3411 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

Personally I don't believe a swear filter is feasible, and I'm iffy on it really being needed as of yet (Jack aside, Bioware does seem to be pretty good on not going too blue, language wise)

 

But options to tone down nudity and gore are, I think much more reasonable.   And doable.

 

That's essentially my stance. Part of the reason too why I feel a nudity filter is more feasible (aside from being a more prominent issue) is you're also appealing to the players who'd rather skip cut-scenes in general. And in this case, the animations tend to be more than a little awkward, imo, which I do see brought up by others.
 

[Caldyrvan]

It´s getting messy here, It´s clear the author didn´t ask to censor, just an option to toggle on or off.

But BW has an overall great feedback how their games are so they will countinue.

Building in such a toggle option is possible but will cost time and money and don´t forget EA is always pushy getting a game on the market.

So they will focus on creating more acurate breasts, not on an option to remove them. You can want it but it will not happen to many people like them.

[Chealec]

Actually - thinking about it, even Jack only really hits "angry teenager" levels of sweary - she's got a long way to go to graduate to "tradesman".

 

Had to smile when I thought about this thread whilst having a conversation with a guy at work (welder) on a smoke break - just talking about some trousers (and gaffer tape - the answer to everything that moves when it shouldn't) he'd bought to wear when on his bike (900cc Yamaha), went a little like this:

 

 

Him: "Bought some f***ing trousers - didn't f***ing last long, thought I might have to send the f***ers back. F***ing ripped right in the groin"

 

Me: "Gaffer tape?"

 

Him: "Thought about it - would f***ing stick to my leg though. Got some fabric glue, didn't f***ing realise it would dry up white and globular - on black trousers"

 

Me: *laugh* "White globular stain in the groin of your trousers? Could be fun to explain!"

 

Him: *laugh* "Yeah, I f***ing LOVE riding my bike! Got some f***ing permanent marker to cover it up, seems to work"

 

Me: "Try black nail polish? Works on tights." (people at work are used to me being a bit Goth by now)

 

 

... and people think the Witcher series has a lot of swearing ... there was no particular emphasis on the F-word in most cases, it's treated just as a word, like any other.

[Elhanan]

It´s getting messy here, It´s clear the author didn´t ask to censor, just an option to toggle on or off.
But BW has an overall great feedback how their games are so they will countinue.
Building in such a toggle option is possible but will cost time and money and don´t forget EA is always pushy getting a game on the market.
So they will focus on creating more acurate breasts, not on an option to remove them. You can want it but it will not happen to many people like them.

While it does not seem to be among cRPG's currently, there is a call for such filters in other games, apps, etc. Seemingly MMO's desire them for chat functions, and they are becoming common place in other forms of entertainment.

[Chealec]

Relevant to MMOs using text-chat rather than Mass Effect (though it dates back to 2008):

http://blog.codingho...rsing-bad-idea/

 

Many MMOs had filtering in-place by default in text-chat but that's actually slowly being phased out rather than the other way around (going from always-on to being toggles)... while games like Hearthstone bit the bullet and simply prevented anyone from actually chatting via text and only allow you to choose stock responses because filtering text chat is impossible to get right and easy to circumvent: http://obfuscator.uo1.net/

 

The filter on this forum, for instance, would be utterly worthless if it wasn't for the fact that circumventing it is a breach of the Ts & Cs and can get you banned... they could just cut out the middle-bot and say offensive language can get you banned. Still, I suppose the filter lets you know which bloody (a mild swear word in the UK) words you can't fecking (a minor expletive in Ireland) use.

 

So we can all safely ignore MMOs and text chat going forward - they're a non-argument, utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand.

[FKA_Servo]

I did not read the full thread but yes, do not, I repeat, do not cut back on explicit content. Do your worst, Bioware, I'll guarantee that it'll still be just a small fraction of all the nasty, devious things I'd love to see in an rpg made for mature audience. Don't hold back. Check out what Witcher 3 did and take it to the next level.

 

This is just an argument in favor of robust modding tools, if you ask me. There are niche communities in the TES modding world that are horrifying.

 

Everyone's happy.

[AlanC9]

Sorry i didn´t thought of this option, but that´s not the point. Let it be simple.

Just messin with ya. I didn't get the point of the question, though. Different times of day tend to have different viewing demographics, yep.

[Iakus]

Meaning that they're merely feasible, or that they should be done?

A little of both.  We have seen gore filters already, and "press a button to skip ahead" sex scenes as well as "you don't need sex to continue" romances.  And given gore and nudity do in fact make some people uncomfortable (for whatever reason) I think such features do serve a purpose.

[Cyonan]

If you boiled it down to all 3 costing the same, then you'd assume it would come down to demand as well as vision.

 

I'd argue the vision didn't really change, just the exposition of it. If starbrat and his rainbow endings had been consigned to a trash can(oh how i would have loved that) somewhere then i'd agree with you. As things stand i still think they would have every right to go we don't want the vision of the game world whitewashed.

 

In general if we're talking about a feature on par with a content filter, it's not likely to be highly important to the overall vision of the game. My point was that saying cost isn't much of an argument to not include it if it's a feature that is high in demand, because everything in the game essentially costs you not being able to add something else.

 

I find it curious that you argue they shouldn't include such a filter because it's against the artistic vision but yet also claim that you would have loved if they changed the ending to ME3 entirely. Does artistic vision become less important when it's something that you personally do not like?

 

In either case, people seem to forget that BioWare is not just artists but also a business.

[Iakus]

 

With gore though, how do you approach something like that corridor in the underbelly of the Citadel near the end of ME3 without lessening the impact? Or are you only referring to blood filters in combat (which basically have to be in place for some countries)?

 

Mainly I'm talking about combat, given that's an important aspect of Mass Effect, Dragon Age, and most games in general.  A certain amount of violence is going to happen, obviously.  But do we really need fountains of gore or exploding heads?

 

As to environmental effects, I'd just ask the developers to keep it in the realm of good taste.  Just how much gore do we really need for "atmosphere"?

 

I can't really comment on the specific example given, as I have other things going through my mind when that scene comes up   

[Lady Artifice]

It´s getting messy here, It´s clear the author didn´t ask to censor, just an option to toggle on or off.

But BW has an overall great feedback how their games are so they will countinue.

Building in such a toggle option is possible but will cost time and money and don´t forget EA is always pushy getting a game on the market.

So they will focus on creating more acurate breasts, not on an option to remove them. You can want it but it will not happen to many people like them.

 

I think I follow your tv show comparison, but I'm not sure. I think you're saying that "if we don't take issue with the censorship that occurs on most cable television, particularly during the times children might be watching, why would we take issue with this?" Would that be a correct interpretation?

 

The issue there, is that some of us do take issue with that censorship, or at least, we think the lack of some of that content might damage story of characterization. Not nudity, necessarily, but the example I gave was the film Thinner. When it shows on television, it shows in a censored version. The censored version changes some of the character introductions to the point that they might as well not be there at all. The woman who is introduced by sexily posing for the main character and then making a rude gesture at him, now just poses sexily. This completely damages the effectiveness of her introduction and what it says about her. 

 

The OP of this thread definitely doesn't believe they're asking for censorship because they don't see it that way, but some of us are of the opinion that this would involve a form of self censorship on the part of the Devs. They would have to go through their own story and find content to cut in the toggle off version, and there's also the issue of how they would do that without falling prey to the perfectly natural to spare themselves the extra work of extra coding and just start out with a more tame version of the game than they might have otherwise made. 

[Caldyrvan]

Thanks for thinking about it, But i´m done with this topic

[wright1978]

In general if we're talking about a feature on par with a content filter, it's not likely to be highly important to the overall vision of the game. My point was that saying cost isn't much of an argument to not include it if it's a feature that is high in demand, because everything in the game essentially costs you not being able to add something else.

 

I find it curious that you argue they shouldn't include such a filter because it's against the artistic vision but yet also claim that you would have loved if they changed the ending to ME3 entirely. Does artistic vision become less important when it's something that you personally do not like?

 

In either case, people seem to forget that BioWare is not just artists but also a business.

 

I can hate the creative direction they took and wish a sudden realisation to overcome them that it was a steaming pile of horse product which they wanted to fix. That doesn't mean i don't respect they had every right to stick to such a choice.

 

It's certainly a business aspect that informs choice it but equally that doesn't mean that aspect running roughshod over artistic choices.

[Cyonan]

I can hate the creative direction they took and wish a sudden realisation to overcome them that it was a steaming pile of horse product which they wanted to fix. That doesn't mean i don't respect they had every right to stick to such a choice.

 

It's certainly a business aspect that informs choice it but equally that doesn't mean that aspect running roughshod over artistic choices.

 

The thing is that in threads like these some people act as though "artistic integrity" is all that matters(not saying you specifically, but a lot of people do).

 

Not to mention that this would be optional and the original artistic vision would remain in the game untouched.

[rashie]

I have a question. Why do we not see any nudity in any comic TV show, which are normally shown around midday/afternoon?

Because TV shows aren't delivered on demand when shown, games have always been a on demand medium and are fundamentally different.

 

As for the comparison to comic TV shows, there are a plethora of E+ rated game if that's your taste.

[AlanC9]

A little of both.  We have seen gore filters already, and "press a button to skip ahead" sex scenes as well as "you don't need sex to continue" romances.  And given gore and nudity do in fact make some people uncomfortable (for whatever reason) I think such features do serve a purpose.

Gotcha.

I don't have a problem with skippable cutscenes per se - really, all cutscenes should be skippable - but I still don't see how the player would know to skip them before seeing them. I also wouldn't want the writers to have to think about the experience that the skippers are having.

[Chealec]

Mainly I'm talking about combat, given that's an important aspect of Mass Effect, Dragon Age, and most games in general.  A certain amount of violence is going to happen, obviously.  But do we really need fountains of gore or exploding heads?

 

As to environmental effects, I'd just ask the developers to keep it in the realm of good taste.  Just how much gore do we really need for "atmosphere"?

 

I can't really comment on the specific example given, as I have other things going through my mind when that scene comes up   

 

Depends on the scene/game* - I'd say, enough to make the point ... but fair enough.

 

 

 

*Things like Moonstone on the Amiga though, just wouldn't have been the same without the ridiculous amounts of ketchup!

 

 

No prizes for guessing what's about to happen next!

 

... actually, with that game, there's a reasonable chance it would be about to crash :|

[Elhanan]

Gotcha.

I don't have a problem with skippable cutscenes per se - really, all cutscenes should be skippable - but I still don't see how the player would know to skip them before seeing them. I also wouldn't want the writers to have to think about the experience that the skippers are having.

Simply having that option would be fine with me. If those wanting a Toggle believe it would allow better control, then I could support that option.

[Elhanan]

Depends on the scene/game* - I'd say, enough to make the point ... but fair enough. 
 
*Things like Moonstone on the Amiga though, just wouldn't have been the same without the ridiculous amounts of ketchup!
 

 
No prizes for guessing what's about to happen next!
 
... actually, with that game, there's a reasonable chance it would be about to crash :|

The Dwarf evades and kneecaps the giant?

Generally, avoid assuming anything is sound advise.

[Iakus]

Gotcha.

I don't have a problem with skippable cutscenes per se - really, all cutscenes should be skippable - but I still don't see how the player would know to skip them before seeing them. I also wouldn't want the writers to have to think about the experience that the skippers are having.

Well, at that point the onus is on the player to decide whether they want to skip the scene or not I guess.  I would think that in getting an M rated game, people would investigate what went into giving the game that rating.

 

 And given DAI's conversation system was built around giving players the option to back out at any time, I'd say this is something they do think about.

[Chealec]

The Dwarf evades and kneecaps the giant?

Generally, avoid assuming anything is sound advise.

 

It's actually a knight (the sub-title was "A hard day's knight" - badumm tssssss); it was an up-to-four-player game where each of you played a knight... and generally died in one of many ridiculous and over the top ways. Being eaten by the dragon was a personal favourite...

 

... but yes, evading and kneecapping the giant blue cyclops would be one possible outcome, the game wasn't very forgiving though and your knight becoming a ketchup fountain was just as likely. Part of the appeal of the game was the OTT blood fountains, it was something you just didn't get in games at the time... especially not on things like the Megadrive or Super NES. In a way it was the GTA of its day.

 

I'll stop before I go into full "old man mode" ... kids these days, don't know the meaning of innovation in games ...

[AlleyD]

I wanted to go back to how BioWare deal with taboo language in their content and possibly get some idea of why this feature of the Unreal 3 engine wasn't included in the design of Mass Effect.

 

My understanding of GOW is limited, but from the information I have on the franchise the use of taboo language was very different than Mass Effect in that there were instances were taboo language was a feature of the ambient game play and auto dialogue and that the language toggle operated on this aspect of gameplay. I cannot recall any instances in the ambient dialogue of Mass Effect where any  taboo language was used. BioWare seemed to have chosen a more efficient strategy of not making taboo language an aspect of game play, hence the Unreal technology to filter taboo language would have been a waste of resources and needless complexity.

 

What the developers of the Unreal 3 engine taboo language filter also mentioned was that the technology did not work as well on FMV scripted content and the content had to be redeveloped from the original framing and animation of scenes. I analyzed the FMV and game play of the character with the most Taboo language use in the series: Subject Zero. I have not analyzed the between mission dialogue, concentrating on story and game play aspects of her character arc:- The recruitment and loyalty missions.

 

I'm using the definition of taboo language as codified in US law as with regards broadcast media (The Clean Airways Act 2003) for my default word choice, but I have also included a far stricter language filter that is part of the BBC code. US law regulates on 7 words, the BBC list 38 words as taboo. (IIRC)

 

In the recruitment of Subject Zero; there are 2 taboo words (US definition) and 4 (BBC). (The actual words are A-s, S--t, Da-n, Pu-sy)

In the loyalty mission, there are 5 usages of taboo words; (A--H--es), 3 precision F-bombs and an instance of the slang term for bovine bio waste 

 

The contextual use of taboo language in the Jack Character arc was certainly not gratuitous. The horrors and injustices involved in her story should more than compensate for the economical use of taboo language in that script. It is more troubling to think that a human being would have a more adverse reaction to a less than 10  words, than to the context of children being kidnapped, tortured and killed as a form of sadistic scientific experiment.

 

BioWare addressed the issue with taboo language intolerance in the character arc of Jack in ME3. Here they wrote a story line where the most taboo mouthed character had self censoring written into her cameo with a use of a swear box riff. The level of taboo language I can recall she has in the entirety of ME3 comes in the form of a casual F-bomb reaction to a tease during the party scene in the Citadel DLC

 

I haven't a total count on the series, but I reckon it is significantly less than a 100. ME trilogy had a word budget of VA in the region of several hundred thousands lines and the total gameplay time can be in excess of 100 hours. The ratio of taboo content to dialogue is tiny and far below the ratio of taboo language exposure in society and other media.

 

Also virtually all taboo word use had a form of filtering built into the design. The gamer already had full choice on how they interacted with a character and could easily avoid being exposed to the content that troubles them.

 

What more could Bioware do? One or two consumers are asking that Bioware undertake market research to investigate the facility. As a businessman myself I believe that a consumer has a right to request functions in the products; but only if they exercise more thought in what they are asking for could entail and how it could impact on the product. If an individual consumer is  presumptuous enough to claim to speak for others; represent a larger consumer demographic or have the intent of lobbying the manufacturer - the onus is on them to prove their credentials and provide some form of analysis that underpins their argument.
 

Camping out on a public forum repeatedly saying "I support this function" is not a good lobbying tactic in my experience

[Elhanan]

I can live with the stain on my record; have permanent vertigo, use a walker, do not drive, and am recovering from cancer treatments. I also type using two fingers, and do not have the required skills to pursue this more than to simply give encouragement to others.

So, Go Team Toggle!

[N7M]

If there's going to be options for censorship, I also want the option to have extremely graphic gore and sex scenes. Make it happen, Bioware!

 

Tailoring content level for personal preference is the idea for the hypothetical toggle/filters. A person with a milder taste for gore and language but enjoys graphic sex scenes could set their level of preference with the filters, for example. This would require a lot of resources to implement and is more complex than an on/off toggle as the filters could, ideally, be made scalable. Cinematic games are unique in being well situated to incorporate preferential content control that allows for variety of experience for end users. Can it be economically feasible is the BIG question. More people do need to speak up or, at least, show support by liking this topic for BioWare to take any steps towards making this happen.

[Cyonan]

Can it be economically feasible is the BIG question. More people do need to speak up or, at least, show support by liking this topic for BioWare to take any steps towards making this happen.

 

This is the main thing since the current conclusion is that it is probably not financially viable to implement this toggle, and although he is only one person of many at BioWare Brojo has shared that sentiment in this thread.

 

Some evidence that a bigger market than suggested exists for this would help greatly as well since as apprentice said, the same couple of people repeating their support for the feature is not really going to convince BioWare of anything.