25 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

That line the Warden can say to Wynne.

I don't know if it was intentional or not, but I love how well it ties with DA2's story.

[andy6915]

Why? Anders? You mean the guy who sees templars as less than people, approves of selling Fenris back to his slaving master, blows up buildings and kills dozens or even hundreds of innocent people, starts a demon war in the streets on purpose, attempts to kill innocent mages who dare to call him a demon when he's speaking in a demonic voice and saying he's going to burn everyone with justice? Yeah, lots of humanity left in that person .

[Qun00]

Heh.

Yep, I'm aware of that. But rivalry!Anders doesn't lose his entire being to Justice and technically still could find redemption.

[Catche Jagger]

Heh.

Yep, I'm aware of that. But rivalry!Anders doesn't lose his entire being to Justice and technically still could find redemption.

 

Well actually, at the end of that rivalry arc, he claims that he can't control Vengeance (cause, you know, it still blows up the chantry) and asks you to kill him. As Anders' writer said "you can't save him" (or at least, I'm pretty sure she said that.) Pertty depressing, honestly.

[sylvanaerie]

Why? Anders? You mean the guy who sees templars as less than people, approves of selling Fenris back to his slaving master, blows up buildings and kills dozens or even hundreds of innocent people, starts a demon war in the streets on purpose, attempts to kill innocent mages who dare to call him a demon when he's speaking in a demonic voice and saying he's going to burn everyone with justice? Yeah, lots of humanity left in that person .

 

I think that's actually the point of his character arc. Some people would interpret him as still human, would actually join his campaign and happily blow up every priest and templar in Thedas.  Others would see the irony of his situation compared to Wynne's and realize he's lost his humanity to Vengeance.  I guess it depends on how his actions are interpreted.

 

In the one where he tries to murder the mage child, you can appeal to his humanity and turn him from that action, and he will even attempt to leave, trying to protect Hawke from himself (Anders), proving that there is still Anders under all that hate/rage.

 

Heh.

Yep, I'm aware of that. But rivalry!Anders doesn't lose his entire being to Justice and technically still could find redemption.

 

Actually, I believe it's "friended" Anders who doesn't lose himself to Justice entirely and can find redemption, although I will admit, I am not as familiar with friended Anders as I am with rivaled.  That's what I've been told anyway.  I didn't like him well enough to max out his friendship very often.  I disliked his characterization on that path (personality wise).  I suppose it's possible for redemption on rivaled as well, but that poor soul begs you to end his life before 'he loses himself completely' to the demon inside him, implying he's losing the battle for his humanity on that path.  

 

I prefer rivaled to friended as his character arc is much more interesting and you can actually tell him "I forgive you" if you complete his story arc on this path. 

[Catche Jagger]

 

Actually, I believe it's "friended" Anders who doesn't lose himself to Justice entirely and can find redemption, although I will admit, I am not as familiar with friended Anders as I am with rivaled.  That's what I've been told anyway.  I didn't like him well enough to max out his friendship very often.  I disliked his characterization on that path (personality wise).  I suppose it's possible for redemption on rivaled as well, but that poor soul begs you to end his life before 'he loses himself completely' to the demon inside him, implying he's losing the battle for his humanity on that path.  

 

I prefer rivaled to friended as his character arc is much more interesting and you can actually tell him "I forgive you" if you complete his story arc on this path. 

 

Nope. You've been told wrong. Friendship!Anders does lose himself to Vengeance ("Justice and I are one now!").  It's in the rivalry path that he resists the pull of Vengeance and maintains his individuality. It's likely that whoever told you that friendship!Anders was the more redeemable one disliked the idea that Vengeance was actually an unhealthy and corrupting influence on Anders and instead believe that it actually helps Anders to achieve his "true goals."

[sylvanaerie]

Nope. You've been told wrong. Friendship!Anders does lose himself to Vengeance ("Justice and I are one now!").  It's in the rivalry path that he resists the pull of Vengeance and maintains his individuality. It's likely that whoever told you that friendship!Anders was the more redeemable one disliked the idea that Vengeance was actually an unhealthy and corrupting influence on Anders and instead believe that it actually helps Anders to achieve his "true goals."

 

I guess he's lost on both paths then, because he definitely doesn't maintain his individuality on rivaled.  He actually begs you to end his life on rivalry path.  "Kill me now before there is nothing of me left."  Whereas with friended, he actually wanted to die to 'be a martyr for the cause'.  Guess he just has a death wish either way.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

Some people just don't understand that Anders is the protagonist of the story arc, and the only truly heroic character involved in pushing the greater plot along.  For my part, I'd exterminate every Templar, Sister, Brother, and worshiper of Andraste I could find; burn every Chantry to the ground, destroy every relic and written record of the Chant, and purge all of Thedas in cleansing fire so that Reason and Science became the new belief of the surviving people. 

[DebatableBubble]

You'd be just as bad as that which you so despise. Maybe even worse.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

Maybe, but I'd be happy!  :-)

 

And you know the world would be better off for the change; no more unprovable, unknowable Maker to blame things on.  I'll use a quote that I feel sums the reasoning of morality versus ethics perfectly:
 

The glory of life surmounts the fear of death. Good Christian's fear Hellfire, so to avoid it they are kind to their fellow man. Good pagans do not have this fear, so they can be who they are. Good or ill, as their nature dictates. We have no fear of God, so we are accountable to no one but each other.

Just replace the word Christian with Chantry-members, pagan with apostate, and God with The Maker and it fits perfectly into Thedas.

[DebatableBubble]

As an atheist, I thank you for helping me realize how much of an ass I can be because right now it's as if I'm staring into a mirror. 

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

You're very welcome!

 

Now then, about that burning and purging, you in? 

[DebatableBubble]

You're very welcome!
 
Now then, about that burning and purging, you in? 

You have some gall to think that we can just be friends after what you said.




.....will we be burning and purging the Dalish, too?

[Catche Jagger]

Some people just don't understand that Anders is the protagonist of the story arc, and the only truly heroic character involved in pushing the greater plot along. For my part, I'd exterminate every Templar, Sister, Brother, and worshiper of Andraste I could find; burn every Chantry to the ground, destroy every relic and written record of the Chant, and purge all of Thedas in cleansing fire so that Reason and Science became the new belief of the surviving people.

Don't forget all the random civilians that happened to be inside praying or who were crushed by the debris shot out from the explosion. They deserved to die too! Purge everyone who isn't like you!

[sylvanaerie]

I think this quote kind of fits the mood of this thread...

 

"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."

[Magdalena11]

Very suitable quote.  Do you remember where it's from?  It sums it up so well.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

You have some gall to think that we can just be friends after what you said.


.....will we be burning and purging the Dalish, too?

ABSOLUTELY!  I despise those pointy-eared self-righteous whiners!  They started most of the woes of Thedas, BURN THEM!!!  

 

 

Very suitable quote.  Do you remember where it's from?  It sums it up so well.

 

That's Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche, the German philosopher, from his work Beyond Good and Evil, Aphorism 146.

 

It's often misused and taken out of context though, in that his intent during that period of his writing he was attacking traditional views of morality, particularly the grand metaphysical faiths of religion.  Nietzsche was establishing the 'grey areas' that exist beyond good and evil, and how similar one is to the other.  Most people today try and use the quote in the context that good should not 'fall' into evil in the pursuit of good, whereas Nietzsche was really saying that both stem from the same basic impulses.

[Qun00]

I guess he's lost on both paths then, because he definitely doesn't maintain his individuality on rivaled.  He actually begs you to end his life on rivalry path.  "Kill me now before there is nothing of me left."  Whereas with friended, he actually wanted to die to 'be a martyr for the cause'.  Guess he just has a death wish either way.

That is the difference.

In the friendship path there is *nothing* left of Anders at that point.

[dragonflight288]

I guess he's lost on both paths then, because he definitely doesn't maintain his individuality on rivaled.  He actually begs you to end his life on rivalry path.  "Kill me now before there is nothing of me left."  Whereas with friended, he actually wanted to die to 'be a martyr for the cause'.  Guess he just has a death wish either way.

 

It's been awhile since I played, but there is a bit of dialogue I think fits, and he has it with Isabella.

 

Essentially she asks him if he gets the war he wants and mages get justice but a lot of innocent people get caught in the crossfire, don't they deserve justice as well, and when he responds with affirmative she goes on and says that it creates a vicious cycle of bloodshed where everyone deserves justice and it ultimately condemns everyone.

 

It makes me think about how, while justice is essential to any society, there is always a time and place for mercy. Mercy cannot rob justice, but at times it's more called for. 

 

On the friendship path, he is at peace with himself and Justice/Vengeance, and fully commits, but he also fully expect justice for his actions and accepts his own execution. He doesn't lose himself to Vengeance's control, but he agrees with him.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

On the friendship path, he is at peace with himself and Justice/Vengeance, and fully commits, but he also fully expect justice for his actions and accepts his own execution. He doesn't lose himself to Vengeance's control, but he agrees with him.

Exactly!   I don't know why people try to stain the ending with a lot of their own bull-hookie, but it's pretty much stated in the dialogue and evident in the portrayal of the scene that Anders is content and not conflicted at all.  It's a kind of Ghandi-like scene in a way.  He's still Anders, he's just an Anders that has made a personal choice and for once is ready to accept responsibility for it and not run away.   Though the impact of that scene is somewhat lost if you're a friendship-mancer and tell him to run away with you and you'll both live life together on the run!   LOL!

[Qun00]

It's been awhile since I played, but there is a bit of dialogue I think fits, and he has it with Isabella.

Essentially she asks him if he gets the war he wants and mages get justice but a lot of innocent people get caught in the crossfire, don't they deserve justice as well, and when he responds with affirmative she goes on and says that it creates a vicious cycle of bloodshed where everyone deserves justice and it ultimately condemns everyone.

It makes me think about how, while justice is essential to any society, there is always a time and place for mercy. Mercy cannot rob justice, but at times it's more called for.

On the friendship path, he is at peace with himself and Justice/Vengeance, and fully commits, but he also fully expect justice for his actions and accepts his own execution. He doesn't lose himself to Vengeance's control, but he agrees with him.

Huh... Isabela actually says something that insightful? So there is more to her than thievery and sex after all.

Exactly! I don't know why people try to stain the ending with a lot of their own bull-hookie, but it's pretty much stated in the dialogue and evident in the portrayal of the scene that Anders is content and not conflicted at all. It's a kind of Ghandi-like scene in a way. He's still Anders, he's just an Anders that has made a personal choice and for once is ready to accept responsibility for it and not run away. Though the impact of that scene is somewhat lost if you're a friendship-mancer and tell him to run away with you and you'll both live life together on the run! LOL!

Anders says more than that. They have merged and become a single being, indistinguishable from one another.

[dragonflight288]

 

 

Huh... Isabela actually says something that insightful? So there is more to her than thievery and sex after all.

 

Go to 5:10 A couple other banters also are almost profound, like her saying our mistakes make us who we are.

 

[Sah291]

Exactly!   I don't know why people try to stain the ending with a lot of their own bull-hookie, but it's pretty much stated in the dialogue and evident in the portrayal of the scene that Anders is content and not conflicted at all.  It's a kind of Ghandi-like scene in a way.  He's still Anders, he's just an Anders that has made a personal choice and for once is ready to accept responsibility for it and not run away.   Though the impact of that scene is somewhat lost if you're a friendship-mancer and tell him to run away with you and you'll both live life together on the run!   LOL!

Depends how you look at it I guess, it can be taken both ways. Maybe dying is the easy way out, but if you spare him he has to live with his actions, and commit to fighting the templars and defending the Mages...something he was too scared to do before, after the incident with Ella. Back in Awakening, Anders is the only character who actually gives approval if you leave him behind in the final battle. He was a pretty big coward then, so him joining the final fight is a big deal... I can never just let him off the hook for that reason...

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

Depends how you look at it I guess, it can be taken both ways. Maybe dying is the easy way out, but if you spare him he has to live with his actions, and commit to fighting the templars and defending the Mages...something he was too scared to do before, after the incident with Ella. Back in Awakening, Anders is the only character who actually gives approval if you leave him behind in the final battle. He was a pretty big coward then, so him joining the final fight is a big deal... I can never just let him off the hook for that reason...

Exactly, that part is also big for his personal growth, because in my Friendship-Mancer playthroughs, I spared him and he actually wants to help.  I've done it two ways, and the wiki summary actually describes it better than my own words.

 

 

• If Hawke supports the mages then tells Anders to leave, he is later encountered again inside the Gallows, wanting to be a part of the battle. If his aid is accepted, he rejoins the party. If it is rejected, he wishes Hawke victory and leaves permanently.
• If Hawke asks Anders to defend the mages, he is surprised by Hawke allowing him to stay in addition to his life, but eagerly agrees to fight the templars; however, he admits that it is worse than he thought it would be. If he is in a romance with Hawke, he offers Hawke to come on the run with him as a fugitive after the final battle.

 

 As you can see, even if you tell Anders to leave, he comes back and asks to help defend the mages.  That's a big step from the more cowardly Anders from Awakening's final battle.  I usually just flat out ask him to defend the mages when I spare him though, and he is always happy to do so.