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Should BioWare make the move to "T for Teen" with Andromeda?


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#276
Brass_Buckles

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Forgive the snip, but I can answer this.   It doesn't affect it at all.  I actually knew this one off of the top of my head.

 

Back in 2012, I wrote a large FAQ for same gender relationships for ToR.  In it, a poster had received a letter from the ESRB after asking about that themselves.  I didn't have a good link to the letter though, so I did some digging.  A link to the ToR boards isn't very conclusive.   :P

 

I'm very pleased to report that nothing has changed since 2012.  I found a link talking about Tomodachi Life, and the author had written the ratings boards to ask that very question.

 

http://www.giantbomb...yway/1100-4918/

 

This is from the ESRB:

 

This is from PEGI:

 

Thanks for clearing that up.  It's good to know that they could happen in a T-rated game so at least people wouldn't miss out on that.  Then again, a lot of parents think that LGBT content is beyond the pale, and it would be utterly forbidden to their kids regardless the moment that they realized that content was present.  Sad but true.



#277
Grieving Natashina

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Thanks for clearing that up.  It's good to know that they could happen in a T-rated game so at least people wouldn't miss out on that.  Then again, a lot of parents think that LGBT content is beyond the pale, and it would be utterly forbidden to their kids regardless the moment that they realized that content was present.  Sad but true.

Well, the climate is changing.  It's gradual, but it is changing.  Even in the video game culture, and thank Athena for that.  It really helps that a lot of parents play a lot of the same games are their teenagers.  As fans, they were all pretty angry about Nintendo's move.  

 

It's also not quite the pearl-clutching content it used to be.   Folks that are against LGBT content still bug EA and BioWare, but they are finding more things to whine about get distracted by.   Over the last year, I've run into far less of the "for the children" arguments.  When folks ask for a lot of toggles, or directly ask for a lower rating, most are a little more honest about it.  They admit that it's for themselves, and not for any real/imaginary children.

 

Glad I can help.  Word of God/Word of Dev is always a handy thing to have.   :wizard:


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#278
DanAxe

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I'll argue the same goes for ToR.  Given how much the Sith Inquisitor can shock and torture people in over half of their quests as a Dark Side, which kinda becomes almost cartoonish (My thoughts: "You're wearing white after Labor Day?" Zap!, +10 DS.  "Oh, you refuse to bow low enough?"  Zap!  +10 DS) it surprises me a little that it got the rating that it did.  My guess is because there isn't very much gore/blood, and no strong language.  

 

Hahah agreed. Darkside Inquisitor is quite a twisted fellow. One of the very first missions you get is to torture a guy for information, and you can even promise him to help him if he confesses, and as soon as he does you give the kill order to the overseer :D The whole class story is filled with twisted dark choices.

 

ZAP "OOOWWW! What was that for???

"I had an itch in my fingers..."



#279
Helios969

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I'm of the opinion Bioware needs to go the other way and actually earn that "mature" rating.  And no I am not taking about boobs and head-plosions, I'm talking about mature story themes that force you to see both sides of the equation rather than presenting everything as they're the "good guys," those are the baddies, pick a side and start shooting.


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#280
Brass_Buckles

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I'm of the opinion Bioware needs to go the other way and actually earn that "mature" rating.  And no I am not taking about boobs and head-plosions, I'm talking about mature story themes that force you to see both sides of the equation rather than presenting everything as they're the "good guys," those are the baddies, pick a side and start shooting.

 

THey kind of tried to do that with mages vs. templars, but you also had to read the books and play the previous two games to really get the full story.  First game you see that mages are all right but they're not allowed to leave that tower for their entire lives. And then there's the Harrowing, which is a traumatic experience for a young person to go through.

Second game you see how easy it is for the templars to abuse their power over the mages.  But then everywhere you go, the templars are proven right:  everyone seems to be a blood mage.  In Asunder, we see that things are coming to a boil and then the mages decide enough is enough, and they part ways with the Circles.  By Inquisition everyone's tired of fighting, but no one wants to give up their side.  Still plenty of mages miss the conveniences and companionship available within the Circles, even as others revel in their freedom, and still others revel in their power and basically rampage.  Then you've got templars who genuinely wanted to protect mages, and templars who simply hate mages.  It's a complicated situation and there is no correct solution to it.  it could have been presented better, though.


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#281
Panda

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I think Bioware has plenty of grey choices in the games, but people just tend to make them black-and-white for themselves, maybe they are easier to take like that.. Choice between geth and quarians being one, I talked about this earlier and some people claimed it was very black and white decision for them, since Geth are machines and not living beings. Same with templar vs mage issue, lot of pro-mage and pro-templar folks have quite black-and-white mindset on the issue, either templars are completely evil or mages are in their minds so then the choice is lot easier for them to make of cource. To me, not so much.


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#282
Dabrikishaw

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I know this thread was made in jest, but I truly don't see the need to go for a T rating.



#283
Steelcan

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I think Bioware has plenty of grey choices in the games, but people just tend to make them black-and-white for themselves, maybe they are easier to take like that.. Choice between geth and quarians being one, I talked about this earlier and some people claimed it was very black and white decision for them, since Geth are machines and not living beings. Same with templar vs mage issue, lot of pro-mage and pro-templar folks have quite black-and-white mindset on the issue, either templars are completely evil or mages are in their minds so then the choice is lot easier for them to make of cource. To me, not so much.

BioWare has always had exceedingly hamfisted moral "dilemmas" often with easy ways out


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#284
Panda

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BioWare has always had exceedingly hamfisted moral "dilemmas" often with easy ways out

 

I have failed to see those easy ways out then.


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#285
10K

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I say no. How about those people who are offended by certain content look for another game that's more appropriate for them, why must they be catered to? M rated games broaden the scope for so many things within game content; main things being characters emotions, and personality. With a T rating there is no doubt that things as, sexuality, dialogue, and character's actions would have to be held back. I'm still a bit ticked off that they barely let Jack drop the word F.U.C.K, making her intentionally stop herself. That was awful.    



#286
God

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THey kind of tried to do that with mages vs. templars, but you also had to read the books and play the previous two games to really get the full story.  First game you see that mages are all right but they're not allowed to leave that tower for their entire lives. And then there's the Harrowing, which is a traumatic experience for a young person to go through.

Second game you see how easy it is for the templars to abuse their power over the mages.  But then everywhere you go, the templars are proven right:  everyone seems to be a blood mage.  In Asunder, we see that things are coming to a boil and then the mages decide enough is enough, and they part ways with the Circles.  By Inquisition everyone's tired of fighting, but no one wants to give up their side.  Still plenty of mages miss the conveniences and companionship available within the Circles, even as others revel in their freedom, and still others revel in their power and basically rampage.  Then you've got templars who genuinely wanted to protect mages, and templars who simply hate mages.  It's a complicated situation and there is no correct solution to it.  it could have been presented better, though.

 

In Inquisition, they definitely did this, but what about Mass Effect?

 

More often than not, there was little subtlety or nuance to the writing. ME1 and ME2 did this best, but there was a lot of problems still in this regard. Hell, the entire ending reframed my entire understanding of the Reapers and their purpose to a point where I arguably support their goals, but that's the exception in a game that had a lot of black and white moral decisions. 

 

Was Cerberus totally unjustified in what they did at Sanctuary? Or did their actions create breakthroughs that might give insight and knowledge into indoctrination and how to overcome it? The game very briefly touches on the latter, when you're talking to Joker for example afterwards (there's an option where you can say that Cerberus succeeded in their goal), but more or less approaches the game from a dichotomous right/wrong standard. It affects even the character's writing and ideology in ME3 for several characters.

 

I personally think that my biggest hope for the series is the loss of the P/R morality system, and how it might equate into complex moral or ethical conundrums. That doesn't necessarily = Mature rating, but it does lead to things that most minors aren't mentally equipped to handle. It goes back into the Virmire decision and its ramifications as an ethical dilemma on the rating system. 

 

Those are the sorts of questions that many of my colleagues have to deal with when they're deployed: Sometimes, getting the mission accomplished and the goal completed requires the deaths of Soldiers. And you have to live with knowing that you're ordering someone to go to their death. If you're in a bad enough position, you might even know that you're doing such. 

 

And there is no right answer to that. You're playing with who lives and who dies. That's really not a concept that the kinds of people who can't buy a Mature game can usually handle.


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#287
Steelcan

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I have failed to see those easy ways out then.

Make peace between the Quarians and Geth, bring the Circle Mages to Redcliffe, force all the contenders for Orlais's throne to get along, make peace between Dalish and werewolves, make Alistair and Anora joint rulers



#288
God

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Make peace between the Quarians and Geth, bring the Circle Mages to Redcliffe, force all the contenders for Orlais's throne to get along, make peace between Dalish and werewolves, make Alistair and Anora joint rulers

 

In all fairness, these aren't really what makes these lesser than a 'complex' moral or ethical issue. There are other solutions, and each of these solutions is plausible and clever in and of their own.



#289
The Ghost

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If this game becomes T-Rated, I am more than sure that the series will lose huge database of players. You will ask why? Well simple, because people enjoy the M games for several reasons, you have vast choices, violence, open sexual interaction... and there is no limits in scenes. I think that this game without the M won't survive much, because people are used with the Mature content, as the newest movies show... they enjoy vast explicit of nudity, sexual interaction and if it's interacted within the in-depth game story, this makes the game fully enjoyable for a lot of people. T Rate is not enough for a game like Mass Effect, The Witcher or Dragon Age for that matter... 



#290
Wulfram

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force all the contenders for Orlais's throne to get along


That doesn't really turn out the best solution.

#291
Steelcan

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That doesn't really turn out the best solution.

no but it does avoid you having an unpleasant choice such as allowing Celene to embrace her inner fish fillet


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#292
Panda

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Make peace between the Quarians and Geth, bring the Circle Mages to Redcliffe, force all the contenders for Orlais's throne to get along, make peace between Dalish and werewolves, make Alistair and Anora joint rulers

 

Peace between quarians and geths actually becomes option only when many requirements are met so I don't see it as easy way out. If you make all contenders of throne get along they will still plot killing each other so chaos will ensure and Inquisitor really didn't make anything than temporary peace.

 

There is some ways out, yes, but you usually has to look for them and you might not meet requirements for them. Of cource Bioware could take these ways as well and make players feel more like they are back against wall, I'd actually prefer that happening more often.



#293
Steelcan

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Peace between quarians and geths actually becomes option only when many requirements are met so I don't see it as easy way out. If you make all contenders of throne get along they will still plot killing each other so chaos will ensure and Inquisitor really didn't make anything than temporary peace.

 

There is some ways out, yes, but you usually has to look for them and you might not meet requirements for them. Of cource Bioware could take these ways as well and make players feel more like they are back against wall, I'd actually prefer that happening more often.

"so many requirements" there's a system where you need four points to get the option and 7 or 8 possible points, so no its not very hard.

 

The "make everyone work together" option completely washes your hands of any possible taint, its disgustingly unsacrificial.  Nor can you really use the epilogue argument against it, as you can't know how it will turn out.

 

 

The only real times you have to make a definite choice that I can think of, is in Orzammar for both of those decisions, and in ME with the CB (the endings are a whole other story and I firmly believe that Synthesis was meant to be the "ideal option"


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#294
Wulfram

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no but it does avoid you having an unpleasant choice such as allowing Celene to embrace her inner fish fillet


Letting people take the "easy" way out I don't think is a problem if it's not guaranteed to be the best option.

In fact it's a lot better than choices with an arbitrarily excluded middle, which are pretty common - I particularly get annoyed all the times when my options are either to "kill them" or "let them go", without "arrest them" being available, even though the circumstances make it perfectly possible. Like Shiala, for example. Or the sister in Leliana's quest in DAI.
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#295
Elhanan

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Having the developers use restraint and receive a lesser rating like T instead of M is my preference over having censored options, but am glad when the latter methods are included.

#296
KaiserShep

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Make peace between the Quarians and Geth, bring the Circle Mages to Redcliffe, force all the contenders for Orlais's throne to get along, make peace between Dalish and werewolves, make Alistair and Anora joint rulers


Technically you don't make peace between werewolves and the Dalish, since the optimal outcome in that situation is to make them human again. The other Dalish don't even see this happen, save for Zathrien, who has to die.

#297
slimgrin

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I'm of the opinion Bioware needs to go the other way and actually earn that "mature" rating.  And no I am not taking about boobs and head-plosions, I'm talking about mature story themes that force you to see both sides of the equation rather than presenting everything as they're the "good guys," those are the baddies, pick a side and start shooting.

 

And that's really hard to do. Given who the lead writer is, my expectations for story are low. Bioware has lost too many core people from the franchise.



#298
HuldraDancer

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Make peace between the Quarians and Geth, bring the Circle Mages to Redcliffe, force all the contenders for Orlais's throne to get along, make peace between Dalish and werewolves, make Alistair and Anora joint rulers

 

Don't care if that solution falls apart in the long run or not but that is my favorite route to take mostly for getting to be smug about it to them. Though imo I think that option may have been put in for people that don't have a horse in that race like myself since going by the game alone for me at least there wasn't a ton of info to make a choice on the best ruler or really why I should care I just need an ally now not to worry about the fate of Orlasi. Though that's just me.

 

I'll stop now before I get even more off topic.



#299
Former_Fiend

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Actually "rated T" should get the wider audience than "rated M," although I know parents will still buy their kids M-rated games without paying attention to what's actually in them.

Something I forgot to mention we wouldn't have in-game should the game go teen-rated:

 

Alcohol.

Also, drugs like red sand which Shepard never intentionally took (as far as I could tell) but which are a part of the background of certain areas that we visited in the series.

 

Cullen's lyrium addiction?  Would very much not have been present if DA:I were rated T.

 

Key word there being "should."

 

Wikipedia has a list of the best selling multi-platform video games of all time. The only T-rated games on the list are from the Sims series. The majority are either E-rated games like Mario, Pokemon, or Tetris, or M-rated games including GTA, Call of Duty, Battlefield, Skyrim, and Diablo 3.

 

T-rated games are like the anti-PG13. Logically they should make more money because they're available to a wider audience, but for some reason they don't sell as well as either the G/PG or R rated equivalents. 



#300
Lee80

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Why would anyone want the game to be rated for teens?  I don't see where it would benefit anything at all.  That being said as long as they keep gay content and romances I don't really care either way.  After all any potential nudity would be more hooray for boobies moments anyway.   :wacko: