I am so over being lectured for using words just because they get on someone's nerves. I never realized how many people expect language to bend to their feelings.
You deliberately used "puritanical" as a derogatory, if not outright inflammatory way to belittle people who don't care for nudity in their games.
You know, you seem so certain that I'm almost convinced.
Except not really, because I didn't.
I think that question needs to be framed differently. Being rated M doesn't simply make a good game in the sense that F-bombs, naked people, and dead bodies are all I want from a scene. If that were the case, I would rate all M/R media very highly and that's definitely not true. But in the reverse scenario, there have been scenes which are absolutely brutal and couldn't happen with any other rating which are extremely iconic, the Reservoir Dogs ear-cutting scene being a key example. Oberyn's brutal death in GoT, offering another.
I'd say such scenes have to be crafted with utmost care in order to do justice to the scene, and make it more than simply pandering for a rating. Or simply be a "because we can" scene.
The Resevoir Dogs scene is one. I'd probably quibble with Oberyn's death scene though. I'd have to go back and reread the scene, but I think it was even more brutal than how GRRM portrayed it. I'd probably put the Red Wedding scene as a better example.
But at any rate, this stuff is something that requires a deft touch. SOmething that I'm concerned Bioware no longer has. If they ever did (given my favorites of their games are mostly the T rated ones).
Note that the question was in regards to Bioware's strengths and wanting an M-rating. I don't know how you feel about the DA:O Brood-mother encounter or the DA:I Grey Warden murder/blood rituals, but those are examples of scenes I greatly enjoyed that couldn't happen with a lesser rating.
The brood mother was rather a mixed bag. I found the path leading up to it, with Hespith's poem and confession to be incredibly dark and creepy. The brood mother herself...not so much. It was a boss fight with nipples. A lot of nipples.
The Grey Warden Joining was well done. THough I turn off persistent gore so I don't know how much blood spatter is standard.
Even using Planescape:Torment, while that works as an example because it is T-rated, brings up other issues with regards to our rating system. This is a huge part of why I advocate for KotOR 2 as an example deserving an M-rating. It probably offers one of the most despicable moral choices offered in gaming, but because it's not as overt as say F-bombs or naked bodies, it manages to eschew a higher rating. And I can't say there are many moral arguments which could be used to defend as F-bombs/naked people as being more problematic.
Out of curiosity, what's the "most despicable moral choice" you find in it? There's certainly a lot of moral greyness in that game, but I don't recall any choice that was as "fist through screen" despicable as what ME3 provided.
All for a serious argument. I just didn't think calling people on their mockery was "feigning moral outrage"
I didn't mock anyone.
Seriously.
I really would like my enemys been ripped to pieces.
I want gore and blood and guts.
I'd say such scenes have to be crafted with utmost care in order to do justice to the scene, and make it more than simply pandering for a rating. Or simply be a "because we can" scene.
The Resevoir Dogs scene is one. I'd probably quibble with Oberyn's death scene though. I'd have to go back and reread the scene, but I think it was even more brutal than how GRRM portrayed it. I'd probably put the Red Wedding scene as a better example.
That's also why I think it is a mistake to try to outline an "objective" reason for why we need M-rating. I don't think there are objective reasons for that- there are only subjective ones. If somebody says the ear-cutting scene didn't do it for them, there's nothing I can offer as a convincing counter. But I don't think that objective reasons are needed to justify wanting an M-rating. It's just a case of everyone advocating for what they want the most. In this case however, it's just that those being comfortable with an M-rating are bit more plentiful, at least as this forum goes.
Out of curiosity, what's the "most despicable moral choice" you find in it? There's certainly a lot of moral greyness in that game, but I don't recall any choice that was as "fist through screen" despicable as what ME3 provided.
Well, the KotOR series allows the playing of a Sadist, which is very questionable. The scene I was thinking of involves the sacrifice of Visas Marr. Morally grey requires there be some redeeming act to what might be considered controversial decision-making. That entire sequence goes a bit beyond that.
The game allows you to romantically manipulate someone into committing suicide, simply to weaken your enemy. That alone bumps us into morally grey. But then, they take it a step farther by giving the PC the ability to rub it in Visas' face as she's dying in front of you that the only reason you ever involved yourself with her was to treat her as a pawn. If our concern is mature content, I find that much more dangerous than an F-bomb or set of breasts.
Note that, as bad as the endings to ME3 might have been, there was no other option in that context. Those decisions are morally grey in the context of "pick your poison". There's no sadism behind the ME3 decisions, on the part of Shepard. In general, that could be said for most of KotOR's decisions being worse than Mass Effect, since they're all about sadism.
The great thing about the word Bosh'tet is that Ash Sroka voices Tali so well that you can almost hear which English word fits based on context and intonation alone.
Nice job, you genetically perfect Cerberus cheerleader bosh'tet! Keelah se'lai!
Hands up if you didn't think that equated b*tch 
The great thing about the word Bosh'tet is that Ash Sroka voices Tali so well that you can almost hear which English word fits based on context and intonation alone.
Nice job, you genetically perfect Cerberus cheerleader bosh'tet! Keelah se'lai!
Hands up if you didn't think that equated b*tch
Well, considering she also says "keelah, she was such a bіtch" the same exchange........
I obviously know what the word literaly means, unlike all you plebs, but I'm just playing along.
Of course it is. Nobody has brought up objective reasons why such things should stay, so all that is left is subjective personal reasons. For language the discussion is irrelevant since both T and M allow it.
I will concede that you do have a point though about Cassandra's scene though. A very uncomfortable point for personal reasons, but a point.
I believe that a writer's freedom to build a story and characters without being confined to the parameters of an arbitrary standard of decency is objectively a positive. I believe that a dedication to that arbitrary standard of decency is what leads to banned books, confusing subtextual indications of moral concepts (like a female character in a kimono indicating promiscuity in older hollywood film), and a generally higher cultural hypocrisy.
Continuing the use of Reservoir Dogs as an example, Tarantino decided to turn the camera away when Mr. Blonde lifted that knife of his own accord, without any pressures about avoiding explicit content. I don't think it did anything to make the moment less horrific or impactful.
damn it, they tactical nuked the last couple pages of the thread. Who squealed?
Seriously, do I at least get to keep the likes from all my excellent posts?
^Oh right.....whatever Lady Artifice said
Wait, what happened to the thread?
Wait, what happened to the thread?
I happened.
A specialized team of biomods then had to be sent in to mop up the tears of unfathomable butthurt, along with the entirely legitimate, within the rules and 100% serious posts which produced them.
But they left the above one where I may or may not have made a mockery of the swear filter completely intact.
Never change biower.
Ah. Well I mean, if nothing else, that is kinda flattering that they're giving you so much attention. Take pride in it.
That's also why I think it is a mistake to try to outline an "objective" reason for why we need M-rating. I don't think there are objective reasons for that- there are only subjective ones. If somebody says the ear-cutting scene didn't do it for them, there's nothing I can offer as a convincing counter. But I don't think that objective reasons are needed to justify wanting an M-rating. It's just a case of everyone advocating for what they want the most. In this case however, it's just that those being comfortable with an M-rating are bit more plentiful, at least as this forum goes.
It certainly seems to be.
But again, since there seems to be a wide variety of tastes, even within the M rating (nudity may bother some people more than violence, or vice-versa, among other things) that even saying someone is "comfortable with an M rating" has a lot of milage that may vary
Well, the KotOR series allows the playing of a Sadist, which is very questionable. The scene I was thinking of involves the sacrifice of Visas Marr. Morally grey requires there be some redeeming act to what might be considered controversial decision-making. That entire sequence goes a bit beyond that.
The game allows you to romantically manipulate someone into committing suicide, simply to weaken your enemy. That alone bumps us into morally grey. But then, they take it a step farther by giving the PC the ability to rub it in Visas' face as she's dying in front of you that the only reason you ever involved yourself with her was to treat her as a pawn. If our concern is mature content, I find that much more dangerous than an F-bomb or set of breasts.
Note that, as bad as the endings to ME3 might have been, there was no other option in that context. Those decisions are morally grey in the context of "pick your poison". There's no sadism behind the ME3 decisions, on the part of Shepard. In general, that could be said for most of KotOR's decisions being worse than Mass Effect, since they're all about sadism.
Ah, yeah. I've racked up DS points in those games in the past, but both KOTOR games are pretty well littered with Stupid Evil choices as well. I never really looked at sacrificing Visas, since even if I was Dark Side, I'd see that as a pointless waste of resources.
I believe that a writer's freedom to build a story and characters without being confined to the parameters of an arbitrary standard of decency is objectively a positive. I believe that a dedication to that arbitrary standard of decency is what leads to banned books, confusing subtextual indications of moral concepts (like a female character in a kimono indicating promiscuity in older hollywood film), and a generally higher cultural hypocrisy.
Good point. Thank you. This was the kind of discussion I was hoping for when I asked that.
As for the underlined, seriously? That is pretty much the exact opposite of what a kimono is supposed to represent. It's like saying dress attire indicates promiscuity.
I'd say such scenes have to be crafted with utmost care in order to do justice to the scene, and make it more than simply pandering for a rating. Or simply be a "because we can" scene.
The Resevoir Dogs scene is one. I'd probably quibble with Oberyn's death scene though. I'd have to go back and reread the scene, but I think it was even more brutal than how GRRM portrayed it. I'd probably put the Red Wedding scene as a better example.
But at any rate, this stuff is something that requires a deft touch. SOmething that I'm concerned Bioware no longer has. If they ever did (given my favorites of their games are mostly the T rated ones).
No matter how graphic GoT gets it's never really explicit to me, whereas Reservoir Dogs despite knowing only what's happening and the ear thing is highly explicit.
As for the underlined, seriously? That is pretty much the exact opposite of what a kimono is supposed to represent. It's like saying dress attire indicates promiscuity.
Let's not go accusing Hollywood of having an ounce of cultural sensitivity, now.
Spoiler
Good point. Forgot who we were talking about for a moment.
Note that, as bad as the endings to ME3 might have been, there was no other option in that context. Those decisions are morally grey in the context of "pick your poison". There's no sadism behind the ME3 decisions, on the part of Shepard. In general, that could be said for most of KotOR's decisions being worse than Mass Effect, since they're all about sadism.
Wha? Condemning an entire society or group of people to extinction or to fundamentally alter their biological fate is a kind of extreme sadism.
For whatever reason sadism is invariably associated with :"You'll tell me what I need to know! RAH" followed by lightning spewing from fingertips and all that, and only that.
The ending of ME3 is like you suddenly being the Brain from Pinky and the Brain on his most malevolent day. you are like this global judge jury and executioner for every living (and unliving) thing.
Ahem at any rate, not really super following this thread it seems like there is a lot of hinting and such, but if people out and out stated their kind of overall positions on this and other issues it would be... maybe more clear?
Does GoT do it bad or good, compared to the books, compard to Quentin Tarantino, compared to NWN or something? How does Hollywood factor into all this?
Wha? Condemning an entire society or group of people to extinction or to fundamentally alter their biological fate is a kind of extreme sadism.
For whatever reason sadism is invariably associated with :"You'll tell me what I need to know! RAH" followed by lightning spewing from fingertips and all that, and only that.
The ending of ME3 is like you suddenly being the Brain from Pinky and the Brain on his most malevolent day. you are like this global judge jury and executioner for every living (and unliving) thing.
That's not sadism though. Sadism is involved with taking actual pleasure in the suffering of others.
That's not ME3's ending as written. Outside of headcanoned motives, which are kinda outside the scope of game ratings, there's no point where Shepard gets to say "man, I really want to murder the Geth, I hate those guys" or talk about how much he's looking forward to watching everyone freak out over their new physiology. He's put into a crappy situation and has to find a way to make the best of it, rather.
I think it's a bad narrative attempt, for a million different reasons. But it's not any more sadistic than, say, the trolleys thought experiment is sadistic. It's a "pick your poison" kind of deal.
Ah, yeah. I've racked up DS points in those games in the past, but both KOTOR games are pretty well littered with Stupid Evil choices as well. I never really looked at sacrificing Visas, since even if I was Dark Side, I'd see that as a pointless waste of resources.
I got lucky, as it turned out, I didn't need my party for the rest of the game. 
But yeah, what I'm advocating for is an alternate approach to ratings. Regardless of my dislike of ME3's ending on logical/thematic grounds, that's not the basis for game ratings. Ratings are assigned with respect to how acceptable the content is to display to different age groups. In general, while the KotOR series is restrained in terms of gore factor, I'm not really comfortable with the idea of sadistic acts (which the player intentionally chooses to undertake) being considered more acceptable to expose to a younger audience than foul language, as an example.
Well duh, you can't "murder" something that obviously isn't people, like a toaster. That'd be silly. Its called deactivate or break.there's no point where Shepard gets to say "man, I really want to murder the Geth, I hate those guys"
That's not sadism though. Sadism is involved with taking actual pleasure in the suffering of others.
Well that describes every other High School Teacher/professional and possibly every single English professor I've ever met.
What you describe is an immensely common human occurence, thus I still take issue with your valuations or how KOTOR jumps out of the mileu exactly.
As for "being forced into the situation" that's pure contrivance, and people lie about whether they're doing these vicious things for pleasure or for "necessity." They are conflated in fact almost all the time, and all it falls upon is the individual to collapse the psuedo-justifications.
Incidentally it wasn't in the ending but the possibility of totally annihilating the Quarian fleet at that earlier point struck me for all kinds of reasons, mostly bad ones, just, profound hatred.
Well that describes every other High School Teacher/professional and possibly every single English professor I've ever met.
What you describe is an immensely common human occurence, thus I still take issue with your valuations or how KOTOR jumps out of the mileu exactly.
Because it involves taking pleasure in the suffering/torture/murder of others? It didn't have to be KotOR, it could have been any game which employs a straight good/evil morality system.
The key take away is that viewing F-bombs and naked bodies as concepts earning a game a mature rating is pretty nuts given that we're allowing people the ability to play characters who outright murder people for their own twisted sense of fun. They should be reversed in terms of importance.
As for "being forced into the situation" that's pure contrivance, and people lie about whether they're doing these vicious things for pleasure or for "necessity." They are conflated in fact almost all the time, and all it falls upon is the individual to collapse the psuedo-justifications.
Incidentally it wasn't in the ending but the possibility of totally annihilating the Quarian fleet at that earlier point struck me for all kinds of reasons, mostly bad ones, just, profound hatred.
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