3411 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

And I'm sure we could all mention dozens of commercially and critically successful M rated games that were not sanitised for the benefit of children. Now what?

Because it seems to be a commercially and critically successful feature.

[N7M]

Any choice that involves a player actively committing cold-blooded murder and/or genocide should not escape an M rating. That goes far beyond the idea of "the cycle of life". You said swearing is a choice. But what should we call murder and genocide? Those are all choices (and messed up ones, at that).

 

This is why I love the KotOR 2 example: you have a story which allows your protagonist to manipulate a tortured young woman into falling in love with him. Then you have the ability to persuade her to sacrifice herself to kill her former master, responsible for committing genocide against her people, at which point you can rub it in her face that you were simply using her, as she dies.

 

The problem with the solution is: this becomes costly. How does Bioware get around explicit content? Let's use Mass Effect 3 as an example. Using toggles, redesign ME3 to retain all its narrative elements and be suitable for a 10 year old. How do you deal with Thane's death? The Quarian-Geth conflict? Shooting Mordin? Cut-scenes are regarded as among the most expensive resource hogs in gaming. Unless the solution is "fade to black" in every scenario, with current resources, it's not possible to appeal to all those markets.
 

 

However dressed these choices of life and death are they explore both outcomes. The toggles are not meant to replace parents with helping youth understand the choices that are there. These toggles would, if constructed and applied in a way to reduce explicit content, give the opportunity to younger players to play with parental consent. This isn't to say that explicit content is the only aspect of Mass Effect to take into account as a parent or caregiver when allowing access to Mass Effect. These toggles would allow an adult in a position of care to make the decision free of those obstructions. This also requires trusting the developer, the ratings system and parental controls of the gaming system. 

 

If by Thane's death you mean the one at the hospital with his son delivering Thane's final thoughts. This is a scene that delves into the character of someone who had accepted their mortality and imminent death yet still felt compassion for those that live. This is a beautiful story to share. 

 

The cost seems the largest stumbling block. There is no single solution to managing explicit content in a toggle scenario. To make these toggles work would require inspired design to make as seamless as possible for all experiences. Yet, it sounds that with the budget such a thing is workable.  

[Fandango]

Because it seems to be a commercially and critically successful feature.

And again, many M rated games have done - and will continue to do - wonderfully well without any such feature. Now what?

[Chealec]

And yet, it was used and modified to make the entire game more immersive. Context is helpful.

... and as I stated - Epic made the engine; BioWare didn't... so yes, context is helpful, thank you for proving my point by only quoting part of what I stated to try and refute that bit of it... without actually refuting the point I was making.

 

BioWare are sort of like great interior designers, they can do all the fixtures and fittings, maybe move the odd non-load-bearing wall around, do attic conversions - they don't build houses. Epic, who made the Unreal engine are architects, they deal with stresses, sanitation and the myriad other tedious things that ensure that a building works and stays standing.

 

You want to add another couple of stories onto a house - who do you need to talk to, the interior designers or the architects?

 

 

 

The feature you want was put into the Unreal engine by the people that made the Unreal engine - if you want something like this in Frostbite, take it up with Digital Illusions.

[nici2412]

And again, many M rated games have done - and will continue to do - wonderfully well without any such feature. Now what?

Coincidentally just today Take-Two announced that GTA 5- one of the games with the highest usage of profanity and most explicit depicition of violence (+ some nudity) - sold 54 million times. Bioware would be happy if they reach 1/10 of these sales with Mass Effect Andromeda. I don't think we have to worry about games selling poorly, because there is no children toggle.

[Il Divo]

However dressed these choices of life and death are they explore both outcomes. The toggles are not meant to replace parents with helping youth understand the choices that are there. These toggles would, if constructed and applied in a way to reduce explicit content, give the opportunity to younger players to play with parental consent. This isn't to say that explicit content is the only aspect of Mass Effect to take into account as a parent or caregiver when allowing access to Mass Effect. These toggles would allow an adult in a position of care to make the decision free of those obstructions. This also requires trusting the developer, the ratings system and parental controls of the gaming system. 

 

 

 

Even ignoring cost of implementation, Mass Effect is a video game requiring a good 20+ hours to complete for a competent adult. Video games, like other toys, are often used as a tool to free up parents to engage in other activities.

 

What you're describing here is a Mass Effect game with E10 to M toggles that still requires the parent to be present in order to walk their child through the entire experience. In other words: it's not really an E game at all. I don't see there being a large market for that.

 

 

If by Thane's death you mean the one at the hospital with his son delivering Thane's final thoughts. This is a scene that delves into the character of someone who had accepted their mortality and imminent death yet still felt compassion for those that live. This is a beautiful story to share. 

 

 

Well, more the fact that we watch him become impaled through the stomach. Or Mordin, in a pool of his own blood, crawling to stop the genophage after the PC shoots him. Or even Tali killing herself if Shepard chooses to sacrifice her people.

 

This is all where cut-scene cost becomes critical. Not to mention, the idea of there being an E version of Mass Effect which depicts suicide after committing genocide sounds more than a little questionable.   

 

 

The cost seems the largest stumbling block. There is no single solution to managing explicit content in a toggle scenario. To make these toggles work would require inspired design to make as seamless as possible for all experiences. Yet, it sounds that with the budget such a thing is workable.

 

 

With a large enough budget, anything is workable. But who would green light that kind of budget without a market to back it up? Again, cut-scenes are considered among the most expensive aspects of game design (according to Bioware during the EC). It's completely unworkable, without creating a dramatically expanded market. That goes against one of the huge selling points of E games, which don't require parents to stand next to their children for the entire experience.

 

[Elhanan]

... and as I stated - Epic made the engine; BioWare didn't... so yes, context is helpful, thank you for proving my point by only quoting part of what I stated to try and refute that bit of it... without actually refuting the point I was making.
 
BioWare are sort of like great interior designers, they can do all the fixtures and fittings, maybe move the odd non-load-bearing wall around, do attic conversions - they don't build houses. Epic, who made the Unreal engine are architects, they deal with stresses, sanitation and the myriad other tedious things that ensure that a building works and stays standing.
 
You want to add another couple of stories onto a house - who do you need to talk to, the interior designers or the architects? 
 
The feature you want was put into the Unreal engine by the people that made the Unreal engine - if you want something like this in Frostbite, take it up with Digital Illusions.

A recommended contractor?

As someone else mentioned to me, this tech may now be more readily available:

..."Microsoft obviously believed in the market value of a language toggle to support an evolutionary design approach across a flagship last generation franchise. I would not be surprised if the solutions developed were made into a tool for licensing to other studios, or even built into the core of the XBone and DirectX 12 tool kits...."

Sounds reasonable to me.

[Battlebloodmage]

Because it seems to be a commercially and critically successful feature.

I don't see the correlation. It's like saying Transformers is a commercial success because of Megan Fox. It's ridiculous to say the feature is what make it successful. You said people ignore you, but when you're being cornered and proven wrong, you ignore it and repeat the same stuffs. 

[Il Divo]

I don't see the correlation. It's like saying Transformers is a commercial success because of Megan Fox. It's ridiculous to say the feature is what make it successful. You said people ignore you, but when you're being cornered and proven wrong, you ignore it and repeat the same stuffs. 

 

We're actually seeing this a bit with Fallout 4. I've seen some fans maintain the silent protagonist is the appeal because of its massive success. Now that we're getting a Fallout game with voice-acting, we can actually see if this has any effect on their sales.

[Chealec]

A recommended contractor?

As someone else mentioned to me, this tech may now be more readily available:

..."Microsoft obviously believed in the market value of a language toggle to support an evolutionary design approach across a flagship last generation franchise. I would not be surprised if the solutions developed were made into a tool for licensing to other studios, or even built into the core of the XBone and DirectX 12 tool kits...."

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

... what exactly does that have to do with the Frostbite engine? Nothing to do with Microsoft. Since MEA is already under development using that engine it'll not be on DX12.

 

I want my Vauxhall Corsa to be capable of doing 200mph because the Lamborghini Gallardo can? That's your argument there.

[Battlebloodmage]

We're actually seeing this a bit with Fallout 4. I've seen some fans maintain the silent protagonist is the appeal because of its massive success. Now that we're getting a Fallout game with voice-acting, we can actually see if this has any effect on their sales.

Well, we'll see about that. So far, I see very few complains in comparison with the overall hype. I can't wait for the game. Personally, silent protagonists work for customed characters, but it sometimes break the immersion somewhat since the NPCs often somehow understand what you're saying sometimes even when you don't say anything as well as the passiveness of silent protagonists. It's weird how many Japanese companies use silent protagonists when they don't often have customed characters and just set characters. 

[Elhanan]

... what exactly does that have to do with the Frostbite engine? Nothing to do with Microsoft. Since MEA is already under development using that engine it'll not be on DX12.
 
I want my Vauxhall Corsa to be capable of doing 200mph because the Lamborghini Gallardo can? That's your argument there.

I no longer drive, nor make games for a living; you may have to ask another.

However, since this has been done successfully for another major franchise, perhaps Bioware would now be more willing to take a look at the feature for future games.

[Pasquale1234]

We're actually seeing this a bit with Fallout 4. I've seen some fans maintain the silent protagonist is the appeal because of its massive success. Now that we're getting a Fallout game with voice-acting, we can actually see if this has any effect on their sales.

Yes, it will be interesting to see how that all pans out - though it's always difficult to attribute relative success to any single feature. Sales figures are obviously what counts from a business perspective; overall consumer satisfaction is a different concern.

[In Exile]

Yes, it will be interesting to see how that all pans out - though it's always difficult to attribute relative success to any single feature. Sales figures are obviously what counts from a business perspective; overall consumer satisfaction is a different concern.

Absolutely. The position that FO4 illustrates anything about VO vs. No VO is as silly as the position that Skyrim or FO3 illustrated anything on the same topic.

The only benefit is that its inevitable success will end the constant references to Bestheda games as "proving" the popularity of no VO.

[Zerc]

[dragonflight288]

And again, many M rated games have done - and will continue to do - wonderfully well without any such feature. Now what?

 

And Gears of War, already successful, became even more successful because it now appealed to a wider audience. 

 

What's what is really simple.

 

Companies will make decisions based on a business plan. It's always going to be that way. If a company decides to use add a filter or a toggle because they feel it adds more customers buying their product, and then statistical analysis shows that it does, they will do so. If the filter does not add more customers, it will be taken out in future titles. 

 

As such, oppose a filter or not, potential profit will dictate what companies do, and if they feel that such a toggle is viable and can work, and the potential gains are greater than the losses, they will likely do it. 

 

And those who want the violence, the strong language, the graphics and all other aspects of mature content, they can have it, and those who want to reduce it, for many reasons of their own, can also do so, and if both buy the game rather than just one, profit goes up for the company. 

 

Profit, my good man, and money, makes the world go round, no matter how much we delude ourselves otherwise. 

[Battlebloodmage]

And Gears of War, already successful, became a nano bit more successful because it now appealed to a tiny bit more audience. 

 

What's what is really simple.

 

Companies will make decisions based on a business plan. It's always going to be that way. If a company decides to use add a filter or a toggle because they feel it adds more customers buying their product, and then statistical analysis shows that it does, they will do so. If the filter does not add more customers, it will be taken out in future titles. 

 

As such, oppose a filter or not, potential profit will dictate what companies do, and if they feel that such a toggle is viable and can work, and the potential gains are greater than the losses, they will likely do it. 

 

And those who want the violence, the strong language, the graphics and all other aspects of mature content, they can have it, and those who want to reduce it, for many reasons of their own, can also do so, and if both buy the game rather than just one, profit goes up for the company. 

 

Profit, my good man, and money, makes the world go round, no matter how much we delude ourselves otherwise. 

I agree, 5 people must be very happy with the toggle.

[goishen]

And Gears of War, already successful, became even more successful because it now appealed to a wider audience. 

 

What's what is really simple.

 

Companies will make decisions based on a business plan. It's always going to be that way. If a company decides to use add a filter or a toggle because they feel it adds more customers buying their product, and then statistical analysis shows that it does, they will do so. If the filter does not add more customers, it will be taken out in future titles. 

 

As such, oppose a filter or not, potential profit will dictate what companies do, and if they feel that such a toggle is viable and can work, and the potential gains are greater than the losses, they will likely do it. 

 

And those who want the violence, the strong language, the graphics and all other aspects of mature content, they can have it, and those who want to reduce it, for many reasons of their own, can also do so, and if both buy the game rather than just one, profit goes up for the company. 

 

Profit, my good man, and money, makes the world go round, no matter how much we delude ourselves otherwise. 

 

 

Right, but take TWD (the TV show).   That has some extremely adult themed scenes.  Although they were kind'a hidden, they were there if you looked for them.   And that show is one of AMC's top earners. 

[Lady Artifice]

-Snip-

 

 

I appreciate some of the points you made here. I might be able to respond later on, but right now I've decided that I need to take a break from this discussion. The whole thing makes me a little angry and damages my ability to debate about it. 

 

Long story short, I think this happens too often. This concept that because these writers are making a product we intend to buy, and because they do so at the behest of a company and in a collaborative environment, they are no longer beholden or entitled to artistic integrity. This toggle idea gets under my skin almost as much as the request for a "gay on/off" toggle did. Not because of any intent that I assume is a factor on the part of the requestors, but because I believe it would potentially similarly corrupt the character or story design that the writers create. 

 

I know it's not necessarily wise of me to get my hackles up over something I don't believe is ever going to happen, but there it is. 

[Sartoz]

A recommended contractor?

As someone else mentioned to me, this tech may now be more readily available:

..."Microsoft obviously believed in the market value of a language toggle to support an evolutionary design approach across a flagship last generation franchise. I would not be surprised if the solutions developed were made into a tool for licensing to other studios, or even built into the core of the XBone and DirectX 12 tool kits...."

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

                                                                          <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>

 

1. Sounds reasonable is quite a superficial reaction to support an evolutionary design approach. ME:A design, at this stage of development, is locked. No help for you there.

 

2. The language toggle you are so eager to cling to can be a simple English to French to Russian speaking languages and not a filter for prophanity. In any case, the quote proves that what you are asking must come from an architectual design and not a last moment "slap on the toggle".

[Jorji Costava]

I'm actually sympathetic to the whole notion of artistic integrity, so I'll briefly try to get a grip on what that means and why a filter for bad language might be inconsistent with that. I also apologize in advance if I'm regurgitating stuff that's been already said: Haven't had time to look through the whole conversation carefully. Here's a very loose characterization of how artistic integrity might be relevant to the present debate: A feature request is inconsistent with the integrity of a work when implementing it would be inconsistent with the thematic and/or narrative intent of the work.

 

Here's a quick example: If I request to improve the combat mechanics of ME1, for instance, this doesn't threaten the integrity of the work. Having bad shooting mechanics doesn't help Mass Effect express any of its story or thematic ideas. If the game had been constructed as a narrative about how war is hell and survival is more or less a matter of luck, things might be a bit different. To concretize this a bit, consider Spec Ops: The Line. By design, its mechanics are about as generic as possible. This is because the game is specifically trying to comment on the shooter genre as a whole. Having a whole lot of nifty and unique combat mechanics is antithetical to its purpose.

 

So what about the bad language toggle? Well, foul language is often an important part of characterization and world building. Having a character say "Hand me the keys you f**king c**ksucker!" rather than "Hand me the keys you fairy godmother!" tells us something about the character and the kind of social world he lives in. Switching off cussing would erase this and therefore be inconsistent with the narrative and thematic intent of the work, albeit in a relatively small way. If there's anything at all to the idea that media can give us what we need rather than what we want, then toggles of this sort may not be a great idea.

[Elhanan]

I'm actually sympathetic to the whole notion of artistic integrity, so I'll briefly try to get a grip on what that means and why a filter for bad language might be inconsistent with that. I also apologize in advance if I'm regurgitating stuff that's been already said: Haven't had time to look through the whole conversation carefully. Here's a very loose characterization of how artistic integrity might be relevant to the present debate: A feature request is inconsistent with the integrity of a work when implementing it would be inconsistent with the thematic and/or narrative intent of the work.
 
Here's a quick example: If I request to improve the combat mechanics of ME1, for instance, this doesn't threaten the integrity of the work. Having bad shooting mechanics doesn't help Mass Effect express any of its story or thematic ideas. If the game had been constructed as a narrative about how war is hell and survival is more or less a matter of luck, things might be a bit different. To concretize this a bit, consider Spec Ops: The Line. By design, its mechanics are about as generic as possible. This is because the game is specifically trying to comment on the shooter genre as a whole. Having a whole lot of nifty and unique combat mechanics is antithetical to its purpose.
 
So what about the bad language toggle? Well, foul language is often an important part of characterization and world building. Having a character say "Hand me the keys you f**king c**ksucker!" rather than "Hand me the keys you fairy godmother!" tells us something about the character and the kind of social world he lives in. Switching off cussing would erase this and therefore be inconsistent with the narrative and thematic intent of the work, albeit in a relatively small way. If there's anything at all to the idea that media can give us what we need rather than what we want, then toggles of this sort may not be a great idea.

Even in that example the ones affected are the Players choosing the option, as those mot using the filter may still hear the profanity. As mentioned in the article:

..."Some in the studio worried that including the filters would mean they were no longer staying true to their "creative vision," said Rod Fergusson, Epic Games' director of production. Ultimately, he said, they decided that wasn't the case and that including them had some benefits.

"Yes, in our minds the game is a better experience without filtering but it's still a great game with filtering turned on," he said. "And, at the end of the day, if these types of filters mean that a larger number of players get to experience our game then it is certainly worth the effort...."

[Caldyrvan]

AS I recall from DA:O Mods the ones with very very explicit sexual content were the ones with the highes dowload numbers ... what is that telling us ?

And how does someone find the way to ME/DA games if he/she has a problem with the low level of nudity anyway? 

[Elhanan]

AS I recall from DA:O Mods the ones with very very explicit sexual content were the ones with the highes dowload numbers ... what is that telling us ?
And how does someone find the way to ME/DA games if he/she has a problem with the low level of nudity anyway?

Because it is fairly minimal to begin with, and the stories are well written and keenly designed. As for Mods, those are not my adds for either DA or Skyrim. Tells me that Mature material is not always mature.

[Caldyrvan]

Just wanted to say, the history is full of persons and organizations (private, political or religious) who tried to censor, control nude/sexual content. They all failed. And there is nothing bad about that, we (humans) just like it.

And as you mentioned the well written stories etc. Yes they are and the level of nudity (if there is really any) is ok ... it`s the feeling when you play it, getting in the story the live of the ones in love and you want to see it at least you want to be teased.

 

Just sounds like someone who likes apples but is allergic to it ... so what get another fruit