836 réponses à ce sujet

[Shechinah]

They could make the "sex" scenes a bit more erotic, teasing the player.  50 Shades of Mass Effect!

So bland, unsafe and with questionable consent?

 

[Fast Jimmy]

In regards to immersion and roleplaying;

To me, it is, for the most part, little different than when I write a character for a story; I create a character, decide their appearance and then shape their identity in accordance with the setting of the story. During the story, I attempt to make decisions and select the dialogue options that make sense considering the character with possible character developments they might have undergone in mind.

I rarely, if ever, decide to do a romance solely for the sake of a romance; the romance is not the focus, it compliments the story. If I do decide to do a romance then it'll be because the romanceable character is someone who I feel works with the player character. It's for the same reason I don't let my companions' approval or disapproval dictate my decisions on major issues or those considered major to the character. On some issues and depending on the character, I may decide my character can be a bit softer in how they voice their disapproval or disagreement while on other issues they feel stronger about, they may not be.

TL:DR - To me, romance is more like watching two virtual characters with each of their own stories and character culminations have a romance that compliments the overall story and their respective characters. I may be in control of the character but when I make decisions, I try to never insert myself into their character beyond trying to look at the setting from their, cultural and biased perspective.

As a note; The inclusion of sexual interractions never made a romance to me either and I always disliked when stories attempts to tell me that a character's lust for another character means heartfelt love and that no further evidence need be provided to make the case.

Fair enough, but when you are writing your own character, you write the character they are romancing as well. As a writer, you have total control over the situation and the mindset, reactions and words of the characters.

In RPG video games, you control this only for one character. And then get said character possibly involved in a romance written and created by someone else. A character you have built and are experiencing things as is getting romantically and sexually involved with a character a Bioware writer has drafted and screen played, including sex scenes.

It's a situation of creative inequity. In a passive medium, the viewer controls none of the characters. In an editorial medium, the author controls all of the characters. In the video game medium, the player controls only lne character (usually at least), so the imbalance of control can make people feel that the NPC being romanced is little more than a sex doll and Bioware merely acting as a digital pimp in order to satisfy gamers need for "plot."

[In Exile]

Fair enough, but when you are writing your own character, you write the character they are romancing as well. As a writer, you have total control over the situation and the mindset, reactions and words of the characters.

In RPG video games, you control this only for one character. And then get said character possibly involved in a romance written and created by someone else. A character you have built and are experiencing things as is getting romantically and sexually involved with a character a Bioware writer has drafted and screen played, including sex scenes.

It's a situation of creative inequity. In a passive medium, the viewer controls none of the characters. In an editorial medium, the author controls all of the characters. In the video game medium, the player controls only lne character (usually at least), so the imbalance of control can make people feel that the NPC being romanced is little more than a sex doll and Bioware merely acting as a digital pimp in order to satisfy gamers need for "plot."

That's a problem with Bioware's execution, not with the idea of romantic content in video games. The TW series has generally shown a decent alternative for how one can do largely sappy romance (ignoring all the gratuitous sex stuff and focusing on Triss/Yenn) while materially contributing to the main plot.

For all their hatred of romance content in games, Obsidian has shown a lot of very interesting ways you can play with that content to actually explore themes (POE features a very powerful optional romance, the Visas Marr force vision thing from KoToR 2 is very surreal, and telling Sayfia in MoTB that the whole idea of her romantic feelings are caused by the screwy soul-related main plot are all excellent).

Edit: Hell, DX:HR has an excellent take on romances and the damsel in distress plot.


TL;DNR, the issue isn't romantic content. It's Bioware's execution of romantic content.

[SnakeCode]

Chris Evans is not wearing clothes here.




Does that make it nudity? Am I going to be banned from the forums for posting pornographic content? I think not.

Nudity is butt, nipple or bush. Has been since the 80's.

 

Female nipple. You can post as many pictures of men's nips as you want.

[Fast Jimmy]

That's a problem with Bioware's execution, not with the idea of romantic content in video games. The TW series has generally shown a decent alternative for how one can do largely sappy romance (ignoring all the gratuitous sex stuff and focusing on Triss/Yenn) while materially contributing to the main plot.

For all their hatred of romance content in games, Obsidian has shown a lot of very interesting ways you can play with that content to actually explore themes (POE features a very powerful optional romance, the Visas Marr force vision thing from KoToR 2 is very surreal, and telling Sayfia in MoTB that the whole idea of her romantic feelings are caused by the screwy soul-related main plot are all excellent).

Edit: Hell, DX:HR has an excellent take on romances and the damsel in distress plot.


TL;DNR, the issue isn't romantic content. It's Bioware's execution of romantic content.

The examples of TW and DE:HR just demonstrated my point - those are set, writer-created characters, not player-created ones. Arguably, The Exile is fairly set as well in terms of background and a sembelence of perosnality.

VTM:B is definitely an exception to the rule I've proposed... but the beyond-stellar writing of that game allowed the player to argue with a stop sign in great fashion, so I'm not sure how much you can really use it an as example of games in be genre in terms of what it got away with.

[Fast Jimmy]

Female nipple. You can post as many pictures of men's nips as you want.

Which is clear evidence of the oppression of the Matriarchy.

[von uber]

I'd like it where Not!Shep either has to go see the Doc about some nasty STD they've picked up, or begins to start vomiting in the morning and getting really irritable.

 

Although, given the Space Jesus vibes, they could just wave their hand and make it go away.

 

 

Hmm...

 

 

If Jesus existed, was he a walking STD drop in clinic?

"Yo Jesus, my man.."

"Greetings, Paul. May God's blessing be upon you."

"Yeah.. thanks.. God's blessing, yeah.. speaking of which, i don't suppose.."

"Have you been visiting the House of the Seven Veils again, my Disciple?"

"No no nooooo... no. Well. Maybe. Just the once."

"My dearest Paul, have you not listened to my Sermon 'Verily thou must bag it'?"

"Yeah, well.. it was 2 hours for the price of 1 and Magdalene was there and...."

"Wait, she's back in town? Quick, saddle up the Donkey!"

[themikefest]

ME1 had side boob. If a silhouette is nudity, then every James Bond movie intro is straight porn.

When watching the intro to Moonraker, breasts can be seen and not just the silhouette

[Shechinah]

Fair enough, but when you are writing your own character, you write the character they are romancing as well. As a writer, you have total control over the situation and the mindset, reactions and words of the characters.

In RPG video games, you control this only for one character. And then get said character possibly involved in a romance written and created by someone else. A character you have built and are experiencing things as is getting romantically and sexually involved with a character a Bioware writer has drafted and screen played, including sex scenes.

 

But would that be so different from, say, a collaboration?

 

Let's say, I may have written one character for a collaboration and some has written another character. The characters are written to be their own people within the rules of the setting and their interactions with each other are based upon their respective personalities and experiences. 

 

Let's then say that during the collaboration, one character flirts with the other character as befitting a trait of theirs and we find that the other character would likely respond well to the flirt. We consider the possibility of a romantic subplot and decide to attempt it. As before, we each choose our respective character's dialogue and interactions according to how said characters would act and react according to their respective personalities.

 

As a note; a sex scene needn't be focused on a sexual aspect and could very easily be focused on aspects like trust or comfort. It also be skipped entirely akin to a "fade-to-black" bit.  
 

[Pasquale1234]

Does that make it nudity? Am I going to be banned from the forums for posting pornographic content? I think not.

Nudity is butt, nipple or bush. Has been since the 80's.

If that's your criteria, I'd suggest you take another look at the sex scenes from Mass Effect.

[von uber]

When watching the intro to Moonraker, breasts can be seen and not just the silhouette

 

And Octopussy.

[Shechinah]

Arguably, The Exile is fairly set as well in terms of background and a sembelence of perosnality.

I think I'll have to personally disagree with you since I do not recall being given that impression and felt that although characters offered many interpretations of the Exile and their actions, it was ultimately up to the player to decide which interpretation of the Exile, if any, were closes. I do think they should have let the player in a bit earlier on a lot of the Exile's actions. 

 

I'll gush about the KOTOR series 'till I turn blue because I love the games so despite their flaws. KOTOR II will always have a place my gaming heart, regardless of it's most glaring flaws, for it's characters and how it tried to handle it's themes especially the theme of war. I am forever thankful they did not decide to assign lightside and darkside points to discussions about the Mandalorian wars. I loved how the Exile that I played could be portrayed in a way that let her have a lot of subtle layers to her including hints of a post-traumatic stress disorder. 

 

In my opinion; the first KOTOR is the common tropes of Star Wars; the choice of redemption, the mismatched crew and such while the second KOTOR is the deconstruction of these common tropes. I love both of them for each of their respective merits and the merits they have in common. I'm very glad that I became interested in playing them... and very grateful for the fan-patches and glitch guides people provided since they helped me to finish playing through the games    
 

[DaemionMoadrin]

Funny thing is... if you watch movies from the '80s, then you see lots of nudity and it isn't treated as something outrageous or dirty. It's just normal and somehow things have gotten more repressed since then.

[Fast Jimmy]

If that's your criteria, I'd suggest you take another look at the sex scenes from Mass Effect.

A brief glimpse of rear end silhouette is not nearly the same league as "let's just have conversations totally naked" that DA:I does. ME1 is insanely conservative in comparison.

[Shechinah]

Funny thing is... if you watch movies from the '80s, then you see lots of nudity and it isn't treated as something outrageous or dirty. It's just normal and somehow things have gotten more repressed since then.

 

There is a comic book trilogy that I very much like where full-on nudity is common but not treated as a noteworthy thing. Said nudity is seen with both male and female people whose ages vary from children to the elderly and whose bodies vary as much. It's handled very naturally and tastefully that way because it comes across as what it is; a state of undress. If the scenes had not been drawn neutral but been drawn to sexualise the more commonly attractive characters or invite disgust at the less commonly attractive people then the nudity would have come across a very different way.

 

In my opinion; sometimes it comes down to people and social taboos but sometimes it comes down to people and their handling of nudity in their works.  
 

[Pasquale1234]

A brief glimpse of rear end silhouette is not nearly the same league as "let's just have conversations totally naked" that DA:I does. ME1 is insanely conservative in comparison.

It's not exactly silhouette - certainly not in Liara's scene.

I could argue that what ME1 did show was activity that is part of the sex act - but that's not the point. You said it did not include nudity, and I beg to differ.

[Fast Jimmy]

But would that be so different from, say, a collaboration?

Let's say, I may have written one character for a collaboration and some has written another character. The characters are written to be their own people within the rules of the setting and their interactions with each other are based upon their respective personalities and experiences.

Let's then say that during the collaboration, one character flirts with the other character as befitting a trait of theirs and we find that the other character would likely respond well to the flirt. We consider the possibility of a romantic subplot and decide to attempt it. As before, we each choose our respective character's dialogue and interactions according to how said characters would act and react according to their respective personalities.

As a note; a sex scene needn't be focused on a sexual aspect and could very easily be focused on aspects like trust or comfort. It also be skipped entirely akin to a "fade-to-black" bit.

A collaboration is very different. For one, the chances are there are multiple characters you are writing that all are playing into the story world, not just one a piece (unless you are writing just a two character story - entirely possible, but definitely not a given). Secondly (and more importantly), as a collaborator, would it not be somewhat awkward if, going into the process, the co-author had already pre-written an entire character (let alone half a dozen) for the story that involved romance, a deepening relationship and a sexual encounter... all before knowing any of the characters you had planned to bring into the story? This isn't a situation where Bioware has the luxury of getting to know the motives, behavior and personality of the character the player is trying to craft and then creates romance out of an unexpected chemistry between two personalities. The romances are pre-crafted, just waiting for the player to insert their character into the romance. In that sense, the entire interaction (and, indeed, the entire relationship) is very much set and the personality of the player is nearly irrelevant, a stand in for a pre-rendered infatuation.

So I don't think it is like a collaboration. Namely because Bioware is unable to collaborate with a player's character design, but rather can only write a one-sided romance for any player to insert their character into.

[In Exile]

The examples of TW and DE:HR just demonstrated my point - those are set, writer-created characters, not player-created ones. Arguably, The Exile is fairly set as well in terms of background and a sembelence of perosnality.

VTM:B is definitely an exception to the rule I've proposed... but the beyond-stellar writing of that game allowed the player to argue with a stop sign in great fashion, so I'm not sure how much you can really use it an as example of games in be genre in terms of what it got away with.

The Exile is no more or less fixed than the Nameless One, the NWN2 MoTB PC, or the POE PC. It's the same Obsidian schtick they keep bringing out. And really any RPG - even say DAO - is equally "predefined" in the sense that to be part of the world at all, the game HAS to give you pre-existing relationships and a past. Bioware tries to run away from that a lot recently because of the backlash against DA2, but that's not really a counterargument here.

As for TW, well, I'm going to debate how much the pre-written history for Geralt actually matters to their romantic plot.

[Fast Jimmy]

It's not exactly silhouette - certainly not in Liara's scene.

I could argue that what ME1 did show was activity that is part of the sex act - but that's not the point. You said it did not include nudity, and I beg to differ.

I'd feel perfectly comfortable posting the ME1 romance scenes and not fear getting a warning or an edit from the mods. The same cannot be said of DA:I's romances like Cassandra, Blackwall or Sera. Those are explicit nudity and would likely get me banned.

That's all I'm saying. And now that the line has been crossed, where something is shown in a Bioware romance scene that they can't show on basic cable, that particular Pandora's box is not going to be shut. The fans won't let it.

[dreamgazer]

A brief glimpse of rear end silhouette is not nearly the same league as "let's just have conversations totally naked" that DA:I does. ME1 is insanely conservative in comparison.

 

Case in point: I posted two screen captures in the "Open Letter" thread of the naughty parts from ME1's sex scene. Still there after about a week.

 

Shall we put some money down on whether the same could be said for, say, the Cassandra sequence? 

[Fast Jimmy]

The Exile is no more or less fixed than the Nameless One, the NWN2 MoTB PC, or the POE PC. It's the same Obsidian schtick they keep bringing out. And really any RPG - even say DAO - is equally "predefined" in the sense that to be part of the world at all, the game HAS to give you pre-existing relationships and a past. Bioware tries to run away from that a lot recently because of the backlash against DA2, but that's not really a counterargument here.

Hence I said "arguably." There are events, people and distinct choices made in the Exile's past that tell a story about the character. Even if the player shapes them differently, it still sets a tone. And I'd say DA:O's romances are standard Bioware fare... something you said was a problem in their approach just a few posts ago.

As for TW, well, I'm going to debate how much the pre-written history for Geralt actually matters to their romantic plot.

...you're kidding, right? Geralt's past of literally having his soul tied to that of Yennefer, a girl who sacrificed time and again for Geralt and his friends, and then becoming romantically involved with Yennefer's best friend as mandatory events in TW2... THAT set past doesn't play into the romance of the games?

[von uber]

I really find it weird the issue a lot of americans have with nudity and sex.
This is doubly weird when you look at the size of their porn industry and general titillation in the media.
I mean just look at cheerleaders, that's down right sexual suggestiveness right there.

Very odd. Especially from a European perspective.

[Felps Cross]

For me, it should stay mature, along with all the content in it. I can't see our decisions/actions/consequeces and romances mattering or feeling deep in a game designed for the T public. Hard to imagine.

[KaiserShep]

I really find it weird the issue a lot of americans have with nudity and sex.
This is doubly weird when you look at the size of their porn industry and general titillation in the media.
I mean just look at cheerleaders, that's down right sexual suggestiveness right there.

Very odd. Especially from a European perspective.

It's like Chief Wiggum said:

 

Stop in the name of American squeamishness! 

[Grieving Natashina]

This is something I've been thinking about this weekend.  Language, blood and nudity have been heavily discussed in this thread.  I have talked about about content being just as important.  After some consideration, I've come up with perhaps some decent analogies.   I'm not going to claim that I've worded this accurately.  I'm kinda going off the top of my head.  I don't want to get too off-topic as far as the use of music and editing.  I've just been struggling to get this right and as a very music orientated person, this is the best I could come up with.

 

There is a lot of gangsta rap that's been heavily edited for radio over the years, including uses of the N-word, curse words, editing out words such as something that is also the name of a garden tool, and drug references.  Now, take away those things.   Does it really change the rest of the content and suddenly make it "better" for mass consumption?   I would safely argue that those songs aren't exactly aimed at the masses, save people in the same situation.  However, having those things is much more true to what the rapper/writer was trying to get across.  So, should it be edited for the sake of mass consumption, or should it be left as honest and as raw as the situation the person is coming from?

 

Throughout my lifetime, there have been several hit songs about self-pleasure, and none of them contain heavy language.  Don't worry, there is a point to this, promise.  

 

Billy Idol's "Dancing With Myself" is pretty subtle, and Cindy Lauper's "She-Bop" even less so.  To the point where that became one of the songs on the Dirty Dozen list back in the 80s.  It also became apart of a landmark decision and is the reason that there is a rating system for music today.  If you read the lyrics, it isn't explicit by today's standards.  It's pretty innocent.

 

Anyway, later in 1990, a group by the Divinyls released a song called "I touch myself"  fronted by an adult female lead singer (Which was pretty shocking to hear on the radio as a 10 year old, and I grew up listening to Guns and Roses.)  Again, all clean lyrics about what some would consider inappropriate for teenagers/mass consumption.  No language, no explicit references to blood, and yet, these are all rather sexual songs.  Editing wouldn't change the content.  I know there is plenty more, but I'm tossing out the ones that I remember on the radio from childhood.

 

I could also name several clean hit songs regarding drug abuse, including the deceptively happy song by Third Eye Blind called "Semi-charmed Life."  That one is about meth abuse and I could list more examples.  Unlike many of those songs however, it sounds happy and upbeat; contains no language, blood, sexual content (one verse is about OD'ing, not sex,) and has the direct meth reference edited out.  It doesn't change the lyrical content though.  They took out the only one line directly referencing crystal meth for the radio edit and the song was suddenly okay for the masses.  There is references to "holding," which is a slang term for having drugs on your person, as well as "sipping through my nose."  "I bumped again and then I bumped again..."  I'd recommend checking out the lyrics.

 

 From the debates I've seen in this thread, some could argue that isn't appropriate for the masses/teenagers to listen to.  It seems so incredibly subjective, but then again, that's been the fascination for me on this topic.  It isn't always the blood, or the Words You Still Can't Say on [Network] Television, or the occasional breast shot.  In order to consider making the ME series T, editing some content (i.e swear words, blood/gore or nudity) alone isn't enough.  

 

To swing this back around onto the thread topic, here's my questions at this point regarding ME:  At what point does the intended story of ME become watered-down for the sake of a lower rating?  I'm trying to go beyond what we've talked about to death.

 

Is it the violence, which could be made bloodless and still be as brutal?  The drug references?  The threat of galactic and racial extinction, which some could argue as being too heavy for some teenagers?  The morale decision of possibly choosing genocide for one race or the other?  Is it scenes that show what some could easily consider torture, such as David in the Overlord DLC?  Is it Jack's story, about being a living guinea pig and drugged to fight other kids?  Is it someone both violent and very sexual, like Mornith?  Is it the brutality of showing the scenes of people getting husked?  The aftermath of Maleon's experiments?  

 

What do we cut out here?  I know ME:A is a different trilogy, but many of those themes would likely be a part of the story.  So are those considered too adult?  Would cutting out the language and all of that really change the adult themes section of the ESRB?  I don't think it would and I think the series would stay M/18+.

 

I've had a rough weekend, so those questions are something I'm still thinking about for myself.  I'm not out to start a flame war, or a debate that devolves into personal insults.  I have been very curious about this, so I'm wondering about some opinions in general.

 

_{Yikes, Wall of Text there.  Sorry about that.}