If they manage to keep the gameplay fun and story interesting, they can rate it whatever they would like.
It's not BioWare that does the rating though - they can tone the content down to aim for a specific rating but that's it. I'm sure they could do that with a Mass Effect game and keep the gameplay fun and story interesting, I'm just not sure they can do it without making the characters a bit beige though.
Well remember here also to bring it back to sadism, not saying 2 and 3 or even ME generally were monuments to sadism or something, pointed out several times before that's just not really the case, especially compared to a lot of movies.
The point was that it's more than in 1, which is more than in KOTOR, basically.
Again, then you need examples to back up this assertion.
I'm serious here, please provide concrete examples of sadism in the Mass Effect series. Failing to choose synthesis is not sadism by any definition of the word. Being "tough" isn't sadism in the Renegade context. Show us where Shepard, for no other reason than his own enjoyment, has the opportunity to go around and murder random civilians. That is the standard that KotOR sets as the norm in the context of the Star Wars universe.
They could have coerced others into building the Crucible after they dominated Earth etc.
As someone else pointed out: the Reapers do absolutely everything in their power to prevent us from attaching the Crucible to the Citadel and even when Synthesis is on the table as an option, if Shepard waits long enough, they still destroy the attachment. Not to mention, in the Refuse Scenario, even with Synthesis on the table, there's no point where the Reapers decide to force us into performing Synthesis. All indications would lead to the conclusion that the Reapers can't induce a process they themselves don't know about.
As someone else has pointed out: the Reapers do absolutely everything in their power to prevent us from attaching the Crucible to the Citadel and even when Synthesis is on the table as an option, if Shepard waits long enough, they still destroy the attachment. Not to mention, in the Refuse Scenario, even with Synthesis on the table, there's no point where the Reapers decide to force us into performing Synthesis.
"It is not something that can be...forced."
"It is not something that can be...forced."
Good point. I always found his phrasing of that odd though since the framing of Synthesis is that we're forcing everyone to accept new enhancements, regardless of whether the Reapers or Shepard are responsible.
Good point. I always found his phrasing of that odd though since the framing of Synthesis is that we're forcing everyone to accept new enhancements, regardless of whether the Reapers or Shepard are responsible.
It's just one more thing taken and misapplied from The Matrix. "Choice. The problem is choice."
Again, then you need examples to back up this assertion.
I'm serious here, please provide concrete examples of sadism in the Mass Effect series. Failing to choose synthesis is not sadism by any definition of the word. Being "tough" isn't sadism in the Renegade context. Show us where Shepard, for no other reason than his own enjoyment, has the opportunity to go around and murder random civilians. That is the standard that KotOR sets as the norm in the context of the Star Wars universe.
I'd argue shooting Balak several times when he taunts you at the end of BDTS should the player elect to chase him comes pretty close to sadism. The player is just hurting him for his own desire at point considering Balak wouldn't escape justice after he'd been apprehended.
While I generally agree with your point I'd say shoving the merc out the window in thanes recruitment quest was a bit sadistic. On a practical level he probably had to die as leaving living enemies behind you is a bad plan but shoving him out the window and dropping a bad ass one liner while awesome may have edged into sadism.
You're absolutely right (sidetrack: I actually love that ME2 moment, cheesy as it is).
But as a mitigating factor, I (think I) briefly mentioned on the last page that if we're comparing two clearly sadistic acts, then a sense of scale could be used to discern differing degrees of sadism.
So in ME2, that's definitely an instance of sadism on Shepard's part, but in a general context if I remember right, these are also guys who are murdering innocent employees in Nassana Dantius' penthouse/trying to kill Shepard anyway.
By contrast, KotOR's sadism doesn't really rely on that kind of mitigating factor; quite often, the people we're killing aren't criminals, or evil men, etc, they're just innocents trying to eek out an existence.
In short: I think it's very accurate to say there are instances of sadism in Mass Effect, but that as an overall trend, the sadism is down-played, directed towards someone who is relatively evil, etc, relative to KotOR where Dark Side morality is oriented almost entirely around causing as much pain as possible.
I'd argue shooting Balak several times when he taunts you at the end of BDTS should the player elect to chase him comes pretty close to sadism. The player is just hurting him for his own desire at point considering Balak wouldn't escape justice after he'd been apprehended.
You're absolutely right (sidetrack: I actually love that ME2 moment, cheesy as it is).
But as a mitigating factor, I (think I) briefly mentioned on the last page that if we're comparing two clearly sadistic acts, then a sense of scale could be used to discern differing degrees of sadism.
So in ME2, that's definitely an instance of sadism on Shepard's part, but in a general context if I remember right, these are also guys who are murdering innocent employees in Nassana Dantius' penthouse/trying to kill Shepard anyway.
By contrast, KotOR's sadism doesn't really rely on that kind of mitigating factor; quite often, the people we're killing aren't criminals, or evil men, etc, they're just innocents trying to eek out an existence.
In short: I think it's very accurate to say there are instances of sadism in Mass Effect, but that as an overall trend, the sadism is down-played, directed towards someone who deserves it, etc.
That's a great way to put it. "Street justice" is exactly how I think we could describe those ME moments.
I don't remember a capture option. I thought it was let him go or kill him. Ah well time to play me1 again
Once you defeat Balak you get three options,1. Shoot him on the spot. 2. Leave him to bleed to death. 3. Capture him for the Alliance. Before you decide his fate there are two options to shoot Balak to wound him further.
Once you defeat Balak you get three options,1. Shoot him on the spot. 2. Leave him to bleed to death. 3. Capture him for the Alliance. Before you make decide his fate there are two options to shoot Balak to wound him further.
I totally forgot that. Another reason why that is an awesome DLC. They should use multiple stage endings like that more often.
Stage one let him go or take him down. Stage 2 If choose take him down how do you do it? It adds another level to define your character and develop the story.
Again, then you need examples to back up this assertion.
I'm serious here, please provide concrete examples of sadism in the Mass Effect series. Failing to choose synthesis is not sadism by any definition of the word. Being "tough" isn't sadism in the Renegade context. Show us where Shepard, for no other reason than his own enjoyment, has the opportunity to go around and murder random civilians. That is the standard that KotOR sets as the norm in the context of the Star Wars universe.
Believe I already explained this but renegade Shepard isn't tough at all, it's a severe misconception of tough as the person who disagrees with everyone and just laughs in their face and punches them in the head or whatever for little more than his own amusement or because he/she has a gun. If you need actual death 1:27 works..
It's actually very easy to disagree with people and find the tiniest reasons to not agree with them, it's a challenge to find common ground.
The developers built in a peace option in every single choice in ME2.
Pretty sure I didn't pick Renegade a single time in ME2, in ME1 when it just ment kind of a civil disagreement or so was more palatable at times (such as Council vs Sovereign, which felt more like a choice of strategy and tactics), thus probably chose it a number of times can't recall exactly.
Not sure what your basis is for the part about KOTOR killing civilians being some meta-evil that nothing in ME could top. ME3 you can genocide an entire race of people (which, well, includes civilians, such as Krogan mothers that do not leave their home world), from the ME wiki
"Female krogan rarely leave their home worlds, focusing on breeding in an attempt to keep krogan numbers from declining too quickly. The few remaining fertile females who can carry young to term are treated as prizes of war, to be seized, bartered or fought over."
That's how I see it as well. The sadism is ME is more street justice style than muahahah evil style. And it's still pretty infrequent.
Muahahha evil style is still better than street justice, which is really more like just random wanton violence with the justice label attached.
Curious observation I must report... the BSN and Bioware's fanbase must be the first time I've ever seen where the fans almost seems to hate the company or something, why is this? Is it not the company you support and the games you enjoy?
For all your attempts to defend ME for some reason this has to come at the expense of KOTOR, it's starting to strain belief that you really are a fan of these company's games at all. If you played KOTOR obviously you must of liked something about it? It's also equally hard to believe that a game made by the same company 3-4-5 years later would really be so different conceptually. The company and their history and values did not begin and end between ME1 and ME3.
As I've said many times it's a solid franchise and all despite the things that I disliked in 2 and 3, still played them well enough, keeping an eye on Andromeda here and there, in some ways, not sure they've made their best game yet, or perhaps, the best is yet to come.
Believe I already explained this but renegade Shepard isn't tough at all, it's a severe misconception of tough as the person who disagrees with everyone and just laughs in their face and punches them in the head or whatever for little more than his own amusement or because he/she has a gun.
Whatever we want to call it, it's still not sadism, at least not remotely on KotOR's scale.
The developers built in a peace option in every single choice in ME2.
Not sure I'm following on this point.
ot sure what your basis is for the part about KOTOR killing civilians being some meta-evil that nothing in ME could top. ME3 you can genocide an entire race of people (which, well, includes civilians, such as Krogan mothers that do not leave their home world), from the ME wiki
This is what I've been going over: genocide isn't by definition sadism. Sadism is pleasure via the suffering of others. There is no point in Mass Effect, that I am aware of, that you have the ability to simply start hurting innocent people "just because". It's always framed in some sort of greater good context.
Once more: that is the standard that KotOR relies on and the one we have to meet to talk about Mass Effect being more sadistic than KotOR's protagonist.
Muahahha evil style is still better than street justice, which is really more like just random wanton violence with the justice label attached.
Well..no, it's not. Are you really going to argue that someone who walks around killing and torturing indiscriminately is equivalent to someone who focuses all their energy on criminals, murders, and greater good justifications? Because that's going to be a pretty tough sell, from any moral perspective, which was what my point is based on.
Curious observation I must report... the BSN and Bioware's fanbase must be the first time I've ever seen where the fans almost seems to hate the company or something, why is this? Is it not the company you support and the games you enjoy?
For all your attempts to defend ME for some reason this has to come at the expense of KOTOR, it's starting to strain belief that you really are a fan of these company's games at all. If you played KOTOR obviously you must of liked something about it? It's also equally hard to believe that a game made by the same company 3-4-5 years later would really be so different conceptually. The company and their history and values did not begin and end between ME1 and ME3.
As I've said many times it's a solid franchise and all despite the things that I disliked in 2 and 3, still played them well enough, keeping an eye on Andromeda here and there, in some ways, not sure they've made their best game yet, or perhaps, the best is yet to come.
This is what I've been going over: genocide isn't by definition sadism. Sadism is pleasure via the suffering of others. There is no point in Mass Effect, that I am aware of, that you have the ability to simply start hurting innocent people "just because". It's always framed in some sort of greater good context.
Once more: that is the standard that KotOR relies on and the one we have to meet to talk about Mass Effect being more sadistic than KotOR's protagonist.
What?! There is no reason not to not genocide the Krogan in ME3, none whatsoever. It was a consequence of biological warfare between Turian Krogan which was a consequence of Salarian imperialism and their own warfare and issues.
Anyway, there isn't going to be a point if you re-contextualize every single example into not pointless violence until we only have people who go "I LIKE PAIN MWHAHAHAH" in a kind of Maleficent sort of way.
Do you really think most people just go "IM JUST KILLIN FOR FUN" Of course not! It's up to people to call out their faux-justifications.
Really sadism isn't even right the term it's like I was saying just wanton random violence.
Edited: For "most"
Who said Kotor was bad?
I liked the game quite a bit even bought the PC version once it hit steam. But I recognize that dark side is evil for evils sake. That's not a knock on the game that is a accurate reflection of the source material.
As much as I love Star Wars the light side/dark side thing was pretty bad. But at least it's kind of justified in universe as it almost acts as a sentient corrupting force turning you into the mustache twirling villain as you cave into various impulses.
The dark/light thing in Star Wars is really uneven in my experience, in SWTOR for instance it can mean anything from
A) Greedy
B )Upholding the true Sith code
C) Upholding the Empire's decisions and regulations
At times it's actually pretty cool, the ability to kind of disagree and not go along with every little quest givers assertions or attempt to re-organize you into something else. Like there was this Balmorran quest where the general breaks his agreement and is like help my sith lord son break out and it's like screw this.
Whatever the issues it still wallops Renegade/Paragon in ME outside of 1 and even possibly then.
What?! There is no reason not to not genocide the Krogan in ME3, none whatsoever. It was a consequence of biological warfare between Turian Krogan which was a consequence of Salarian imperialism and their own warfare and issues.
Anyway, there isn't going to be a point if you re-contextualize every single example into not pointless violence until we only have people who go "I LIKE PAIN MWHAHAHAH" in a kind of Maleficent sort of way.
Do you really think any person or anyone in the universe will just go "IM JUST KILLIN FOR FUN" Of course not! It's up to people to call out their faux-justifications.
Really sadism isn't even right the term it's like I was saying just wanton random violence.
Seriously, he's not the one re-contextualizing anything. He's using the correct definition of the word, which you are ignoring, as usual.
There are plenty of people, real and fictional, who kill or hurt others for the sake of killing, for the pleasure of it.
The Joker in Batman is one example.
Who said Kotor was bad?
I liked the game quite a bit even bought the PC version once it hit steam. But I recognize that dark side is evil for evils sake. That's not a knock on the game that is a accurate reflection of the source material.
As much as I love Star Wars the light side/dark side thing was pretty bad. But at least it's kind of justified in universe as it almost acts as a sentient corrupting force turning you into the mustache twirling villain as you cave into various impulses.
Along with Jade Empire, probably my favorite Bioware game.
Seriously, he's not the one re-contextualizing anything. He's using the correct definition of the word, which are you ignoring, as usual.
There are plenty of people, real and fictional, who kill or hurt others for the sake of killing, for the pleasure of it.
The Joker in Batman is one example.
I was going to talk about that but since that's kind of a whole nother topic with separate conclusions and ideas, instead I just edited my post to say "most."
What?! There is no reason not to not genocide the Krogan in ME3, none whatsoever. It was a consequence of biological warfare between Turian Krogan which was a consequence of Salarian imperialism and their own warfare and issues.
Anyway, there isn't going to be a point if you re-contextualize every single example into not pointless violence until we only have people who go "I LIKE PAIN MWHAHAHAH" in a kind of Maleficent sort of way.
Do you really think any person or anyone in the universe will just go "IM JUST KILLIN FOR FUN" Of course not! It's up to people to call out their faux-justifications.
Really sadism isn't even right the term it's like I was saying just wanton random violence.
Once more,
KotOR example: Going around killing random people/civilians for the hell of it.
Mass Effect example: Preventing the genophage from being undone because you might need more military support in the face of murderous genocidal robots, since (at this point in the story) the Salarians are threatening to pick up their ball and go home.
The two scenarios are not equivalent in terms of moral depravity. That's not re contextualizing, that's using the exact context the game gives you.
Retour en haut