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Should BioWare make the move to "T for Teen" with Andromeda?


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#751
Seraphim24

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Because it involves taking pleasure in the suffering/torture/murder of others? It didn't have to be KotOR, it could have been any game which employs a straight good/evil morality system.  

 

The key take away is that viewing F-bombs and naked bodies as concepts earning a game a mature rating is pretty nuts given that we're allowing people the ability to play characters who outright murder people for their own twisted sense of fun. They should be reversed in terms of importance. 

 

You are making absolute evaluations in the absence of relative ones, which is the real essence of any evaluation. The point is wasn't what KOTOR does or doesn't do, but what it does or doesn't do relative to other media games, possibilities, etc.

 

There are lots of media (most, the majority actually) rife with sadism beyond that of KOTOR, why is this the only one you want to discuss?

 

Cherry picking or otherwise fixating on a few examples at the handful isn't making a moral statement, it's actually undercutting the possibility of one by simplifying the contest of possibilities into an arena of absolutes.



#752
Il Divo

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You are making absolute evaluations in the absence of relative ones, which is the real essence of any evaluation. The point is wasn't what KOTOR does or doesn't do, but what it does or doesn't do relative to other media games, possibilities, etc.

 

ME is rife with sadism beyond that of KOTOR.

 

Where is all the sadism in Mass Effect on that level? Show where you can sadistically go around murdering random commoners for the hell of it, torture random civilians, or express a general sadistic attitude towards everyone around you, on a regular basis. 

 

Every step the player takes in KotOR gives you an opportunity to hurt somebody in some way. Not in a "greater good" context, not in a "this guy is a terrible person, he deserves it", but in a I'm a moustache twirling villain, I'm going to murder you all because I can approach. 


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#753
Seraphim24

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Show where you can sadistically go around murdering random commoners for the hell of it, torture random civilians, or express a general sadistic attitude towards everyone around you, on a regular basis. 

 

Every step the player takes in KotOR gives you an opportunity to hurt somebody in some way.  

 

Like every other level? ME2 is full of themes of global (or galactic) dominion and domination. I mean ME2 renegade Shepard is very virtriolic and hateful and violent towards just about anything and everything, oftentimes than for no other reason than that it's "funny" to him or his squadmates.

 

Granted, it's not all that, sure, it's got a mix of ideas, but it's obviously there, and if you are comparing that to KOTOR there isn't really a comparison, KOTOR isn't as sadistic.

 

I'd rather not be in a position of criticizing ME either, to be quite clear, it's a solid franchise, but that's what happens when you undertake the position of absolutes, that which you defend becomes subject to extremes of censure. It doesn't do justice to your target or even the place of firing the attack.

 

I mean there is nothing like ME2 renegade Shepard, who ultimately isn't even really a renegade or a rebel, would not have minded the opportunity to criticize the Spectre programs means and objectives or humanity's mission in space, or Cerberus, or whatever, but ME2 renegrade Shepard was simply a loud mouthed bigoted patsy who believed the essence of rebellion was of who can concot the greater dig sounding insult.

 

In practice, ME2 Shepard was like a manically devoted follower/soldier with very little independent or rebellious spirit.



#754
Il Divo

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Like every other level? The whole theme of ME2 for instance is one of global dominion and domination. I mean ME2 renegade Shepard is essentially nothing but pure vitrol and hatred and violence towards just about anything and everything, oftentimes than for no other reason than that it's "funny" to him or his squadmates.

 

Granted, it's not all that, sure, it's got a mix of ideas, but it's obviously there, and if you are comparing that to KOTOR there is no comparison KOTOR isn't as sadistic.

 

You mean the part where you get to murder that dude's daughter on Manaan, rub it in his face that you did it, then extort more blackmail money from him? Or the part where you have the option to full on admit to Bastila that the only reason you let Saul Karath torture you is to watch her suffer? Or in general, murdering all the scientists on the Hrakert Rift? Or extorting money from that chick outside the tavern and then rubbing it in her face? Or the bounties on Taris? 

 

Whatever definition is being employed, if that's not sadism, then the term no longer has any meaning. How often does Mass Effect let you legimitately hurt/kill someone innocent "just because" without some sort of greater good concept in effect (Ex: Shooting Tela Vasir's civilian)? Because that's the entire point behind the Dark Side philosophy in KotOR. You do it because you can, and for no other reason. 


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#755
Seraphim24

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You mean the part where you get to murder that dude's daughter on Manaan, rub it in his face that you did it, then extort more blackmail money from him? Or the part where you have the option to full on admit to Bastila that the only reason you let Saul Karath torture you is to watch her suffer? Or in general, murdering all the scientists on the Hrakert Rift? Or extorting money from that chick outside the tavern and then rubbing it in her face? Or the bounties on Taris? 

 

Seriously, whatever definition you're using, if that's not sadism, then the term no longer has any meaning. How often does Mass Effect let you legimitately hurt/kill someone innocent "just because" without some sort of greater good concept in effect (Ex: Shooting Tela Vasir's civilian)? Because that's the entire point behind the Dark Side philosophy in KotOR. You do it because you can, and for no other reason. 

 

This is just more absolutism and cherry picking.



#756
Il Divo

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This is just more absolutism and cherry picking.

 

No, it just accurately fits the definition of sadism.

 

I could go on endlessly with all the messed up stuff KotOR lets you do relative to Mass Effect on sadistic grounds, since that's kinda what the game's about. 


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#757
Seraphim24

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No, it just accurately fits the definition of sadism.

 

I could go on endlessly with all the messed up stuff KotOR lets you do relative to Mass Effect on sadistic grounds. 

 

Well lets flip the coin, in KOTOR there are themes of inter-domination struggle, but the themes essentially revolve around Bastila and Revan's exploration of Jedi Power and the necessity of containing and controlling it within the larger sphere of the Jedi light/dark struggles and so on. Bastila and Revan aren't like, the twin stars of ultimate dominance, they don't necessarily seek to wreck every planet they come across in order to falsely empower themselves or something.

 

Is there a spot of terror or whimsical impartation of jestful stinging and dominon? Yes. Are the themes of dominion overlapping with this more personal quest? Yes. Every planet you go to offers kind of an opportunity to bring hatred to the fore, but unlike ME these are part of a smaller scale and are more subservient to these other thematic elements.

 

It's more like there is a bleeding between actual objectives and sadistic whimsy, but while KOTOR trades in that currency at times, ME threatens to become more an actual dealer in it. By ME2 and 3, that process becomes more complete.

 

And again, to be quite clear, there are dozens of other examples far exceeding ME and KOTOR, there are a few movies I've watched somewhat recently that seemed to exist for no other purpose than to sadistically torment viewers.



#758
Synthetic Turian

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If they manage to keep the gameplay fun and story interesting, they can rate it whatever they would like.


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#759
Il Divo

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Well lets flip the coin, in KOTOR there are themes of inter-domination struggle, but the themes essentially revolve around Bastila and Revan's exploration of Jedi Power and the necessity of containing and controlling it within the larger sphere of the Jedi light/dark struggles and so on. Bastila and Revan aren't like, the twin stars of ultimate dominance, they don't necessarily seek to wreck every planet they come across in order to falsely empower themselves or something

 

This is exactly what KotOR"s dark side ending revolves around. 

 

You also have the ability to specifically do both these things on Kashykk and Manaan. 

 

Is there a spot of terror or whimsical impartation of jestful stinging and dominon? Yes. Are the themes of dominion overlapping with this more personal quest? Yes. Every planet you go to offers kind of an opportunity to bring hatred to the fore, but unlike ME these are part of a smaller scale and are more subservient to these other thematic elements.

 

 

But scale isn't by itself a criteria for sadism. 

 

If you're forced into a situation where no matter what you do, something terrible is going to happen (like the ME3 endings) and you make a tough call, that's not being sadistic. 

 

If you, for no reason at all, decide to go out and start torturing puppies, that's considered sadism. That's what KotOR regularly lets the player engage in. 

 

The scale of genocide vs puppy torturing isn't important to discerning sadism. Sadism is identified via intent, not via scale.

 

Now if we were talking about someone who enjoys puppy torturing but is afraid of genocide vs someone who loves the idea of committing genocide, then we could talk about scale being used to discern sadism: person A is less sadistic than person B. 


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#760
Seraphim24

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Except this is exactly what KotOR"s dark side ending revolves around. 

 

You also have the ability to specifically do both these things on Kashykk and Manaan. 

 

 

But scale isn't by itself a criteria for sadism. 

 

If you're forced into a situation where no matter what you do, something terrible is going to happen (like the ME3 endings) and you make a tough call, that's not being sadistic. 

 

If you, for no reason at all, decide to go out and start torturing puppies, that's considered sadism. That's what KotOR regularly lets the player engage in. 

 

The scale of genocide vs puppy torturing isn't important to discerning sadism. Sadism is identified via intent, not via scale.

 

Now if we were talking about someone who enjoys puppy torturing but is afraid of genocide vs someone who loves the idea of committing genocide, then we could talk about scale being used to discern sadism. 

 

And the intent in ME is frequently that of sadism, the whole point of fighting for the Quarian fleet, fighting for the end of the world, fighting for earth. If synthesis was ultimately just a byproduct of natural evolution, why were they even fighting anyway? It was just accelerated evolution, the entire purpose of ME3 is thrown away because it's all just an accelerated state, well except for all those bodies along the way to make that resolution.

 

Maybe Shepard and co. should of sat down with Sovereign for a drink and tea and conversation but instead it was all "you can't tell me what to do!" And yet he ultlimately did what they wanted anyway, but there's all sorts of random soldiers and workers that you pushed out of windows before you ultimately got to that point.

 

The ME series is literred with unnecessary conflict and drama that can only be precisely traced for an actual interest in it.

 

In fact, pretty much most of the planetary exploration and dominance post ME1 was thinly tied to an issue of borrowing of mercenary fighting for artificial body parts, but there is nothing there to condition means or ends, and even the collector's intents and goals could be conflated with those of the Reapers to the point where all you really have is a bloodbath,.

 

I mean Jon Snow escaped the Wildings with pretty much no shirt off his back, did he ever kill a single crow? No. Shepard wallows around sticking it to people left and right all for "humanity," when humanity had already agreed upon and accepted the original council and spectre organization. It's pretty hard to believe with inter-stellar light technology and communication and the flimsiest of bodyguards (Miranda who falls for you within the first half), that this couldn't have been re-arranged into something other than a full slate of domination and clubbing.



#761
Il Divo

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And the intent in ME is frequently that of sadism, the whole point of fighting for the Quarian fleet, fighting for the end of the world, fighting for earth. If synthesis was ultimately just a byproduct of natural evolution, why were they even fighting anyway? It was just accelerated evolution, the entire purpose of ME3 is thrown away because it's all just an accelerated state.

 

Maybe Shepard and co. should of sat down with Sovereign for a drink and tea and conversation but instead it was all "you can't tell me what to do!" And yet he ultlimately did what they wanted anyway, but there's all sorts of random soldiers and workers that you pushed out of windows before you ultimately got to that point.

 

The ME series is literred with unnecessary conflict and drama that can only be precisely traced for an actual interest in it.

 

In fact, pretty much most of the planetary exploration and dominance post ME1 was thinly tied to an issue of fixating, but there is nothing there to condition means or ends, and even the collector's intents and goals could be conflated with those of the Reapers to the point where all you really have is a bloodbath.

 

Just to be clear here, resisting galactic genocide/forced Synthesis is not the same thing as sadism. 


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#762
Seraphim24

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Just to be clear here, resisting galactic genocide/forced Synthesis is not the same thing as sadism. 

 

The interpretation of synthesis was quite clear, it is an ultimate state, higher evolution, it was the "true third path" offered in many CnC games.

 

If the developers themselves were encouraging it, it's hard not to take it seriously as such.

 

Destruction and dominion (particularly in the absence of an alternative such synthesis) is offered clearly to denote overt sadism and the kind of traditional "evil" path offered in CnC games.

 

I say traditional because in many other games or at times such as with SWTOR the sith path can mean so many things, sometimes it's greed, sometime's it's just fulfilling a different organization's objectives, and so on and so forth.

 

The overt genocidal prospects of the Reapers were only explicit in the first game.

 

The issue of resistance and necessity is blurred because of the shifting trajectories of the games themselves, but by the end of ME3, they essentially are postulated as a non-threat.



#763
Il Divo

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The interpretation of synthesis was quite clear, it is an ultimate state, higher evolution, it was the "true third path" offered in many CnC games.

 

If the developers themselves were encouraging it, it's hard not to take it seriously as such.

 

Destruction and dominion (particularly in the absence of an alternative such synthesis) is offered clearly to denote overt sadism and the kind of traditional "evil" path offered in CnC games.

 

I say traditional because in many other games or at times such as with SWTOR the sith path can mean so many things, sometimes it's greed, sometime's it's just fulfilling a different organization's objectives, and so on and so forth.

 

We are not even given the option of Synthesis until the last 5 minutes of the game. Resisting the Reapers up until that point would not be considered sadism; they have announced their intentions to murder us all and turn us into a giant Reaper slushie. 

 

Even in that context, we are not required to accept the Reapers' logic. If we do not believe Synthesis to be an end point, regardless of developer intent, it would not be sadism to choose a different route.

 

As I said above, sadism is not denoted solely by scale of threat, but also by motivation. That is not present in Mass Effect in any capacity to the degree it is present in KotOR, in either motivation or scale.  

 

What you're describing is the common problem portrayed in the trolleys thought experiment. Somebody who refuses to flip a switch to save 5 lives at the expense of one life is not ipso facto sadistic, but could be operating from a different set of moral principles. 

 

I can point to KotOR as sadistic because I am regularly given opportunities to hurt random people with no justification what so ever, beyond personal satisfaction. While some of Mass Effect's options are questionable in terms of dialogue and morality, few (if any) rival KotOR in terms of sheer cruelty. 



#764
Seraphim24

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In fact, what your hinting it is precisely the reason why ME3's ending was so hated, what was originally a contest of willpower and struggle between genocidal Reapers and the alliance of organic races, became presumably a diminished one of ultimate capitulation to them.

 

It was designed to kind of say, Humans and their Asari/Turian companions are basically nothing.

 

Of course, and this is the irony which never ceases to amuse me, in doing so they undercut therefore the entire theoretical basis for struggle, and what appeared to be an empowerment of this ultimate bug at the end of the universe, had the dual edged effect of transforming that alliance of humans and other races into a band of vengeful and sardonic mercenary warlords and ruffians. It became a ballad of, as we've been saying, sadism, not of empowerment or victory or heroism, but simple pushing out of a windows, chewing gum, and spitting on those with no other reason than that they aren't "cool enough."

 

So what was intended to be a triumph of the Reapers and the limitations of humanity, was actually an open declaration of pure inferiority and thrill seeking vengeance.

 

The dual edge of compelling Reapers to a position of power had already been met by the transformation of that original Alliance into again ride across the galaxy seeking pleasure and fortune mercenary approach of ME2. The people who fought the battles in ME3 were not even really super related to those of ME1, they had the same names and titltes, sure, but their objectives, goals, and means/methods had changed.



#765
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We are not even given the option of Synthesis until the last 5 minutes of the game. Resisting the Reapers up until that point would not be considered sadism; they have announced their intentions to murder us all and turn us into a giant Reaper slushie. 

 

Even in that context, we are not required to accept the Reapers' logic. If we do not believe Synthesis to be an end point, regardless of developer intent, it would not be sadism to choose a different route.

 

As I said above, sadism is not denoted solely by scale of threat, but also by motivation. That is not present in Mass Effect in any capacity to the degree it is present in KotOR, in either motivation or scale.  

 

What you're describing is the common problem portrayed in the trolleys thought experiment. Somebody who refuses to flip a switch to save 5 lives at the expense of one life is not ipso facto sadistic, but could be operating from a different set of moral principles. 

 

The reapers actions in ME3, read in conjunction with the interpretation of the synthesis option, leads us to the irrevocable conclusion that all of the Reaper's actions in ME3 were, whatever they were, that precise phase of forced evolutionary acceleration.

 

If humanity and everyone had done nothing in ME3 but accept their destruction at the hands of the Reapers etc, their fate arguably did not change one iota from that point to the ultimate synthesis ending.

 

The only difference is that humanity and the asari and everyone goes around wrecking people's buildings and property and as I've been saying pushes them against the wall and forcing them to talk before that point.



#766
Angry_Elcor

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It's amazing how much energy people will spend debating a rating system that isn't even legally enforced. It's a purely voluntary system regulated by the video game industry. As for me, I don't care. If BioWare wants to make a kids' game, power to them. I won't buy it, but I fail to see how I could ever be harmed by its existence. If BioWare makes a game with adult themes and such, I fail to see why I should care about anyone offended by it.

 

But then I always say that kind of thing.


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#767
Natureguy85

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Before I get to replies, I think we need to focus less on what and more on why. If there is swearing, violence, nudity, or whatever, is it there to serve a purpose such as realism, or is it there for shock value or just because? For example, I have never liked the "Don't f**k with Aria," line because the emphasis and camera being zoomed in on her mouth screamed to me that it was just Bioware saying "Hey, we say f**k now." This was strengthened by Aria doing absolutely nothing.

 

 

Under PEGI there's no real direct equivalent to the ESRB 'AO' rating... if a UK site says a game is for "Adults Only" that doesn't have the same connotations as the 'AO' rating even it if it's kinda the same thing, it just means it's got an 18 rating. There's no special PEGI rating for gambling/porn games which is pretty much what 'AO' equates to... so Strip Poker Prostitutes 7 (no, I don't know whether that exists) would have the same rating as Mass Effect 3.

There's no real distinction in the UK. There's no alternative to 'AO' here. A PEGI 18 rating is as close to an 'Adult Only' rating that we've got.

 

Despite coming from he UK, the article references the ESRB not PEGI and uses the ESRB terminology. The post I replied to also used the ESRB terminology.

 

 


 The brood mother was rather a mixed bag.  I found the path leading up to it, with Hespith's poem and confession to be incredibly dark and creepy.  The brood mother herself...not so much.  It was a boss fight with nipples.  A lot of nipples.

 

The Grey Warden Joining was well done.  THough I turn off persistent gore so I don't know how much blood spatter is standard.

 

The poem and lead up to the brood mother was indeed very creepy. I thought the brood mother was pretty gross and the fear is more the fact that it used to be a dwarf, not the creature itself.

 

I also turn off the persistent gore because it looked so bad. It was like paint.

 

Why did my post get deleted? :(

 

It smelled bad.

 

 

And the intent in ME is frequently that of sadism, the whole point of fighting for the Quarian fleet, fighting for the end of the world, fighting for earth. If synthesis was ultimately just a byproduct of natural evolution, why were they even fighting anyway? It was just accelerated evolution, the entire purpose of ME3 is thrown away because it's all just an accelerated state, well except for all those bodies along the way to make that resolution.

 

Maybe Shepard and co. should of sat down with Sovereign for a drink and tea and conversation but instead it was all "you can't tell me what to do!" And yet he ultlimately did what they wanted anyway, but there's all sorts of random soldiers and workers that you pushed out of windows before you ultimately got to that point.

 

The ME series is literred with unnecessary conflict and drama that can only be precisely traced for an actual interest in it.

 

In fact, pretty much most of the planetary exploration and dominance post ME1 was thinly tied to an issue of borrowing of mercenary fighting for artificial body parts, but there is nothing there to condition means or ends, and even the collector's intents and goals could be conflated with those of the Reapers to the point where all you really have is a bloodbath,.

 

I mean Jon Snow escaped the Wildings with pretty much no shirt off his back, did he ever kill a single crow? No. Shepard wallows around sticking it to people left and right all for "humanity," when humanity had already agreed upon and accepted the original council and spectre organization. It's pretty hard to believe with inter-stellar light technology and communication and the flimsiest of bodyguards (Miranda who falls for you within the first half), that this couldn't have been re-arranged into something other than a full slate of domination and clubbing.

 

We don't know that Synthesis is a byproduct of natural evolution. The concept isn't brought up until the end of the game and it's presented by our enemy whose entire premise is wrong and whom I want to destroy the entire time he's talking because he's the bad guy.

 

As to the bold section, are you serious? He's supposed to sit down and converse with someone who says "You're inferior and I'm going to destroy you."? As far as Shepard ultimately doing what he wants, not really. Synthesis wasn't the plan, and likely not even a thought, when that scene was made.

 

 

The interpretation of synthesis was quite clear, it is an ultimate state, higher evolution, it was the "true third path" offered in many CnC games.

 

If the developers themselves were encouraging it, it's hard not to take it seriously as such.

 

Destruction and dominion (particularly in the absence of an alternative such synthesis) is offered clearly to denote overt sadism and the kind of traditional "evil" path offered in CnC games.

 

I say traditional because in many other games or at times such as with SWTOR the sith path can mean so many things, sometimes it's greed, sometime's it's just fulfilling a different organization's objectives, and so on and so forth.

 

The overt genocidal prospects of the Reapers were only explicit in the first game.

 

The issue of resistance and necessity is blurred because of the shifting trajectories of the games themselves, but by the end of ME3, they essentially are postulated as a non-threat.

 

Yes, Synthesis was clearly meant to be the "golden ending" but it was awful and stupid. That's one of the major problems with the ending. Just because the writers intended it to be best doesn't mean a player can't legitimately disagree and make a different choice based on non-sadistic motives. And even within the endings themselves; while I may consider even Paragon control to be extremely problematic, it's clear at least Paragon Shepard-Catalyst has honorable motivations.

 

 


If humanity and everyone had done nothing in ME3 but accept their destruction at the hands of the Reapers etc, their fate arguably did not change one iota from that point to the ultimate synthesis ending.

 

No, because Synthesis needed the Crucible.


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#768
Seraphim24

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The poem and lead up to the brood mother was indeed very creepy. I thought the brood mother was pretty gross and the fear is more the fact that it used to be a dwarf, not the creature itself.

 

We don't know that Synthesis is a byproduct of natural evolution. The concept isn't brought up until the end of the game and it's presented by our enemy whose entire premise is wrong and whom I want to destroy the entire time he's talking because he's the bad guy.

 

As to the bold section, are you serious? He's supposed to sit down and converse with someone who says "You're inferior and I'm going to destroy you."? As far as Shepard ultimately doing what he wants, not really. Synthesis wasn't the plan, and likely not even a thought, when that scene was made.

 

Yes, Synthesis was clearly meant to be the "golden ending" but it was awful and stupid. That's one of the major problems with the ending. Just because the writers intended it to be best doesn't mean a player can't legitimately disagree and make a different choice based on non-sadistic motives. And even within the endings themselves; while I may consider even Paragon control to be extremely problematic, it's clear at least Paragon Shepard-Catalyst has honorable motivations.

 

No, because Synthesis needed the Crucible.

 

I think I covered this but the Reapers and really everyone in ME underwent a transformation, yes, in ME1 world the Reapers are an ultimate threat and so on, whereas in 3 they are just these things off attacking and in reality the Citadel/spacefaring alliances are arguably not less aggressive and confrontational than their counterparts.

 

Soveriegn and Reaper are like two completely different entities, essentially, it's kind of like leadership passed from one to the other and with it their identity transformed.

 

Sovereign says you are inferior and I'm going to destroy you, Harbinger was his/her/it's infinitely more beta 2nd cousin that's all "I'm just trying to make evolution faster!"

 

You could argue that they were actually opposite though... thinking about it.....................................

 

Like, Harbinger was the one who made the Reapers confrontational and the collectors and all these micro things that were just kind of hand wavy and sort of violent and whatnot, and the Mass Effect alliances and so forth fought back in the same manner.

 

Sovereign was considerably more delicate it (might as well go with "it") operated through sleeper agents like Saren and so on, who were dedicated to accomplishing this cycle with the least, and arguably the original cycle was already a form of synthesis, just a forced one. In fact, it's entirely possible that synthesis implied a breakdown similar to the one Sovereign would of imposed on everyone at the end of ME1 had the ME1 team not gotten it all together.



#769
Natureguy85

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I think I covered this but the Reapers and really everyone in ME underwent a transformation, yes, in ME1 world the Reapers are an ultimate threat and so on, whereas in 3 they are just these things off attacking and in reality the Citadel/spacefaring alliances are arguably not less aggressive and confrontational than their counterparts.

 

Soveriegn and Reaper are like two completely different entities, essentially, it's kind of like leadership passed from one to the other and with it their identity transformed.

 

Sovereign says you are inferior and I'm going to destroy you, Harbinger was his/her/it's infinitely more beta 2nd cousin that's all "I'm just trying to make evolution faster!"

 

You could argue that they were actually opposite though... thinking about it.....................................

 

Like, Harbinger was the one who made the Reapers confrontational and the collectors and all these micro things that were just kind of hand wavy and sort of violent and whatnot, and the Mass Effect alliances and so forth fought back in the same manner.

 

Sovereign was considerably more delicate it (might as well go with "it") operated through sleeper agents like Saren and so on, who were dedicated to accomplishing this cycle with the least, and arguably the original cycle was already a form of synthesis, just a forced one.

 

My problem is that the Reapers were wildly changed but there was no transition. There was no attempt to square Harbinger and the Catalyst with Sovereign. It could have been easy too. They could have said Sovereign was crazy from having been left alone or whatever. I wouldn't like that, because I loved Sovereign and think he's way better than Harbinger or the Catalyst (I will always hate he Catalyst), but it would at least be an explanation.


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#770
Seraphim24

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No, because Synthesis needed the Crucible.

 

They could have coerced others into building the Crucible after they dominated Earth etc.



#771
Seraphim24

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My problem is that the Reapers were wildly changed but there was no transition. There was no attempt to square Harbinger and the Catalyst with Sovereign. It could have been easy too. They could have said Sovereign was crazy from having been left alone or whatever. I wouldn't like that, because I loved Sovereign and think he's way better than Harbinger or the Catalyst (I will always hate he Catalyst), but it would at least be an explanation.

 

Well then I guess we aren't so far apart after all Natureguy.

 

To be honest ME2 was the hard transition, suddenly after being this invisble deep threat with highly calculated and precise movements and attacks that risked very little for immense gains, they adopted kind of half-arsed soldier followers that had highly erratic and only intermittently successful approaches to something that seemed to be of arguable strategic necessity.

 

One made up way to say it is simply that Sovereign got owned, and it left no heirs and so the Reaper rules of succession dictated that the military wing of the Reapers be upvoted, but it was only there due to nepotism and not because of any Reaper military prowess.



#772
Seraphim24

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Well remember here also to bring it back to sadism, not saying 2 and 3 or even ME generally were monuments to sadism or something, pointed out several times before that's just not really the case, especially compared to a lot of movies.

 

The point was that it's more than in 1, which is more than in KOTOR, basically.



#773
Natureguy85

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They could have coerced others into building the Crucible after they dominated Earth etc.

 

 

The Catalyst says it thought the plans had been wiped out and it didn't really know what it did anyway. The cycle would have continued as all others did.

 

Well then I guess we aren't so far apart after all Natureguy.

 

To be honest ME2 was the hard transition, suddenly after being this invisble deep threat with highly calculated and precise movements and attacks that risked very little for immense gains, they adopted kind of half-arsed soldier followers that had highly erratic and only intermittently successful approaches to something that seemed to be of arguable strategic necessity.

 

One made up way to say it is simply that Sovereign got owned, and it left no heirs and so the Reaper rules of succession dictated that the military wing of the Reapers be upvoted, but it was only there due to nepotism and not because of any Reaper military prowess.

 

My point is that there was no transition, but rather a dramatic shift. ME2's plot was incredibly stupid.



#774
KaiserShep

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They could have coerced others into building the Crucible after they dominated Earth etc.

 

While not really reflected in the high-EMS version of the final battle, in low-EMS, the reapers are actively trying to destroy the Crucible as it's being escorted to the Citadel. If the player dillydallies too long on the decision platform, the reapers do succeed in destroying it. 


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#775
Chealec

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It's amazing how much energy people will spend debating a rating system that isn't even legally enforced. It's a purely voluntary system regulated by the video game industry. As for me, I don't care. If BioWare wants to make a kids' game, power to them. I won't buy it, but I fail to see how I could ever be harmed by its existence. If BioWare makes a game with adult themes and such, I fail to see why I should care about anyone offended by it.

 

But then I always say that kind of thing.

 

 

PEGI rating is legally enforceable in most European countries - just saying.


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