836 réponses à ce sujet

[Former_Fiend]

It would make for a better topic though...

 

I don't know. So far I'm winning this topic, far as I can tell.

[DaemionMoadrin]

I don't know. So far I'm winning this topic, far as I can tell.

 

Oh, what's the first prize?

[Former_Fiend]

Oh, what's the first prize?

 

I'll have to ask dreamgazer.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Which scenario is analogous to Virmire in that one to you?

Let's also take it up a notch and discuss the Ascension-human dilemma.
 

Elaborate.

The Onderon Civil War choice. The faction you side with will destroy the faction you side against. That's worse than either Virmire or the Ascension-human dilemmas. The Virmire choice was completely ridiculous since there were several ways you could have saved both, but you can't because drama. 

 

For me it just comes back to this four letter word; tone.

 

These games have a very adult tone. They deal with adult fear, adult hate, adult love. 

 

And I think if you take away a lot of the elements that help make the world that way; the sexual content and themes, the language, the alcohol, then at best what you can do is turn out a fairly well written story that just does not feel true to life because it doesn't have a voice to it. It becomes something that has to be constructed around the limitations of it's rating and doesn't feel real. It doesn't feel true to life.

 

In the other thread, when we're talking about swearing, the claim is made that you can use non-swear words to convey the same emotions as swear words, just making them unnecessary. To an extent that is true in that it is physically possible, but it also isn't very true to life. You can write a character who can get all their points across with words that are going to send your audience to thesaurus.com as well as they could with a tirade of expletives, but the tirade of expletives is going to have something the more verbose character wouldn't; they're going to feel authentic.  It could give you something like Michael Pena's character in Ant-Man, which works for a comedy but doesn't work with a more serious tone.

 

That's just one example. The point is, these games need to be rated M to maintain a mature, adult tone. That's where the believably of the series comes from. It isn't in the ridiculous technology fueled by unobtanium. It's in the authenticity of the characters, and that comes from things that they couldn't get away with on a T rating.

Completely disagree. 

[AlanC9]

Completely disagree.

An actual argument there would be nice.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

An actual argument there would be nice.

Simply put, there are T games that pull off mature, adult tones better than M games. Everything that is important to establishing that tone is not things that require said game to have an M rating. 

[Kierro Ren]

No, keep it M, hell I'd love to see DA:I style nudity in ME:A. Keep it M... PLEASE keep it M...please? But I really want to blow people up like ME3, they freaking exploded into bloody chunks, do a head shot the head exploded with blood squirts.

[Former_Fiend]

 

The Onderon Civil War choice. The faction you side with will destroy the faction you side against. That's worse than either Virmire or the Ascension-human dilemmas. The Virmire choice was completely ridiculous since there were several ways you could have saved both, but you can't because drama. 

 

Completely disagree. 

 

 

I understand you sticking to your guns, but some of the points I'm making aren't matters of opinion, they're objective facts.

 

Not necessarily in regards to quality; you can argue the quality would be just as good at a T rated game and that would be your opinion that you're free to.

 

But tone is a somewhat quantifiable aspect. It's part of the science of storytelling.

 

You can argue that the games would be better or just as good, but you can't argue they'd have the same tone. You can argue that the new tone would be more to your preference and I could disagree with you, but you can't tell me that the thing that I want to preserve about these games is preservable on a t-rating.

[LightningPoodle]

Simply put, there are T games that pull off mature, adult tones better than M games. Everything that is important to establishing that tone is not things that require said game to have an M rating.

Can you list those games? More specifically, can you list the RPGS?

[dreamgazer]

The Onderon Civil War choice. The faction you side with will destroy the faction you side against. That's worse than either Virmire or the Ascension-human dilemmas. The Virmire choice was completely ridiculous since there were several ways you could have saved both, but you can't because drama. 

Hm. Interesting example, and I can partly agree, but I don't recall that decision emphasizing death and sacrifice the same way Virmire and the Ascension choices both do. That "drama" aspect, the tone, is a big part of the M rating. Granted, it has been a while since I've played it.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

Oh, what's the first prize?

 

First prize is a Cadillac El Dorado. Anyone wanna see second prize? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired.  :-D

 

 

This speech is an excellent example of why watering down mature content can destroy an effective moment of dramatic tension.  Try watching this version and then Google the censored version.  There's no way you can tell the same mature stories from a Mature game under a T-For-Teens label.

[dreamgazer]

Screw that, we're being theme appropriate. First prize is a private dance from Kelly Chambers.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

I'll buy that for a dollar.  Will it come with a "no underwear DLC"?

[dreamgazer]

I'll buy that for a dollar.  Will it come with a "no underwear DLC"?

I heard there will be a toggle. Semi-confirmed rumor.

[Br3admax]

Screw that, we're being theme appropriate. First prize is a private dance from Kelly Chambers.

Look at her spread scale itch all over that poor console. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Look at her spread scale itch all over that poor console. 

Nobody is spreading scale itch. The 'implications unpleasant' that Mordin refers to is the implication that scale itch is evolving to be spread by other means, like being airborne. 

[dreamgazer]

Look at her spread scale itch all over that poor console.

We've talked about this, whole grain.

[Br3admax]

It's not my fault your waifu's a total skank.  

Nobody is spreading scale itch. The 'implications unpleasant' that Mordin refers to is the implication that scale itch is evolving to be spread by other means, like being airborne. 

 

You know, dreamgazer and I have talked about this since I joined BSN years ago, and you're the first person who felt the need to jump in and actually take the comment seriously. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

The console users are the majority, and there is very few mods out there that work for them.

That's the fault of the console makers, and console players should absolutely care about that.

I request it, I support it because I can actually use mods. It's not up to "every player," it's up to us on PC to get those views out there.

Which I'm trying to do, both by mentioning it directly, and by moving the margins of public opinion on the topic.

[Panda]

So what would change in game? Less graphic violence? Well ME is not really gore and I don't remember seeing any violence that would have disturbed me (and I actually get disturbed by violence by time to time) so I don't see point lessening it. Profanity, well there is so little cursing in North American games anyways. I hate profanity filter this forums have, I'm finnish and I'm not used to not having curse words thrown around, teen shows my country are full of them, only children shows don't have profanity. Sexual themes? So would this mean that we would get tons of fanservice like buttshots and other childish things, but not classy sex scene?

 

I really wonder what would be better if rating dropped.

[Gothfather]

I want ME:A to be more mature not less. one of the things that the original series failed at was stepping beyond the games as 'power fantasies' and if there was ever a series that Bioware needed to take a step away from the 'power fantasy' it was ME. The whole theme is about a struggle against overwhelming odds, yet the games story progression and mechanics all work at cross purposes to this theme. You go from victory to victory from the moment you wake up in a Cerberus facility in ME2 of which the vast majority of them are cost free victories, no more virmires and from that point on you can go the entire game with no casualties. In ME3 you can go the entire game with only 2 or 3 scripted deaths, none of which is a direct result of the reapers. For an overwhelming force the reapers were incredibly ineffectual against Shepard or the crew of the Normandy.  By the time you get to priority earth you don't feel this is a desperate ploy, 'our one chance to save the galaxy,' as the player because the 'power fantasy' was exploited fully within the game's mechanics and pacing. You get to earth thinking "I got this." Which is the exact opposite feeling you should have for the theme and story you are told, operation hammer is an even more desperate ploy then the original plan but you don't feel it at all, it a meh moment because the narrative doesn't match the game play. The game tells you the reapers are insignificant because you never lose to them after the Me2 prologue.

 

I want Bioware to explore more mature storytelling where the 'power fantasy' isn't the story within the story being told. The power fantasy isn't the only way to tell good narratives in games. The power fantasy doesn't work in a horror genre or a survival game because if you feel kick ass then you don't fret about survival or you don't feel scared. If bioware wants to tell more mature stories they need the freedom of a mature rating.

 

There is so much more to mature then profanity and bewbs, bioware often touches on mature topics as well, the genophage probably couldn't have been told in a teen version of ME or at least the option to continue a slow genocide of the krogen in ME3 would not likely pass a teen rating. 

[wright1978]

No i want an adult story, with an adult mature tating.

[PhroXenGold]

I wouldn't mind the game being "suitable for teens", if the criteria was based on what teens are actually like, not what the censors think they're like. Sex and nudity? Yep, teenagers know plenty about that. What do you think they use the internet for? Violence? Again, nothing new for them. Swearing? Hell, the probably know more swear words than most adults.

 

I'd certainly prefer BW use a more mature style of storytelling that the "wham bam in your face" styel that is typically associated with "teens", but that certainly wouldn't make it unsuitable for teenagers, just maybe not so much towards their tastes.

[Guanxii]

Fishing is best done at the lake imo. 

 

It's all a matter of perspective... do you see BioWare as cotemporaries of Rockstar & HBO et al. or Disney Lucas Arts, Pixar & Marvel?

 

We need studios who are going to raise the bar and break doors down but we also need studios who can broaden the appeal of AAA gaming to wider audiences. Everything in the middle falls down the cracks. BioWare need to pick a side and run with it.

[rapscallioness]

Yeah, whereas I know Dreamgazer is not being serious in this request, I have to say honestly BW is timid and skittish enough.

 

I want BW less skittish. The thing is, BW addresses difficult and mature situations within the narrative, but then they hide it behind a wall of codex or some random notes on the ground.

 

It's in the story, but not in the art, or visual aspect of the game. I don't need to see and experience every gruesome detail, but the visuals need to match the narrative. This is a visual, interactive medium of storytelling. If there's a brutal war supposedly going on, I don't want to be skipping through a sun dappled landscape chasing fluffy bunny rabbits.

 

Too often what they're showing us does not match what they're telling us. I think ME2 made an improvement on this. Pragia was rainy and dark. The place looked rather creepy. Omega had a bit of slum with...slumming Vorcha. ME3 worked towards it as well by showing the Citadel hospital with more and more refugees and injured in it. I want them to keep going in that direction. It does not need to be over the top, but their stories deal with some difficult and mature themes. I want their visual style to support their story.

 

The DA series is really the worst offender in this area.

 

And I don't think it has much to do with ratings and maturity actually. It has to do with consistency and cohesion between the story and the visual representation of it.