Gotta love how those who don't care for nudity in their games get labeled "puritanitcal" all the time.
Seriously, is name-calling the only real argument that can be brought against it?
Several arguments have been brought against it, primarily it's use as a story telling tool.
But I suppose ignoring those arguments in favor of trying to turn around labels is about as easy as falling back on labels in the first place.
Gotta love how those who don't care for nudity in their games get labeled "puritanitcal" all the time.
Seriously, is name-calling the only real argument that can be brought against it?
I called no one a name. I referred, specifically, to taboos that are puritanical. As in, taboos that are defined by the belief that nudity is inherently wrong or sinful. edit: Servo put it a better way. I acknowledged the existence of the phenomenon.
I'm not assuming that just anyone who avoids nudity subscribes to those taboos.
Not that it makes any difference, really, but considering my familial history, the irony of my being accused of name calling because I used the word puritanical is not lost on me.
This is all a case of extremely personal interpretation. I don't think explicit language is inherently immature, and it can be very useful for conveying a character's personality. As for nudity, whether there's something remotely wrong with doing it for it's own sake is debatable. In the case of Cassandra specifically, I would argue that it added to the sense of openness and intimacy of the scene, which is a big deal for that character. She is a closed person, generally, but she was entirely vulnerable in that moment. It served a purpose.
Of course it is. Nobody has brought up objective reasons why such things should stay, so all that is left is subjective personal reasons. For language the discussion is irrelevant since both T and M allow it.
I will concede that you do have a point though about Cassandra's scene though. A very uncomfortable point for personal reasons, but a point.
Secondly, nudity. Hanako, I don't know if it's a product of your upbringing, your religion, some personal trauma, or if it's just the way you are, but - and this is just my opinion - I think you have some very problematic, if not entirely uncommon, views on the human body and on relationships if you think the Cassandra scene is there for nothing other than titillation. Again, I'm not going to sit here and say that nudity isn't, can't, and never is used for titillation, just like I'm not going to sit here and try to argue that the sky is green. But to paint it all with the same brush, making gross generalizations, and labeling something that clearly wasn't titillation as such; I know you're smarter than that.
I know I do. A couple of the scenarios you guessed are correct, though I don't really want to get more into it on a public forum with people I don't know. Sorry.
I called no one a name. I referred, specifically, to taboos that are puritanical. As in, taboos that are defined by the belief that nudity is inherently wrong or sinful. edit: Servo put it a better way. I acknowledged the existence of the phenomenon.
I'm not assuming that just anyone who avoids nudity subscribes to those taboos.
You deliberately used "puritanical" as a derogatory, if not outright inflammatory way to belittle people who don't care for nudity in their games.
I don't think that was name-calling directed at anyone here, so much as acknowledging the phenomenon.
And yeah, when it means that a given character ends up wearing more clothes than they normally do when the nasty happens, I would characterize that as a weird story decision. Fully clothed shower scenes, dark rituals, etc.
There are plenty of real arguments that can be brought against it, and have in fact been brought against it, repeatedly, in this thread and the other one. Around we go.
Except at no point have I seen anyone on either side of the argument saying underwear shower scenes is a good idea. So saying "puritanical taboos" are to blame for such choices is, again insulting and inflammatory. Smearing the "other side" rather than trying to make a rational point.
ANd if you look at this thread and others, you'll find such terms getting tossed around a lot when people express a dislike of nudity in their games. Mocking people's religion, maturity level, intelligence, even sanity, questioning people's ability to handle "realism" with no attempt to understand why people hold a given position, simply assuming religious or moral grounds (often tossing in terms like "antiquated" or, yes, "puritanical")
Of course it is. Nobody has brought up objective reasons why such things should stay, so all that is left is subjective personal reasons. For language the discussion is irrelevant since both T and M allow it.
I will concede that you do have a point though about Cassandra's scene though. A very uncomfortable point for personal reasons, but a point.
I know I do. A couple of the scenarios you guessed are correct, though I don't really want to get more into it on a public forum with people I don't know.
I'd like to think that I've brought up objective reasons why language is a valid story telling tool in regards to conveying emotions and character archetypes.
Also I have no desire to pry into your personal life and history, and certainly have no desire to drag it out onto a public forum. I simply wished to convey that while I disagree with your views and consider them, as I said, problematic, I also understand that they most certainly have a foundation.
So the immature reasons are the reasons people think it should stay M for 'Mature'? How ironic.
Well, I appreciate the strawman of my position, but not quite. At the end of the day, people curse. And people have sex. And there have been quite a few highly regarded novels, films, comics, etc, which have incorporated these elements into the fold.
I don't think Reservoir Dogs, the Godfather, or Goodfellas for example would be much improved by dropping the content down to a PG-13 level. Likewise for Bioware games.
I'd like to think that I've brought up objective reasons why language is a valid story telling tool in regards to conveying emotions and character archetypes.
Also I have no desire to pry into your personal life and history, and certainly have no desire to drag it out onto a public forum. I simply wished to convey that while I disagree with your views and consider them, as I said, problematic, I also understand that they most certainly have a foundation.
But as I said, both ratings allow strong language, the difference only being the frequency, so for the cases you are proposing both ratings are applicable.
Thank you.
Well, I appreciate the strawman of my position, but not quite. At the end of the day, people curse. And people have sex. And there have been quite a few highly regarded novels, films, comics, etc, which have incorporated these elements into the fold.
I don't think Reservoir Dogs, the Godfather, or Goodfellas for example would be much improved by dropping the content down to a PG-13 level. Likewise for Bioware games.
Funny thing about Resevoir Dogs: THe most"violent" scene, where MR Blonde cuts off the cop's ear, it actually shot in such a way that you don't actually see anything happening.
THough yeah the language is pretty blue throughout.
Except at no point have I seen anyone on either side of the argument saying underwear shower scenes is a good idea. So saying "puritanical taboos" are to blame for such choices is, again insulting and inflammatory. Smearing the "other side" rather than trying to make a rational point.
ANd if you look at this thread and others, you'll find such terms getting tossed around a lot when people express a dislike of nudity in their games. Mocking people's religion, maturity level, intelligence, even sanity, questioning people's ability to handle "realism" with no attempt to understand why people hold a given position, simply assuming religious or moral grounds (often tossing in terms like "antiquated" or, yes, "puritanical")
That goes both ways, with people who are against nudity labeling those who are in favor of it as "just wanting porn" and being, in general, "immature".
Name calling, insults, and inflammatory remarks are not the sole purview of either side of this debate, and your focus on it is just a smoke screen.
The post-romance scene with Ashley I don't see why it was used as an example, since it doesn't have anything M-rated in it. All it has is some suggestive dialogue and she is not wearing a shirt but the camera is looking at her back, showing us only her shoulder and upper back, which would result in a T rating. I was speaking in a more general sense, since the reason the poster was saying it should be M is so they still have immature things like language, idiotic blood and gore( as opposed to realistic which would get T), and titillation. As for Cass' scene in DAI, yes I would characterize it as immature and prurient. It had no reason to be in the game as it was other than to show nudity.
No, you took my argument you tried to go off the deep end with it. I get it, you don't like swearing or naked people or excessive gore in your games. But if you're going to try to play the "it's all so immature card", well, you're going to be hit with a great deal of fiction across an insanely diverse spectrum of genres which have received phenomenal praise.
Well, I appreciate the strawman of my position, but not quite.
No, you took my argument you tried to go off the deep end with it. I get it, you don't like swearing or naked people or excessive gore in your games. But if you're going to try to play the "it's all so immature card", well, you're going to be hit with a great deal of fiction across an insanely diverse spectrum of genres which have received phenomenal praise.
Sorry. 
That goes both ways, with people who are against nudity labeling those who are in favor of it as "just wanting porn" and being, in general, "immature".
For the record, I do not mean to imply this. When I used the terms, it was directed at the scenarios themselves, not the people wanting them.
Funny thing about Resevoir Dogs: THe most"violent" scene, where MR Blonde cuts off the cop's ear, it actually shot in such a way that you don't actually see anything happening.
THough yeah the language is pretty blue throughout.
And that's true. Critics have pointed out that scene specifically as Tarantino breaking the 4th wall with the audience. We don't want to see the act so he turns away (not sure how true that is, just what some have suggested).
But note that this doesn't ipso facto act as an endorsement for T/PG-13 ratings. Reservoir Dogs, in general, is considered a pretty brutal film.
That goes both ways, with people who are against nudity labeling those who are in favor of it as "just wanting porn" and being, in general, "immature".
Name calling, insults, and inflammatory remarks are not the sole purview of either side of this debate, and your focus on it is just a smoke screen.
Granted it goes both ways. But I'm pretty sure one side is more guilty than the other.
Anyone wanna do a word search for "putitanical" vs "immature"?
Sorry.
For the record, I do not mean to imply this. When I used the terms, it was directed at the scenarios themselves, not the people wanting them.
Fair enough, let's just keep going, it's no big deal.
Granted it goes both ways. But I'm pretty sure one side is more guilty than the other.
Anyone wanna do a word search for "putitanical" vs "immature"?
Anyone want to focus on the actual issue we're discussing instead of feigning moral outrage and playing the victim?
And that's true. Critics have pointed out that scene specifically as Tarantino breaking the 4th wall with the audience. We don't want to see the act so he turns away (not sure how true that is, just what some have suggested).
But note that this doesn't ipso facto act as an endorsement for T/PG-13 ratings. Reservoir Dogs, in general, is considered a pretty brutal film.
True. But it does demonstrate that alternatives do exist.
Anyone want to focus on the actual issue we're discussing instead of feigning moral outrage and playing the victim?
To be honest, the discussion seems to have reached an impasse since all that remains is subjective positions.
Plus it doesn't matter. Bioware will never do it.
Anyone want to focus on the actual issue we're discussing instead of feigning moral outrage and playing the victim?
All for a serious argument. I just didn't think calling people on their mockery was "feigning moral outrage"
True. But it does demonstrate that alternatives do exist.
In the sense that you can have good movies of different ratings creating popular appeal?
They certainly do. I thought Wall-E was a brilliant depiction of a post-apocalyptic society, in its own way. And that was harmless as a film gets in terms of rating. But I don't think that doesn't mean that we should abandon more brutal depictions, as per Fallout.
If Bioware makes the decision to go for a T rating and puts their heart and soul into it, I'll likely enjoy the game. There are T and E rated games that I like. But with the sheer number of M/R rated films/games that I've enjoyed, I wouldn't want the creator limit themselves to the T spectrum by default.
In short: I'd rather Bioware make a game that happens to fall into the T-spectrum because of their creative decisions rather than play a game which was made strictly to fit within a T-spectrum. That's essentially the source of my Reservoir Dogs example. And in some cases, it has hurt stories that I very much love, as per Avatar: the Last Airbender.
All for a serious argument. I just didn't think calling people on their mockery was "feigning moral outrage"
And maybe you aren't. I suspect you are, but it's possible you legitimately saw mockery where there wasn't any and the perceived insult was the straw that broke the camel's back for you.
In any event, I'm done falling down this particular rabbit hole.
In the sense that you can have good movies of different ratings creating popular appeal?
They certainly do. I thought Wall-E was a brilliant depiction of a post-apocalyptic society, in its own way. And that was harmless as a film gets in terms of rating. But I don't think that doesn't mean that we should abandon more brutal depictions, as per Fallout.
If Bioware makes the decision to go for a T rating and puts their heart and soul into it, I'll likely enjoy the game. There are T and E rated games that I like. But with the sheer number of M/R rated films/games that I've enjoyed, I wouldn't want the creator limit themselves to the T spectrum by default.
In short: I'd rather Bioware make a game that happens to fall into the T-spectrum because of their creative decisions rather than play a game which was made strictly to fit within a T-spectrum. That's essentially the source of my Reservoir Dogs example. And in some cases, it has hurt stories that I very much love, as per Avatar: the Last Airbender.
And I'm not saying that a T rating should be sought as a default. THough yes, such games can and in the past have been very good. There are some incredibly popular games, both action and rpg (Starcraft and Planescape: Torment as I've mentioned before)
But yes, also, M rated games can also be great. But being rated M doesn't in itself make them good. And I think it's entirely too easy to go overboard on content simply because it's M rated. Not because it actually adds anything to the game or to the story.
That is something I think developers should be watchful for.
ANd if you look at this thread and others, you'll find such terms getting tossed around a lot when people express a dislike of nudity in their games. Mocking people's religion, maturity level, intelligence, even sanity, questioning people's ability to handle "realism" with no attempt to understand why people hold a given position, simply assuming religious or moral grounds (often tossing in terms like "antiquated" or, yes, "puritanical")
Well, I don't disagree with this. It's not my position, and I've been careful that my posts on the subject reflect that.
I also just don't really know if anyone's really justified in worrying excessively over this in the case of Bioware. No, I don't want them to be constrained in any way from the start, but at the same time, I'm not really worried - at all - that what they end up doing will be that objectionable (and I do regard the inclusion of some "objectionable" content - language, for characterization, or sensible romantic content being good examples - as crucial, and an unwillingness to just ignore some content as unreasonable).
I think that gameplay options that let you tailor the content you experience to some extent would be ideal, but I also think that if something you (not you you, general you) take issue with is deemed important enough to be present and unskippable, you have the grace and good humor just to deal with it, or ignore it. That drink's not gonna get itself.
And I'm not saying that a T rating should be sought as a default. THough yes, such games can and in the past have been very good. There are some incredibly popular games, both action and rpg (Starcraft and Planescape: Torment as I've mentioned before)
But yes, also, M rated games can also be great. But being rated M doesn't in itself make them good. And I think it's entirely too easy to go overboard on content simply because it's M rated. Not because it actually adds anything to the game or to the story.
That is something I think developers should be watchful for.
I think that question needs to be framed differently. Being rated M doesn't simply make a good game in the sense that F-bombs, naked people, and dead bodies are all I want from a scene. If that were the case, I would rate all M/R media very highly and that's definitely not true. But in the reverse scenario, there have been scenes which are absolutely brutal and couldn't happen with any other rating which are extremely iconic, the Reservoir Dogs ear-cutting scene being a key example. Oberyn's brutal death in GoT, offering another.
Note that the question was in regards to Bioware's strengths and wanting an M-rating. I don't know how you feel about the DA:O Brood-mother encounter or the DA:I Grey Warden murder/blood rituals, but those are examples of scenes I greatly enjoyed that couldn't happen with a lesser rating.
Even using Planescape:Torment, while that works as an example because it is T-rated, brings up other issues with regards to our rating system. This is a huge part of why I advocate for KotOR 2 as an example deserving an M-rating. It probably offers one of the most despicable moral choices offered in gaming, but because it's not as overt as say F-bombs or naked bodies, it manages to eschew a higher rating. And I can't say there are many moral arguments which could be used to defend as F-bombs/naked people as being more problematic with regard to that content.
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