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I guess it's quite purely for finishing moves then. Cause the violence in Reckoning is very straight-forward, no torturing, no psychological or sexual violence, no slavery etc. Bunch of fantasy things to kill at, most of evil guys even immortal lore-wise so even if you kill them you know they didn't die permanently. I don't think there even was lot of adult themes or adult tone in the game ^^; And the suggestive themes in the books.. I have to say I missed those completely 
I'll argue the same goes for ToR. Given how much the Sith Inquisitor can shock and torture people in over half of their quests as a Dark Side, which kinda becomes almost cartoonish (My thoughts: "You're wearing white after Labor Day?" Zap!, +10 DS. "Oh, you refuse to bow low enough?" Zap! +10 DS) it surprises me a little that it got the rating that it did. My guess is because there isn't very much gore/blood, and no strong language.
Agreed. I can't speak directly to TOR (haven't played it yet), but I think it demonstrates that the rating system can itself be flawed. The F word or a bit of side boob can get a game an M rating. But games like KotOR which let you roleplay a sadistic murdering psychopath are exempt?
This is from the PEGI rating site. I tried to find a better description from the PEGI site, but I was unable to find one. So I apologize that it's so short:
Pegi relies more on using icons to describe content than just a letter for an age group and more elaborate text descriptions, more information is usually available by looking at what icons is given to a game, such as drug use, sexual themes, violence etc.
There's also a pretty decent guide on what each age number actually stands for here : http://www.pegi.info/en/index/id/33/
I guess it's quite purely for finishing moves then. Cause the violence in Reckoning is very straight-forward, no torturing, no psychological or sexual violence, no slavery etc. Bunch of fantasy things to kill at, most of evil guys even immortal lore-wise so even if you kill them you know they didn't die permanently. I don't think there even was lot of adult themes or adult tone in the game ^^; And the suggestive themes in the books.. I have to say I missed those completely
<shrug> Not sure what to say there. I think also it's the fact that you can kill civilians in a certain mode that affected the rating. The suggestive themes section becomes extremely goofy sometimes. I had a pretty popular post last year making fun of the ESRB description of both ME2 and DA:I. With great respect. 
That's part of the reason why this debate is interesting to me. What is over-the-top, what's considered "too much" or "not enough" varies a lot between person-to-person.
One last sets of comparisons. This is what the ESRB said about ME2 and ME3. The information on ME1 is actually pretty sparse. I had to edit the ESRB summaries so it didn't break the ToS for the BW forums regarding the language filter. The ESRB summaries didn't have enough asterisks. This isn't worth possibly getting into trouble over, so I've left the first letter only.
Content Descriptors: Blood, Drug Reference, Sexual Content, Strong Language, ViolenceRating Summary:
In this action role-playing game, players' objective is to defeat an alien enemy that is silently abducting entire human colonies. Players must assemble a team of henchmen, command a space ship, and travel to distant planets across a futuristic galaxy. At its core, the game involves a combination of conversation/interaction with characters, and ground-based (i.e., 'run-and-gun') space battle: Players use assault rifles, submachine guns, shotguns, and pistols to kill humans, robots, and aliens in the frenetic third-person firefights. Some enemies emit large splashes of blood when shot (particularly with 'head shots'); several enemies lie stagnant in pools of blood—factors for the Mature rating. Henchmen are able to freeze and shatter enemies, engage in melee attacks, set robots on fire, and use telekinesis to disable aliens. A handful of cutscenes depict dramatic interrogations in which human characters are threatened, punched, kicked, and shot (in the leg) by alien creatures. The game contains themes of illicit drug use, addiction, and trafficking—often focal points to the branching storylines; for example, 'Morinth likes dancing while on a drug called Hallex,' 'Narcotics flooded my veins when I attacked,' and 'The asari injecting so many drugs into me was terrifying.' During the course of the game, players may enter a bar where alien pole dancing exists (choreography highlighted on big-screen monitors) or hear suggestive comments such as 'krogan sexual deviants enjoy salarian flexibility' and 'if this is just about sex, maybe you should just f'****** say so.' [Italics added] Players can also choose to have 'romantic encounters' with the alien/human henchmen characters; this involves watching a guided cutscene in which two characters flirt, kiss, and/or embrace: clothed alien/human characters may prop a partner on top of a space console, clear away the clutter from a bed-slab, unzip a future-blouse, or just talk it out. Though an alien/human may gyrate her hips while on top (fleeting—one-to-two seconds), actual sex is never depicted—the camera cuts away to space furniture and ceilings.
http://www.esrb.org/...e=Mass Effect 2
Content Descriptors: Blood, Partial Nudity, Sexual Content, Strong Language, Violence
- Includes online features that may expose players to unrated user-generated content (Windows PC, Xbox 360, PlayStation 3, Wii U)
Rating Summary: This is an action role-playing game in which players assume the role of a space commander attempting to save humanity from a galaxy-wide threat. As players interact with myriad characters (e.g., developing alliances and relationships), they use machine guns, shotguns, assault rifles, and futuristic weapons to kill humans and alien creatures in frenetic combat. Enemies sometimes emit splashes of blood when hit; some sequences depict bloodstained characters or environments. Cutscenes depict other instances of violence: an alien shooting herself in the head with a pistol; a character getting impaled by a creature's claws. As the game progresses, the storyline sometimes references sexual material (e.g., “When this is over, I'm getting laid” and “Were oil and lubricants involved? Was there moaning?”). Players can also initiate brief romantic encounters between characters: dialogue choices are made, leading to kissing and caressing on a bed—sexual activity is implied. In one of these sequences, an alien character's buttocks and breasts are briefly depicted. The words “f***,” “s***,” and “a******” can be heard in dialogue.
http://www.esrb.org/...e=Mass Effect 3
Nudity, sex, profanity, and excessive violence seem to be sore spots with a segment of this fanbase for a number of different reasons. What better way to restrain these things, and open up new revenue opportunities, than to aim for a T rating as a benchmark for any and all content? BioWare's already gone back in that direction with Star Wars: The Old Republic, after all.
Would you be bothered by this? Why or why not? Do the things you enjoy about Mass Effect demand a MATURE rating?
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Yes, since I never played a game with M before.
But, I would never play a GTA type game.... absolutely rubbish in my eyes, pandering to the criminal element and overly brutal sex scenes and brutal violent acts.... all unnecessary in a game (IMO).
Unfortunately, M for ME:A will never happen. Key word, here, is Sales. The wider the target market, the higher the potential sale of the game. M, by definition, restricts the gaming audience. A "no-no" from EA's eyes, I'm sure.
Too Bad, really. Nudity, sex and some profanity at the right moments would be a welcomed distraction from so many blah games. Though, I suspect that ME:A will retain its core Mass Effect ingredients of story, friendship, bonding, diluted romance and lots of combat level designs with tough enemies. Maybe the Creative Director will insist on humorous side quests or character interaction. Especially so, with a new alien species, since we expect cultural differences where certain phrases or actions at inopportune times may be embarrassing for both human and alien.
Mass Effect be pandering to them spacefaring types.
... actually, looking at the ratings a little closer; I think the devs are potentially screwed unless they go for an 'M' rating just because there's so much variance in what lower ratings actually mean; ignoring the lowest age ratings we've got:
BBFC: 12, 15, 18
PEGI: 12, 16, 18
ESRB: T (13+), M (17+)
The ESRB has no real middle-ground rating; that 15/16 block and brings mature in at 17... so, in essence an ESRB 'M' is actually closer to PEGI 16 than ESRB 'T' is... so what I'd consider a "teen-suitable" game (that 15/16 bracket) is, for ESRB ratings closer to 'M'.
At least if they aim MEA squrely at an 18+ audience they don't have to worry about the variance involved in lower ratings... if the game's suitable for a 13 year old, is it suitable for a 12 year old? Should it be? Would it be:
ESRB 'T' / PEGI '12'
ESRB 'T' / PEGI '16'
ESRB 'M' / PEGI '16'
ESRB 'M' / PEGI '18'
... at that point in time I'd be tempted to say "screw the ratings", make the game and let the chips fall where they may.
SW:tOR does a ton of choices like that. As well as loads and loads of torture and other messed up stuff.
Though really I don't understand the rating system. There's no way SW:tOR should be T while ME1 is M, if anything it should be the other way around.
... actually, looking at the ratings a little closer; I think the devs are potentially screwed unless they go for an 'M' rating just because there's so much variance in what lower ratings actually mean; ignoring the lowest age ratings we've got:
BBFC: 12, 15, 18
PEGI: 12, 16, 18
ESRB: T (13+), M (17+)
The ESRB has no real middle-ground rating; that 15/16 block and brings mature in at 17... so, in essence an ESRB 'M' is actually closer to PEGI 16 than than ESRB 'T' is... so what I'd consider a "teen" game (that 15/16 bracket) is, for ESRB ratings closer to 'M'.
At least if they aim MEA squrely at an 18+ audience they don't have to worry about the variance involved in lower ratings... if the game's suitable for a 13 year old, is it suitable for a 12 year old? Should it be? Would it be:
ESRB 'T' / PEGI '12'
ESRB 'T' / PEGI '16'
ESRB 'M' / PEGI '16'
ESRB 'M' / PEGI '18'
... at that point in time I'd be tempted to say "screw the ratings", make the game and let the chips fall where they may.
Its not really relevant to Mass Effect ( I sincerely doubt I will see similar levels of crude violence as in manhunt but regardless), the AO rating the ESRB have is baked into 18+ in Europe, we have no separate rating for games like that.
@Chealac The rating system is why some games aren't banned though most of the time, save the AO games via blackballing (which is stupid, but another rant for another day) and depending upon your countries laws of course (Oz has some very interesting standards, for example. Sera and IB had to be edited to be more covered up for Japan.)
I remember when Mortal Kombat first came out and the entire hooplah surrounding it. I'm not sure about the PEGI, but I know that the ESRB came in existence because of that. People lost their frigging minds over the blood and the finishing moves. For the record, my mom knew about the game, knew that we were playing it, and knew that at the ages of 8 and 10 my brother and I could handle it. They kept some R-rated material from us (no Fatal Attraction) but they knew that we knew the differences between a video game and reality. However, some parents groups were calling for the game to be banned, and instead a rating system came about so parents could figure out at a glance if a game was within the age range for their kids.
Of course this doesn't stop idiotic parents from buying their kids games like Hitman and GTA, but a parent had easy access to tools to educate themselves. This was a compromise to avoid censorship. It's the same reason why the rating system for movies came about, and the same with the rating system for music. This way things couldn't just be banned at a whim because some folks were offended.
Yeah, whereas I know Dreamgazer is not being serious in this request, I have to say honestly BW is timid and skittish enough.
Dream, you're awesome, but I ain't buyin' it. You knew exactly what you were doing. I think it's turned into an interesting read though, and it's really a conversation worth having. 
"Gyrate their hips fleetingly" and "future blouse" is still my favorite parts of that summary.
I really wonder why there's a need to specify that people are unzipping their 'future blouse' and looking at 'space furniture'? Does that make it sound more sci-fi? 
As far as I remember, ME1 was rated '12+' in the UK (I think ME2 was '16+'). So having a lower rating wouldn't necessarily limit/hinder the content they put in. That said, I'd prefer a higher rating, with complete freedom to include whatever they feel needs to be in the game.
Honestly, what would be the point? Games get enough censorship as is. You don't hear people complaining about the movies out there, and if they do, it doesn't matter. I really can't understand why the gaming industry gets so much abuse from people and companies give into that garbage. People are too busy carrying a chip on their shoulder to get a life and worry about stuff that really matters. You'd think gaming was forced on people and they had to endure it.
There are so many other games touchy people can play that have nothing but sunshine, rainbows and pretty colors with cutesy music in the background. Have at it and leave the adults alone.
I really wonder why there's a need to specify that people are unzipping their 'future blouse' and looking at 'space furniture'? Does that make it sound more sci-fi?
As far as I remember, ME1 was rated '12+' in the UK (I think ME2 was '16+'). So having a lower rating wouldn't necessarily limit/hinder the content they put in. That said, I'd prefer a higher rating, with complete freedom to include whatever they feel needs to be in the game.
This was my exact comment to that right after the DA:I ESRB summary came out. Someone posted the ME2 description and this was all that was running through my mind.
Come my dear, let us remove your future-blouse and lay upon my bed-slab while we gyrate our hips fleetingly. With great respect.
Edit: Nope, ME1 was also rated 18+. All the ME games were rated the same by both ratings boards.
I prefer graphic violence with the occasional precision F bomb strike.
Dream, you're awesome, but I ain't buyin' it. You knew exactly what you were doing. I think it's turned into an interesting read though, and it's really a conversation worth having.
Request for the ratings change, not the discussion. Though the responsibility to start this topic really was thrust upon me, Natashina. Really was.
I had a feeling this might turn into an actual discussion about whether the rating was necessary to preserving Mass Effect's style of content.
I was reading in the other thread yesterday, and yes, truly this was such a hardship thrust upon you.
Glad to see that this thread is going. In all sincerity, thanks for starting it.
@Chealac The rating system is why some games aren't banned though, save the AO games via blackballing (which is stupid, but another rant for another day.) I remember when Mortal Kombat first came out and the entire hooplah surrounding it. I'm not sure about the PEGI, but I know that the ESRB came in existence because of that. People lost their frigging minds over the blood and the finishing moves. For the record, my mom knew about the game, knew that we were playing it, and knew that at the ages of 8 and 10 my brother and I could handle it. Some parents groups were calling for the game to be banned, and instead a rating system came about so parents could figure out at a glance if a game was within the age range for their kids.
Of course this doesn't stop idiotic parents from buying their kids games like Hitman and GTA, but a parent had easy access to tools to educate themselves. This was a compromise to avoid banned things. It's the same reason why the rating system for movies came about, and the same with the rating system for music. This way things couldn't just be banned at a whim because some folks were offended.
I remember Mortal Mondays!
If I could play Mortal Kombat in the 4th grade when it came out, anybody will continue to get their hands on anything (and if this forum is anything to go by, age requirements don't appear to be an impediment for plenty of players).
I'm not at all worried about a M rated game hurting their bottom line, and honestly, in today's climate, making a move like this would reflect badly on them. I'm not really one for gratuitous spectacle, but I'd be disappointed if they sanitized their games further (we get enough of the heavy stuff through implication and allusion as is - which isn't bad, necessarily, but...). You can obviously deal with darker content and themes with a T rating - but if you have more freedom to show the stuff you're dealing with, it's typically going to be more effective.
Besides, profanity is the spice of life. To anyone that disagrees - horse feathers to you.
Alright, so, the nudity and sex.
Would ME's fanbase be alright with moving to carefully worded innuendos and fades to black instead of progressing towards Inquisition's more candid romances?
I have zero problems with fade-to-black. DA2 was all fade-to-black, and I thought it worked well. My favorite ME romance was Garrus, and he's fade-to-black too. The toplessness in DA:I, and the sideboob in the ME games didn't phase me one way or the other, but I could live without it. The post-coital conversations were more interesting most of the time in DA:I than the actual lead up to the sex.
The carefully worded innuendos are fun, but writers (even good ones) can get carried away with it far too quickly. That's just me though.
Nudity, sex, profanity, and excessive violence seem to be sore spots with a segment of this fanbase for a number of different reasons. What better way to restrain these things, and open up new revenue opportunities, than to aim for a T rating as a benchmark for any and all content? BioWare's already gone back in that direction with Star Wars: The Old Republic, after all.
Would you be bothered by this? Why or why not? Do the things you enjoy about Mass Effect demand a MATURE rating?
That bolded part is funny. A mature rating doesn't stop kids from being able to buy the game.
As for the wider issue, I'd like any move that gets rid of sexual scenes. I don't think there's a developer in existence who has been able to animate a love scene without it looking like two awkward marionettes being shoved at each other.
@Chealac The rating system is why some games aren't banned though most of the time, save the AO games via blackballing (which is stupid, but another rant for another day) and depending upon your countries laws of course (Oz has some very interesting standards, for example.)
....
Of course this doesn't stop idiotic parents from buying their kids games like Hitman and GTA, but a parent had easy access to tools to educate themselves. This was a compromise to avoid censorship. It's the same reason why the rating system for movies came about, and the same with the rating system for music. This way things couldn't just be banned at a whim because some folks were offended.
The difference, in the UK though, is that with movies there's the BBFC rating. The BBFC are a legal body solely tasked with rating film (they did have games too but that's recently been replaced with PEGI to harmonise games ratings across Europe) and technically, in theory, the BBFC actually have teeth - they could close down stores that sell games/movies to people not old enough to buy them... even if it's the parents buying them if the kids are present and the retailer "knows" the game is for the kid.
PEGI is just an industry body - a code of practice - to attempt to sidestep the issue, it has no legal grounding as such.
Weirdly I'm not against the ratings system itself, probably because, for as long as I've been alive there's been a ratings system on movies and I don't see how games are really much different - especially with the way graphics have moved on (though I'd imagine it would be much harder for the censors to accurately rate say 200 hours of Witcher 3 content + easter eggs as opposed to 2 hours of a movie).
The problem I've now got is that the ESRB rating has no middle ground, you've got 13+ or 17+ - I'd sort of assumed ESRB 'T' was roughly equivalent to BBFC 15 or PEGI 16 ... and it really isn't; it's closer to BBFC/PEGI 12.
I'm not so sure that the Mass Effect series would survive a 12 sticker ... 15/16, yeah, no problems ... but 12/13?
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