836 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

Once more,

 

KotOR example: Going around killing random people/civilians for the hell of it.

 

Mass Effect example: Preventing the genophage from being undone because you might need more military support in the face of murderous genocidal robots, since (at this point in the story) the Salarians are threatening to pick up their ball and go home.

 

The two scenarios are not equivalent in terms of moral depravity. That's not re contextualizing, that's using the exact context the game gives you. 

 

And that's not being a renegade, I don't take the exact context the game gives me, I take it and then interpet or re-interpet as I will or in line with what seems most logical or best fit, which sometimes may be taking it exactly as it is.

 

The Salarians threaten but they don't leave, it's the same as in ME1, not killing Wrex doesn't diminish your place at all, it's meant to test your limits.

[Il Divo]

And that's not being a renegrade, I don't take the exact context the game gives me, I take it and then interpet or re-interpet as I will or in line with what seems most logical or best fit.

 

Well, this part at least has been made abundantly clear.

 

But given that this is all being referenced in the context of which game portrays a more sadistic PC, which was the original point, it's becoming more clear that you haven't provided those examples. 

[Seraphim24]

Along with Jade Empire, probably my favorite Bioware game. 

 

Well, this part at least has been made abundantly clear.

 

How dare I! I suppose.

 

Not really sure we are going very many places at this point, so let me just ask if it's your favorite Bioware game than coudl you care to explain why it's your favorite so we don't have to make this a thread entirely about criticism? Eh? Just for fun?

 

Besides that game was rated T right? This thread could be like should Bioware make the move back to T for teen in some ways.

[Il Divo]

Not really sure we are going very many places at this point, so let me just ask if it's your favorite Bioware game than coudl you care to explain why it's your favorite so we don't have to make this a thread entirely about criticism? Eh? Just for fun?

 

Well, it was my first followed by Jade Empire so that's a huge point for it, even though that's an appeal to nostalgia. 

 

General factors:

 

-I love the Star Wars universe and the fact that it functions as a love letter to the original trilogy even just in terms of the plot twist.

-the synched combat animations

-the diverse locations/mission objectives (Manaan is beautiful and one of my favorite Bioware levels)

-Ignoring Mission, it had one of my favorite Bioware casts, DA:O aside. 

-enjoyable side quests (Jedi Murder Investigation on Dantooine, Sunry Murder trial especially were a lot of fun)

-very little wandering/down time in the sense of open world exploration; the game seems devoted to a more focused narrative experience.

 

I try not to go fan boy heavy about it, because I realize the game is old and has quite a few faults to compensate; the Star Forge for example was not enjoyable for me as a final mission, in the context of the rest of the game, but in a nut shell, those are my reasons. 

[slimgrin]

Are people really still arguing for more teenybopper games? 

[Seraphim24]

-the synched combat animations

 

The combat and abilities were a lot of fun.

[Elhanan]

Are people really still arguing for more teenybopper games?

Because while I prefer mature stories and themes, these are often possible and included in teen reading assignments. But I do not like what is entitled as some Mature content (ie; language, nudity, excessive sexual material), as it is often unneeded to tell such adult stories. IMO, of course.

[Natureguy85]

 

Believe I already explained this but renegade Shepard isn't tough at all, it's a severe misconception of tough as the person who disagrees with everyone and just laughs in their face and punches them in the head or whatever for little more than his own amusement or because he/she has a gun. If you need actual death 1:27 works..

 

It's actually very easy to disagree with people and find the tiniest reasons to not agree with them, it's a challenge to find common ground.

 

The developers built in a peace option in every single choice in ME2.

 

Pretty sure I didn't pick Renegade a single time in ME2, in ME1 when it just ment kind of a civil disagreement or so was more palatable at times (such as Council vs Sovereign, which felt more like a choice of strategy and tactics), thus probably chose it a number of times can't recall exactly.

 

Not sure what your basis is for the part about KOTOR killing civilians being some meta-evil that nothing in ME could top. ME3 you can genocide an entire race of people (which, well, includes civilians, such as Krogan mothers that do not leave their home world), from the ME wiki

 

"Female krogan rarely leave their home worlds, focusing on breeding in an attempt to keep krogan numbers from declining too quickly. The few remaining fertile females who can carry young to term are treated as prizes of war, to be seized, bartered or fought over."

 

 

Muahahha evil style is still better than street justice, which is really more like just random wanton violence with the justice label attached.

 

Most of that is exactly what it says on the title: Shepard being a jerk. It is not sadism, following the definition of that word. The only examples I can think of are pushing the Merc out the window (and even there you could argue that you worry he will attack you.) and purposely leaving the Council to die because you don't like them.

 

Curious observation I must report... the BSN and Bioware's fanbase must be the first time I've ever seen where the fans almost seems to hate the company or something, why is this? Is it not the company you support and the games you enjoy?

 

For all your attempts to defend ME for some reason this has to come at the expense of KOTOR, it's starting to strain belief that you really are a fan of these company's games at all. If you played KOTOR obviously you must of liked something about it? It's also equally hard to believe that a game made by the same company 3-4-5 years later would really be so different conceptually. The company and their history and values did not begin and end between ME1 and ME3.

 

As I've said many times it's a solid franchise and all despite the things that I disliked in 2 and 3, still played them well enough, keeping an eye on Andromeda here and there, in some ways, not sure they've made their best game yet, or perhaps, the best is yet to come.

 

Because we see bad trends in later games and want them to return to what was awesome in the past. Being a fan doesn't mean you like everything.

 

 

 

What?! There is no reason not to not genocide the Krogan in ME3, none whatsoever. It was a consequence of biological warfare between Turian Krogan which was a consequence of Salarian imperialism and their own warfare and issues.

 

Anyway, there isn't going to be a point if you re-contextualize every single example into not pointless violence until we only have people who go "I LIKE PAIN MWHAHAHAH" in a kind of Maleficent sort of way.

 

Do you really think most people just go "IM JUST KILLIN FOR FUN" Of course not! It's up to people to call out their faux-justifications.

 

Really sadism isn't even right the term it's like I was saying just wanton random violence.

 

Edited: For "most"

 

Some do, some don't. It depends on the story.

 

 

And that's not being a renegade, I don't take the exact context the game gives me, I take it and then interpet or re-interpet as I will or in line with what seems most logical or best fit, which sometimes may be taking it exactly as it is.

 

The Salarians threaten but they don't leave, it's the same as in ME1, not killing Wrex doesn't diminish your place at all, it's meant to test your limits.

 

You're meta-gaming. You know the outcome and are using hindsight to evaluate the decision. Look at it based on what you know at the time.

[chem light]

I think they should write the story the best they can and whatever rating gets assigned, gets assigned.  This isn't Pac Man.  The average age of gamers is well over 18.  And if parents really want their kids to be able to play, they could always take my brother's approachs and SIT IN THE ROOM WITH THEM.  Especially in ME:1, you didn't see much cussing or sexual interaction unless you went looking for it.

[Seraphim24]

Most of that is exactly what it says on the title: Shepard being a jerk. It is not sadism, following the definition of that word. The only examples I can think of are pushing the Merc out the window (and even there you could argue that you worry he will attack you.) and purposely leaving the Council to die because you don't like them.

 

 

Because we see bad trends in later games and want them to return to what was awesome in the past. Being a fan doesn't mean you like everything.

 

 

 

 

Some do, some don't. It depends on the story.

 

 

 

You're meta-gaming. You know the outcome and are using hindsight to evaluate the decision. Look at it based on what you know at the time.

 

ME2 renegade Shepard is bad, ME3 on the whole has a lot of bad things. ME1 was the series where it was more about union and consensus and the discussions of justice had real meaning, and conversely gave renegade options more meaning.

 

ME2 turns Shepard into a cartoon mustache-twirling villian for the most part, 3 just carries off into a deep territory period, ending aside.

 

Sorry to be short with your responses, but it's just not something I really want to spend anymore time on overall SWTOR has a much better overall system with the light/dark and I'd rather just play that than spend more time on ME, especially not really knowing what direction they'll end up going.

 

You're meta-gaming. You know the outcome and are using hindsight to evaluate the decision. Look at it based on what you know at the time.

 

I saved Wrex the first, second, every time. I'm guessing you didn't though. It wasn't even close actually, to the point where I was surprised that the option to take him out even showed up at all.

 

The only time I meta-gamed in the whole series was Council/Sovereign, because at that point it seemed like you were possibly sacrificing, well, like, everything lol (like you don't get to Sovereign in time and it just destroys everything and ends the game), and so when I learned you can save the council with no repercussions I was like well might as well just do that then.

 

I also waited a long time on Ashley/Kaidan, like it took some time and energy, but it also was pretty obvious that Ashley was going to be the right choice to save from the outset, and I was just coming to terms with that I suppose, and because the game made clear from the beginning the nature of the choice (one or the other) there was no need to metagame. Virmire on the whole was obviously the highpoint of the entire trilogy.

 

I'm not going to castigate ME2 and 3 more than I already have, it's unbecoming, suffice to say because I didn't really feel the same level of investment in the choices and outcomes I more or less just treated it like I do most games, more like a rail shooter or silly wild west kind of experience or something.

 

I mean to be completely honest mustache twirling cartoon villains are not even like my worst thing, like Boris and Natasha from Rocky and Bullwinkle it was like kind of so bad on one hand but still more fun than a lot of things.

 

And it's kind of a goofy fun wild west sort of game in some ways, almost like if someone made a Han Solo spinoff, that's what ME2 felt like.

[008Zulu]

No. The series thus far is written that way, and if you try to make it something it isn't, you get things like Dungeon Keeper Mobile.

[slimgrin]

Because while I prefer mature stories and themes, these are often possible and included in teen reading assignments. But I do not like what is entitled as some Mature content (ie; language, nudity, excessive sexual material), as it is often unneeded to tell such adult stories. IMO, of course.

 

Which is an argument for inundating the market with more homogenized content that's supposed to appeal to both. No thanks. I have Hollywood if I want mindless, family-friendly content. In the mean time, I'll advocate for adult rated and teen rated games. Feel free to enjoy the latter.  

[wolfhowwl]

The audience for "core" games is skewed towards older gamers. Going for a T-rating doesn't even make sense from a "wider audience" business perspective.

[Seraphim24]

The audience for "core" games is skewed towards older gamers. Going for a T-rating doesn't even make sense from a "wider audience" business perspective.

 

Screw the business perspective.

[Lady Artifice]

Good point. Thank you. This was the kind of discussion I was hoping for when I asked that. 

 

As for the underlined, seriously? That is pretty much the exact opposite of what a kimono is supposed to represent. It's like saying dress attire indicates promiscuity. 

 

Seriously. It's one of the reasons I have such strong feelings about this. 

 

It's things like the comics code, and the more strict ratings standards, that have historically led to writers needing to use "creative" subtextual means to get ideas across. Instead of just presenting a character, they use vague allusions and references to give the audience the general idea. One of the issues there is that those subtextual indicators are always influenced by ideas and presumptions that are usually very specific to certain cultures.  At the time, Asian culture wasn't even remotely understood by Hollywood. It was this exotic, mystical thing. It's partially why there were so many villains built around asian stereotypes. 

 

Thing is, those subtextual signals in media don't really stand the test of time either. Nowadays, how many of us would even consider a woman in a kimono to mean much of anything? 

 

Writers need to be able to represent a character's nature freely, at least most of the time, or else you end up with more of that kind of weirdness. 

 

Wanting to avoid stricter ratings system is not necessarily an indicator of immaturity, Hanako. I wish that you wouldn't seem to interpret it that way so much. 

[Elhanan]

Which is an argument for inundating the market with more homogenized content that's supposed to appeal to both. No thanks. I have Hollywood if I want mindless, family-friendly content. In the mean time, I'll advocate for adult rated and teen rated games. Feel free to enjoy the latter.

Hollywood is far from Family Friendly. And I recall reading many mature materials in HS, including some classic tales of horror, mystery, etc. It is highly feasible to create mature content without having a Mature label to explain the offensive language and sexuality.

[Angry_Elcor]

PEGI rating is legally enforceable in most European countries - just saying.

 

ESRB and PEGI ratings are both voluntary systems. Neither is legally binding, they are considered "advice for consumers." They were created to avoid having legally binding ratings systems because the industry was afraid of the profit impact of being unable to sell games based on age.

 

I am unaware of any EU members who legally enforce PEGI. The website says that the system is voluntary using similar language to the ESRB.

[AlanC9]

I saved Wrex the first, second, every time. I'm guessing you didn't though. It wasn't even close actually, to the point where I was surprised that the option to take him out even showed up at all.

Every time? Do you always throw lots of points into the speech skills?
 

I also waited a long time on Ashley/Kaidan, like it took some time and energy, but it also was pretty obvious that Ashley was going to be the right choice to save from the outset, and I was just coming to terms with that I suppose, and because the game made clear from the beginning the nature of the choice (one or the other) there was no need to metagame. Virmire on the whole was obviously the highpoint of the entire trilogy.

In what sense is Ash the "right choice"? Besides LI aspects, of course.

[Ahglock]

Every time? Do you always throw lots of points into the speech skills?


In what sense is Ash the "right choice"? Besides LI aspects, of course.

Kaiden's a putz.

[Natureguy85]

Every time? Do you always throw lots of points into the speech skills?
 

In what sense is Ash the "right choice"? Besides LI aspects, of course.

 

That wouldn't matter on a new game+. Also, he will automatically stand down if you've retrieved his family armor.

[Lady Artifice]

In what sense is Ash the "right choice"? Besides LI aspects, of course.

 

That's what bothered you? Not "Virmire was obviously the high point of the trilogy"?

[AlanC9]

That wouldn't matter on a new game+. Also, he will automatically stand down if you've retrieved his family armor.

True; I didn't figure that he'd do the quests in the same order every time either.

[AlanC9]

That's what bothered you? Not "Virmire was obviously the high point of the trilogy"?

I had no idea how to respond to that part.

[Seraphim24]

Every time? Do you always throw lots of points into the speech skills?
 

 

Of course, all the prior Bioware games emphasized the importance of maxing out the persuasion/charm skill or whatever, maxed it whenever possible.

 

Unlike most games, you got pretty hefty rewards and bonuses for being skilled with the dialogue.

 

In what sense is Ash the "right choice"? Besides LI aspects, of course.

 

Ashley and Kaidan are both interesting and capable characters, but the difference between Kaidan and Ashley is there was this kind of slight holding back on Kaidan's part, like he was slightly more acquiescent, the kind of jovial cool contrast to Ashley's flair.

 

Essentially, it boiled down to which person seemed more likely to view their death as part of a heroic sacrifice of some kind or another, Ashley was equally likely to view it as a soldier's responsibility to sacrifice herself in battle, but yeah it was just some part of Kaidan deep in the back sphere of his persona that made for that difference. It's not that either of them would of wanted that fate, but, forced to pick between them.

[Chealec]

I am unaware of any EU members who legally enforce PEGI.

 

The UK - since 2012 it's held the same weight as the BBFC rating.

 

There are a few others as well:

https://en.wikipedia...re_PEGI_is_used