3411 réponses à ce sujet

[DaemionMoadrin]

It's presumptuous and, if you read the thread as you claim and recommend to others to do, it is also disingenuous to claim there never could be such controls as there are gore toggles in games from BW already.  Content, likewise, has been created separately to fill markets with different standards. Any potential toggle is about cost versus recouping that cost, which, no one here has the crystal ball to answer that definitively.

 

Why mild M? It's the rating at which the game has garnered it's current player base. 

 

Oh? There have been gore toggles? Well, what a surprise. It's not like they were mentioned in my post or anything.

 

Have you had a closer look at what exactly that toggle does? It's for persistent gore only, meaning it toggles a texture on/off that displays blood splatters on your armor. Nothing else.

Brutal finishing moves, enemies exploding in blood fountains, the "murder knife" and lots of other violent elements are still in the game.

 

I already wrote it in my post and it has been mentioned ad nauseum in this thread already: Other toggles are much, much more difficult to implement, if they are even possible in the first place.

 

So please read at least the few things recommend and get back to me about "toggles".

 

I don't need a crystal ball to see it's never going to happen. There are far too many reasons for BioWare to not do it and even if there suddendly was a market for a T rated Mass Effect, then they would just make the entire game T instead of bothering with toggles.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Jack seemed to work out in ME3 and she was "censored" as part of the narrative of her cameo with the use of the swear box riff. I cannot recall if there are any other dialogue lines where Jack swears in ME3 and she was the most controversial character as far as language went in ME, iirc

 

Jack only worked in ME3 because she censored herself and the game faded to black when she stopped doing so.

 

She wouldn't have worked in ME2 without swearing and her abrasive self.

[N7M]

There's no such thing as a mild M. 

 

That is part of the problem of the ESRB ratings. There isn't an official 'mild M' or 'extreme M' label. There is M with content descriptors that use the adjectives of "mild" and "extreme" creating a discrepancy in M content.  There shouldn't be that much wiggle room in a single rating. That ratings system needs to be tightened. 

[Elhanan]

Jack seemed to work out in ME3 and she was "censored" as part of the narrative of her cameo with the use of the swear box riff. I cannot recall if there are any other dialogue lines where Jack swears in ME3 and she was the most controversial character as far as language went in ME, iirc

Jacks swears in The Citadel DLC; once, I believe. This is much less than Aria and Vega throughout the remaing game. Zaeed also curses in both.

Edit: Other DLC may have been a part of my experience, so Vanilla removed.

This does make we wonder why Jack was toned down, as she was major offender in ME2. Perhaps those that could have used a Toggle?

[Il Divo]

The fact there is not much gore, nudity/sex, swearing makes content control easier to manage. 

 

The most compelling argument presented against the toggle(s) has been cost of development juxtaposed with the potential increase in revenue. Yes, looking at the potential users of such a toggle(s) within the confines of the current player base it may appear to be niche and likely could be so. Yet, Mass Effect has the potential to be appealing to a much broader base than those who play M rated games. Science fiction as a genre inspires and entertains all ages from different walks of life. Yes, there could be other games developed for the various demographics. Yet, Mass Effect has name recognition and with content controls the potential to reach across many of the divides. As budgets for AAA games increase it's important to appeal to as many purchasers as possible. Why make 4 different AAA scifi games for E10+, T, M, and AO when one game with content controls could allow many across the spectrum to enjoy the game?  For this to be successful it would require awareness and a change in attitude which, admittedly, usually doesn't come easy. 

 

A few things to consider here: games have tried in the past to appeal to multiple demographics. Sometimes it works, but this can also have mixed results. The essential "jack of all trades, master of none" type scenario, but much worse. In Bioware's case, they've said in the past they're after the Skyrim demographic. I enjoyed DA:I, but wasn't exactly happy with the more exploration-like parts of the game. And I'm kinda skeptical of Bioware being able to implement Avatar: the Last Airbender and Breaking Bad in the same game, just as an example.

 

That aside, it's also not as simple to design that sort of game even with a toggle. The Mass Effect trilogy for example allows the player to commit genocide, on multiple occasions. I rank that as being a greater concern than any amount of nudity/language could ever hope to compete with. How for example do you create a version of ME3 suitable for children and adults that lets players deal with the kinds of moral scenarios which Bioware is known for?

 

Lastly, and here I'm a bit less confident, but it's not 100% clear that creating E10 settings would really let Bioware reach a larger demographic. In many cases, kids are already playing M rated games without parental supervision. We'd need more info on how much attention parents actually pay to the media their kids consume. Otherwise, you're really reaching the same market, but now with a bigger resource sink.

[N7M]

Oh? There have been gore toggles? 

 

Then why claim there are no such controls then? That is what I was responding to in your post. If you meant the controls wouldn't lower the general rating on the outside of the box I would agree. However, the addition of these controls would allow the end user to lower the rating for their use. 

 

Rated M

content controls allow E10+ 

compatible with parental controls 

[DaemionMoadrin]

That is part of the problem of the ESRB ratings. There isn't an official 'mild M' or 'extreme M' label. There is M with content descriptors that use the adjectives of "mild" and "extreme" creating a discrepancy in M content.  There shouldn't be that much wiggle room in a single rating. That ratings system needs to be tightened. 

 

Eh... why? The wiggle room exists for a reason. Without it you'd need 5 times more categories, instead of M you'd have M1, M2, M3, M4 and M5. That's not going to help people making a decision, you'd still need content descriptors... which you already have now.

 

 

Jacks swears in The Citadel DLC; once, I believe. This is much less than Aria and Vega throughout the remaing game. Zaeed also curses in both.

Edit: Other DLC may have been a part of my experience, so Vanilla removed.

This does make we wonder why Jack was toned down, as she was major offender in ME2. Perhaps those that could have used a Toggle?

 

Oh ha ha, you are so funny.

 

Jack wasn't toned down, her character developed and she assumed a more maternal role as teacher of the young biotics. It is explained in the game itself why she doesn't swear anymore.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Then why claim there are no such controls then? That is what I was responding to in your post. If you meant the controls wouldn't lower the general rating on the outside of the box I would agree. However, the addition of these controls would allow the end user to lower the rating for their use. 

 

Rated M

content controls allow E10+ 

compatible with parental controls 

 

Yeah, ignore the rest of my post.

 

Do I really have to c/p everything again? The persistent gore toggle already exists and isn't even a matter of debate in this thread. A gore toggle though does not exist and will not be made. For reason that have been explained, if only you would ****** read.

[Quarian Master Race]

That is part of the problem of the ESRB ratings. There isn't an official 'mild M' or 'extreme M' label. There is M with content descriptors that use the adjectives of "mild" and "extreme" creating a discrepancy in M content. There shouldn't be that much wiggle room in a single rating. That ratings system needs to be tightened.

So essentially, your argument is based upon an imaginary rating system that is far more convoluted than the current ones while providing no tangible benefit to anyone who is literate, and seemingly is based solely on your subjective opinions of what constitutes "mild" and "extreme" content. Seems legit.

I think we need to call the ESRB, clearly they don't have enough enlightened input from random video game forum denizens with zero credentials.

[Elhanan]

For MEA - it won't, it's already too late.

Perhaps not, but hopefully will be applied in future titles. But if this is a certainty, I am puzzled why others are vocally opposed to the idea.

[N7M]

Eh... why? The wiggle room exists for a reason. Without it you'd need 5 times more categories, instead of M you'd have M1, M2, M3, M4 and M5. That's not going to help people making a decision, you'd still need content descriptors... which you already have now.

 

This is oversimplifying but to give you a general idea :

If it's a mild descriptor move it to Teen. Moderate descriptors would be the standard M. Extreme descriptors become AO.  

[Cyonan]

Based on the past ME games, I would suggest to eliminate the Hammerhead and thermal clips vs Toggle; many item DLC packs, too. However, as specifics cannot be weighed evenly, is crafted differently, and not everything makes it to launch, the final product is separate from previous designs. This is the difference between pre-Alpha designs and launch game content.

Some may complain over content that did not make it to launch; things seen in previous demos as an example. But the final product is whole to itself. It is not considered Gold - cutting room floor material.

The new game with a Toggle uses the same budget as the remaining content. It is a valid suggestion that would enhance the gameplay for those choosing to use it, and does not affect those leaving it alone.

Hope it makes it.

 

Thermal Clips are largely non negotiable, because they're the ammo system for our weapons. Without some kind of an ammo system we wouldn't have guns in the first place. The only thing they could do is swap it out for another system like going back to the heat mechanic(which I actually would prefer they do =P), but the work still needs to be put in.

 

We also know that the Mako is the vehicle coming back, and that it's going to be a pretty significant part of planet side exploration.

 

Also keep in mind that it's not really as simple as "include feature X at the cost of not doing feature Y". Money does play a part in it, but it's also about the people you have. These toggles are likely to require extra use of the voice actors, which aren't needed for coding the Thermal Clips.

 

When it comes to this kind of stuff I would say that asking for the toggle can be useful feedback, but saying "Just throw out the Hammerhead to give us the toggle" isn't as useful.

 

Resource allocation is best left up to the guys and girls at BioWare who know exactly whats going on over there. We're just here to tell them what we want to see, what we liked about previous games, and what we didn't like.

[Quarian Master Race]

if only you would ****** read.

I'm beginning to think they can't, at least functionally. No doubt they are capable of sounding out and ascribing definitions to some of the words or they wouldn't be responding, but there seems to be an utter lack of reading comphrension and critical thinking abilites that one should have developed at the latest in secondary school.

[Pasquale1234]

Jack wasn't toned down, her character developed and she assumed a more maternal role as teacher of the young biotics. It is explained in the game itself why she doesn't swear anymore.

You mean she grew up and started acting more like an adult than a juvenile delinquent?

Would that make it more mature?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'm beginning to think they can't, at least functionally. No doubt they are capable of sounding out and ascribing definitions to some of the words or they wouldn't be responding, but there seems to be an utter lack of reading comphrension and critical thinking abilites that one should have developed at the latest in secondary school.

Let's leave personal insults out of this. It's against the Site Rules. 

[Elhanan]

Thermal Clips are largely non negotiable, because they're the ammo system for our weapons. Without some kind of an ammo system we wouldn't have guns in the first place. The only thing they could do is swap it out for another system like going back to the heat mechanic(which I actually would prefer they do =P), but the work still needs to be put in.
 
We also know that the Mako is the vehicle coming back, and that it's going to be a pretty significant part of planet side exploration.
 
Also keep in mind that it's not really as simple as "include feature X at the cost of not doing feature Y". Money does play a part in it, but it's also about the people you have. These toggles are likely to require extra use of the voice actors, which aren't needed for coding the Thermal Clips.
 
When it comes to this kind of stuff I would say that asking for the toggle can be useful feedback, but saying "Just throw out the Hammerhead to give us the toggle" isn't as useful.
 
Resource allocation is best left up to the guys and girls at BioWare who know exactly whats going on over there. We're just here to tell them what we want to see, what we liked about previous games, and what we didn't like.

Thermals were not so bad in ME3; loathed them in ME2, and prefer cooldown. But all those listed were things I disliked, yet any one item has no attachment to another. Example is purposely obfuscated to make the point that a Toggle inclusion has no attachment to some other favored system.

Resource allocation is indeed best left up to Bioware; hope this suggestion makes it there despite opinions against it for an objective look.

[Chealec]

Perhaps not, but hopefully will be applied in future titles. But if this is a certainty, I am puzzled why others are vocally opposed to the idea.

 

Because it's a feature that they don't see the point of in any title ... ever?

 

I'm sort of inclined to agree I'm afraid... I'm not diametrically opposed to it on any kind of ideological grounds I just don't think it's something that would ever get any kind of return on investment. It's bad enough trying to make something as simple as a website work well multi-region/language (this much I know from experience) and you've not got many recoded audio tracks to muck about with (product videos is about it) in that case... all the audio in a BioWare game? Working out where the tracks have to be split to filter out swear words? Making sure they still flow smoothly back together with the silence or substitution in the track?

 

It would probably be as much work as, if not more than, adding another internationalisation set, especially considering you've got to do this for every language - so unless it's going to equate to at least a million extra sales I just can't see it flying.

[N7M]

So essentially, your argument is based upon an imaginary rating system that is far more convoluted than the current ones while providing no tangible benefit to anyone who is literate, and seemingly is based solely on your subjective opinions of what constitutes "mild" and "extreme" content. Seems legit.

I think we need to call the ESRB, clearly they don't have enough enlightened input from random video game forum denizens with zero credentials.

 

My idea of what is mild or extreme or what the current content descriptors of the ESRB ratings systems says? You seem confused and the frustration is leading you to take up personal attacks. Relax, this is a debate about toggles not your assumptions about other posters in the thread. Affix your priorities.  

[KaiserShep]

Jacks swears in The Citadel DLC; once, I believe. This is much less than Aria and Vega throughout the remaing game. Zaeed also curses in both.

Edit: Other DLC may have been a part of my experience, so Vanilla removed.

This does make we wonder why Jack was toned down, as she was major offender in ME2. Perhaps those that could have used a Toggle?

For the most part, Jack swore mostly when she was upset, like when arguing with Miranda about Cerberus' experimentation on her, or when casually talking about the horrible things she did, like when referring to the turians. 

 

Turians think they know something about a scorched-earth response. F*ck 'em. (can't really think of a better way to show disdain there)

 

But in ME3, she does say "a**holes" when the Cerberus agent is talking through everyone's omni-tools at Grissom, and uses "little sh**s" as a term of endearment for her students in Purgatory. But, like the rest of the ME2 leftovers, Jack's dialogue is not that extensive in the first place, so it's not as if she'd have a lot of opportunities to get a lot of swearing in anyway. 

[Elhanan]

Because it's a feature that they don't see the point of in any title ... ever?
 
I'm sort of inclined to agree I'm afraid... I'm not diametrically opposed to it on any kind of ideological grounds I just don't think it's something that would ever get any kind of return on investment. It's bad enough trying to make something as simple as a website work well multi-region/language (this much I know from experience) and you've not got many recoded audio tracks to muck about with (product videos is about it) in that case... all the audio in a BioWare game?
 
It would probably be as much work, if not more, than adding another internationalisation set - so unless it's going to equate to at least a million extra sales I just can't see it flying.

Which reminds me of SWTOR, where folks were asking for 3-D Flight sims instead of the rails system in place. When those that preferred the rails system were opposed to the idea of a mechanic they were never going to use, the 3-D folks inquired why not allow both groups to choose. SWTOR now has both systems.

A Toggle might be costly to implement, but if deemed cost effective by the Devs, it would allow for both groups to play as desired, or at least more so.

[Quarian Master Race]

Let's leave personal insults out of this. It's against the Site Rules.

An observation is now an insult? Most of the points being made and questions asked at this point have already been answered ad nauseaum. This feature is not logistically feasible, yet people continue to argue as if it is. Can you give a better explanation than lack of reading comprehension? The only other one I can think of would be willful ignorance, but people who bought a mature rated game expecting content aimed at children couldn't possibly have done it intentionally with the intent of later selfishly crying on the forums for wasteful features, could they? That doesn't seem very rational.

[Killroy]

Jack wasn't toned down, her character developed and she assumed a more maternal role as teacher of the young biotics. It is explained in the game itself why she doesn't swear anymore.

Those students were clearly in their mid- to late-thirties. They were taking night classes...

[Cyonan]

Thermals were not so bad in ME3; loathed them in ME2, and prefer cooldown. But all those listed were things I disliked, yet any one item has no attachment to another. Example is purposely obfuscated to make the point that a Toggle inclusion has no attachment to some other favored system.

Resource allocation is indeed best left up to Bioware; hope this suggestion makes it there despite opinions against it for an objective look.

 

Well, my point was mostly that we can't sacrifice core gameplay mechanics for an optional feature.

 

I'm not against BioWare taking a look at an optional toggle. More skeptical that it would be cost effective.

 

Of course even being a programmer and probably one of the most knowledgeable community posters when it comes to the underlying code of Mass Effect 3, I'm still not about to pretend that I know exactly how things operate at BioWare.

 

It's entirely possible that I'm wrong and this sort of thing would be cost effective for the target market that it would bring in.

[N7M]

An observation is now an insult? Most of the points being made and questions asked at this point have already been answered ad nauseaum. This feature is not logistically feasible, yet people continue to argue as if it is. Can you give a better explanation than lack of reading comprehension? The only other one I can think of would be willful ignorance, but people who bought a mature rated game expecting content aimed at children couldn't possibly have done it intentionally with the intent of later selfishly crying on the forums for wasteful features, could they? That doesn't seem very rational.

 

An observation is now an insult?

It's not an observation on the toggle. It's a personal attack and irrelevant to the toggle debate and didn't add anything to the debate but an outlet for your aggression. 

 

This feature is not logistically feasible

This isn't true. You should take your own advice and go back and read.

[Chealec]

Which reminds me of SWTOR, where folks were asking for 3-D Flight sims instead of the rails system in place. When those that preferred the rails system were opposed to the idea of a mechanic they were never going to use, the 3-D folks inquired why not allow both groups to choose. SWTOR now has both systems.

A Toggle might be costly to implement, but if deemed cost effective by the Devs, it would allow for both groups to play as desired, or at least more so.

 

There are a lot of hardcore flight-sim guys still out there and a lot of Star Wars fans... and I can almost guarantee utilising something that's already in the engine (3D movement) is a lot less work to implement than all the manual work that would be required to filter swearing. Working with natural language is an absolute PITA. That's not even taking the sex scenes into account.

 

How many people who play Mass Effect are offended by side-boob or the odd F-word? Less than the number of people that wanted 3D flight in SWTOR? Proportonally, certainly... but solid numbers *shrugs* I'd guess so.

 

My mum plays Mass Effect (bloody retired people with nothing better to do all day) - in fact she's played the whole trilogy through at least 20 times I reckon and she's pushing 70... there's not enough offensive content in the whole series for her to even bat an eyelid. Mass Effect is, in fact, granny-friendly.

 

 

aside: I bought her a Grunt bobble-head as part of her 68th birthday present ... he now lives next to her PC.