3411 réponses à ce sujet

[Chealec]

Since he knows he is in a comic book, he knows it can just pop into and out of existence from thin air at will. 

 

As long as it's only thin air he's popping it into and out of ...

[FKA_Servo]

I see that this thread turned weird very fast.

 

It ebbs and flows.

 

Once a thread on the BSN hits 10 pages, some things are inevitable.

[DaemionMoadrin]

It ebbs and flows.

 

Once a thread on the BSN hits 10 pages, some things are inevitable.

 

Well, maybe an end like this is preferable to going in circles for another 70 pages.

[Andres Hendrix]

Or it's biological, like for example the person being asexual or demisexual.

If the person is asexual, then they would not be repulsed, they just wouldn't care. I just looked up demisexual, and I can't see why they would be repulsed, let alone to the point of wanting censorship, especially if the characters have formed a strong love relationship like Cassandra and the Inquisitor.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If the person is asexual, then they would not be repulsed, they just wouldn't care. I just looked up demisexual, and I can't see why they would be repulsed, let alone to the point of wanting censorship, especially if the characters have formed a strong love relationship like Cassandra and the Inquisitor.

There are many people of those orientations that are uncomfortable with depictions or sexual activity, particularly when it is directed at them like flirting or things saying that it is what they should be doing. Not saying they want censorship, but having the option to avoid it would be nice. Whether that be through a toggle or simply having some romances have sex be optional or even left ambiguous. Luckily Bioware, or at least the DA team, has shown an interest in doing the latter. 

[Andres Hendrix]

There are many people of those orientations that are uncomfortable with depictions or sexual activity,

I'm not one to take things at face value,  you are talking about a small minority of people (yes they do exist) who are in fact repulsed by sex, they are 'sex-repulsed'. I would find it strange that they would go far enough with a romance to get to the point of sex, because such people are not known to be attracted to other people, meaning romance should be meaningless to them as romance takes a degree of attraction to be romance. Even their friendships, are hindered by their lack of attraction, but they can still have them, and many if not all Bioware games have the friendship route instead. For instance, my Inquisitor is not gay but he is friends with Dorian. I think that the people, who are actually calling for censorship, as I said, suffer from a trauma, or they want their beliefs to be hoisted onto other people. Also you should stop calling this censorship simple, because a Bioware employee has already said that it is A) Not as simple as you think B )Would cost Bioware money and time that will end up being an expense instead of turning a profit. I should add that sex, has only ever been ambiguous in Bioware games, it is usually implied and not thoroughly depicted. For example, Cassandra's scene cuts to black and she and the Inquisitor are later shown lying naked together, one only sees their top halfs. The act itself is not shown, it is implied.

[Cyonan]

I know it's just arguing semantics, but for the record:

 

Censorship is the removal of content that is deemed inappropriate or offensive. Since the main request in this thread is a toggle to allow the user to choose, that is not actually censorship. That content wasn't removed for you.

 

You turning the toggle on as an option is you as a player making a choice about how you consume certain content. Somebody else forcing the toggle to be on for you(or BioWare not giving you a toggle at all and just removing it) is censorship.

 

I know people like to throw that word around to make these suggestions seem like this big horrible thing, but they're really not even if they're likely not financially viable.

[pdusen]

Prefer the banter and dialogue; not the nudity. And watching the discharge of bodily fluids is not that appealing, in or outside the confines of the bathroom.

 

Hold on, did I miss something? Has there ever been a cutscene that showed the discharge of anything but blood?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'm not one to take things at face value,  you are talking about a small minority of people (yes they do exist) who are in fact repulsed by sex, they are 'sex-repulsed'. I would find it strange that they would go far enough with a romance to get to the point of sex, because such people are not known to be attracted to other people, meaning romance should be meaningless to them as romance takes a degree of attraction to be romance. Even their friendships, are hindered by their lack of attraction, but they can still have them, and many if not all Bioware games have the friendship route instead. For instance, my Inquisitor is not gay but he is friends with Dorian. I think that the people, who are actually calling for censorship, as I said, suffer from a trauma, or they want their beliefs to be hoisted onto other people. Also you should stop calling this censorship simple, because a Bioware employee has already said that it is A) Not as simple as you think B )Would cost Bioware money and time that will end up being an expense instead of turning a profit. I should add that sex, has only ever been ambiguous in Bioware games, it is usually implied and not thoroughly depicted. For example, Cassandra's scene cuts to black and she and the Inquisitor are later shown lying naked together, one only sees their top halfs. The act itself is not shown, it is implied.

People can develop romantic feelings for someone without wanting to have sex with them or even sexually attracted to them. Romance does not equal sex, and sex does not equal romance. Nothing is hindered, they just don't feel like getting into the other person's pants.

 

And as stated by many people, the fact that people are asking for an option, either via a toggle or a few other means said throughout this thread, means it is not censorship. It is an optional feature. You can say it is impractical, but let's call it what it is. 

[DaemionMoadrin]

I know it's just arguing semantics, but for the record:

 

Censorship is the removal of content that is deemed inappropriate or offensive. Since the main request in this thread is a toggle to allow the user to choose, that is not actually censorship. That content wasn't removed for you.

 

You turning the toggle on as an option is you as a player making a choice about how you consume certain content. Somebody else forcing the toggle to be on for you(or BioWare not giving you a toggle at all and just removing it) is censorship.

 

I know people like to throw that word around to make these suggestions seem like this big horrible thing, but they're really not even if they're likely not financially viable.

 

The censorship doesn't happen in the game you play, it happens on the desk of the writers when they are forced to change their story to accommodate a toggle. I asked people to make the experiment of changing quotes and scenes from movies and games into something "acceptable" and the result always changed the personality of the character in question. Try to rewrite Zaeed or Jack without their swearing and they'll be different people. So to implement a toggle those characters would have to be changed from the ground up so that a toggle won't alter them.

At that point it would be easier to just write the characters without the swearing and skip the toggle altogether... and voilá, censorship.

 

So far no one could tell me how they want to toggle nudity or how far a violence toggle should go in a mature game that features war. The only decent answer to the profanity filter (I still believe profanity is a misnomer) was that bleeping out would have the least impact on the game. It would only ruin the immersion but leave the game intact for everyone else. Still no answer to the financial, technical, ethical and creative problems that came up in the thread.

[Helios969]

I'd also like to interject that it is not always necessary to conduct a study to determine the economic feasibility of something.  Bioware has a very large pool of professionals with broad experiences to draw from.  People and groups with an extensive background in cost-benefit analysis (of which I am sure there are more than a few of) can relatively quickly assess something like a toggle and determine it has low value.  There are likely multiple people evaluating the pros and cons of various features.  When there's consensus in favor of some aspect then they explore further, but when they're in agreement against something it pretty much ends there.  I work in applied physics supporting engineer and research, and I have to make decisions everyday whether something is worth pursuing or not, because otherwise I'd never meet critical deadlines necessary for projects to move forward.  Bottom line, there simply is never enough time and money to accomplish everything you might like.

[N7M]

Sex and love are definitely linked and they are two very important aspects of humanity; we could even make the distinction between making love (highly emotional) and just sex (desire and pleasure). They are important for biological reasons (the conception of our children) and because of the strong emotional bonds that they create. Because of their importance, I find it very strange that people would be repulsed by them, especially the former. It is even stranger when I think of these depictions as seen in Bioware games, which usually has sex that is only implied, and the scenes show next to nothing. Not to mention the scenes can be skiped. I would think some sort of trauma, or perhaps religious restrictions would be the cause of the repulsion.  If someone has a longstanding trauma that can be triggered by these scenes, or if they have other psychological problems, they should be staying away from such mediums as mature games and movies, until they work out their problems. If the so called repulsion is based on religious grounds, then tough cookies, devlopers don't have to give special favor to such beliefs.

 

Not all those who support a filter are doing so based on repulsion. At least not a revulsion to specific contents in the game.  Some interested parties may be in it to promote a well defined marketplace in which games, such as Mass Effect, may flourish.

[Cyonan]

The censorship doesn't happen in the game you play, it happens on the desk of the writers when they are forced to change their story to accommodate a toggle. I asked people to make the experiment of changing quotes and scenes from movies and games into something "acceptable" and the result always changed the personality of the character in question. Try to rewrite Zaeed or Jack without their swearing and they'll be different people. So to implement a toggle those characters would have to be changed from the ground up so that a toggle won't alter them.

At that point it would be easier to just write the characters without the swearing and skip the toggle altogether... and voilá, censorship.

 

So far no one could tell me how they want to toggle nudity or how far a violence toggle should go in a mature game that features war. The only decent answer to the profanity filter (I still believe profanity is a misnomer) was that bleeping out would have the least impact on the game. It would only ruin the immersion but leave the game intact for everyone else. Still no answer to the financial, technical, ethical and creative problems that came up in the thread.

 

The gore toggle isn't to complex to figure out. You obviously can't remove all violence from the game and anybody suggesting or implying that on either side in this thread is utterly insane. However you can tone down things like blood splatter or head explosions.

 

The nudity one only affects very limited cutscenes in the game since it's basically just the romance scenes that do it. Alternate versions is probably the way to go, or fade to black if you have no dialogue during nudity being on screen.

 

The language toggle has been the main point of debate for this thread and pretty much any idea we're going to have has already come out, so there isn't much point in covering it.

 

There are no major technical or creative problems in this, and ethical I find to be irrelevant as not listening to fan feedback is just downright stupid as a business. I already posted my opinion about the financial problems being one of the people pointing out that it's far more involved than some people were implying it was, which is the main concern for implementing it or not.

 

I don't care about the toggle and don't officially support it but damn, you people are acting like this is some super complex problem we didn't have figured out decades ago =P

 

I would have faith in BioWare's ability to pull this off. The only question is really if it is financially viable or not, which is currently sitting at a "probably not".

[Elhanan]

Hold on, did I miss something? Has there ever been a cutscene that showed the discharge of anything but blood?

Not in Bioware games, but have read of posters describing outside bathroom antics elsewhere. As this is about explicit and excessive content, that would seem to fall in the parameters of the topic.

[KaiserShep]

The gore toggle isn't to complex to figure out. You obviously can't remove all violence from the game and anybody suggesting or implying that on either side in this thread is utterly insane. However you can tone down things like blood splatter or head explosions.

 

The funny thing about the gore toggle in Dragon Age is that it doesn't really tone down the violence at all. All it does is get rid of the ridiculous blood splatter, which was always kind of silly to look at, especially in Origins. Kill some rats in the larder and the Warden and Ser Whatshislumps are covered head to toe like they stuck them in an open blender. 

[Elhanan]

I'd also like to interject that it is not always necessary to conduct a study to determine the economic feasibility of something.  Bioware has a very large pool of professionals with broad experiences to draw from.  People and groups with an extensive background in cost-benefit analysis (of which I am sure there are more than a few of) can relatively quickly assess something like a toggle and determine it has low value.  There are likely multiple people evaluating the pros and cons of various features.  When there's consensus in favor of some aspect then they explore further, but when they're in agreement against something it pretty much ends there.  I work in applied physics supporting engineer and research, and I have to make decisions everyday whether something is worth pursuing or not, because otherwise I'd never meet critical deadlines necessary for projects to move forward.  Bottom line, there simply is never enough time and money to accomplish everything you might like.

Actually agree. However, as far as we are aware, this is not discussed among the Devs, as only Bryan has responded thus far. And I do trust Bioware far more than other gaming companies to make a fair decision.

But again, it is not only about opinions and past experiences, though that will play a part. It is about getting current data and cost analysis in which to study the relevant info. As DAI has shown, things are quite different now than they were a few years ago.

[Andres Hendrix]

People can develop romantic feelings for someone without wanting to have sex with them or even sexually attracted to them. Romance does not equal sex, and sex does not equal romance. Nothing is hindered, they just don't feel like getting into the other person's pants.

 

And as stated by many people, the fact that people are asking for an option, either via a toggle or a few other means said throughout this thread, means it is not censorship. It is an optional feature. You can say it is impractical, but let's call it what it is. 

That is not how human psychology works keeping in mind the 'types' of people who were mentioned; all that you are doing is building a foundation on sand, you think it is convenient to do so but it makes your position look weaker. The Oxford dictionary definition of censorship:

"The suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security." People are asking for censorship; no matter how benign they think it is it is still censorship.

[Chealec]

...

 

I don't care about the toggle and don't officially support it but damn, you people are acting like this is some super complex problem we didn't have figured out decades ago =P

 

I would have faith in BioWare's ability to pull this off. The only question is really if it is financially viable or not, which is currently sitting at a "probably not".

 

Not really - my point was that it's not been done in the Frostbite engine yet ... and I believe it should be more for DI to look at rather than BioWare from a technical perspective; it's their engine. The other examples of profanity filters (that affect game content) I've found were made by the companies that made the engines as well as the games whereas BioWare license the engine to make the games.

 

With the amount of dialogue in a BioWare game I'd say almost certainly not

[Andres Hendrix]

Not all those who support a filter are doing so based on repulsion. At least not a revulsion to specific contents in the game.  Some interested parties may be in it to promote a well defined marketplace in which games, such as Mass Effect, may flourish.

For this censorship, you will first have to prove that it will cause a "flourishing" in the market, and this will be based off of product utility and consumer satisfaction. Presumably the people arguing for this type of censorship do so because the inclusion of sex scenes in the game leave them less satisfied with the product (you can't get away with saying "just because!"). You need to prove that there are enough of those people that if Bioware puts the time, effort and money into the censorship, that there will be enough of an increase in sales from the aforementioned customers, that the cost put into the implementation will at least be covered, better if it turns a profit. You will also need to show that the time spent on implementation won't take too much away from other aspects of the game.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That is not how human psychology works keeping in mind the 'types' of people who were mentioned; all that you are doing is building a foundation on sand, you think it is convenient to do so but it makes your position look weaker. The Oxford dictionary definition of censorship:

"The suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security." People are asking for censorship; no matter how benign they think it is it is still censorship.

Really? So everyone who is in a loving romantic relationship that has nothing to do with sex are living a lie in thinking they are in a romantic relationship? And everyone who has sex are doing so because they have romantic feelings for each other?

 

It is not suppressing or prohibiting any parts of the game since it is optional. Something that is optional cannot be censorship. 

[HuldraDancer]

Every time I take a look at this thread this keeps coming into my head.

 

 

Okay lurker mode back on now.

[Heathen Oxman]

I'm an Ace.

 

I find sexual situations boring at best, and gag-inducing at worst.

 

I deal with this in BW games by either not pursuing romances, going after romances that do not feature sex scenes, or by getting up to get another beer while my character is getting his freak on.  Additionally, it helps me to keep in mind that 99% of the population is sexual and think that shooting DNA at each other to make babies  is a worthwhile pursuit; therefore, sex will most likely creep into popular entertainment.

 

I do not require toggles to protect my delicate sensibilities.

[Bryan Johnson]

Actually agree. However, as far as we are aware, this is not discussed among the Devs, as only Bryan has responded thus far. And I do trust Bioware far more than other gaming companies to make a fair decision.

But again, it is not only about opinions and past experiences, though that will play a part. It is about getting current data and cost analysis in which to study the relevant info. As DAI has shown, things are quite different now than they were a few years ago.

I may be the only one to response, does not mean I am the only one who has read. 

 

There is a lot of people that work here and lurk, we discuss things that happen on the forum or other medium all the time. 

 

Also as was indicated by Helios you are not going to go to the polls for every little thing. If I had to guess someone in our focus tests would have brought this up as something they wanted if there was a significant portion of the audience that actually wanted it.

 

Will we fund a poll/survey explictly for this? I see that as very unlikely. I believe the onus is on you to prove there is a market for it.

[N7M]

For this censorship, you will first have to prove that it will cause a "flourishing" in the market, and this will be based off of product utility and consumer satisfaction. Presumably the people arguing for this type of censorship do so because the inclusion of sex scenes in the game leave them less satisfied with the product (you can't get away with saying "just because!"). You need to prove that there are enough of those people that if Bioware puts the time, effort and money into the censorship, that there will be enough of an increase in sales from the aforementioned customers, that the cost put into the implementation will at least be covered, better if it turns a profit. You will also need to show that the time spent on implementation won't take too much away from other aspects of the game.

 

Or show there are conditions in the marketplace that is preventing Mass Effect from doing as well as it could. Especially when sold against games with more extreme adult content marketed as Christmas toys for children and celebrated with awards. The filter sliders are a treatment for the symptom of explicit content creep not a solution. The best the filters can do on their own is allow individual players to tailor their experience within the game. 

As for changing the marketplace, although that is outside BioWare's legislative purview it doesn't mean EA cannot bring pressure for a more austere and fair ratings system as a major game publisher.

As the fidelity of games increases and some developers keep pushing at the extreme limit of allowable content on console systems with the highest rating ("M" in the case of ESRB), there may very likely be a push for change at some point no matter if the industry is behind the change or not.  

[Andres Hendrix]

Really? So everyone who is in a loving romantic relationship that has nothing to do with sex are living a lie in thinking they are in a romantic relationship? And everyone who has sex are doing so because they have romantic feelings for each other?

 

It is not suppressing or prohibiting any parts of the game since it is optional. Something that is optional cannot be censorship. 

No read my post again, I wrote "keeping in mind the 'types' of people who were mentioned."

Self censorship is still censorship. Reread the definition, as long as the game is being altered in that way it is censorship.