3411 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

I'm sorry, but you let a single character stop you from enjoying the rest of the game, and from not playing the third?

There's barely any profanity other than a few curse words throughout the game, and pretty much all of the other characters are very tame.

I'm just amazed, and slightly appalled, at how hampered your playing of the game was. I am seriously stunned.

Not what I said; it was a major reason. Intrusive language broke the RP immersion, as well as having to police thermal clips and other game elements. And your sensibilities aside, it was a single Player problem. In ME3, I simply bench Vega, and Jack is improved; more mature. Ironic ain't it....

[Hanako Ikezawa]

This is a naive view of the situation. You're still talking about weeks, if not months of development that's necessary to get those features ready for shipping. The non-lethal ammo alone would require extensive changes to the gameplay and the story.

 

The gore toggles in DA never removed -all- of the blood and none of the violence.

 

Your idea for the nudity and language issues is BioWare censoring itself? Where's the toggle in this? How would a player even know which dialogue path would lead to non-offensive language?

And yet unlike the toggle, there would be benefits to the game as a result as well rather than just cutting things. Or is roleplayability suddenly a bad thing in roleplaying games? 

 

And other games on Frostbite have barely any or no blood when characters die, so again the pieces are there. 

 

No more than they already have by doing exactly those things before. I'm not offering a toggle, I'm offering ideas where people who want this stuff can have it and people who don't won't have to. 

Similar to DA:I, where if you pick more diplomatic responses, it won't come up and if they choose more aggressive responses, they do.

 

This part, the language. The assurance of a dialogue path in which profane language (setting aside the difficulty of how subjective "profane" can be, and where to draw the cultural and antiquity related line here) is consistently avoidable, would very probably eliminate the inclusion of any characters like Jack who are extremely prone to profanity to express their points, no?  

No. Just like they could have characters that don't swear, they could have characters that would. With Dragon Age and Mass Effect, there was a range of characters when it came to swearing from often to not at all. 

[Lady Luminous]

Not what I said; it was a major reason. Intrusive language broke the RP immersion, as well as having to police thermal clips and other game elements. And your sensibilities aside, it was a single Player problem. In ME3, I simply bench Vega, and Jack is improved; more mature. Ironic ain't it....

...In a military space game, profanity broke your immersion? Really?

[Felis Menari]

Only played ME2 a single time, but seem to recall disliking Jack's language well before the end of her mission; perhaps during the private chats one has on the Normandy. I know this was a major reason I only played it once, and did not pre-order ME3.

It is not the sound of a word that is offensive; it is the intent behind it, if the intent itself is offensive, that is.

[Elhanan]

...In a military space game, profanity broke your immersion? Really?

As others could tell you, to curse at a superior Officer would result in punishment; hence getting benched. Also not a fan of Vega trying to kill the entire squad on Mars.

And I served for seven years, so this is also based on my own experience.

[Lady Luminous]

As others could tell you, to curse at a superior Officer would result in punishment; hence getting benched. Also not a fan of Vega trying to kill the entire squad on Mars.

And I served for seven years, so this is also based on my own experience.

Huh. Well okay.

Just from various movies and media, ME is exactly the kind of game where I'd expect profanity. That's all.

[Battlebloodmage]

It is not the sound of a word that is offensive; it is the intent behind it, if the intent itself is offensive, that is

Words have no meaning. People give words meaning. It's not only the person who use the word, but also the person receiving the word. Dog in Chinese can be used as a bad insult, but in American English, it could mean cool. If a Chinese person calls you a dog as an insult, it would not be offensive to you because you don't see the word as an insult based on your cultural view. Words in the past like midget, retard, etc could be used as an insult but it could just be referring to the person. Now it's offensive because people who receive the words find it offensive. Even if they use different words or make up different words. At one point, if people use the words as both insults or simply referencing, more words would just be censored. 

[Caldyrvan]

hm ... most of the people who write here often are just defending the games as they are and as they like them.

Others who share the opinion of the OP or partially write it but not that often.

/edit: Elhanan (I was a bit rushed and wrote "The OP") is constantly posting giving no quarter ... I get the feeling this isn´t really about game content for him. Maybe a way for an outlet.

Modifié par Caldyrvan, 20 août 2015 - 07:20 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The OP is constantly posting giving no quarter ... I get the feeling this isn´t really about game content for him. Maybe a way for an outlet.

The last time the OP posted was August 7 when they thanked everyone who commented, whether in support of the idea or not. 

[Felis Menari]

@Battlebloodmage: Every word in a language is assigned a definition, and methods of proper usage. But we can twist the words in a way that alters their meaning, simply by adjusting the way we say it. It is the intent with which we speak, above all else, that could be construed as offensive (or at least, that's how it should be. Some folks get upset over some rather silly things).

[Battlebloodmage]

@Battlebloodmage: Every word in a language is assigned a definition, and methods of proper usage. But we can twist the words in a way that alters their meaning, simply by adjusting the way we say it. It is the intent with which we speak, above all else, that could be construed as offensive (or at least, that's how it should be. Some folks get upset over some rather silly things).

Is it an insult if the person doesn't understand it? There are many cases when the intention of the words were just in jest or have no bad intentions but the person who heard it become offended. For example, the N word, a white person may say it as in jest just like a black person, and he completely has no intention to use it to refer to a black person in a negative sense but a black person could get offensive over it. While the insults could be in relation to the speakers, it's up the the listeners to interpret that information.That is why I don't think a filter is necessary. People get offended by many words. Let's just say the old offensive words disappear, the new definition would become the new offensive words if people continue to use it in a negative sense. It's not something we can't stop nor we can censor all of them.

[Helios969]

As others could tell you, to curse at a superior Officer would result in punishment; hence getting benched. Also not a fan of Vega trying to kill the entire squad on Mars.

And I served for seven years, so this is also based on my own experience.

Sure, if Shepard was recruiting Alliance Marines, but he/she is assembling the dirty dozen for their unique skill set and the high risk nature of the mission.  Jack didn't ask to join, Shepard approached her.  I would have loved the option to tell her to clean up her language, just to get the F-U response followed by drop me off at the nearest spaceport if you don't like it.

[Zeroth Angel]

Bioware shouldn't do something like this.

It's silly. Their resources should be put in other areas.

[Elhanan]

Sure, if Shepard was recruiting Alliance Marines, but he/she is assembling the dirty dozen for their unique skill set and the high risk nature of the mission.  Jack didn't ask to join, Shepard approached her.  I would have loved the option to tell her to clean up her language, just to get the F-U response followed by drop me off at the nearest spaceport if you don't like it.

Was not talking about Jack, as she was not a Marine, but Vega. His continued disrespect for the uniform should have resulted in something besides doing chin-ups in the docking bay.

Jack was a foul mouthed co-ed, and should I ever re-play ME2, would likely result in her missing the trip. But I do like her a lot more in ME3, though she still wipes her nose far too often.

[In Exile]

Was not talking about Jack, as she was not a Marine, but Vega. His continued disrespect for the uniform should have resulted in something besides doing chin-ups in the docking bay.

Jack was a foul mouthed co-ed, and should I ever re-play ME2, would likely result in her missing the trip. But I do like her a lot more in ME3, though she still wipes her nose far too often.

 

Strictly speaking, Shepard kidnaps Jack in ME2. She's not really the bad person in that deal, and the profanity is pretty central to her character (as is her basically nude state of dress). This is what I mean by toggles being unworkable, and requiring the devs to avoid topics.

[Elhanan]

Strictly speaking, Shepard kidnaps Jack in ME2. She's not really the bad person in that deal, and the profanity is pretty central to her character (as is her basically nude state of dress). This is what I mean by toggles being unworkable, and requiring the devs to avoid topics.

I do not remember her attire; just those tattoos. It was her language I loathed, and did not wish to repeat the game to hear more of it.

And a Toggle would have been of a great boon for my gameplay.

[Sartoz]

  Big Snip

 

All these things are things Bioware has already done in the past, so it is doubtful they are as resource-expensive a toggle for all this would be and yet would net similar results. 

 

                                                                         <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

That may be true. However, this tweet from Chris Wynn ".. but trust me that getting the right balance of characters is Job #1 for us..." suggests a strong focus applied elsewhere... which includes the writers and cut-scene cinematics. Also, Bio is currently looking for the right Voice Actors, an indication that the story is wrapped up.

 

Anyway, any "toggle" solution must start at the design level and it's way too late for that!

 

 

Morpheus: "know what happened happened and that it could not have happened in any other way".

[pdusen]

Do not present myself as proof, but as evidence that the controls are viable. 

 

Am I alone in thinking that the biggest crime in this thread is Elhanan's constant pronoun-dropping?

[Elhanan]

Am I alone in thinking that the biggest crime in this thread is Elhanan's constant pronoun-dropping?

Grammar police and food cops are larger concerns for myself....

[Sartoz]

Am I alone in thinking that the biggest crime in this thread is Elhanan's constant pronoun-dropping?

 

                                                                         <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

Now that you mentioned it.... must be his two finger typing effort.

[Iakus]

This is a naive view of the situation. You're still talking about weeks, if not months of development that's necessary to get those features ready for shipping. The non-lethal ammo alone would require extensive changes to the gameplay and the story.

 

The gore toggles in DA never removed -all- of the blood and none of the violence.

 

Your idea for the nudity and language issues is BioWare censoring itself? Where's the toggle in this? How would a player even know which dialogue path would lead to non-offensive language?

 

Deus Ex: Human Revolution allowed for largely non-lethal playthroughs which hardly touched the gameplay, and the story not at all.  THough I do agree such items would have to be built into the game.

 

Gore toggles don't remove everything, but they do tone things down a bit

 

What was suggested for nudity is something Bioware has already done in past games.WHere were the cries of "Censorship!" then?  Is it censorship if the Warden and Alistair decide to wait?  Or when my Inquisitor and Josephine's romance culminated in... sitting side by side on the couch (fully clothed) with Josephine's head on the Inquisitor's chest?  Or if Shepard decides not to sleep with Liara in ME1 when given the opportunity?

[DaemionMoadrin]

Am I alone in thinking that the biggest crime in this thread is Elhanan's constant pronoun-dropping?

 

Nope. Quirky style aside, I think it's even worse that he says "I'm not presenting myself as A, but as another word for A." Because he isn't proof, he's evidence. *headdesk* But, I already called him out on that and he ignored it.

 

Deus Ex: Human Revolution allowed for largely non-lethal playthroughs which hardly touched the gameplay, and the story not at all.  THough I do agree such items would have to be built into the game.

 

Gore toggles don't remove everything, but they do tone things down a bit

 

What was suggested for nudity is something Bioware has already done in past games.WHere were the cries of "Censorship!" then?  Is it censorship if the Warden and Alistair decide to wait?  Or when my Inquisitor and Josephine's romance culminated in... sitting side by side on the couch (fully clothed) with Josephine's head on the Inquisitor's chest?  Or if Shepard decides not to sleep with Liara in ME1 when given the opportunity?

 

That's still naive, sorry.

 

DE:HR was created with non-lethal takedowns in mind, for most of the game you work together with the police. How do you suppose this would work in ME:A? You're on a strange new planet and hostile aliens attack. You don't know their biology but Space Magic™ prevails and you manage to stun them with your tranquilizer darts? What do you do with them then? You can't hand them over to the police, you can't take them prisoner, you can't allow them to go free again because they'd attack you again... it's not like you can vanish into the crowd there. How do you align non-lethal weapons with all those powers you have? Are you crippling yourself if you choose a biotic or tech class because you can't use powers in combat anymore? Those powers would have to be changed to allow non-lethal attacks. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Yes, that's what I said about the Gore toggles. Why do you repeat it? Persistent gore is just a texture and not really necessary to gameplay, it's mostly gratuitous. Blood effects on the enemy are necessary though, otherwise you wouldn't know that you hit them. Remember the Citadel after you took the beam up from London? How do you clean that up with a toggle without changing the setting and story?

 

Shepard deciding not to sleep with Liara doesn't change that the sex scene there exists and shows quite a lot of blue skin. You can skip romances for all three games if you wish, that doesn't change the content of the game. What exactly is your point here?

[Elhanan]

Don't evade and change the topic. Are you going to create a poll or not?
 
Btw... you might want to look into the definition of proof and evidence, could be educational.

Sure is:

http://english.stack...dence-and-proof

[Il Divo]

Instead of going back and forth about the toggle, why don't we discuss more achievable ways for making as many fans as possible happy with the level of these kinds of things? 

 

Honestly, in regards to the language toggle at least, there doesn't seem to be many viable solutions to begin with. We have a better idea of the cost. We know that the cost of implementation amplifies the more swearing there is in the game. Someone else mentioned to leave it to the modders for implementation, given the number of niche mods that exist, that strikes me as the best option.

 

And that's sort of the point here: we may not know what every last Bioware fan thinks, but what evidence we do have from Bioware's fan base who have spoken up don't seem to want this. Niche` features with a much larger fan base have been ignored by Bioware, I don't see the toggle getting a pass.

[Iakus]

 

DE:HR was created with non-lethal takedowns in mind, for most of the game you work together with the police. How do you suppose this would work in ME:A? You're on a strange new planet and hostile aliens attack. You don't know their biology but Space Magic™ prevails and you manage to stun them with your tranquilizer darts? What do you do with them then? You can't hand them over to the police, you can't take them prisoner, you can't allow them to go free again because they'd attack you again... it's not like you can vanish into the crowd there. How do you align non-lethal weapons with all those powers you have? Are you crippling yourself if you choose a biotic or tech class because you can't use powers in combat anymore? Those powers would have to be changed to allow non-lethal attacks. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Who you are working for is irrelevant.  Jensen could do lethal or nonlethal attacks regardless of who he was fighting or working with at the time.

 

And really, we space-magicked our way to another galaxy and you're going to quibble about biology? 

 

 

 

Yes, that's what I said about the Gore toggles. Why do you repeat it? Persistent gore is just a texture and not really necessary to gameplay, it's mostly gratuitous. Blood effects on the enemy are necessary though, otherwise you wouldn't know that you hit them. Remember the Citadel after you took the beam up from London? How do you clean that up with a toggle without changing the setting and story?

 

You seemed to be of the assumption that a toggle needs to remove all violence or it's pointless.  I'm simply emphasizing that it helps.

 

 

Shepard deciding not to sleep with Liara doesn't change that the sex scene there exists and shows quite a lot of blue skin. You can skip romances for all three games if you wish, that doesn't change the content of the game. What exactly is your point here?

  That's just it:  not sleeping with Liara does not break off the romance.  You can have the romance without the showing "quite a lot of blue skin".  That is what's important in this case.  Romance without sex scene.  Or, to be more specific, the nudity.