurs the offending body part or covers them with censor bars. This is akin to the bleep problematic and would look kinda silly and/or break immersion in a big way.

 

Language filter: This one is hard. Option 1: Record different lines. This is obviously a bad idea because it would be costly, inflate the size of the game and make it next to impossible to write good, consistent characters. (Example: Vincent and Jules from Pulp Viction are completely different people if you replace all the swearwords.) It would mean the writers would have to create characters that work the same in both versions. Personally, I can't imagine how that would work without changing the mature version first so it can be used with a toggle. At this point it would be easier to just make the censored version.

Option 2: Bleep out the offending words. You have to find the words in the game and either play a second track on top of them or stop the playback, play the bleep, jump ahead in the file and continue the playback. Then you do the same to the subtitles.

You'd have to do that for every single language seperately.

 

There are multiple, serious problems with these filters.

 

First, you need a way to determine what needs to be filtered out and what is okay. As pointed out before, there are many different rating systems worldwide, all with slightly different standards. If you don't want to use those, then you have to come up with something by yourself. What is okay? What is too much?

 

Secondly, it isn't profitable. The game would still be rated M, so it's not like you can reach a younger demographic with your toggle. How are you going to pay for all the additional work? People would need to do research, they would need to do a fair amount of coding, they might have to create new cutscenes, record new VOs and then test all of it. From a business point of view, such an investment with basically no return makes no sense.

 

Thirdly, adding such a feature makes the game more complex. I'm not saying it makes finding bugs exponentially more difficult but it introduces new factors which will have to be accounted for. So instead of testing 4 possible bugs, you'd need to test 8. It also increases the size of the game, which could mean additional discs for shipping.

 

Fourthly, do you apply the same filters for each market or do you create different ones? For example, a nudity filter wouldn't see much use in Germany while a violence filter wouldn't be used much in the US.

 

Fifthly, if such filters were possible, then why haven't they been used in games before? If there is profit to be made, if there is a demand, if it is possible... why doesn't it exist yet?

 

Sixthly, you will still run into people who aren't satisfied with the censorship, because they have different standards. You can't ever create a filter that's good enough. Example, we have a language filter in this forum and we still have an user going around and reporting people for their use of profanity. Coincidently it's someone who's very vocal in his demand for a Toggle.

 

 

Personal comments: I have zero problems with nudity and I'm still amazed at how uptight some people are. Oh noes, a nipple! Well, so what? They are just breasts. Mighty fine but not the holy grail or something to get overly excited over. Nudity doesn't need to be sexualized.

Showing violence in games is okay when it's necessary for the gameplay/story... but not if it's gratuitous.

Strong language needs to fit, too. I think so far BioWare has been very tame with the language and it didn't reflect its use in RL.

 

Having options is good, yes. But buying a mature game and then wanting to turn off the mature parts doesn't really make sense. It's like ordering a Vindaloo curry and asking the chef to not make it spicy. Why not order a mild curry in the first place then? It's bound to be better.

 

 

Conclusion: Those filters (the famed 'Toggle') would require compromises from the writers in some form (try to write dialogue when half the words are bleeped out and still deliver the same tone and context), it would require a lot of money, time and other resources to implement and there is zero reason to believe it would actually recoup any investment. Additionally it would make testing more difficult, which translates in longer times for bugfixes and patches.

I can't see any way how such a filter (except for the persistent gore one) could be truly optional without affecting the players even if they don't use the toggle.

 

Additonally you should click on "Show only BioWare posts" and read those. Several others wrote good posts, too.

[Elhanan]

Based on the past ME games, I would suggest to eliminate the Hammerhead and thermal clips vs Toggle; many item DLC packs, too. However, as specifics cannot be weighed evenly, is crafted differently, and not everything makes it to launch, the final product is separate from previous designs. This is the difference between pre-Alpha designs and launch game content.

Some may complain over content that did not make it to launch; things seen in previous demos as an example. But the final product is whole to itself. It is not considered Gold - cutting room floor material.

The new game with a Toggle uses the same budget as the remaining content. It is a valid suggestion that would enhance the gameplay for those choosing to use it, and does not affect those leaving it alone.

Hope it makes it.

[Quarian Master Race]

The rating should aim for mild M. AO appears to have some severe limitations currently. It's part of the reason for my advocacy for clarified and more robust ratings for the ESRB. Yes, that's North Americas standard only but it's where the game is developed and it seems the most convenient to refer rather than addressing each nations ratings system individually. I'll leave that to those who get paid to put in that much effort.

The controls are for those that 1)have an active interest in the game and have avoided it or have not allowed access to it due to content or the inability to control the content and 2) those that enjoyed the original direction of Mass Effect and would like to avoid content that has become more extreme.

There's no such thing as a mild M. Games are rated for the content they have, not what can be toggled off. Including a content toggle doesn't appeal to any broader demographic unless you specifically include it in your marketing that you have such a thing, and no marketing team in their right mind would waste budget on such a thing even if there were a worthwhile demand for it (there isn't in this case). Seriously, click the "show only BioWare posts" if you want a more in depth elucidation of why it is a terrible idea, because it has been repeated ad nauseam in this thread that it is logistically unfeasible, yet people don't seem to be literate or something.

For 1) That group is so infentisemally small that there is literally no reason to cater to them at the expense of meaningful content. Even the most rabid prudes in this thread all bought the games anyway, for example. 2) Makes no sense because the content hasn't become more extreme in any meaningful way. All games were rated Mature for various language and violent content. In fact the sexual content was reduced as the series went on, but the faux news type prudes asking for these features are by definition irrational by mere admission of buying Mature rated games with the expectation of juvenile content, and will continue to look for reasons to be offended no matter what BioWare does.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Based on the past ME games, I would suggest to eliminate the Hammerhead and thermal clips vs Toggle; many item DLC packs, too. However, as specifics cannot be weighed evenly, is crafted differently, and not everything makes it to launch, the final product is separate from previous designs. This is the difference between pre-Alpha designs and launch game content.

Some may complain over content that did not make it to launch; things seen in previous demos as an example. But the final product is whole to itself. It is not considered Gold - cutting room floor material.

The new game with a Toggle uses the same budget as the remaining content. It is a valid suggestion that would enhance the gameplay for those choosing to use it, and does not affect those leaving it alone.

Hope it makes it.

 

Uh, why? You don't even need anything to do that, just deinstall the DLC. Thermal clips on the other hand are an integral part of the game, if you could disable them, then the game would most likely not be playable.

 

You don't get to say it's valid, that's not your decision to make. You also really need to stop your "doesn't affect others" spiel because everyone but you knows better.

 

All that yammering about pre-alpha, alpha and launch content only confuses the issue, it has nothing to do with this.

 

I heard hope dies last... I can't wait.

[N7M]

Why should the rating aim for mild M? Explain please.

 

An M rated game with a content control slider/toggle will keep its M rating, because the filter is optional. For people who have not been allowed access before, this would change nothing.

 

There are no such controls and most likely there never will be. Since it seems you haven't read this thread (you are repeating arguments), I'll quote my last explanation:

 

 

Additonally you should click on "Show only BioWare posts" and read those. Several others wrote good posts, too.

 

It's presumptuous and, if you read the thread as you claim and recommend to others to do, it is also disingenuous to claim there never could be such controls as there are gore toggles in games from BW already.  Content, likewise, has been created separately to fill markets with different standards. Any potential toggle is about cost versus recouping that cost, which, no one here has the crystal ball to answer that definitively.

 

Why mild M? It's the rating at which the game has garnered it's current player base. 

[Chealec]

The rating should aim for mild M. AO appears to have some severe limitations currently. It's part of the reason for my advocacy for clarified and more robust ratings for the ESRB. Yes, that's North Americas standard only but it's where the game is developed and it seems the most convenient to refer rather than addressing each nations ratings system individually. I'll leave that to those who get paid to put in that much effort.

 
Why go for such a niche market as North America? 300 million Americans plus 35 million Canadians.
 
PEGI is used by 600+ million Europeans - with a some minor quirks like Germany. I think the Russian system also falls broadly in-line with PEGI - so that's another 140 million. *shrugs*

The controls are for those that 1)have an active interest in the game and have avoided it or have not allowed access to it due to content or the inability to control the content

Sliders will make no difference to the age rating so unless you're talking about making it a 13+ game (which is what 'T' equates to) you're not expanding the market that much... not that you're expanding it much anyway by making it a 'T' game; pull in some kids (13 - 16), who are actually not the main purchasers of games anyway, at the potential cost of alienating the "grown up" market? Seems like a risky strategy.

Or introduce sliders for people, who are ostensibly adults (or near as damnit), who want to tone the content down - again, I doubt that would be a huge market - unlikely to be worth the investment.

2) those that enjoyed the original direction of Mass Effect and would like to avoid content that has become more extreme.

Playing through the trilogy again atm... ME1 has the most "extreme" sex scenes, ME2 the most "extreme" language ... ME3 has the most graphic portrayal of violence (corpses, corpses, everywhere) ...

... hang on, someone is concerned about the 2 things that are were watered down in the third game but not about the one thing that became more graphic? Or did I miss something?

[AlleyD]

First, sexual content has actually gone down. That bothers me, actually, because it went from being okay in ME1 to silly underwear scenes in ME3. But that's a separate topic altogether.

 

As I said, the increase in gore and swearing is insignificant. I don't understand what do you want them to do. A toggle is a silly idea, and demanding they make it less out there is not going to do much. Out of curiosity, do you think a character like Jack would even work if there was no swearing or if it was censored?

 

I didn't even notice the gore. I wouldn't mind it at all if it went away. I'd probably prefer it that way, even. But again, everything's so minimal I don't think you can accuse them of false advertisement. They have reduced the sexual content more than they have increased the cussing and the graphic violence.

 

Jack seemed to work out in ME3 and she was "censored" as part of the narrative of her cameo with the use of the swear box riff. I cannot recall if there are any other dialogue lines where Jack swears in ME3 and she was the most controversial character as far as language went in ME, iirc

[Chealec]

...

Hope it makes it.

For MEA - it won't, it's already too late.