3411 réponses à ce sujet

[Chealec]

...

 

As the fidelity of games increases and some developers keep pushing at the extreme limit of allowable content on console systems with the highest rating ("M" in the case of ESRB), there may very likely be a push for change at some point no matter if the industry is behind the change or not.  

 

Meh - that's been happening with films for more than 130 years and as culture moves on, as it inevitably does, the boundaries of what are deemed unacceptable shift year on year. In the UK the BBFC has been dealing with this for over 100 years, classifying film suitability in broad age brackets. I honestly can't see some boobs, swearing or gore bringing about some kind of games rating apocalypse...

 

In fact all I can see happening, as the industry continues to mature, is that more people (and businesses like Sony or Microsoft) will slowly come to accept that games are a valid medium in their own right, that they're not "just for kids" - they can have quality writing, story telling and mature content in the same way that movies can - that they can deal with the same themes, the same social insights, historical retrospect or anything else that can be dealt with in movies, in some cases dealt with better, or if not, just as well ... or as badly. Hell, I'd play a Duke Nukem style game based on Sharknado!

 

Just as movies, when artistically fitting, have become more graphic in violence (both physical and mental) and language and have dealt with ever more difficult issues such as substance abuse/addiction, rape, mental illness or torture ... or even just to make a statement (e.g. Human Centipede) - I can't see games doing anything other than following a similar evolution.

 

The 'M' rated games of today could well become the 'T' rated games of tomorrow.

[Andres Hendrix]

Or show there are conditions in the marketplace that is preventing Mass Effect from doing as well as it could. Especially when sold against games with more extreme adult content marketed as Christmas toys for children and celebrated with awards. The filter sliders are a treatment for the symptom of explicit content creep not a solution. The best the filters can do on their own is allow individual players to tailor their experience within the game. 

As for changing the marketplace, although that is outside BioWare's legislative purview it doesn't mean EA cannot bring pressure for a more austere and fair ratings system as a major game publisher.

As the fidelity of games increases and some developers keep pushing at the extreme limit of allowable content on console systems with the highest rating ("M" in the case of ESRB), there may very likely be a push for change at some point no matter if the industry is behind the change or not.  

This is tangent to what I was talking about. It seems like you are in a state of confirmation bias.

[Elhanan]

I may be the only one to response, does not mean I am the only one who has read. 
 
There is a lot of people that work here and lurk, we discuss things that happen on the forum or other medium all the time. 
 
Also as was indicated by Helios you are not going to go to the polls for every little thing. If I had to guess someone in our focus tests would have brought this up as something they wanted if there was a significant portion of the audience that actually wanted it.
 
Will we fund a poll/survey explictly for this? I see that as very unlikely. I believe the onus is on you to prove there is a market for it.

That is unlikely to happen any time soon; still am disabled and recovering from cancer treatments.

And if other Devs are reading this thread; my condolences. Goes more to indicate the regression we are as a culture, which is reinforced by the lack of actual Bioware presence due to their treatment on their own forums. Not the days of NWN1 by a long shot.

Hope the filters get a fair test.

[N7M]

Meh - that's been happening with films for more than 130 years and as culture moves on, as it inevitably does, the boundaries of what are deemed unacceptable shift year on year. In the UK the BBFC has been dealing with this for over 100 years, classifying film suitability in broad age brackets. I honestly can't see some boobs, swearing or gore bringing about some kind of games rating apocalypse...

 

In fact all I can see happening, as the industry continues to mature, is that more people (and businesses) will slowly come to accept that games are a valid medium in their own right, that they're not "just for kids" - they can have quality writing, story telling and mature content in the same way that movies can - that they can deal with the same themes, the same social insights, historical retrospect or anything else that can be dealt with in movies ... just as well ... or as badly. Hell, I'd play a Duke Nukem style game based on Sharknado!

 

Just as movies, when artistically fitting, have been more graphic in violence (both physical and mental) and language and have dealt with ever more difficult issues such as substance abuse/addiction, rape, mental illness or torture ... or even just to make a statement (e.g. Human Centipede) - I can't see games doing anything other than following a similar evolution.

 

The 'M' rated games of today could well become the 'T' rated games of tomorrow.

 

As was shown by this thread earlier, awareness can do a lot. According to some, it was the Fox News report on Mass Effect which created the future installments need for underwear in the sex scenes of ME. A slider filter to keep those undies from appearing for those that could handle it would have been great. 

It was shown on another thread that ME1 was rated PEGI 12. That seems right and sensible for the content. By the ESRB it's rated M and is in the same category with much more explicit games. The ESRB is creating a confused marketplace and a false trust in the ratings. Purchasing decisions cannot be made easily, quickly and succinctly with such a discrepancy in the M. 

You and I talked about this a bit but I wanted to study PEGI and the BBFC more before responding to your post from last Friday. 

[N7M]

This is tangent to what I was talking about. It seems like you are in a state of confirmation bias.

you certainly like to blame shift

[Chealec]

As was shown by this thread earlier, awareness can do a lot. According to some, it was the Fox News report on Mass Effect which created the future installments need for underwear in the sex scenes of ME. A slider filter to keep those undies from appearing for those that could handle it would have been great. 

It was shown on another thread that ME1 was rated PEGI 12. That seems right and sensible for the content. By the ESRB it's rated M and is in the same category with much more explicit games. The ESRB is creating a confused marketplace and a false trust in the ratings. Purchasing decisions cannot be made easily, quickly and succinctly with such a discrepancy in the M. 

You and I talked about this a bit but I wanted to study PEGI and the BBFC more before responding to your post from last Friday. 

 

Not quite; ME1 wasn't PEGI rated when released, it was retroactively applied a PEGI rating when PEGI replaced the European regional rating systems.

 

In the UK, ME1 was released as BBFC 12, ME2 and 3 were BBFC 15 rated; when moved to PEGI they all became PEGI 18. Because PEGI is a pan-European organisation it rates games as appropriate for every region within Europe; the themes in the Mass Effect series may well have pushed them into a higher age bracket in Germany (or wherever) than they were in the UK - so the PEGI rating has to reflect that.

 

So the Mass Effect series, across Europe, is now in the highest possible category rating - it could be a shedload more explicit; Europe is, generally, a lot more open-minded to boobs and bums (flick on Dutch TV after 9pm if you ever visit the Netherlands) but less forgiving of horrendous violence for the sake of horrendous violence. For instance, Manhunt 2 actually got an ESRB rating, albeit 'AO' whereas the BBFC simply banned it outright in the UK (as there were no redeeming qualities for the violence basically).

[The Heretic of Time]

Europe is, generally, a lot more open-minded to boobs and bums (flick on Dutch TV after 9pm if you ever visit The Netherlands)

It's actually after 10pm these days for soft-core porn and nudity and after midnight for the hardcore stuff.

But yeah, we are very, very, very lax in The Netherlands when it comes to sex and nudity.

[Seboist]

As was shown by this thread earlier, awareness can do a lot. According to some, it was the Fox News report on Mass Effect which created the future installments need for underwear in the sex scenes of ME. A slider filter to keep those undies from appearing for those that could handle it would have been great. 

It was shown on another thread that ME1 was rated PEGI 12. That seems right and sensible for the content. By the ESRB it's rated M and is in the same category with much more explicit games. The ESRB is creating a confused marketplace and a false trust in the ratings. Purchasing decisions cannot be made easily, quickly and succinctly with such a discrepancy in the M. 

You and I talked about this a bit but I wanted to study PEGI and the BBFC more before responding to your post from last Friday. 

 

If true, that says more about Bioware's spinelessness and lack of integrity than it does Fox News.

[N7M]

If true, that says more about Bioware's spinelessness and lack of integrity than it does Fox News.

Agreed, but it seems influences upon a product within a corporate environment are seldom so straightforward.

[AlleyD]

My personal views on Taboo language filters are that they may be a device that enables the computer gaming medium avoid getting hit with the same issues that broadcast media has had to deal with in the past. The issue I am talking about is the amount of litigation that surrounds Taboo Language. It was the most contentious issue of the 20th century in the UK and USA, and the situation will probably get worse in the 21st century (the laws that censor taboo language are being made ever tighter and the list of controlled words ever longer.)

 

The censoring of Taboo language became an issue in 1972 when a radio station called WBAI broadcast an uncensored version of George Carlin's "Things you could never say on television" .  A listener in Florida lodged a complaint against the station and court proceedings ensued raised by the FCC (FCC vs Pacifica Foundation). This case bounced through the courts for several years, concluding in 1978 with a loss for Pacifica who were fined. (The fine was later repealed in 1987.)  I don't know the full costs of the litigation, but 15 years suggests that the costs were significant.

 

The situation has gotten even tighter since. In 2003, Bono was receiving a Grammy award and exclaimed "This is really, really, ****** brilliant" and the broadcaster didn't censor the broadcast. Numerous complaints were made, and the FCC got involved. Their originally judgement was that the usage was not in the offensive context, and not subject to their controls. Two politicians in Texas challenged this and eventually got the FCC laws changed to include virtually every context of the word usage of certain words. The legislation that governs broadcast media is now the Clean Airways Act (AFAIK, but I'm not American)

 

Game development may be expensive, but even that can be eclipsed by the litigation costs that can result from this particular arena

[Caldyrvan]

Study PEGI ? really I mean seriously ? whats there to study about?  

[N7M]

Study PEGI ? really I mean seriously ? whats there to study about?

Maybe I'm taking this question too seriously in answering but I'm going to go ahead.

Making comparisons between PEGI and ESRB rated games and how PEGI relates to the BBFC are of particular interest. At a quick glance, the BBFC on it's own seems to have a well made ratings systems that is adaptable to game content. As I have little familiarity with PEGI or the BBFC more study is needed before I could say more. 

[Mcfly616]

Needs more boobs.

[AlleyD]

It's actually after 10pm these days for soft-core porn and nudity and after midnight for the hardcore stuff.

But yeah, we are very, very, very lax in The Netherlands when it comes to sex and nudity.

 

Yet, the Netherlands has the 2nd lowest rate of teenage pregnancies in the developed countries (14 births/1000) ; the worst being the USA (57 births/thousand).  Seems to be that having a more liberal attitude towards sex in media (and society as a whole) is far more beneficial than having more conservative attitudes influencing the society.

[Battlebloodmage]

Needs more boobs.

Here you go

 

[Spectr61]

Yet, the Netherlands has the 2nd lowest rate of teenage pregnancies in the developed countries (14 births/1000) ; the worst being the USA (57 births/thousand).  Seems to be that having a more liberal attitude towards sex in media (and society as a whole) is far more beneficial than having more conservative attitudes influencing the society.

(Off topic, but I interesting.)

Very true.

Interestingly, one of the players at the top of the PC leaderboards is from very near there. His wife, from the U.S., have lived there for the last 10 years before recently moving to the U.S..

When I asked her about this correlation between societal prudishness, as evinced by media restrictions, and the seemingly more liberal European model in regards to sexual freedom, she replied that in her experience, most there are much more repressed than here.

Maybe this is contributory the teen pregnancy rates?

I still like their model better.

[Caldyrvan]

Maybe I'm taking this question too seriously in answering but I'm going to go ahead.

Great you understood it wasn´t just sarkasm I was really curious.

But in the end, none of these PEGI like things are working well, you just need them cause, too many people do not know what´s good for them and to many parents do not do their job. Either they have no time, no interest or worse they do not care. So you need things like this. 

[rashie]

My personal views on Taboo language filters are that they may be a device that enables the computer gaming medium avoid getting hit with the same issues that broadcast media has had to deal with in the past. The issue I am talking about is the amount of litigation that surrounds Taboo Language. It was the most contentious issue of the 20th century in the UK and USA, and the situation will probably get worse in the 21st century (the laws that censor taboo language are being made ever tighter and the list of controlled words ever longer.)

 

The censoring of Taboo language became an issue in 1972 when a radio station called WBAI broadcast an uncensored version of George Carlin's "Things you could never say on television" .  A listener in Florida lodged a complaint against the station and court proceedings ensued raised by the FCC (FCC vs Pacifica Foundation). This case bounced through the courts for several years, concluding in 1978 with a loss for Pacifica who were fined. (The fine was later repealed in 1987.)  I don't know the full costs of the litigation, but 15 years suggests that the costs were significant.

 

The situation has gotten even tighter since. In 2003, Bono was receiving a Grammy award and exclaimed "This is really, really, ****** brilliant" and the broadcaster didn't censor the broadcast. Numerous complaints were made, and the FCC got involved. Their originally judgement was that the usage was not in the offensive context, and not subject to their controls. Two politicians in Texas challenged this and eventually got the FCC laws changed to include virtually every context of the word usage of certain words. The legislation that governs broadcast media is now the Clean Airways Act (AFAIK, but I'm not American)

 

Game development may be expensive, but even that can be eclipsed by the litigation costs that can result from this particular arena

I wouldn't say gaming is in the same spot as broadcast tv is regarding censorship, more like how much censorship is applied by laws to cable content channels like HBO, since usually the customer needs to pay for the product to get access and there already is a rating process in place. I see bad language being used on a weekly basis in both cable TV and R+ rated films without anyone batting an eye.

[Iakus]

If true, that says more about Bioware's spinelessness and lack of integrity than it does Fox News.

 

I seriously doubt a Fox News report affected anything.  Heck I'm sure most people who actually watched the report responded with "What's a Mass Effect?"

[DaemionMoadrin]

I seriously doubt a Fox News report affected anything.  Heck I'm sure most people who actually watched the report responded with "What's a Mass Effect?"

 

How would you explain the underwear scenes of ME2 and ME3 then?

[Iakus]

How would you explain the underwear scenes of ME2 and ME3 then?

 

I dunno, but the scenes were considerably longer than the ME1 ones.

 

Is the game really less for not getting to see Miranda's nipples?

[FKA_Servo]

How would you explain the underwear scenes of ME2 and ME3 then?

 

And DA2.

 

I literally can't explain it, but I don't buy that the Fox fracas was responsible for it, either. I think it's too much of a stretch. Who knows, though?

[Iakus]

And DA2.

 

I literally can't explain it, but I don't buy that the Fox fracas was responsible for it, either. I think it's too much of a stretch. Who knows, though?

Merrill is the only one with an underwear scene.  All the others had fade-to-black.

[Caldyrvan]

I dunno, but the scenes were considerably longer than the ME1 ones.
 
Is the game really less for not getting to see Miranda's nipples?

There are plenty of mods to get it done if you need it. But sometimes the things you do not see thrill you more than the plain nudity

[DaemionMoadrin]

Merrill is the only one with an underwear scene.  All the others had fade-to-black.

 

Isabel has "I'll keep all my clothes on! And my boots!" sex... fade to black.

 

I dunno, but the scenes were considerably longer than the ME1 ones.

 

Is the game really less for not getting to see Miranda's nipples?

 

Leading question, play that game with Elhanan.

 

If you depict sex or intimacy or "romance" then don't chicken out when it comes to nudity. I know of no woman who puts her bra back on after having sex and relaxing in bed. I also know of no woman who showers in her underwear.

The human body isn't something shameful that needs to be hidden, it's all natural. It isn't always about sex either.

 

Either BioWare shows a mature relationship with all that entails or they can skip it completely... because the average ME player isn't a kid anymore and delicately hinting at things because you are afraid of negative feedback from vocal minorities is just lame. I don't need to see the act itself. DA:I's Cassandra scene was a step in the right direction.